How do your religious beliefs impact your views on medicine if at all?

[Retsage]

But fear of consequence is not morality. The most immoral human beings alive can follow the law because they want to avoid jail-time, but that does not make them any more moral. Morality is the question of what you would do without the worry of punishment hanging over your head.


ANF: Sociopaths can only kill by their own hands? Hilarious. I guess Pol Pot was a fine, upstanding, moral character! And nobody said all mass-murderers were sociopaths, I said serial killers. Broadly speaking, I'd posit that mass murderers fall into two categories - those easily brainwashed in us versus them doctrine and sociopaths. That being said, you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that OBL is not a sociopath (though he apparently could only kill a few people by his own hands).

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[goldenwest]

Im more scared of you people than I am of a sociopath.

Let's keep it civil, please. Refrain from using phrases like "you people". I do agree with you though that the educated community has a much stronger influence on society and with it more responsibility for well thought-out rationality.

 

[Flushot]

But fear of consequence is not morality. The most immoral human beings alive can follow the law because they want to avoid jail-time, but that does not make them any more moral. Morality is the question of what you would do without the worry of punishment hanging over your head.

Logic can dictate consequence and consequence can be used for morality. Think of the traditional social contract. We don't kill because we don't want to be killed. Does morality constantly imply that we don't kill because we think of the anguish that others feel? It probably does, but that's not the only reason.

I'm not trying to discredit empathy as a factor for morality, but rather, I am trying to combine how you and Heather feel about it. It seems that both stances are fairly absolute and in practicality, I wouldn't imagine the general public to think in those terms.

 

[Retsage]

You've got your causation backwards. Consequence is based on morality, it is not the cause of morality. The social contract you describe is, above all, maintained on the idea that you and I are both people who deserve to live. This is based on empathy.

Regardless, this discussion has widely diverged. Look into the classification of psychopathy and you'll see it's well-established that sociopaths lack morality.

 

[Flushot]

Deserving to live? Based on empathy alone or the mere fact that we are already alive? What was done to deserve this life or empathy?

I didn't say that consequence was morality, but rather morality has a use for it. Again, I'm trying to challenge your claim that empathy is the only morality.

 

[ANF1986]

But fear of consequence is not morality. The most immoral human beings alive can follow the law because they want to avoid jail-time, but that does not make them any more moral. Morality is the question of what you would do without the worry of punishment hanging over your head.


ANF: Sociopaths can only kill by their own hands? Hilarious. I guess Pol Pot was a fine, upstanding, moral character! And nobody said all mass-murderers were sociopaths, I said serial killers. Broadly speaking, I'd posit that mass murderers fall into two categories - those easily brainwashed in us versus them doctrine and sociopaths. That being said, you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that OBL is not a sociopath (though he apparently could only kill a few people by his own hands).

I either poorly phrased what I meant, or you took my words quite out of context. I was trying to point out that while a single human being as a sociopath in society (without political power) can be dangerous to a small number of human beings, a large consensus of people who believe in something like eugenics can be ten times as devastating to human life. However, given the instances where a sociopathic person gains a position of power then I can see what you are saying.

However if we just compare the ability of one sociopathic person to take human life vs. the ability for a mob mentality to have a more deleterious effect, I think we can see which one is obviously more dangerous.

 

[Retsage]

But that's the thing, Flu. I believe you deserve to live because I can understand that you are a living, breathing human being who feels and can feel just like myself. This is, at the very core of it, something that psychopaths seemingly lack.

ANF, of course the mob is more dangerous than the man. But the mob is only dangerous based on the man directing them. And, more often than not, the man directing the mob to do awful things lacks the soul to care. Stalin didn't starve the Ukrainians on his own, but he surely directed those who did.

 

[Flushot]

Well, psychopaths probably lack logic and reason, which is why they don't get very far in their goals.

I can understand that sort of inherent empathy of being alive. That still doesn't convince me of a singular factor of morality. Sure, you have empathy for another human being. That's great, but how are you going to act in the future? Does merely sharing this understanding of being alive equate to a good outcome?

I can believe that murderers understand what is to be alive despite doing what they do. I can understand a soldier's empathy to another soldier until the moment they have to shoot them down. Empathy can go either way. If we're talking about the entire morality of all of humanity, there must be more to it.

EDIT - After some reading, I'm glad about this discussion Retsage. I never thought it in the way you have, especially since you do have convincing examples.

 

[pianola]

My religious training consisted primarily of a mandate to "be good" from various old folks in my community.

I guess maybe it'll have an effect .

 

[primadonna22274]

I take care of them--and have, many times. I sew up their lacs. I treat the overdose if possible. (Acetaminophen and tricyclic ODs are particularly bad if you get them too late.) I try to ease their suffering. I just will not deliberately hasten their deaths.

Primadonna, if its the patient's choice like you state but you won't participate, what would you do if you can across said patient with a self-inflicted gun shot, stab wound, overdose, etc? The medications used in Oregon and all the cases have gone relatively well, few incidents of adverse reactions (vomiting, etc) from the barbiturates.

 

[BlackDr2b]

I love Jesus Christ with all of me! I can't wait to become the physician that he has called me to be. He said in His word that we have the power to heal as long as we believe. I look forward to letting Him use me to heal others! God bless!

 

[RySerr21]

Yes, I believe God has the ability to intervene in daily lives if He so chooses. Whether he does or not is another question; I personally think that at times He does bless me and give me strength when I otherwise wouldn't have it.

I believe He has been involved in our history as well-it would be hard to believe otherwise, as a Christian, otherwise He wouldn't have sent Jesus

As for whether He determines our future... I'm going to say a decisive "I don't know." I think He knows what the future holds, but whether he is actively determining every aspect of what will happen in the future is not something I would claim to know.

Okay, you brought up Hitler and the Nazis in an earlier post.....so in your opinion, God knew about the Holocaust, had the power to do something about it, but chose to let 6 million+ Jews die anyway?? what is that about?? And for the Jews that did survive, you think that God "chose" them over others? What made them so special as to be chosen by God to survive?

I love Jesus Christ with all of me! I can't wait to become the physician that he has called me to be. He said in His word that we have the power to heal as long as we believe. I look forward to letting Him use me to heal others! God bless!

I was waiting for you to chime in, as you are openly enthusiastic about your religion and relationship with jesus christ. I know this is a really long thread, but there have been some interesting questions posed throughout and i'd be curious to hear your opinion!

 

[BlackDr2b]

I was waiting for you to chime in, as you are openly enthusiastic about your religion and relationship with jesus christ. I know this is a really long thread, but there have been some interesting questions posed throughout and i'd be curious to hear your opinion!

Wassup Ryserr! When I saw your post I started laughing to myself because I knew you had replied to mine. How are you doing these days?

 

[teddybear]

I love Jesus Christ with all of me! I can't wait to become the physician that he has called me to be. He said in His word that we have the power to heal as long as we believe. I look forward to letting Him use me to heal others! God bless!

God bless you brother.

 

[primadonna22274]

For the record, I have also provided lots of compassionate and competent post-abortion care to many women. This is part of my mission as a healer with a God-given gift. I won't perform their abortions though, and it's not a procedure I ever desire to learn or witness. Fortunately since I pretty much hate ob/gyn and would never choose it as a specialty I am not likely to have to learn it.

Wanted to respond to Chemdude's posit that God would "never allow" human cloning. Here's where the Catholic in me and the Muslim in him (I assume Chemdude's a him) fundamentally disagree on faith: I believe that God gave us free will, and as human beings we have the freedom to make good and bad choices. Hitler made bad choices. God did not "prevent" him from making those choices, because God does not intervene that way. God COULD intervene that way but for the most part chooses not to. I'm very much afraid that we WILL see human cloning in our lifetimes; probably in our generation; and I call it for what it very clearly is, EVIL. But God as I know Him will not prevent us from pursuing the limits of our scientific abilities because He has imbued us with the curiosity and intellect to figure it all out, for good or for evil.

Theology doctrine lesson over. Back to the debate.

 

[primadonna22274]

You've got guts. I admire that. God bless you too.

I love Jesus Christ with all of me! I can't wait to become the physician that he has called me to be. He said in His word that we have the power to heal as long as we believe. I look forward to letting Him use me to heal others! God bless!

 

[Flushot]

Is there a debate still going? We have a bunch of random topics that could each easily sustain a lengthy thread, so pick your poison. Retsage logged off so until s/he gets back, I guess I'll hop on whatever ya'll want to talk about.

 

[135892]

I love Jesus Christ with all of me! I can't wait to become the physician that he has called me to be. He said in His word that we have the power to heal as long as we believe. I look forward to letting Him use me to heal others! God bless!

Out of curiosity, how did Jesus Christ let you know that he has "called" you to be a physician?

 

[Bacchus]

I take care of them--and have, many times. I sew up their lacs. I treat the overdose if possible. (Acetaminophen and tricyclic ODs are particularly bad if you get them too late.) I try to ease their suffering. I just will not deliberately hasten their deaths.

So as long as you didn't participate, if its a successful or botched severe suicide success/attempt its ok? It'd be better for people to do it this way than use a more humane and comfortable means that a doctor prescribes?

 

[HeatherMD]

Sorry I missed this guys, had to put winter tires on the car.

So.. shall we teach elementary students that 2 + 2 = 5? After all, maintaining contradictions is logical. There's no reason not to do it. Nothing should have a wrong answer, all answers should be right because it's all about making someone feel good. We should exercise empathy above reason. Always put a person's feelings before truth. We wouldn't want a student to feel incorrect or stupid for answering anything but 4, so we must let 5 be the right answer too. And 6 and 9 and 15972. Everything should be right, because human emotion is at stake here, not truth, not reality.

Empathy, that's what really matters. Right?

 

[GoSpursGo]

Okay, you brought up Hitler and the Nazis in an earlier post.....so in your opinion, God knew about the Holocaust, had the power to do something about it, but chose to let 6 million+ Jews die anyway?? what is that about?? And for the Jews that did survive, you think that God "chose" them over others? What made them so special as to be chosen by God to survive?

Um, no I didn't bring them up? I think that may've been Chemdude. Regardless, my stance is pretty much in line with primadonna:

I believe that God gave us free will, and as human beings we have the freedom to make good and bad choices. Hitler made bad choices. God did not "prevent" him from making those choices, because God does not intervene that way. God COULD intervene that way but for the most part chooses not to. I'm very much afraid that we WILL see human cloning in our lifetimes; probably in our generation; and I call it for what it very clearly is, EVIL. But God as I know Him will not prevent us from pursuing the limits of our scientific abilities because He has imbued us with the curiosity and intellect to figure it all out, for good or for evil.

Also, God bless you BlackDr2b!

 

[Retsage]

Sorry I missed this guys, had to put winter tires on the car.

So.. shall we teach elementary students that 2 + 2 = 5? After all, maintaining contradictions is logical. There's no reason not to do it. Nothing should have a wrong answer, all answers should be right because it's all about making someone feel good. We should exercise empathy above reason. Always put a person's feelings before truth. We wouldn't want a student to feel incorrect or stupid for answering anything but 4, so we must let 5 be the right answer too. And 6 and 9 and 15972. Everything should be right, because human emotion is at stake here, not truth, not reality.

Empathy, that's what really matters. Right?

Last I checked, science and mathematics do not equate to morality. There is no such thing as morality in objective mathematics. This was a silly post, completely tangential (sparing people's feelings? When has that ever been part of the topic?), off the point, and not worth responding to. If you have something substantive to say, by all means. Don't waste my time with this laughable trash, though.

 

[HeatherMD]

why does the "why does god allow suffering" always have to infect everything?

That was tiresome when I was christian, and even moreso now that I'm not.

 

[HeatherMD]

This was a silly analogy and not worth responding to.

Fine, then don't.

You can hate me from afar or whatever.

 

[Bacchus]

These fights are uncalled for. Any debatable topic that has gotten as far as this one is usually closed. However, everyone has stuck to the debates. Lets keep it that way.

 

[Retsage]

Hate you? That presupposes caring. I don't quite care about you enough to hate you. That being said, for someone who idolizes the golden calf of logic, your last response to me utterly lacked it.

 

[HeatherMD]

Want to be friends instead?

 

[GoSpursGo]

v_v

Civility, guys... feel free to disagree, even say you don't understand each others' arguments... but no personal attacks. This thread has been so good this weekend, I'd hate to see it closed.

 

[HeatherMD]

I'm not being hostile, I'm trying to be friendly and she's really angry/bitter for some reason.

 

[Retsage]

I'm neither angry, nor bitter, nor a she for that matter. You presented a terrible argument, I called it out for what it was, you took it as a personal attack. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[HeatherMD]

I took something as a personal attack?

What else am I feeling?

(this must be the empathy at work!)



ok ok now I'm just goading you. Don't take the bait!

 

[Chemist0157]

God may allow suffering, but that fault lies with man. I believe there are alot of bad things that God prevents (maybe a few we never even know about). If there was no suffering, we'd have no need for God because things are already perfect. I just chimed into the conversation (posted way back on page 1 I think) so I haven't been here for the more recent stuff (Nazis?).

 

[RySerr21]

Um, no I didn't bring them up? I think that may've been Chemdude. Regardless, my stance is pretty much in line with primadonna:



Also, God bless you BlackDr2b!

my bad, i thought i was quoting chemdude.

Wassup Ryserr! When I saw your post I started laughing to myself because I knew you had replied to mine. How are you doing these days?

you know, the usual...waiting impatiently for schools to let me know my fate and proscastinating school work by posting on SDN, haha!!!! Whats your status with schools? Are you a bison yet?

 

[teddybear]

why does the "why does god allow suffering" always have to infect everything?

I think it's a legitimate question.

 

[HeatherMD]

I think it's a legitimate question.

I don't.

It's kind of unsound, religious or otherwise.

The religious understand that we live in an imperfect world with hardships, and the non-religious cannot possibly be so ignorant to ignore this and actually question why we don't live in the garden of eden.

I mean, even the non-believers have an understanding of the religious concepts of sin and evil. Pretending they don't is just a way of discrediting themselves.

 

[teddybear]

I don't.

It's kind of unsound, religious or otherwise.

The religious understand that we live in an imperfect world with hardships, and the non-religious cannot possibly be so ignorant to ignore this and actually question why we don't live in the garden of eden.

I mean, even the non-believers have an understanding of the religious concepts of sin and evil. Pretending they don't is just a way of discrediting themselves.

I'm just saying for people who believe in a higher power, if someone believes in that, I don't understand why a God who is supposed to love us more than anything else in the world allows horrible things to happen to us. I realize I'll never know the answer in this lifetime, but I think it's okay to want to know why.

 

[Flushot]

Heather, I was hoping you would at least try to understand some of Retsage's examples. I hate playing the middle ground sometimes, but when it comes to morality, both of you are being very dogmatic. Take that for what you will, but I see any absolutes as ironically fallible in the observable world.

 

[DrYoda]

Here's somthing i've always found interesting regarding God allowing suffering. Several times i've heard an interpertation of the story where God asks Abraham to sacrifice his son that says that God would never ask such an evil thing (or partake in trickery), so that it was actually Satan posing as God asking this of Abraham.

So I guess what I'm wondering is do the religious here belive that God tests us? Even in this sort of way? What do you all think of the somewhat darker, old testament style view of god (flooding the earth, ect...).

I'm not trying to limit this to the Abrahamic religions, I'm just more well versed in them, so pardon the examples all being from the old testament.

 

[Flushot]

I'd love to hear the Hindu or Shintoist interpretation of human suffering, because it might be much more specific depending on the issue at hand. Polytheistic specialization is actually very interesting.

Then again, is it possible to combine this with actions or will of Yahweh?

 

[HeatherMD]

sorry I missed this earlier and didn't respond.

Last I checked, science and mathematics do not equate to morality. There is no such thing as morality in objective mathematics. This was a silly post, completely tangential (sparing people's feelings? When has that ever been part of the topic?), off the point, and not worth responding to. If you have something substantive to say, by all means. Don't waste my time with this laughable trash, though.

Retsage, so long as you believe morality is subjective and unrelated to the rest of the universe, we're never going to agree.

I believe life is as orderly, as right and wrong, as black and white as mathematics, so my post is not silly, tangential, or off the point. I don't think maintaining truth and honesty in science is different than maintaining it in human relationships. I believe morality exists in all things, and that seeking the good, maintaining it, nurturing it, and building on it is equally important in absolutely all situations and aspects of life, from the classroom to the home.

Now, you base your morals on subjective human emotions. But I don't. I can't. I want something more reliable than that. This doesn't make me less than you, so you can quit the jibes, it just means I go about my existence in a different way than you do, and that's fine. It works for me, I like it, I am happy. Are you happy? If yes, then act like it. Don't behave as if my belief system is a personal offense to you.

I'm fond of objectivist principles, but I adhere to them less vigilantly than most Randoids. So you can make the effort to understand philosophies different than your own, or you can continue to pretend my arguments have no substance and are "laughable trash", but now is as good of a time as any to learn patience with people and their ideals, so why not give it a go? There's an opportunity here for both of us to learn something.

 

[HeatherMD]

Heather, I was hoping you would at least try to understand some of Retsage's examples. I hate playing the middle ground sometimes, but when it comes to morality, both of you are being very dogmatic. Take that for what you will, but I see any absolutes as ironically fallible in the observable world.

sorry! just replied to one of her posts.. you must have wrote this while I was typing =) there's a response, hope it's somewhat satisfactory.

 

[Chemist0157]

Here's somthing i've always found interesting regarding God allowing suffering. Several times i've heard an interpertation of the story where God asks Abraham to sacrifice his son that says that God would never ask such an evil thing (or partake in trickery), so that it was actually Satan posing as God asking this of Abraham.

So I guess what I'm wondering is do the religious here belive that God tests us? Even in this sort of way? What do you all think of the somewhat darker, old testament style view of god (flooding the earth, ect...).

I'm not trying to limit this to the Abrahamic religions, I'm just more well versed in them, so pardon the examples all being from the old testament.

Heh, I feel like I was ignored because I answered the "suffering" question, and others just kept asking the question again.

Abraham/Isaac story: No, it was definitely God asking Abraham to do this. It took ALOT of faith on Abraham's part because he finally had his promised son and now he has to let him go!? I justify this way: God had NO intention of allowing Isaac to die; He had promised that a new nation would come from Isaac so that ain't happening. Also, technically, God hadn't laid down any rules/laws yet; all Abraham knew was that he was to be obedient to God. So it wasn't necessarily a trick but a trick question, and Abraham "answered" correctly. Abraham knew that Isaac would be okay because of God's promises.

I do believe that God test us, but not in this particular way. However, creating a parallel with the previous account, He could give us something we desire alot to see if we would give it up for Him.

God's character is the same as in the Old Testament times as it is now in the New Testament times. I really think people were just more evil back in the day. The Flood, Sodom/Gomorrah, the wars in Joshua...all of these were judgment. If anyone has a Bible, look up how bad mankind had become; these people make atrocities like Darfur look like child's play.

Also, I'm surprised about the change in the poll. Christians take the lead, hehe!

 

[DrYoda]

Heh, I feel like I was ignored because I answered the "suffering" question, and others just kept asking the question again.

I really liked your answer to the original "suffering" question. Thanks for responding (to my questions and the original suffering one).

I'd love to hear the Hindu or Shintoist interpretation of human suffering, because it might be much more specific depending on the issue at hand. Polytheistic specialization is actually very interesting.

I'd be very interested in this too, if anyone wants to chime in.

 

[goldenwest]

Feel free to continue talking about whatever you'd like guys; I'm sure it could go on for many many pages. However, I would like to see some more responses to the original questions and draw the discussion back around to medicine instead of pure theology/reason.

Also, I'm surprised about the change in the poll. Christians take the lead, hehe!

Don't take this as any kind of beratement. You're certainly welcome to talk about the numbers on the poll, but let's not turn this into some kind of worldview competition.

 

[bcat85]

I'm surprised by the number of atheists. I would estimate that ~90% of the people at my school are theists, deists, etc. I also go to a Christian school.

But to the OP's original question, I (as a Christian) like to think that our work has nothing to do with longevity, and when we begin to work for longevity as opposed to quality, we lose focus of our mission as physicians. I believe that our intended purpose is to improve the quality of life for individuals so that they can spend time doing things that in some way contribute positively to the world, whether that be becoming President or teaching their grandchildren something they think will help them in life.

 

[Loon]

A coupla random thoughts:

The issue of evil and god is kind of no-win, or at least no resolution. Assume that god created a world, took a look at it and removed the worst 10% of things. The people in that world saw the remaining 90% as all of life and despised the bottom 10% of that. So god removed the worst 10% of things. Because or judgments of good and bad are relative, we wind up thinking the worst of things is bad, and something will always be worse.
This was clearer before I wrote it down....

I find it interesting that, despite having two or three different ethical/moral discussions, we have really only come across a couple of issues (abortion and physician-assisted suicide) that our individual religions (or ethics or morals) would lead us away from doing. Nobody here (I'm making the assumption that there are no Jehovah's Witness or Christian Scientist premeds) has a problem with heart transplants or prescribing medication or suturing wounds.

There's really a vanishingly small area where we aren't all in near-perfect agreement.

For the record, I'm essentially apathetic agnostic.

 

[Flushot]

sorry! just replied to one of her posts.. you must have wrote this while I was typing =) there's a response, hope it's somewhat satisfactory.

Ah, no need to apologize. I like your explanation of your beliefs; it lays out everything very clearly

 

[Bacchus]

I think we should get back to Oregon and Washington.

 

[RySerr21]

I'm surprised by the number of atheists. I would estimate that ~90% of the people at my school are theists, deists, etc. I also go to a Christian school.

But to the OP's original question, I (as a Christian) like to think that our work has nothing to do with longevity, and when we begin to work for longevity as opposed to quality, we lose focus of our mission as physicians. I believe that our intended purpose is to improve the quality of life for individuals so that they can spend time doing things that in some way contribute positively to the world, whether that be becoming President or teaching their grandchildren something they think will help them in life.

this topic was touched briefly on previous pages, but yea, for the tota population the number of people who believe in God is upwards of 90% (i dont remmeber the exact value).

 

[Bacchus]

I need someone to classify me. I do believe there is a God, however I don't believe that he has the ability to intervene in life. Life is determined by our own actions. I also believe that there might be an afterlife, but am not sure. Because of this, people should live there lives as good citizens because of what may happen. I don't want to call science my religion, but a good deal of what I believe can be explained by scientific phenomenon, e.g. evolution.

I'm thinking agnostic, but I don't know.