How does it feel to be in a profession dominated by women? :p

[Pragma]

I too heard (from a raven) that the only place people feel significant anxiety or intimidation is in Taliban-controlled areas of Afghanistan. In fact I will be writing a dissertation on this very topic. "How comparisons to conditions in Taliban controlled areas of Afghanistan relieve stress and worry in all groups"

Wait..."in all groups...of ravens"?

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[Iwillheal]

I too heard (from a raven) that the only place people feel significant anxiety or intimidation is in Taliban-controlled areas of Afghanistan. In fact I will be writing a dissertation on this very topic. "How comparisons to conditions in Taliban controlled areas of Afghanistan relieve stress and worry in all groups"

Very good. Although as you know I was not making the comparison to make the OP feel better about living in a Western Country where human rights are respected and the legal system is much less corrupt than a country like Afghanistan (wink wink, homework help). No, I was making the comparison in order to highlight what I felt was an exaggeration on her part. Whether you agree or not, that was my intent. All this reminds me of one of my friends who is very sensitive to my use of "excruciating." When I once referred to a lecture as "excruciating", she said unless I was nailed to a cross, I better use a different term to describe my dislike of the professor's style of teaching.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Very good. Although as you know I was not making the comparison to make the OP feel better about living in a Western Country where human rights are respected and the legal system is much less corrupt than a country like Afghanistan (wink wink, homework help). No, I was making the comparison in order to highlight what I felt was an exaggeration on her part. Whether you agree or not, that was my intent. All this reminds me of one of my friends who is very sensitive to my use of "excruciating." When I once referred to a lecture as "excruciating", she said unless I was nailed to a cross, I better use a different term to describe my dislike of the professor's style of teaching.

Not to be too much of a party pooper, but to comment on a non-humorous note: the experience you mentioned provides a great reflection/example of the same idea mentioned in the blog Psychadelic linked. That is, whether or not we agree with the cause/source of discomfort, once we're made aware of it, we really have two choices: say it isn't right/fair and that it's the other person's problem, or acknowledge the issue and do what we can to appropriately accommodate it.

Using your classmate example, even though most people might not take issue with use of the word excruciating in that situation, I'd imagine you likely didn't continually use it in interactions with the female in question afterward.

 

[Pragma]

Not to be too much of a party pooper, but to comment on a non-humorous note: the experience you mentioned provides a great reflection/example of the same idea mentioned in the blog Psychadelic linked. That is, whether or not we agree with the cause/source of discomfort, once we're made aware of it, we really have two choices: say it isn't right/fair and that it's the other person's problem, or acknowledge the issue and do what we can to appropriately accommodate it.

Using your classmate example, even though most people might not take issue with use of the word excruciating in that situation, I'd imagine you likely didn't continually use it in interactions with the female in question afterward.

That brings me back to my Catch 22 though, and where I could use a little help in understanding what exactly is expected here. Because there is a significant danger in making any form of statement or gesture suggesting "vulnerability" of women.

1) I think it is dangerous to assume that all women feel this way (intimidated) with men at work. If I were to ever say something to this effect in the workplace, it would not only come off as ignorant, but could be taken as offensive/sexist. If a man wanted to be proactive about "accommodating" these assumed feelings, they couldn't do it overtly without reinforcing the label of "dominant-aggressive" or meaning "Hey, I know you are feeling this way (without asking) so I am trying to fix it, <<man growl>>"

(Side note: I am described as a quiet and mild-mannered person by most of the women I have worked with-at least that's what they tell me at happy hour).

2) I doubt most women will be forthcoming about this "intimidation" in the first place. It is a hard thing to admit that you feel that way. When I feel intimidated (by a male or female) I would never imagine mentioning it to them. Admitting these feelings of vulnerability isn't highly socialized with men in most situations. It can't be easy for women to say that they feel that way in work situations.

So, if a) I can't bring it up because it makes me too dominant/presumptuous and b) it is unlikely to come up, I probably won't have an opportunity to do much about it directly (at least communication-wise). If a woman I worked with ever did mention feeling intimidated by me, I'd obviously want to address it to the extent that they were comfortable with it and involve a mediator of sorts if that seemed to help facilitate communication. But something tells me that if it got to that point, they probably wouldn't be wanting to talk to me.

I find this topic quite interesting, and I think that men in general would benefit from clarity surrounding exactly what they are being asked to do or not do when they work with women in order to make these "accommodations." Because I still don't see much that seems apparent aside from just doing whatever it is that female coworker/employee asks you to do, which seems pretty vague with a lot of potential for inequity to me. If the solution is to make behavior changes without an overt discussion, I have a hard time believing that doing something differently couldn't be taken in a bad way too. Of course, then there is the other question I have: What about my feelings at work?

In my experience, people (men and women) are quite sensitive to the perception of differential treatment in the workplace.

 

[wigflip]

cara & psychadelic: wow! Great responses. I agree wholeheartedly.

Current and future male psychologists (!), what I'd like to say to you is this:

I am a woman of European descent. When people of color, for whatever reason, take the time out of their day to attempt to teach me about their experiences with interpersonal and institutional racism (and really, why should they bother?), they've done me a tremendous favor. I listen. I try to take it in. I don't steamroll over them, make flip jokes, or get defensive. I don't invoke red herrings like politicized people of color's alleged "bitterness" towards white people. I don't explain to them why they're wrong or how in this particular situation I was wronged because I was white. I don't go on about why white folks have it tough too and how this cancels out or mitigates the severity of people of color's oppression. Nor do I throw up my hands and suggest that it's all a terrible tangle and bemoan how difficult it is to improve matters. I try to receive what they're telling me with some humility and eagerness to learn, particularly if I've been accused of some kind of oafishness around issues related to race.

 

[cara susanna]

Thanks! It's actually my experience as a woman and feminist that have made me reevaluate my beliefs regarding racism and what it's like to see things from a privileged perspective. After all, it's hypocritical of me to say that men can't really know what women are experiencing but then deny the same thing regarding people of color.

Also, the study of anxiety in ravens located in Taliban-controlled areas is of great interest to me. Don't forget to control for gender, it's probably different for female vs. male ravens!

 

[wigflip]

Thanks! It's actually my experience as a woman and feminist that have made me reevaluate my beliefs regarding racism and what it's like to see things from a privileged perspective. After all, it's hypocritical of me to say that men can't really know what women are experiencing but then deny the same thing regarding people of color.

I think that although men can't know firsthand what it's like to be a woman in contemporary society, men can (and should) develop an understanding of what women are experiencing--if they care enough to listen and take it in. Some of the most avid, well-informed feminists I know are men. Identity doesn't have to be a barrier to understanding unless you let it be.

 

[Iwillheal]

Wow, instead of being offered a potential solution to the tension between the more traditional image of women as needing protection and the more recent empowered and independent portrayal, we are told, in a motherly tone, Don't complain, eat your soup, and thank the Lord you have something to eat.

I kid, I kid...But seriously, you guys are making it really hard on us. I mean, l'm still struggling with the Madonna-***** complex and then you add the feminist stuff no top of that, an enigma inside a bigger enigma.

 

[roubs]

I kid, I kid...But seriously, you guys are making it really hard on us. I mean, l'm still struggling with the Madonna-***** complex and then you add the feminist stuff no top of that, an enigma inside a bigger enigma.

Which 'us' ? The other guys in this thread have managed to discuss the issue w/o being crass.

 

[paramour]

Sounds like an interaction with someone dealing with borderline personality disorder. kobayashi maru for the geek reference of the day.

No win scenario!

 

[Pragma]

I think that although men can't know firsthand what it's like to be a woman in contemporary society, men can (and should) develop an understanding of what women are experiencing--if they care enough to listen and take it in. Some of the most avid, well-informed feminists I know are men. Identity doesn't have to be a barrier to understanding unless you let it be.

Absolutely. But believe me, it gets confusing when you hear different things from different women. I've probably become more confused over the years between diversity trainings, feminist authors, female coworkers/colleagues/friends, and not to mention all of the clinical work and supervision involved in becoming a clinical psychologist. Oh yeah, and being married . I've identified as a feminist myself in the past, although I don't think I fit that mold in a way that would satisfy folks anymore.

If there is anything that is clear to me, it is that beyond acknowledging the existence of oppression, there is a lot of disagreement about how things should proceed to end that oppression. I'm just searching for clarity for what specific things are helpful to be unoppressive as a male in the workplace (specifically - not society at large because that is a larger topic), and it is a lot easier to be candid with my language with the anonymity of the internet. Based on this discussion, I seem to have heard that I need to make some form of vague accommodation to female coworkers who no doubt are "intimidated" (which I still think is a big overgeneralization) by me solely because I am a male and have the potential to traumatize them. So far, wigflip is about the only poster who engages in a discussion about specific things to consider doing/not doing.

 

[Iwillheal]

Which 'us' ? The other guys in this thread have managed to discuss the issue w/o being crass.

I am not being crass. I've been around enough crass guys to know the difference. I'm simply describing things from my own perspective and I think I am free to do that. And sue me, I add a bit of humor to keep this light. I'm serious all day long, so I don't think deviating from pure PC language or adding a bit of humor (quite a bit of it self-deprecating by the way) is "crass." Lastly, no, I was not speaking on behalf of you. Feel free to go back to your Taliban paper.

 

[roubs]

Based on this discussion, I seem to have heard that I need to make some form of vague accommodation to female coworkers who no doubt are "intimidated" (which I still think is a big overgeneralization) by me solely because I am a male and have the potential to traumatize them. So far, wigflip is about the only poster who engages in a discussion about specific things to consider doing/not doing.

At risk of oversimplifying, I feel like the behaviors that naturally flow from the mantra "don't be an ass****" apply to help make the workplace open and friendly for all. Obviously it's hard to snag a behavioral sample through the internet but I think it's possible that by being a good co-worker you are already doing plenty for your part.

I think there is a balance between feeling you need to be constantly on your toes around women and blathering around like a chauvinist pig. It probably involves a healthy dose of being mindful of how you interact with others. If I decided to evaluate myself I might think about things like: How do I interact with someone more timid/less assertive? Do I tend to be pushy if I can get away with it? As a good Westerner I think it's perfectly cool to be assertive, but am I at least judicious about it or do I enjoy lobbing bombs and do it often? Am I open enough to feedback that if a minor interpersonal issue came up I could discuss it maturely before it became a big issue?

 

[wigflip]

Absolutely. But believe me, it gets confusing when you hear different things from different women. I've probably become more confused over the years between diversity trainings, feminist authors, female coworkers/colleagues/friends, and not to mention all of the clinical work and supervision involved in becoming a clinical psychologist. Oh yeah, and being married . I've identified as a feminist myself in the past, although I don't think I fit that mold in a way that would satisfy folks anymore.

If there is anything that is clear to me, it is that beyond acknowledging the existence of oppression, there is a lot of disagreement about how things should proceed to end that oppression. I'm just searching for clarity for what specific things are helpful to be unoppressive as a male in the workplace (specifically - not society at large because that is a larger topic), and it is a lot easier to be candid with my language with the anonymity of the internet. Based on this discussion, I seem to have heard that I need to make some form of vague accommodation to female coworkers who no doubt are "intimidated" (which I still think is a big overgeneralization) by me solely because I am a male and have the potential to traumatize them. So far, wigflip is about the only poster who engages in a discussion about specific things to consider doing/not doing.

Thoughtful reply. Thanks. That is in fact an issue: there is no one monolithic female perspective or feminist perspective. There are many strains of feminism (and for you guys who feel targeted by feminism, I have news for you: white women, esp the het, middle-class ones, are the ones in the crosshairs of much contemporary third wave feminist thought, not men). Porn (to tie in w/ Zimbardo thread) is a perfect example. There are various feminist positions on porn (please no more unfunny "jokes," iwillheal), so asking for the feminist position on porn, or many other issues, doesn't necessarily make sense. Just as you wouldn't ask your "black friend" to speak for all black people, no one woman, feminist or not, is going to present an authoritative woman's perspective that fits all people and contexts. In lieu of that, behavior can be guided by state and federal laws, guild ethics, workplace policies, common sense, perspective taking, and personal preferences.

Speaking for myself, in professional situations, I don't like to be ogled, have people move into my space or touch me (beyond handshaking) without permission, refer to me using endearments ("dear," "honey"), interrupt or talk over me, dismiss my ideas until it's convenient to steal credit for them, or act as though my concerns as a person or woman are silly or irrelevant. I don't like having my sex invoked ("Well as a woman surely you..."). I don't like it when people flaunt their disinterest in women's issues/perspectives. I don't like be told, directly or by implication, that my job entails looking ornamental, or that it's required for me to be a "nice mommy," or for there to be a gender differential in expectations for male and female work behavior. I don't appreciate ridiculously outdated dress codes (skirts or dresses, high heels). With the exception of the latter (dress codes), I've seen all of the above and much worse in putatively progressive, You Clearly Know Better academic work spaces.

 

[wigflip]

At risk of oversimplifying, I feel like the behaviors that naturally flow from the mantra "don't be an ass****" apply to help make the workplace open and friendly for all. Obviously it's hard to snag a behavioral sample through the internet but I think it's possible that by being a good co-worker you are already doing plenty for your part.

I think there is a balance between feeling you need to be constantly on your toes around women and blathering around like a chauvinist pig. It probably involves a healthy dose of being mindful of how you interact with others. If I decided to evaluate myself I might think about things like: How do I interact with someone more timid/less assertive? Do I tend to be pushy if I can get away with it? As a good Westerner I think it's perfectly cool to be assertive, but am I at least judicious about it or do I enjoy lobbing bombs and do it often? Am I open enough to feedback that if a minor interpersonal issue came up I could discuss it maturely before it became a big issue?

beautifully said. i'd like to add that many of the people I know who hold power positions (some of whom are men, some of whom are women) often appear to forget that they hold tremendous amounts of power over people and act as though their subordinates are free to speak their minds, request that the supervisor discontinue any offending behaviors. of course many of these same people make their livings studying human behavior.

 

[Pragma]

At risk of oversimplifying, I feel like the behaviors that naturally flow from the mantra "don't be an ass****" apply to help make the workplace open and friendly for all. Obviously it's hard to snag a behavioral sample through the internet but I think it's possible that by being a good co-worker you are already doing plenty for your part.

I think there is a balance between feeling you need to be constantly on your toes around women and blathering around like a chauvinist pig. It probably involves a healthy dose of being mindful of how you interact with others. If I decided to evaluate myself I might think about things like: How do I interact with someone more timid/less assertive? Do I tend to be pushy if I can get away with it? As a good Westerner I think it's perfectly cool to be assertive, but am I at least judicious about it or do I enjoy lobbing bombs and do it often? Am I open enough to feedback that if a minor interpersonal issue came up I could discuss it maturely before it became a big issue?

Sure these are great questions that anyone should ask themselves. What I don't get is what specifically men should be doing to accommodate women based one what has been said in the thread about being intimidating. Unless you think that these questions are ones that reflect things that men tend to be deficient at and women have no problem with on the whole (maybe they contribute to us being intimidating)?

When I take a step back and think about male stereotypes, being overly aggressive and assertive certainly come to mind. But I am pretty passive and laid back about things and have generally been given the feedback that I am maybe even "too nice" around the office. I think "intimidating" is probably one of the last words someone would use to describe me. Maybe that is why I am struggling so much with this concept, because I don't see it applying to my day-to-day interactions wtih women, who tend to be the more assertive (and even aggressive) at my place of employment. It seemed that way in my cohort as well. I guess my experiences must be an exception.

 

[Pragma]

Thoughtful reply. Thanks. That is in fact an issue: there is no one monolithic female perspective or feminist perspective. There are many strains of feminism (and for you guys who feel targeted by feminism, I have news for you: white women, esp the het, middle-class ones, are the ones in the crosshairs of much contemporary third wave feminist thought, not men). Porn (to tie in w/ Zimbardo thread) is a perfect example. There are various feminist positions on porn (please no more unfunny "jokes," iwillheal), so asking for the feminist position on porn, or many other issues, doesn't necessarily make sense. Just as you wouldn't ask your "black friend" to speak for all black people, no one woman, feminist or not, is going to present an authoritative woman's perspective that fits all people and contexts. In lieu of that, behavior can be guided by state and federal laws, guild ethics, workplace policies, common sense, perspective taking, and personal preferences.

Speaking for myself, in professional situations, I don't like to be ogled, have people move into my space or touch me (beyond handshaking) without permission, refer to me using endearments ("dear," "honey"), interrupt or talk over me, dismiss my ideas until it's convenient to steal credit for them, or act as though my concerns as a person or woman are silly or irrelevant. I don't like having my sex invoked ("Well as a woman surely you..."). I don't like it when people flaunt their disinterest in women's issues/perspectives. I don't like be told, directly or by implication, that my job entails looking ornamental, or that it's required for me to be a "nice mommy," or for there to be a gender differential in expectations for male and female work behavior. I don't appreciate ridiculously outdated dress codes (skirts or dresses, high heels). With the exception of the latter (dress codes), I've seen all of the above and much worse in putatively progressive, You Clearly Know Better academic work spaces.

Thank you for this. It helps me to get away from the abstract sometimes. I haven't had to deal with a lot of these things myself (although some of these are not male-specific behaviors and I've dealt with them coming from females too). I would imagine that any one of these things might be water under the bridge on its own, but that the gestalt is disturbing as hell.

It is scary that some of these things happen on such a regular basis, and within academia of all places.

 

[wigflip]

Thank you for this. It helps me to get away from the abstract sometimes. I haven't had to deal with a lot of these things myself (although some of these are not male-specific behaviors and I've dealt with them coming from females too). I would imagine that any one of these things might be water under the bridge on its own, but that the gestalt is disturbing as hell.

It is scary that some of these things happen on such a regular basis, and within academia of all places.

Yes! That's precisely correct. And sometimes, some of these things can be subtle; you come away knowing that something has occurred and it feels uncomfortable, but you're not sure exactly what, and you'd feel foolish objecting or describing it. Of course other things, like having a male professor brush up against you several times during a meeting, are considerably less vague.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Sure these are great questions that anyone should ask themselves. What I don't get is what specifically men should be doing to accommodate women based one what has been said in the thread about being intimidating. Unless you think that these questions are ones that reflect things that men tend to be deficient at and women have no problem with on the whole (maybe they contribute to us being intimidating)?

When I take a step back and think about male stereotypes, being overly aggressive and assertive certainly come to mind. But I am pretty passive and laid back about things and have generally been given the feedback that I am maybe even "too nice" around the office. I think "intimidating" is probably one of the last words someone would use to describe me. Maybe that is why I am struggling so much with this concept, because I don't see it applying to my day-to-day interactions wtih women, who tend to be the more assertive (and even aggressive) at my place of employment. It seemed that way in my cohort as well. I guess my experiences must be an exception.

Perhaps consider that this isn't personal to you or to any other individual. It is a collection of experiences that conglomerate to create a thread that has commonalities. Having outliers, particularly those who are aspiring or practicing psychologists, is to be expected--perhaps you are one. I do think that roubs' and wigflip's offerings are excellent, and there are likely other ways to approach those situations. Mostly, it's about presenting an openness and questioning nature, not about prescribing any particular behavior. If only it were that simple, we would not be having this discussion!

Extra thanks for roubs and wigflips contributions, as I would have scoffed away this thread a long time ago if not for your comments.

 

[Pragma]

Perhaps consider that this isn't personal to you or to any other individual. It is a collection of experiences that conglomerate to create a thread that has commonalities. Having outliers, particularly those who are aspiring or practicing psychologists, is to be expected--perhaps you are one. I do think that roubs' and wigflip's offerings are excellent, and there are likely other ways to approach those situations. Mostly, it's about presenting an openness and questioning nature, not about prescribing any particular behavior. If only it were that simple, we would not be having this discussion!

Extra thanks for roubs and wigflips contributions, as I would have scoffed away this thread a long time ago if not for your comments.

I suppose that would be good for people to understand then. But it certainly creates less clarity for people like myself who don't like to be accused of something based on their gender. As a straight white guy, you learn very early in this field to spend a lot of time actively listening to the perspectives of women and other oppressed groups, both to develop personally and professionally. But I also do reach a point where I feel that my own perspective is dismissed or considered of little value, and on this forum I try to challenge that when I think I see it.

 

[wigflip]

Extra thanks for roubs and wigflips contributions, as I would have scoffed away this thread a long time ago if not for your comments.

Aw, shucks, thank you.

I know that I don't want male colleagues, students, or superiors (profs or otherwise) to make assumptions about me based on me being a woman (i.e. that I need to be treated as though I'm fragile, catered to as someone who is assumed to like some stereotypical cluster of "feminine" things). I would consider that to be paternalistic. I really just want to be treated equally, boobs and all.

As Pat Parker writes in "For the white person who wants to know how to be my friend":

"The first thing you do is to forget that i'm Black.
Second, you must never forget that i'm Black."

The entire poem can be found here (there are typos though ):
http://www.neiu.edu/~lsfuller/Poems/white.htm

 

[Iwillheal]

There are various feminist positions on porn (please no more unfunny "jokes" iwillheal)...

Huh? If you're still reeling from me comparing your silencing us and ignoring the legitimate questions asked and telling us "current and future male psychologists" how we should behave, to a mother silencing her complaining kids, then I was trying to make a point. That was not a knock knock joke for your personal amusement. I felt the questions asked deserved a different kind of reply. But it seems you decided to answer the questions asked and engage in constructive conversation so I have not said anything since because this is exactly what I wanted to see happen.

 

[wigflip]

Huh? If you're still reeling from me comparing your silencing us and ignoring the legitimate questions asked and telling us "current and future male psychologists" how we should behave, to a mother silencing her complaining kids, then I was trying to make a point. That was not a knock knock joke for your personal amusement. I felt the questions asked deserved a different kind of reply. But it seems you decided to answer the questions asked and engage in constructive conversation so I have not said anything since because this is exactly what I wanted to see happen.

Aren't you the one who was trying to argue that it's not offensive to refer to a 30 year old woman as a "girl"? I'm not sure you're the best arbiter of what a "constructive conversation" related to women and gender should be (besides "what you want to see happen").

 

[Iwillheal]

Actually that wasn't me. I was the one who made fun of my own male insecurity but I won't quote myself; I think you've had enough of my attempts at humor for a while.

 

[wigflip]

Actually that wasn't me.

Well, I'm glad to hear that, because that was sheer insanity.

 

[roubs]

http://www.theatlantic.com/national...udy-points-to-a-hidden-form-of-sexism/258057/

Interesting perspective on how men with 1950s views of their own marriages bring that attitude to the workplace, in some ways something that shouldn't be all that surprising:

"We found that employed husbands in traditional marriages, compared to those in modern marriages, tend to (a) view the presence of women in the workplace unfavorably, (b) perceive that organizations with higher numbers of female employees are operating less smoothly, (c) find organizations with female leaders as relatively unattractive, and (d) deny, more frequently, qualified female employees opportunities for promotion."

 

[Goodluckchuck]

Ready for my .02....actually let me be a little arrogant and say .03

I absolutley love being the only man out of a bunch of girls. Apart from all my hard work I get to chat with a bunch of cute girls all day and meet their girlfriends at social events. Straight winning....

On a more serious note, yet not so serious, I do not feel like the minority in the cliched sense of the word whatsoever. In fact, I feel like the girls in the program value my oppinion more because I bring a male perspective to the table. Winning yet again...

Girls, girls, girls, girls, girls.......anyone watch the HBO show titled 'girls'.....That irks my soo much that the writers decided to call it 'girls!' Shouldn't they have called it 'Women' or 'Females'? Ugh I'm so Irked


P.S. Girls

 

[cara susanna]

Wow, not only did you call your female colleagues "girls," but you also called yourself a "man." AND your screenname references one of the most misogynistic, objectifying movies I've ever seen. All you had to do is throw in the term "mancave" and you'd have hit the trifecta for me!

 

[KillerDiller]

Wow, not only did you call your female colleagues "girls," but you also called yourself a "man." AND your screenname references one of the most misogynistic, objectifying movies I've ever seen. All you had to do is throw in the term "mancave" and you'd have hit the trifecta for me!

Oh, come on Cara, he has a point. I mean, we all know that HBO gets to dictate America's cultural parameters. That's why Romney's running mate is going to be decided by a grand melee this year .

 

[Pragma]

Wow, not only did you call your female colleagues "girls," but you also called yourself a "man." AND your screenname references one of the most misogynistic, objectifying movies I've ever seen. All you had to do is throw in the term "mancave" and you'd have hit the trifecta for me!

Can't multiple (serious) uses of the term "winning" be an adequate substitute for "mancave"?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Wait, does "mancave" have some type of negative connotation? I don't use the term much myself, but that would actually be news to me...

 

[roubs]

Wait, does "mancave" have some type of negative connotation? I don't use the term much myself, but that would actually be news to me...

just that it sounds brahtastic, brah.

 

[KillerDiller]

just that it sounds brahtastic, brah.

Yeah, my husband hates the term "mancave" with a passion, and I believe the reason is that it unnecessarily creates a divide between genders on aesthetic issues. The literal interpretation of the term indicates that men are primitive and disgusting enough to need a cave. In it's figurative connotation, it suggests that a man's space in his home should be devoted to drinking and ludicrously large electronic equipment. Instead, my husband's space at home is a chaise from Restoration Hardware and a coffee table book on Beaux-art architecture.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

just that it sounds brahtastic, brah.

Haha ok, just wanted to be sure I hadn't missed something.

 

[js1221]

I have to say as a scientific skeptic (in a good way), is the field of social services really more "dominated" by women? What are the TRUE statistics? I don't know. I haven't looked at or done the research. But I felt compelled to reply to an intriguing thread. But, I do know from experience that it does SEEM that there are a lot more women in grad ed programs and in the field. It is interesting, because the field of medicine and social services traditionally was very male dominated (actually that could also be inaccurate in some respects, but in general true). I think largely the shift is more opportunities for women and women seeking more careers, whereas in the past there was stigma concerning women working outside the home and the kinds of work that was socially acceptable for women to do. On the other hand, I think the kinds of work that men have been socially expected to do has also changed. So, I'm glad that women in general can feel more empowered to choose and be free to live their dreams, etc. Now, as for factors beyond this, and specifically concerning the field of human services, and I suppose here the field of psychology is specifically being talked about in this forum, there does seem to be more women in the field now. I don't know what the reasons really are for this other than the above stated. With that I will say this... from an experiential perspective, as a grad student in a counselor ed program I was outnumbered by women. I enjoyed the opportunity to be around lots of women, yet sometimes I became a bit annoyed. It would have been nice to have more male student friends to associate with. Also, in the work world I too have found, working in a state level vocational rehab agency, there are definitely more women than men - same feelings about this. Now I feel like I have to go find a book on this...Another amazon.com purchase likely.

 

[cara susanna]

Wait, does "mancave" have some type of negative connotation? I don't use the term much myself, but that would actually be news to me...

Basically, it implies that the rest of the house is the woman's domain, as well as perpetuates the idea that a man is being "oppressed" by his wife's domesticity and her (oh no!) feminine taste in decor. People also have pointed out that women don't have any individual space that is truly theirs (it is all shared), so why should the man get one and not the woman? And, no, the kitchen doesn't count.

And, yeah, just the word "mancave" is bro-tastic.

Can't multiple (serious) uses of the term "winning" be an adequate substitute for "mancave"?

Well argued.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Basically, it implies that the rest of the house is the woman's domain, as well as perpetuates the idea that a man is being "oppressed" by his wife's domesticity and her (oh no!) feminine taste in decor. People also have pointed out that women don't have any individual space that is truly theirs (it is all shared), so why should the man get one and not the woman? And, no, the kitchen doesn't count.

And, yeah, just the word "mancave" is bro-tastic.

See, my knee-jerk reaction wouldn't have been to make any of those assumptions/judgments, although I also realize that I'm of course viewing this from the male (and, more specifically, my unique) perspective. I just see a "mancave" as one (stereotypical) version of a room in a home which a male partner has reserved as their personal space/refuge. I also wouldn't at all say that the female partner is any less-entitled to such a space of her own; and no, I agree, the kitchen doesn't count.

As for "winning," if I ever use that term in my day-to-day life, I fully expect any and all of my friends to taze me.

 

[Pragma]

See, my knee-jerk reaction wouldn't have been to make any of those assumptions/judgments, although I also realize that I'm of course viewing this from the male (and, more specifically, my unique) perspective. I just see a "mancave" as one (stereotypical) version of a room in a home which a male partner has reserved as their personal space/refuge. I also wouldn't at all say that the female partner is any less-entitled to such a space of her own; and no, I agree, the kitchen doesn't count.

As for "winning," if I ever use that term in my day-to-day life, I fully expect any and all of my friends to taze me.

Then you'd be "bi-winning"

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Then you'd be "bi-winning"

Well-played, well-played

 

[JeyRo]

http://youtu.be/d-N9daqANcw

 

[Goodluckchuck]

Yeah, my husband hates the term "mancave" with a passion, and I believe the reason is that it unnecessarily creates a divide between genders on aesthetic issues. The literal interpretation of the term indicates that men are primitive and disgusting enough to need a cave. In it's figurative connotation, it suggests that a man's space in his home should be devoted to drinking and ludicrously large electronic equipment. Instead, my husband's space at home is a chaise from Restoration Hardware and a coffee table book on Beaux-art architecture.

Hey could you please use more GRE words in your posts from now on...you are not using enough.

-Winning in my mancave on the reg

 

[mclash]

Hey could you please use more GRE words in your posts from now on...you are not using enough.

-Winning in my mancave on the reg

If you're attempting to study for your GREs by posting on a forum, the onus is on you to supply your own GRE words.

 

[Iwillheal]

....your screenname references one of the most misogynistic, objectifying movies I've ever seen....

Speaking of that, I'm not quite clear on what's considered misogynistic--perhaps there is a subjective component to that label--and that movie is certainly not a prime example in my mind. For instance, I find some of Kubrick's and Judd Apatow's films to be more misogynistic. Regardless, it is just a really badly made movie and the only reason I saw it because I'm crazy for Jessica Alba. And ever so jealous of her lucky husband. I wouldn't watch that movie again of course; I also do agree that it objectifies women.

But while I do think that a lot of Hollywood movies objectify women (and are biased in many other ways), I've noticed a recent trend in movies objectifying men as well. In fact, it is rare that a movie coming out of Hollywood treats people as people. They're all beautiful caricatures, puppets being walked along formulaic plot lines. Between one dimensional CGI-heavy superhero movies; films steeped in wanton brutality, gore, and sexuality; and more and more comedies that try to outdo each other when it comes to "gross out humor", I have found going to movies less and less appealing.

I made the awful mistake of going to see one of Sacha Baron Cohen's films and by the time a character made a comment that was at the same time racist, homophobic, and referenced pedophilia, I got up in disgust and left. And it is not just movies. Sarah Silverman was hosting some award show (aimed at teens) a year or two ago, a show which I was watching with my family. She then decided to graphically portray a part of Britney Spears' body (re the famous upskirt "incident"). Well, that was just...wonderful.

What I'm trying to get at is two different issues: One, women are often objectified in the media--even by other women. But they're not the only ones. Media rarely portrays--or even attempt to portray--people in realistic and nonbiased way, as complex beings that grow, change, and are more than the sum of their parts. Secondly, despite all the progress we've made, media seems mostly unaffected, a true case of "arrested development" (and not funny and smart like that sitcom ). We pay lip service to certain ideas and ideals, make token gestures, and hope that people don't see through the contradictions, inconsistencies, and hypocrisies.

 

[KillerDiller]

Hey could you please use more GRE words in your posts from now on...you are not using enough.

-Winning in my mancave on the reg

....Um...good one, ace.

 

[cara susanna]

There are a lot of articles online about how superheroes, although they are muscular and wear tight clothes, are not really sexually objectified. Just do a search and you can read about it.

 

[Pragma]

There are a lot of articles online about how superheroes, although they are muscular and wear tight clothes, are not really sexually objectified. Just do a search and you can read about it.

I'd agree...except for Thor. My wife likes Thor...and I doubt it is because of the lightning/hammer throwing.

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

Speaking of superhero movies, I still would argue that women are far more objectified than men. Just look at how men are posed vs women.

http://feministing.com/2012/05/09/what-if-dude-superheroes-posed-like-lady-superheroes/

 

[futureapppsy2]

Aw, shucks, thank you.

I know that I don't want male colleagues, students, or superiors (profs or otherwise) to make assumptions about me based on me being a woman (i.e. that I need to be treated as though I'm fragile, catered to as someone who is assumed to like some stereotypical cluster of "feminine" things). I would consider that to be paternalistic. I really just want to be treated equally, boobs and all.

As Pat Parker writes in "For the white person who wants to know how to be my friend":

"The first thing you do is to forget that i'm Black.
Second, you must never forget that i'm Black."

The entire poem can be found here (there are typos though ):
http://www.neiu.edu/~lsfuller/Poems/white.htm

I think the deceptively simple principle for multi-/cross-cultural things (including gender) is to keep in mind that group or privilege factors play into things, but you can't assume a person is group norms personified, either. It's an incredibly difficult thing for everyone to balance, and I think it's impossible to perfect. I think it's also important to remember that privilege isn't an all-or-nothing thing and that all people are more likely to notice the privilege they lack than the privilege they have (for example, I lack male and able-bodied privilege, but I have White, Christian, heterosexual, middle class, etc. privilege. Both the privilege I have and that that I lack affect me and how I view the world).

(And while we're talking about privilege, can I go off a slight tangent about how much I HATE RUNNING? Or, rather, how much I hate the attitude that running is *everything*, that it is the only thing worth doing, that it is Jesus/heaven/nirvana /ecstasy/life/the meaning of everything/the cure for everything/whathaveyou, etc.? I'm a martial arts student, and I grew up relatively athletic (skiing, cycling, swimming, horseback riding, etc) in a relatively athletic family, so I'm not opposed to or unappreciative or athleticism, really. But as someone who has never&#8212;and will never&#8212;be able to run, I don't get running at all. I don't understand what it is in the slightest. It's my blind man's sunset, and I'm *so* tired of constantly hearing about how it is perfect and wonderful and how just everyone should do it or they can't be human and Nike ads as FB profile pics and so on and so forth. /rant over)

 

[Iwillheal]

Please ignore if too personal, but would you mind saying what your disability is? I'm just a little confused because you say you do martial arts and are athletic, and from an athletic family. Is it that you don't like running because you can't run or you find it pointless as an exercise? The reason I'm interested is, in part, because I am overweight and I permanently damaged my knees several years ago when I completely ignored what my body was telling me and engaged in a game of soccer with a few people. So I can't run/jog either. But I was never athletic to begin with. But personally I hate walking. I actually rather jog. Walking bores the hell out of me.

 

[cara susanna]

If it helps, I hate running. High-impact exercises aren't the best on your joints, too.