How easy is it just to pass?

[endofevangelion]

Hello everyone,

I'm wondering how easy it is simply to pass classes in medical school? From what I gather, the amount of work it takes to go from an HP to an H has a more exponential relationship than to go from a F to a P.

For those of you who are firm believers in the C=MD theory, how much studying do you guys put in the first two years to get by?

Thanks for the input!

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[FrickenhugeMD]

I'm not one of the people in the C=MD club, but I am friends with a couple people who are. They don't study till the week of a test, and usually skim by only a few percentage points. Personally, I think that just passing would not take much effort. However, there are people in my class that study non-stop and still failed classes, so I guess it will really depends on how well the material sticks in your brain.

p.s. Don't sell yourself short now, it may bite you in the ass later....

 

[Perrotfish]

First, this depends on your school/your intelligence/the course you're in. There will be some courses a monkey could pass and some where a significant number of students are worried about not repeating. There will be that guy in your class who can watch TV all day, drink every night, and still get an 80 minimum on every test while others while work 60 hr weeks to pull 70s. Some schools (mine) have essentially a 0% fail out rate while others fail 5% or on rare occasion even 10% of their matriculants over a 4 year period. So any estimates are necessarily going to be an average. That being said...

On average: Maybe 30 hrs/week, including those hours cramming towards the end.

With a reasonable margin of safety: 40-50 hrs/ week. Just barely passing on average means failing a significant percentage of your courses, and your goal is not to fail any. If you're determined to do the very least possible I'd say your best bet would be to study reasonably hard for the first test or two in a course, and then dial down the effort after you've goten a couple of 80s and only need a 55 average on everything that's left. Of course, some schools have started to realize students are doing this and have changed to a 1 test per course system whenever feasible. Basically the fewer tests per course the more you're going to need to study to maintan a reasonable margin of safety.

But remember: Your first two years are basically a big long prep course for your step one. It's perfectly possibly to pass all your classes, but then to fail the test because you didn't retain enough. Now most schools (maybe all in the US) will let you retake a failed step 1, but that just basically means that you're going to make up all that studying you didn't do in a very condensed period of incredible misery. And at the end of it you're still going to have a score/match that no one envies.

Finally: rather than P = MD, it might be more accurate to think P = FP. Which is fine if you end up wanting to be an FP but you're really not going to know what you're going to want to do at the start of your first year

Good summary as to how screwing around can affect you down the line:

http://www.studentdoctor.net/pandabearmd/2006/03/17/the-residency-match-part-1/

 

[njbmd]

You may want to set your sights on just barely passing but most people with this attitude end up just barely failing. If you think that you will just study 80% of the material, you will find that you end up with 60% mastered which isn't enough to get you through first year let alone second year or boards.

In general, the difference between the person who is first in the class and the person who is last in the class is less than 10 percentage points. Most people who find themselves just barely passing worked to try to pass by a substantial margin. Sure P =MD and in the end, you do the best that you can.

After all, it's professional school and like Marine Corps Boot Camp, everyone has to go over the wall. Some people will clear it by 6 feet and some will scrape on the way over but every goes over the wall or you won't become a physician regardless of your school or your intelligence. In the end, your work ethic determines your fate. Shoot for a bare pass and you get a bare fail.

 

[endofevangelion]

First, this depends on your school/your intelligence/the course you're in. There will be some courses a monkey could pass and some where a significant number of students are worried about not repeating. There will be that guy in your class who can watch TV all day, drink every night, and still get an 80 minimum on every test while others while work 60 hr weeks to pull 70s. Some schools (mine) have essentially a 0% fail out rate while others fail 5% or on rare occasion even 10% of their matriculants over a 4 year period. So any estimates are necessarily going to be an average. That being said...

On average: Maybe 30 hrs/week, including those hours cramming towards the end.

With a reasonable margin of safety: 40-50 hrs/ week. Just barely passing on average means failing a significant percentage of your courses, and your goal is not to fail any. If you're determined to do the very least possible I'd say your best bet would be to study reasonably hard for the first test or two in a course, and then dial down the effort after you've goten a couple of 80s and only need a 55 average on everything that's left. Of course, some schools have started to realize students are doing this and have changed to a 1 test per course system whenever feasible. Basically the fewer tests per course the more you're going to need to study to maintan a reasonable margin of safety.

But remember: Your first two years are basically a big long prep course for your step one. It's perfectly possibly to pass all your classes, but then to fail the test because you didn't retain enough. Now most schools (maybe all in the US) will let you retake a failed step 1, but that just basically means that you're going to make up all that studying you didn't do in a very condensed period of incredible misery. And at the end of it you're still going to have a score/match that no one envies.

Finally: rather than P = MD, it might be more accurate to think P = FP. Which is fine if you end up wanting to be an FP but you're really not going to know what you're going to want to do at the start of your first year

Good summary as to how screwing around can affect you down the line:

http://www.studentdoctor.net/pandabearmd/2006/03/17/the-residency-match-part-1/

Good info. However, I'm probably going to be doing the MD/PhD program (I'm more interested in research anyways)... so I'm going to be banking on a good/decent Step I score and solid research to get me into a good residency.

You guys think a PhD will help significantly/overshadow poor grades?

 

[Perrotfish]

Good info. However, I'm probably going to be doing the MD/PhD program (I'm more interested in research anyways)... so I'm going to be banking on a good/decent Step I score and solid research to get me into a good residency.

You guys think a PhD will help significantly/overshadow poor grades?

I think the point your missing here is that studying during your first two years is studying for your Step 1. If you get 70s on everything you can't 'bank' on a good score.

If you had a good step one and good research, yes that would probably overshadow your year 1-2 grades. Very few programs care very much about your grades from those two years, and fewer and fewer schools even report them. However that's mainly because they are instead looking at the standardized tests that are (according to them) a better reflection of what you learned in those two years.

 

[Mr hawkings]

Good info. However, I'm probably going to be doing the MD/PhD program (I'm more interested in research anyways)... so I'm going to be banking on a good/decent Step I score and solid research to get me into a good residency.

You guys think a PhD will help significantly/overshadow poor grades?

I dont know how easy it would be to go from barely passing classes to a solid step 1 score.

By the way, what specialty are you thinking of going into. It sounds like you are more into bench research.

 

[bodonid]

you can get a C in med school by studying one or two hours a day. I have friends that do just that.

 

[han14tra]

First, this depends on your school/your intelligence/the course you're in. There will be some courses a monkey could pass and some where a significant number of students are worried about not repeating. There will be that guy in your class who can watch TV all day, drink every night, and still get an 80 minimum on every test while others while work 60 hr weeks to pull 70s. Some schools (mine) have essentially a 0% fail out rate while others fail 5% or on rare occasion even 10% of their matriculants over a 4 year period. So any estimates are necessarily going to be an average. That being said...

On average: Maybe 30 hrs/week, including those hours cramming towards the end.

With a reasonable margin of safety: 40-50 hrs/ week. Just barely passing on average means failing a significant percentage of your courses, and your goal is not to fail any. If you're determined to do the very least possible I'd say your best bet would be to study reasonably hard for the first test or two in a course, and then dial down the effort after you've goten a couple of 80s and only need a 55 average on everything that's left. Of course, some schools have started to realize students are doing this and have changed to a 1 test per course system whenever feasible. Basically the fewer tests per course the more you're going to need to study to maintan a reasonable margin of safety.

But remember: Your first two years are basically a big long prep course for your step one. It's perfectly possibly to pass all your classes, but then to fail the test because you didn't retain enough. Now most schools (maybe all in the US) will let you retake a failed step 1, but that just basically means that you're going to make up all that studying you didn't do in a very condensed period of incredible misery. And at the end of it you're still going to have a score/match that no one envies.

Finally: rather than P = MD, it might be more accurate to think P = FP. Which is fine if you end up wanting to be an FP but you're really not going to know what you're going to want to do at the start of your first year

Good summary as to how screwing around can affect you down the line:

http://www.studentdoctor.net/pandabearmd/2006/03/17/the-residency-match-part-1/

FPs need to know more than any specialist. i realize it's not a competitive residency choice, which means you don't need as high of a board score. However, you'd really be screwing your patients over in the long run if you don't know your stuff.

 

[ChiDO]

FPs need to know more than any specialist. i realize it's not a competitive residency choice, which means you don't need as high of a board score. However, you'd really be screwing your patients over in the long run if you don't know your stuff.

I'll agree the FPs need a very broad and general understanding of medicine, unfortunately, there is a lot of stuff that you learn in years 1-2 that probably won't apply.

Obviously, if you PASS medical school and your boards you are QUALIFIED to practice medicine even if you had the 99% avg in your classes or 70%.

To answer the OP question. Passing your classes is very very doable. Doing very well in classes (90%+), takes a lot of work.

 

[Lanvin]

You may want to set your sights on just barely passing but most people with this attitude end up just barely failing. If you think that you will just study 80% of the material, you will find that you end up with 60% mastered which isn't enough to get you through first year let alone second year or boards.

In general, the difference between the person who is first in the class and the person who is last in the class is less than 10 percentage points. Most people who find themselves just barely passing worked to try to pass by a substantial margin. Sure P =MD and in the end, you do the best that you can.

After all, it's professional school and like Marine Corps Boot Camp, everyone has to go over the wall. Some people will clear it by 6 feet and some will scrape on the way over but every goes over the wall or you won't become a physician regardless of your school or your intelligence. In the end, your work ethic determines your fate. Shoot for a bare pass and you get a bare fail.

I agree, don't use P=MD as an excuse to not work hard. That's a very dangerous line to walk.

 

[slowbutsteady]

I still study to get an A, but with MUCH less pressure. I would be a wreck without pass/fail, to be honest.

How can anyone adjust their studying to "just get a C?" I don't know how to do that.

Also, I am very happy if/when I get an A, even though it doesn't count. Makes me feel like I am learning this stuff!!!!!!!

 

[mjl1717]

I agree, don't use P=MD as an excuse to not work hard. That's a very dangerous line to walk.

Agree, working to be mediocre and below is just plain lame especially in this arena..

 

[labwork]

Ultimately your grades don't matter (as long as you don't fail). Residency is the name of the game and all they care about is your score on USMLE step 1. So don't worry about your grades, just kick butt on step 1

 

[badapplestix]

I still study to get an A, but with MUCH less pressure. I would be a wreck without pass/fail, to be honest.

How can anyone adjust their studying to "just get a C?" I don't know how to do that.

Also, I am very happy if/when I get an A, even though it doesn't count. Makes me feel like I am learning this stuff!!!!!!!

prob the best attitude

 

[cpants]

P=MD is fine, as long as you are working as hard as you can. If it something you are saying while blowing off studying to watch the NHL playoffs, not so much.

Would you want a doctor who works just hard enough to keep you alive, or one who works as hard as possible to get the best possible outcome?

 

[Perrotfish]

FPs need to know more than any specialist. i realize it's not a competitive residency choice, which means you don't need as high of a board score. However, you'd really be screwing your patients over in the long run if you don't know your stuff. __________________

Which has nothing to do with what I'm saying. If you barely pass, the system is set up so that you'll be an FP and not an EM doc or a neurosurgeon. The fact that primary care shouldn't be the default choice doesn't change the fact that it is.

Also, I am very happy if/when I get an A, even though it doesn't count. Makes me feel like I am learning this stuff!!!!!!!

There will be times when your learning and grades conflict. For example there is a class in my school which has occasional extra credit essays. Absolutely and completely useless essays. Grades don't matter that much, so I don't do 'em.

you can get a C in med school by studying one or two hours a day. I have friends that do just that.

I've increasingly realized how many of my med school associates who say they do this are lying about it. Either they're not counting some of their studying as studying (2 hrs a day + going to every class) or they're flat out lying, or occasionally they're being honest and eventually fail a class. I'm not saying you need to break yourself here, but 4-5 hours each weekday seems to be a respectable minimum. Of course there are some students that have either had the material before or are just plain smarter than me.

 

[bodonid]

I've increasingly realized how many of my med school associates who say they do this are lying about it. Either they're not counting some of their studying as studying (2 hrs a day + going to every class) or they're flat out lying, or occasionally they're being honest and eventually fail a class. I'm not saying you need to break yourself here, but 4-5 hours each weekday seems to be a respectable minimum. Of course there are some students that have either had the material before or are just plain smarter than me.

I know these people very well, and one plays online poker all day and one plays world of warcraft. I know for a fact that they never study. They come to me two days before every test to get the rundown. They know absolutely nothing when we start. I teach them a little because it helps me learn... and they get exactly what they need to pass. Which apparently is not much.

 

[ChiDO]

I've increasingly realized how many of my med school associates who say they do this are lying about it. Either they're not counting some of their studying as studying (2 hrs a day + going to every class) or they're flat out lying, or occasionally they're being honest and eventually fail a class. I'm not saying you need to break yourself here, but 4-5 hours each weekday seems to be a respectable minimum. Of course there are some students that have either had the material before or are just plain smarter than me.

With 4-5 hours of studying each day (outside of going to class - which does not count as studying), I feel as you should be getting As. Most of the people I know, who study 4-5 each day (8 hours on weekends) are in the top 10-20% of the class.

My friends that I know are around 75-80% test avg study about 1-2 hours.

I guess it really comes down to how well you retain the information and your basic intellect. It really doesn't matter about the QUANTITY of hours but QUALITY. If you can go through all 10 lectures that you've had so far in 2 hours and know them pretty well...awesome...others might take them 5 hours.

Basically, you will find out how hard you need to study when that first test tolls around. For us, it was anatomy, so it was a big wakeup call for a lot of people (ie. ****, I studied 2 hours each day and got a 73% or good, I studied 4-5 hours each night and got a 94%).

 

[bodonid]

Basically, you will find out how hard you need to study when that first test tolls around. For us, it was anatomy, so it was a big wakeup call for a lot of people (ie. ****, I studied 2 hours each day and got a 73% or good, I studied 4-5 hours each night and got a 94%).

heh... our 1st test was cell biology. I was a CBIO major, so I got a 98.5 without studying. Then I thought med school would be easy, and I got tripped up bigtime by the 2nd test. (upper extremity)

 

[Law2Doc]

Hello everyone,

I'm wondering how easy it is simply to pass classes in medical school? From what I gather, the amount of work it takes to go from an HP to an H has a more exponential relationship than to go from a F to a P.

For those of you who are firm believers in the C=MD theory, how much studying do you guys put in the first two years to get by?

Thanks for the input!

Totally depends on the school -- at a couple of places everybody historically passes every class and nobody ever retakes anything, while at others a couple of people end up failing each course, maybe the whole year. In general you run a huge risk trying to skate by doing the minimum -- it's not like you can do X amount of work to be confident you are going to pass, where X is some amount less than Y which would get you to a HP. In most cases, if you shoot for the HP, you can be confident you will get a P, but if you shoot for the P, you can get burned bad. And more than that, while the grades during the first two years don't matter a heck of a lot, the material itself does -- you are going to see it again on Step 1 and in rotations. So you are shooting yourself in the foot trying to get by on the minimum during the first couple of years, only to have to work harder further down the line, when time is more of a premium. So really really bad way to look at med school. Go into it whole hog, or not at all. You should be shooting for the HP/H range every step of the way -- in most cases it won't work out that way, but at least you can be confident to be above the P/F line. If you do your best and come up short, then you can smile and say, "hey at least C = MD". But it is a shield not a sword -- something you can fall back on, but not something you ever want to shoot for. Plain and simple, medicine is not a field for those who are happy with getting the minimum.

 

[cpants]

I know these people very well, and one plays online poker all day and one plays world of warcraft. I know for a fact that they never study. They come to me two days before every test to get the rundown. They know absolutely nothing when we start. I teach them a little because it helps me learn... and they get exactly what they need to pass. Which apparently is not much.

There is a continuum of abilities in med school as there is in any field. There are people who can do absolutely no work and still pass and there are people who need to work their asses off to pass. The slackers are doing their future patients a disservice. With those gifts they shouldn't be just passing, and they aren't learning all that they could be learning. I guess it depends on your outlook going into med school. Are you here just to become a doctor, or are you here to be the best doctor you can be?

 

[bodonid]

There is a continuum of abilities in med school as there is in any field. There are people who can do absolutely no work and still pass and there are people who need to work their asses off to pass. The slackers are doing their future patients a disservice. With those gifts they shouldn't be just passing, and they aren't learning all that they could be learning. I guess it depends on your outlook going into med school. Are you here just to become a doctor, or are you here to be the best doctor you can be?

My motivation comes from my wallet. Without a (strict) 3.5 GPA requirement, I don't think I would study nearly as much as I do. But I'll never know for sure.

 

[unsung]

P=MD is fine, as long as you are working as hard as you can. If it something you are saying while blowing off studying to watch the NHL playoffs, not so much.

Would you want a doctor who works just hard enough to keep you alive, or one who works as hard as possible to get the best possible outcome?

Yeah, no kidding. What's wrong with some people? For people who don't want to "work that hard", what do they prefer to spend their time doing? Getting drunk off their a**es?

It's not like undergrad, where some people are actually working part-time or even full-time, and so can't focus all their energies toward school. We've all got loans that covers our butts while we attend school full-time. What a cushy deal is that? How many people out in the regular dead end 9 to 5 world would give their right arm for that kind of chance that we have?

Now if some people are just raw geniuses and can ace everything with minimum effort, all power to them if they want to lie in bed all day or party all night. But the folks who don't actually score well and slack anyway just to get a passing score... that's just immature and pathetic, imo.

 

[Perrotfish]

With 4-5 hours of studying each day (outside of going to class - which does not count as studying), I feel as you should be getting As. Most of the people I know, who study 4-5 each day (8 hours on weekends) are in the top 10-20% of the class

I count going to class as studying, considering I can trade those hours for studying by not going, which is what I do. Basically I'm going for the minimum total hours of effort. I meant weekdays only. So 20-30 hours a week of effort.

Also you're saying that several days before an exam your friends come to you and start cramming. That's not studying 1-2 hours/day, that's studying 1-2 hours per day for the first part of the block and then cramming. Now I don't know how far apart your tests are but ours are every two weeks. 2 hrs/day + every waking moment for 3 days isn't actually a small time investment.

And even still, while someone putting in 20 hrs of class and 30 hours of studying a week should be doing well, top 20% is still a little generous. Consistently in the top 50%, sure.

 

[WellWornLad]

Every week this issue comes up. Every freaking week.

It is completely possible to honor all your courses with 20 hours/week of learning.
It is completely possible to fail out with 100 hours/week spent learning.

You probably have a good idea where you are on that spectrum. No one else here does.

 

[HPSPpayissues]

My motivation comes from my wallet. Without a (strict) 3.5 GPA requirement, I don't think I would study nearly as much as I do. But I'll never know for sure.

elaborate on this. Only about 5% of our class is getting 3.5+;
about 90%+ of us would fail out if we attend your school
What school do you go to?

 

[HPSPpayissues]

for me, a couple hours of studying alone was good enough for B's. For A's I had to work really hard. Some people I know study over 40 hours every week and still does worst than me or BARELY barely passes. Some do much less than me and still get A's. In my opinion, 70% of the students work very hard and get HP or B's, some A's, and the other 30% split into two groups similar to what I described earlier.

 

[bodonid]

elaborate on this. Only about 5% of our class is getting 3.5+;
about 90%+ of us would fail out if we attend your school
What school do you go to?

It is a merit scholarship, not a requirement to advance. I think most people that get my scholarship lose it. I will end the year with a 3.66

 

[flaahless]

every week this issue comes up. Every freaking week.

It is completely possible to honor all your courses with 20 hours/week of learning.
It is completely possible to fail out with 100 hours/week spent learning.

You probably have a good idea where you are on that spectrum. No one else here does.

+1

 

[Law2Doc]

...
You probably have a good idea where you are on that spectrum. No one else here does.

No, he probably has NO idea where he will be on the spectrum until after a few med school exams. Most likely people who ask this question greatly overestimate their abilities. The folks who think -- "I'll just work hard enough to pass" are the ones who find out they have to work harder than most just to pass. Because the attitude tends not to be that pervasive in the folks who get A's without even trying -- they still think they are going to do similarly in med school. It's actually very hard to keep your head above water if you aren't paddling that hard -- many people who try this end up with a lung full of water.

 

[Doctor J]

You may want to set your sights on just barely passing but most people with this attitude end up just barely failing.

This advice is true but only if you are very, very early in your first year.

"Most people" settle into a rhythm of studying the right number of hours for the material given, and can figure out how much effort they need to put in to achieve their goals. The problem is that most of us, even though we know where we -should- stand, are unwilling to settle with it and thus work too hard for marginal returns.

I believe a lot, more than people want to believe, is dependent on natural talent.

 

[badasshairday]

It isn't easy to pass, but at the same time, it isn't that hard to not pass.

 

[Dral]

Formula for Med school:

Study as much as you can.

Ok, not really a formula, but just a statement. As others said, set the sights on step1 and trust that your school tries to prepare you for it. My friends and I all did pretty well on step 1 and I can tell you that none of us are geniuses...it's all about putting in as much work as possible. Unless you know you want to go into an easier field that doesn't require stellar step1 scores, you will do yourself a disservice by not studying as much as you can tolerate....and by tolerate I mean when you feel like stopping, you bite the bullet and keep going until you almost pass out.

 

[SpookyDoc]

Short answer: Very

Passing is easy as paying attention in class and not studying, depending on your school. No matter who you are, however, you can be the top of your class if you know what you are doing.

 

[coldweatherblue]

yeah I'll reiterate that aiming for the passing mark is a really bad idea. Failing med school classes should be the #1 thing you avoid the first two years. if you're close to failing, study 18 hrs a day everyday, whatever it takes.

OTOH I'm definitely chill about grades, don't really care who is higher rank, etc. Before we started my goal was to stay at least 20% above passing so that I wouldn't be as stressed out before exams. Like a cushion... some classes ended up a little lower, some a little higher but overall I'm really happy that I'm not close to failing anything.. yet. haha.

look MS1/MS2 are two FULL years you have to devote to learning medical science. You don't have to work; you're only job is to study. Since at the moment most of us know absolutely nothing about clinical medicine and what's going to be required of us when we hit the wards, why not just bust ass and learn as much as you possibly can? I know it's hard and I definitely struggle with motivation sometimes but still it's good to remember that this is really the ONLY time where your only job is to study, so take advantage of it..

 

[bodonid]

alright, lets look at the people who fail. only one, maybe two people per year. Do you know how far down the gaussian distribution these guys are? Medical schools don't want people to fail.

But how about another example? I know a guy who passed every course. Barely. He is a fourth year and is crazy about psych. He didn't match. In psych. How is that possible? Because he did what you are considering.

 

[labwork]

I would study for one grade above what you want. If you want to pass study for a high pass, if you want a high pass study for honors...etc....

 

[tideleonheart]

Short answer: Very

Passing is easy as paying attention in class and not studying, depending on your school. No matter who you are, however, you can be the top of your class if you know what you are doing.

I have to greatly disagree with this... maybe for the last test of a block where you already know the context of the material, but there's no way you could keep that up for a whole block.

 

[bodonid]

I have to greatly disagree with this... maybe for the last test of a block where you already know the context of the material, but there's no way you could keep that up for a whole block.

i disagree too, but with the other part. I think you can pay close attention in class and get away with not studying much, but I think your max might not let you get to the top of the class. I know several people that study alot, but they still can't get As routinely. The person that is at the top of our class missed like three questions in a whole module. I'm pretty sure she's the only one in our class capable of that.

 

[novastorm]

Passing is easy, A/Honors/the like is where the effort is. It also depends what kind of curriculum you have, if you have lots of class time and go to class, and absorb well, you can probably pass without much work, less class you need to study more (how on earth will you learn what you have never seen?). However I would say "trying" for A/Honors will likely benefit you come step 1.

 

[Law2Doc]

... However I would say "trying" for A/Honors will likely benefit you come step 1.

I think this is the short answer. Even if you don't feel you need Honors, you are going to need to know that info somewhere along the line. Either on Step 1, or when being pimped during rotations. Medicine is not very forgiving to the dude who wants to skate by. No third year attending is going to be too impressed with you when he asks a basic science question and you shrug and say "P=MD". It doesn't work that way -- in most cases you will earn yourself a night of preparing a presentation for the team on that very topic, something you could have avoided if you spent the extra hour in the basic science years. A little extra work now saves you a big headache later. So plan to work as hard as possible in med school. It pays off even if you just want the MD.