How hard is gen surgery for a DO?

[newenglandlobster508]

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[JustPlainBill]

Without being a wiseguy and assuming you're not a troll -- there are a whole lot of threads on this very topic and some are recent -- being a D.O. is not a bar from any specialty -- what is a bar would be the student's ability and how well they work/play with others -- the real key is convincing the powers that be that you can pass a board certification since this reflects on the residency program -- if the PD doesn't think you can do -- and he/she will look at your performance in medical school and how you fit in with his program -- you can forget getting into that particular residency.

Medicine and residency are not about what your degree is unless you're talking about some very selective academic positions which I personally would not want to be a part of anyway, it's about convincing people that you're capable of passing the boards -- if you fail, it makes them look bad and impacts their lives in terms of reputation and money --- so they're selective -- oh, it'll be dressed up as a public safety issue -- but don't be fooled.....

 

[sizillyd]

Did you leave the Caribbean voluntarily or were you dismissed? Hopefully someone else can provide some insight on how Adcoms may view this situation.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

If you're worried about how difficult the MCAT is, I have to say your chances at gen surg with either an MD or a DO are bleak. As @JustPlainBill stated, your degree will not matter that much unless you are applying to very selective academic programs, but you must get a pretty decent USMLE Step I score, which is a standardized test like the MCAT, just dealing with basically everything you've learned in the first two years of medical school.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

Also, don't call it Osteopathy, the AOA won't like you.

 

[newenglandlobster508]

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[newenglandlobster508]

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[dozitgetchahi]

Not sure when you took the MCAT, but the MCAT has changed significantly now. I believe a 30 equivalent is around a 507-508. The MCAT is much more complicated for non biology majors, as it incorporates several upper divs. I took the old mcat my freshman year of undergrad without having taken organic chemistry, cell biology, and electrical physics and pulled off a 26 (10 B, 9 P, 7 V). I did it primarily as an assessment before MCAT classes because most of those organizations manipulate the level of difficulty of their practice tests

Anyway, from the time I spent at SGU, Ive come to understand the USMLE is a much more different exam. and it is, several students who do perform poorly on the mcat even after studying, manage perform okay on the USMLE (mainly the Caribbean schools) . Sure the exam tests your knowledge on your first two years of medical school, but its formatted to certain standards, alot more memorization, and alot less mixed passages.

The droves and droves of carib students who post here having failed >1 of the steps (sometimes more than once) would seem to speak against this. Real stats on this are going to be hard to come by due to the huge dropout rates from the carib schools.

In fact, the number of carib students who manage to fail 2CK always surprises me given how easy that test is relative to step 1.

All this said, your stats aren't terrible and you may have a decent shot at DO... that said, many adcoms aren't likely to look fondly upon what will likely be seen as a failed carib run even though you left by your own accord.

 

[newenglandlobster508]

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[IslandStyle808]

If surgery is pretty feasible for a DO then there are ways around it, although Ive been told time and time again that with the explanation I have provided and the little time I spent at the Carribbean schools, decent grades I achieved there ~ 85% it should not affect me. In light of this, if it does then there are post bacc programs which are pretty much a get a XYZ GPA and youre in (VCOM comes to mind). But if I can land any acceptance this cycle it would be great.

It will affect you, because you made a choice to attend a school and decided to drop out. Adcoms have to consider a lot of things when picking people and in a sellers market, it can invite a lot more bad perceptions than good. They could look at your application and think "well this person quit medical school, so would he quit our school as well?" There are a lot of presumptions they could make that will hurt your chances (true for even first time applicants).

I am not saying you won't get an interview. What I am saying is that it will hurt the amount of schools that you have a chance with. It won't be at the same level as a person who never went the caribbean and who has the same stats as yourself. Just be prepared for this.

As for general surgery, it is doable for a DO. It will be more of a uphill battle coming from a DO school. The 2014 NRMP PD survey has stated for ACGME programs that around 50% interview and rank DOs. However, one also has to take into consideration that there are AOA (DO) residencies as well, which can up the of matching. So this gives a rough idea of how tough it is to match.

 

[newenglandlobster508]

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[racerwad]

I left voluntarily, quite early on as well. I applied to the DO cycle last year and was waitlisted at 4 or 5 schools, I applied late november'ish. So I dont think the Caribbean history works negativley for me. I shadowed at Touro CA and was told it was a good decision to make, and as long as you explain it, (I did) should not affect me.

You say you don't think that your Caribbean history isn't a negative for you, but you were waitlisted at "4 to 5" schools. It obviously had some effect, otherwise you'd be in somewhere.

If you really did have that many waitlists, it does suggest that there is something that programs found appealing. My advice would be to contact those programs directly and ask them how you can improve your chances for the next cycle. They know all about you and have no opinions or axes to grind. If even only a few schools respond, I would think their insight would be invaluable.

 

[chibaddie]

Your post in the pre-DO forum is giving off such a different story. And you sound like you're already well on your way into the cycle, according to that thread.

 

[Mr Roboto]

I took the old mcat my freshman year of undergrad without having taken organic chemistry, cell biology, and electrical physics and pulled off a 26 (10 B, 9 P, 7 V). I did it primarily as an assessment before MCAT classes because most of those organizations manipulate the level of difficulty of their practice tests.

Trololol

 

[newenglandlobster508]

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[newenglandlobster508]

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[newenglandlobster508]

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[Goro]

About 5% of my grads go into general surgery residencies. You can google matchlists for other COMs to get an idea of their success rate. For MD grads, it's about 10-15% across the board. I think this says something about surgeons.

You will have a difficult time getting accepted at my school because we don't like Carib rejects or refugees. You could have gone to a DO school the first time around, but the MD initials were more important to you then, weren't they?

I think after spending hours shadowing multiple physicians over the past 3 years, filing my own medical device patents, and spending a single semester in a carribbean school I would like to try to get into surgery, just general. I enjoy being in the operating room and working with anatomy.

I am currently interning at a medical device company and when I see the device being used on a daily basis I am pretty confident that is what I want to get into

Is surgery a long shot for an Osteopathic student?
Part of the reason among other things, when I left the Caribbean system, was to have a few more chances with specialties besides FM and IM.

I graduated college at a really young age, 20. And if it means spending a year or 2 extra improving course grades it is worth it. I am hovering at a 3.4 gpa, and my sgp is creeping up to 3.3

I had one D in a biology course (Cell and molec biology) when my mother passed away and missed the final .
I am retaking that course and most of my other science classes are B, B+ and A-.

MD is kind of difficult to get into now with the new mcat being a much tougher exam and their stats. Is osteopathy a reasonable route to get into gen surgery with?

 

[TheFutureFatMan]

 

[newenglandlobster508]

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[TheFutureFatMan]

I love how anal the osteopathic medical students can get over their title. No it wasnt. I started college at 17, and I graduated in 3 years, earlier on I mentioned I had a parent pass away early on during my undergraduate years. I dont have a whole lot of time or money to survive on my own. So I had to go with my family's permission financing. They kept talking about how if I take a year or two off, I am losing income from my life, which is true.
Anyway, things change over time. Also, she passed away during my second year of college, my GPA wasnt so hot at the time, until I took a couple of retakes in my senior year and wiped away those missed finals which had D's and F's in the courses with A's and b+'s.

Anyway thanks for your input

You asked for input, no one asked for the litany of reasons why you're not interested in the input. Goro has a unique perspective, relative to most of the people who comment on these threads. Js.

 

[newenglandlobster508]

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[Goro]

You made your bed, now lie in it.

I am responding to his comment on "You could have gone to a DO schools the first time around, but the MD initials were more important to you then, weren't they?" Anyway, you should probably get back to your trolling on other threads rather than try to stir an argument on a forum, "medical student"

 

[newenglandlobster508]

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[TheFutureFatMan]

Okay "Pre Medical" (not sure why we're putting titles like that in quotes, but hey...I'll get on board).

Whether you like it or not, the high drop rates in carib schools are going to set people up to make assumptions about your application. The first assumption everyone is going to make is probably the same one that SDN will make. You washed out of a carib school. If they take a closer look and it turns out your grades were good, then cool. That hopefully won't be too harmful.

Surgery is not a LONG shot for a DO student. It's a long shot period. Score high on your boards, don't be a jackass on your rotations, stay hungry and aggressive and you have a chance just like anyone else. Carib experience puts a target on your head. Your justification for leaving because you desire more opportunity is probably the best you're going to come up with. So that works fine.

I WILL say that no one is going to give a rat's rear about the incentive you had from your family to go immediately, even if it meant carib. You're a grown-ass adult. Figure out how to act like one. In the same breath, your family tragedy is awful. That truly sucks. But bad things inevitably find us all, and no one really cares. I would stay far far away from that topic. There are plenty of other reasons to make adcoms uncomfortable or concerned, how you handle life pressures, terrible as they may be, should not be one of them.

Consider a post-bacc, your scores are still mediocre, though doable depending on the rest of your application. However, your application has flags, given the carib experience.

One D isn't going to kill you, especially if you're retaking it.


Medical school in general is difficult to get into. One of the interesting things that I hear admissions faculty say about DO applicants is that they can typically get a good sense if some one is applying there because they think they won't have a shot at MD schools. No one wants to be anyone's last option at the dance, so instead of whining, you should probably find a good way to respond to those concerns.

Also. Dingus. Lots of faculty on SDN. Faculties like to talk, even if they're at different schools. Lots of detail in your post. Next time, I would leave it at "How do DO applicants fare at matching into surgical specialties?" Juuuuusssst sayin.

 

[coffee-doc]

Not interested in some advice from a salty redneck in the midwest who probably isnt what he says he is, on this forum. Ignored

damn you're an angry little fella. regretting a few decisions I see?

from our point of view on SDN, it seems like you wanted to take the easy route. you substituted delayed gratification for immediate gratification like an 8 year old. there will be thousands of applicants with the same stats as yours, and most of them don't use a sob story as a crutch either.

 

[TheFutureFatMan]

damn you're an angry little fella. regretting a few decisions I see?

LOL

 

[hallowmann]

Spent fall semester in SGU 2015. Filled out my applications and had them submitted November. Applied to a decent handful of schools. Received secondaries from most. It was my first time applying through the application cycle for any medical school, since Caribbean applications are simple enough, its almost like filling out a survey.

I actually believe you'll be accepted at some DO school, maybe even more than one. The bigger problem that I see, and hopefully its one you improve (or have improved) is your lack of good research and decision making, which seems to have been present throughout your undergrad time (it also doesn't help that you seem to get easily offended by random critical postings on an online board). You really need to recognize that you made multiple mistakes along the way, and you need to figure out how you're going to prevent yourself from making similar mistakes in the future, especially if you want something that's moderately competitive like surgery.

Your first, pretty huge mistake was taking the MCAT as a Freshman "primarily as an assessment before MCAT classes". What? That's ridiculous, and had you bothered to ask anyone with even moderate knowledge of the process, they would have told you that its a stupid idea. Who cares if the classes have diagnostics that are weighted differently? You basically hurt yourself by taking the MCAT when you weren't prepared, getting a score that is likely much less than what you were capable of getting, and for no benefit. Don't tell this story to anyone. Don't say anything about it in personal statements, on interviews, anything, because it will demonstrate a lack of both insight and good decision making.

Your next huge mistake was going to the Carib without even attempting to apply in the US. There is absolutely no reason for you to have done this. Fortunately, you recognized this mistake before wasting a ton of money and shooting yourself in the foot further. The thing that bothers me most about this decision is that you cite the simplicity of Carib apps as one of the reasons you applied. Do you want to go to medical school? Do you want to be a surgeon? You're not going to get there by trying to take shortcuts or being too lazy to fill out an app.

Anyway, you are past these 2 huge decision making mistakes. Hopefully that's the end of it. Apply early and very broadly given the Carib redflag. Apply to where your MCAT will still be accepted, but realistically you should strongly consider retaking the MCAT if you think you can do well/better on it.

As far as surgery is concerned, don't even worry about it right now. Currently you have a 0% chance of being a surgeon. As a Carib graduate you'll have a minuscule chance, and as a DO you'll have a low, but still possible shot.

No one will care about your past once you're in medical school. You'll basically get to start fresh. Work and study hard, make better decisions, make connections, work on social skills and getting people to like you, and you'll put yourself in the best position for GS.

 

[NurWollen]

Not interested in some advice from a salty redneck in the midwest who probably isnt what he says he is, on this forum. Ignored

Funny how attacking people for being black, hispanic, female, gay, muslim, christian, etc., is finally recognized as the bigotry that it is, but disparaging millions of people based on the region they call home is totally fine.

Take your snobby ignorance elsewhere.

 

[newenglandlobster508]

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[TheFutureFatMan]

Here is the case: If youre a medical student I think you should probably be focusing on more important things than responding to MY post.

 

[newenglandlobster508]

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[Roxas]

 

[Goro]

You made me bellow out loud with laughter with this one, Fatman!

View attachment 205462

 

[hallowmann]

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Since you seem like a reasonable person, I will communicate with you. My decision to go to the Caribbean is not a simple short decision like everyone else. I have met several students in the Carrib, who made the choice for the titles of MD over DO. One of them had a 3.8 and a 29 MCAT. He went to a very easy undergraduate program and was able to be in the middle of his class and still pull off such wonderful stats. Not to mention took a few courses to improve the MCAT score. That life style isn't the same for everyone

In my application I have chosen to provide 6 letters of recommendation and primarily in the sciences, Why? Well when you read them, in addition to "JoeShmoeDoeBillyBobWoe is a fantastic student, excellent critical thinking skills, yaddayadayada" you will see, he/she scored " rank 6 out of 56" in my course, and I decided to reward him with a B" Wait you mean only 10 % of your class gets A, A-, and B+? We can argue all we want but different schools have different levels of difficulty. I felt attending a private institution with the descriptions provided when I enrolled, would seem like a fair opportunity to complete a premed program, and EARN decent grades, and apply to medical schools. It is not the case with my school and it is portrayed infact, the exact opposite with false hopes and dreams. I feel most sympathetic towards students who attend UC Berkeley because the school in it is a dream crusher for many premeds who-probably could be come a good physician and have proved they are good students. Us MD schools are so darn difficult to get into, and they make it harder and harder every year, does that mean that all the students who didnt get in cant be good doctors? No.

Anyway this is just a sob story about some faults, but that isnt the reason I chose Caribbean. Part of it was financial and family pressure, (and I think for any medical student or resident who has to deal with student loans, being offered by your family, 300 K for all your medical school expenses, free of cost is very very tempting). Further, I want to be able to combine my use of devices and engineering and w.e medical degree I obtain to develop more medical devices. I found the one semester I spent at the Caribbean school anatomy course,( however bad it may be) to be extremely valuable to developing new devices and require a medical education to excel and continue. A DO degree is a partial sacrifice, I think Caribbean is as well, because in the many DO schools I researched it is quite difficult to be able to partner with other "within university institutions" for research.

And finally, I want freedom to practice in several other nations later in life. While DO is still approved for programs like doctors without borders etc, I cant just walk into certain countries like India, Thailand, African nations, and open up a practice. (Some of the countries in my list may have changed their policies but you understand what I mean).

To me, I do appreciate osteopathic medicine, and from my opportunity to shadow at the school I got a chance to, I liked how they cared about the patient as a whole, but in the end it is just a degree. I want to become a DOCTOR, not a medical student, its just part of the process. My story is unique, Im not the standard student juggling between DO and MD, and Caribbean and medical school on the Mars because "I want to help people". No. I have a different motive. (although helping people is on my list).

As far as my MCAT goes, your opinion is your opinion, and I will take your advice and consider studying prior to taking an exam, but I am happy with the choice I made, I regret not retaking it while the old MCAT was still available but it is something that can be amended.

And as far as researching my decisions, I can only do so much, and I do, a thorough job of it. You will receive an equal number of conflicting stories from all sources and evaluating it, is not entirely possible, not until you experience everything on your own.

You don't seem to understand some of what I was saying. My point was that if your research made you do things like take the MCAT before you studied/were ready for it and start at SGU before even trying for US medical schools, then that research was insufficient and severely misguided.

For example, you would have known that a Caribbean MD is not actually the same as a US MD, and there are in fact many countries (like India and many African countries) whose medical boards do not recognize a medical degree from SGU. Thailand appears to recognize it, but not DOs. India recognizes DOs, but not SGU MDs.

By research I didn't mean simply talking to random people about their experiences. That's not necessarily research. You could easily find relatively objective data on a lot of issues.

Your story about a school that doesn't hand out A's is honestly not all that unique. I went to such a school. I also studied for the MCAT and scored above the 90th percentile on it. Had you studied, done well, and applied, you'd likely have at least gotten US MD interviews.

That all said, given your description of what you want to do, you probably would be/would have been better off doing a MS in Anatomy or Physiology rather than pursuing a medical degree. I actually know a few people with similar aspirations (probably not as unique as you think, but then again I have many tech contacts). A couple of them left med school in the middle and may not actually return. To me it seems like a waste of money, but if you want to pursue medicine, you certainly can.

 

[newenglandlobster508]

I left voluntarily, quite early on as well. I applied to the DO cycle last year and was waitlisted at 4 or 5 schools, I applied late november'ish. So I dont think the Caribbean history works negativley for me. I shadowed at Touro CA and was told it was a good decision to make, and as long as you explain it, (I did) should not affect me.

You don't seem to understand some of what I was saying. My point was that if your research made you do things like take the MCAT before you studied/were ready for it and start at SGU before even trying for US medical schools, then that research was insufficient and severely misguided.

For example, you would have known that a Caribbean MD is not actually the same as a US MD, and there are in fact many countries (like India and many African countries) whose medical boards do not recognize a medical degree from SGU. Thailand appears to recognize it, but not DOs. India recognizes DOs, but not SGU MDs.

By research I didn't mean simply talking to random people about their experiences. That's not necessarily research. You could easily find relatively objective data on a lot of issues.

Your story about a school that doesn't hand out A's is honestly not all that unique. I went to such a school. I also studied for the MCAT and scored above the 90th percentile on it. Had you studied, done well, and applied, you'd likely have at least gotten US MD interviews.

That all said, given your description of what you want to do, you probably would be/would have been better off doing a MS in Anatomy or Physiology rather than pursuing a medical degree. I actually know a few people with similar aspirations (probably not as unique as you think, but then again I have many tech contacts). A couple of them left med school in the middle and may not actually return. To me it seems like a waste of money, but if you want to pursue medicine, you certainly can.

My GPA at the end of my second year (3 year undergrad), would have been probably a 2.9 I think. I had about 20 units of courses maybe a little more of D's and F's. I was teetering over being able to get into a school like SGU. (although I know now SGU will pretty much take anyone with a pulse honestly). I DID do my research. And I HAVE been aware that a Caribbean MD is not the same as a US MD since probably a week after I took my first MCAT. At the same time I was also aware that there HAVE been students who have gotten into general surgery and a decent number from SGU. My second favorite option is internal medicine+ specialty in something device related (cardiology, neuro, etc). So at the time with all the FALSE promises SGU provides, (And I mean these people lie from their teeth about class sizes, attrition rates, course percentages, standards of teaching, faculty credentials).

I did know what I was getting myself into for the surface statistics view of it. Did I know that SGU would be a place without electricity, sometimes air-conditioning, tons of food poisoning, faculty who may not have passed the USMLE themselves, and TA's/tutors who dont know the subject on their own? No. By the way last year SGU was approved in India, atleast according to their claims, I even have one of the entry brochures sitting near me right now. Although that is just a sample country I listed, the idea I am alluding to is when I am older and have a decent amount of financing, I would like to travel prior to retirement age and still be able to practice. Country is not relevant. The point is flexibility.

Now there is something key to remember, here, I graduated in 3 years, I just left SGU, and I AM working on studying for this MCAT. This one is a bit more disgusting because of how unorganized it has been and their standards keep shifting, but I TOO can study for this one and do well. And tbh if somehow (it is unlikely but I hope I do), pull off a stellar score, I may infact, finish off a Post-Bacc and apply to MD . I am freshly 21, as far as I know 2-3 years in, and I still am on the young/average age to BEGIN medical school. By the time I am 30, it would be nice to have completed medical school and a majority of residency ( as it would have been if I continued with SGU and managed to obtain a residency). So according to you, I may have mistakes, (And I may think differently), but the facts are the same, and now I am interested in making the correct steps towards pursuing a general surgery residency or atleast having a few more options available to me.

If I was going to perform well-and do so in sub-standard living conditions of SGU, yet be labeled as a Caribbean grad. Then I might as well work just as hard at a school in the united states and have more options open to me. People have a notion that Caribbean schools are a joke to pass through, and it isnt true. They are easy to get in, but as far as examinations and preparation goes, it takes just the same amount of effort as any american student.

As far as the MS in anatomy and physiology go, that is not true, and an MS is not worth it at all. An MS does not separate you from the other 1000000000000000000000 biology undergrads who did not continue medical school and got their MS . It does not give you clinical exposure, and it doesnt give you a career. I do have solid connections to this type of goal and advice is currently unparalleled. It is from examples of when you practice medicine you really find the shortcomings in medical technology and you have the clinical/biological and engineering knowledge to come up with NEW solutions. And of course, I dont want to be doing exactly what I am doing now in the internship, I dont want to be stuck at a desk just designing things all day. No, I want to be the consultant physician, or on board physician, who is invited by these companies for their input, testing, etc and I enjoy the hospital and OR enough to be content doing that.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Since the OP has bowed out, I will close the thread.