How hard would it be to get a faculty appointment in california right out of residency?

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snowys435

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Hi, on the east coast for residency. Really want to move to california after I'm done ( am finishing up 1st year right now). I was speaking to some co-res and they mentioned it is actually pretty hard to get a faculty appointment in cali and the process may take up to over a year and I should start networking now?

1.) is this true, and how do i go about it?
2.) Does anyone know or have comments about the the derm academic institutions in cali culture wise? Are there ones that are happy/ good to be at and ones that are not?

Thanks!

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Very easy. I know at some point a few years ago Stanford wasn't hiring, but I'm assuming that was temporary. Loma Linda seems to be perpetually desperate for faculty.

In general, academic jobs are plentiful. Due to practice consolidations/expansions, besides positions at the main campus, many academic practices have satellite clinics they need to staff (ex. UCLA). Also, most academic jobs are never posted; you need to talk to the chair to see if they are hiring.

Pay in academics is highly variable (it can be lower or substantially higher than you think, depending on the institution), but that is a different story

If you are looking to get a job at one of the top academic programs (UCSF, UCSD, etc) it helps to have a focus you can offer them. No one needs another psoriasis expert. Can you develop a specialty clinic in vulvar disease, hair, or some other field no one wants to do? Filling a niche can help a lot, particularly if you have some semblance of a publishing record to support it
 
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Awesome thanks! That's super helpful. Def looking at one of the top instittions. I am actually interested in global health but I feel that's a difficult niche especially funding wise. The only thing, I don't really have a lot of experience in the field/ or any research to support that at the moment but I'm hoping I can muster something by the end of residency. Aslo Is the salary at these institutions livable for how expensive the area is?
 
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Global health is interesting but boring. I'm not saying you can't develop this interest or that it wouldn't be valued by a department, but it doesn't generate RVUs. It's great to have a niche, but it is even better to have a niche that makes your chair money. Unless you have grants, you need to generate money.

UCSD has a leprosy clinic. There are people who specialize in refuge dermatology or rare infectious disease, but having the volume to sustain a specialty focus is difficult.

WDS scholarships are a great way to make connections. Creating a project to collaborate with people at other institutions is also a great way to make connections and publish

In terms of salary, will you be poor? No. Will you have the same financial freedom that an academic dermatologist in a place with lower cost of living has? No. It also depends where you want to live: SF is different than Sacramento.
 
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Global health is interesting but boring. I'm not saying you can't develop this interest or that it wouldn't be valued by a department, but it doesn't generate RVUs. It's great to have a niche, but it is even better to have a niche that makes your chair money. Unless you have grants, you need to generate money.

I strongly agree, if you focus on hair or nails you will be an asset, in my opinion, because most derms don’t want to deal with those patients
 
Global health is interesting but boring. I'm not saying you can't develop this interest or that it wouldn't be valued by a department, but it doesn't generate RVUs. It's great to have a niche, but it is even better to have a niche that makes your chair money. Unless you have grants, you need to generate money.

UCSD has a leprosy clinic. There are people who specialize in refuge dermatology or rare infectious disease, but having the volume to sustain a specialty focus is difficult.

WDS scholarships are a great way to make connections. Creating a project to collaborate with people at other institutions is also a great way to make connections and publish

In terms of salary, will you be poor? No. Will you have the same financial freedom that an academic dermatologist in a place with lower cost of living has? No. It also depends where you want to live: SF is different than Sacramento.


Thank you for the candid response. I understand what you're saying. Also, I am interested in medical education/community education. Was considering doing the clinician educator fellowship at penn. I guess I generally like derm but I'm not sure I'm drawn to a specific disease subject. So I'm not sure how to pick a niche within a derm subject
 
I strongly agree, if you focus on hair or nails you will be an asset, in my opinion, because most derms don’t want to deal with those patients

i actually don't mind hair and nails. But don't a lot of dermatologists do these? Any suggestions on how to go about creating this niche? I'm about finishing up first year and feel so pressured for time
 
There will never be an oversupply or hair experts.

If there is a niche your are interested in, work with the faculty expert in your department. If your program does have one, reach out to an expert and see if you could help them with a project/offer to write a review. Doing research is a quick way to master the content of a field. Again, WDS away rotation scholarships are super helpful for this

I'm not really sure what the purpose of the Penn fellowship is; you will learn on the job as you go. What is helpful is on their site, they list the specific niches of their faculty. Think about each of these niches as an option.

For some niches, the focus can easily become someone's entire practice or it may be a small percentage of their practice. Depending on volume, your niche may be something you do once a month or every day. Most "experts" still have general dermatology clinics
 
There will never be an oversupply or hair experts.

If there is a niche your are interested in, work with the faculty expert in your department. If your program does have one, reach out to an expert and see if you could help them with a project/offer to write a review. Doing research is a quick way to master the content of a field. Again, WDS away rotation scholarships are super helpful for this

I'm not really sure what the purpose of the Penn fellowship is; you will learn on the job as you go. What is helpful is on their site, they list the specific niches of their faculty. Think about each of these niches as an option.

For some niches, the focus can easily become someone's entire practice or it may be a small percentage of their practice. Depending on volume, your niche may be something you do once a month or every day. Most "experts" still have general dermatology clinics


Thank you! When do you think is a good idea to do the WDS away rotation? Application for that are due at the end of May so I feel like its not enough time to pull something together now but perhaps I could apply for one next year.

Ok, great, I will look into hair/nails a little more and see if that interests me. Do you have any suggestions for other niches that are up and coming/ not saturated?
 
Thank you! When do you think is a good idea to do the WDS away rotation? Application for that are due at the end of May so I feel like its not enough time to pull something together now but perhaps I could apply for one next year.

Ok, great, I will look into hair/nails a little more and see if that interests me. Do you have any suggestions for other niches that are up and coming/ not saturated?

I think the whole point of finding a niche is finding something you like.

I wouldn't necessarily go into it because it's up and coming and not saturated. "Non-saturated, up-and-coming niche" generally means low-paying + difficult patients (e.g. head into psychiatric derm and you would be an instant hire with a long waiting list of patients)

You want to find something that you like and that you have a passion for. If it happens to blossom into a high RVU practice, you can quickly become the expert in that area. If it doesn't, that's fine too, plenty of academic derms have general derm clinic, educator responsibilities, research grants, etc to help cover for their niche clinic. I also don't think you necessarily need to lock yourself into academics. I've had colleagues in private practice that insisted on protected time for their own niche clinic/interests. Obviously, the support will be much better in an academic environment but it can be done in private practice too.
 
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I think the whole point of finding a niche is finding something you like.

I wouldn't necessarily go into it because it's up and coming and not saturated. "Non-saturated, up-and-coming niche" generally means low-paying + difficult patients (e.g. head into psychiatric derm and you would be an instant hire with a long waiting list of patients)

You want to find something that you like and that you have a passion for. If it happens to blossom into a high RVU practice, you can quickly become the expert in that area. If it doesn't, that's fine too, plenty of academic derms have general derm clinic, educator responsibilities, research grants, etc to help cover for their niche clinic. I also don't think you necessarily need to lock yourself into academics. I've had colleagues in private practice that insisted on protected time for their own niche clinic/interests. Obviously, the support will be much better in an academic environment but it can be done in private practice too.


I was previously thinking private practice but as I go through residency more I feel like I won't like that environment? It seems so isolated without as much colleague/resident interaction. In addition, I don't want the pressure to see a lot of patient/ bring in money and see tons and tons of patients. Also I dont want to have to worry about the business aspects of being in PP. Then again I have never shadowed in private practice but this is the impression I get. I feel like I'll be happier in academics but really Im just guessing
 
Hi, on the east coast for residency. Really want to move to california after I'm done ( am finishing up 1st year right now). I was speaking to some co-res and they mentioned it is actually pretty hard to get a faculty appointment in cali and the process may take up to over a year and I should start networking now?

1.) is this true, and how do i go about it?
2.) Does anyone know or have comments about the the derm academic institutions in cali culture wise? Are there ones that are happy/ good to be at and ones that are not?

Thanks!

I would personally disagree with what some people have said on here - I think it is a gross over-simplification to say that academic jobs are "very easy" to come by in California, especially at top institutions. If you're talking about getting "any academic job" in "any part of California" - yes, that is probably easy to do. But, there are numerous caveats to what "any academic job" means (e.g. working at a remote satellite clinic 40 miles away from the primary clinic site and having virtually no interaction with residents) and whether that job would even be in an area of California you want to live in (it's a big state!).

The dermatology job market in general is more saturated in California (varies widely on geography obviously) and when you think about academic positions you have to consider it on an institutional level (e.g. UCSF is different than UC-Irvine, UCLA is different that Loma Linda, etc.). They're all looking for different things and have different pipelines and preferences for new faculty (e.g. internal graduating fellows, residents, etc.) along with department and institutional restrictions on hiring due to things like clinic space, institutional hiring freezes, compensation and department financial issues, etc. Those things are all unique to each individual institutions and they change all the time.

I can tell you from personal experience that, when I graduated from residency, some of the programs discussed were not hiring new faculty due to a number of institutional or department level issues. This means that they didn't even offer interviews to the dozens of applicants who applied for positions that year. I had friends with numerous internal connections, glowing CVs/publications, grant funding, and h-index's >12 coming out of residency who didn't even receive interviews (or even replies) from some California programs.

Happy to talk more offline because this is sensitive information. I would also note that institutional-level hiring environments change all the time with changing market forces . For example, hiring environments have recently turned grim across all of medicine due to COVID for non-front line specialties (like dermatology). But, again, many parts of California are saturated dermatology markets and the hiring environment there is different than in other parts of the United States (this is similar in academics as it is for private practice). Every market and institution is different. Having applied broadly for academic jobs across the country coming out of residency, I can definitely say that California market is much different than other markets. I also would not use the term "very easy" to describe it.
 
I would personally disagree with what some people have said on here - I think it is a gross over-simplification to say that academic jobs are "very easy" to come by in California, especially at top institutions. If you're talking about getting "any academic job" in "any part of California" - yes, that is probably easy to do. But, there are numerous caveats to what "any academic job" means (e.g. working at a remote satellite clinic 40 miles away from the primary clinic site and having virtually no interaction with residents) and whether that job would even be in an area of California you want to live in (it's a big state!).

The dermatology job market in general is more saturated in California (varies widely on geography obviously) and when you think about academic positions you have to consider it on an institutional level (e.g. UCSF is different than UC-Irvine, UCLA is different that Loma Linda, etc.). They're all looking for different things and have different pipelines and preferences for new faculty (e.g. internal graduating fellows, residents, etc.) along with department and institutional restrictions on hiring due to things like clinic space, institutional hiring freezes, compensation and department financial issues, etc. Those things are all unique to each individual institutions and they change all the time.

I can tell you from personal experience that, when I graduated from residency, some of the programs discussed were not hiring new faculty due to a number of institutional or department level issues. This means that they didn't even offer interviews to the dozens of applicants who applied for positions that year. I had friends with numerous internal connections, glowing CVs/publications, grant funding, and h-index's >12 coming out of residency who didn't even receive interviews (or even replies) from some California programs.

Happy to talk more offline because this is sensitive information. I would also note that institutional-level hiring environments change all the time with changing market forces . For example, hiring environments have recently turned grim across all of medicine due to COVID for non-front line specialties (like dermatology). But, again, many parts of California are saturated dermatology markets and the hiring environment there is different than in other parts of the United States (this is similar in academics as it is for private practice). Every market and institution is different. Having applied broadly for academic jobs across the country coming out of residency, I can definitely say that California market is much different than other markets. I also would not use the term "very easy" to describe it.

Thank you so much. This was so illuminating. I will send you a PM.
 
In keeping with the job search trend going on: I am currently at a no-name program, but have aspirations to work at a powerhouse. Looking at faculty profiles for these places indicates that most faculty come from stellar residencies. How can I get my foot in the door? Looking at gen derm gigs with teaching responsibilities.
 
In keeping with the job search trend going on: I am currently at a no-name program, but have aspirations to work at a powerhouse. Looking at faculty profiles for these places indicates that most faculty come from stellar residencies. How can I get my foot in the door? Looking at gen derm gigs with teaching responsibilities.

I figured I would merge these threads because of the similarities: desire to remain in academics either in a powerhouse program or a desirable location

I think the answer is probably similar in both cases:

1) There are some instances where it will be very easy. I did my residency one town away from a powerhouse academic program. From a financial viewpoint, I don't know how they recruited people, they offered a starting salary that was nearly 50% lower than that of my residency program's starting salary (I stayed on to teach for a few years). That being said, it had the name cache and still had plenty of applicants.

2) I think how competitive a position is also depends on what the position entails. As others have noted, there are academic positions at satellite clinics with minimal teaching/research responsibilities (my position was similar. It felt like an isolated, very low-paying private practice gig)

3) Becoming an expert in a niche area (or when you are just starting out, demonstrating a genuine interest in a niche area) can give you a leg up on the competition

4) Network: pursue a scholarship program, do an away elective either at a program where you would like to work or any big name academic program just to see how they run things, do research that will encourage collaboration with people at other institutions where you may want to work

5) Fellowship: I believe someone mentioned the clinician education fellowship @ Penn and I do believe there are a few other programs that offer something similar. As someone now in private practice, something like that would not interest me. That being said, I have heard positive things about that fellowship and if it is an entire year, I would have to think it would offer something that you couldn't simply pick up on your own (or at the very least, expedite the process). It would also be a unique feather in your cap that no one else has

6) Start early: I had co-residents who had a private practice job lined up by the end of their 2nd year of residency. If you are looking at a powerhouse program, you may want to send out feelers that early (or even earlier) as hiring environments change all the time. Even with the interviewing/hiring process completed, the earlier you can lock everything in, the better given the intrinsic inefficiencies present in many academic practices (e.g. it took me nearly 5 months to get credentialed at my first job)

7) As someone else mentioned, the VA can be a backdoor into academia. I found the VA patient population among the most rewarding to work with (at least with derm-specific complaints). It was one of my fondest memories as a resident and I certainly had the most hands-on training during the VA clinics. It wasn't the most popular clinic for the attendings to staff and we often had to rely on volunteer faculty. This could be another unique way into academia and would allow for meaningful resident interaction (my favorite attending during residency was actually one of our volunteer faculty at the VA)
 
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Thank you for taking the time to line this out so clearly. This is very helpful and I appreciate your time!
 
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