I have had several older students tell me conflicting things. Just curious about any thoughts or opinions?
How important are audition rotations for psychiatry?
- Thread starter cryhavoc
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Depends on how much older the students are. Their source might be out of date. Truthfully, it’s hard to tell. Psych used to have 200 excess spots than applicants so anyone could match but it’s gotten more and more competitive. This past year I had overheard there were 2200 applicants for 1500 spots. When things are more competitive, it usually helps that programs know you personally. Butttt don’t trust me because idk about psych specifically.
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Depends on multiple factors:
-- Where do you want to end up? Community program in the midwest, not necessary. Big academic center in the northeast, yes.
-- Did you take the USMLE?
-- Do you look worse on paper than you do in person?
I did a lot of aways. I perform better in person than I look on paper. I ended up at my top choice and I believe it would have been out of my reach if I hadn't done a rotation there. I've also seen the opposite in some applicants. They look great on paper and then they get here to do a rotation and they don't perform well. You need to figure out which category you're in and plan accordingly.
-- Where do you want to end up? Community program in the midwest, not necessary. Big academic center in the northeast, yes.
-- Did you take the USMLE?
-- Do you look worse on paper than you do in person?
I did a lot of aways. I perform better in person than I look on paper. I ended up at my top choice and I believe it would have been out of my reach if I hadn't done a rotation there. I've also seen the opposite in some applicants. They look great on paper and then they get here to do a rotation and they don't perform well. You need to figure out which category you're in and plan accordingly.
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Where's the wise @Mad Jack when you need him????
Honestly, I look terrible on paper. I failed step 1 my first time. I did pretty good on my retake but it doesn’t erase the huge red flag I now possess.
I’m extremely passionate about psych. I really went into medicine to be a psychiatrist. I wanted to be a psychiatrist since I was young. I honestly think I could sell myself, my passion in person. I just don’t know if how passionate I am can overcome that darn failure.
I just feel sort of lost. I need realistic advice. Like how can I optimize myself as a “failure”. Where should I save my money and just not apply to because they’ll just throw it in the trash? Where are my best bets? How should I apply audition wise?
I will literally take any program, anywhere, that lets me be a psychiatrist. Any.
I just need practical advice. Like what sort of places I should apply to, what should I do, how many should I apply to, should I audition at the least competitive places, what are the least competitive places?
I don’t feel like I have anyone to turn to who is in my current shoes who can give me the advice I need.
If anyone can, thanks.
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Did you fail step 1 or level 1
The COMLEX, I’m too scared I’ll fail the MD test to take it. It would be a gamble because I heard they could ignore the COMLEX failure if I pass USMLE. But I don’t want to gamble and put myself at an even further disadvantage by failing it too. Plus I’m swamped studying for shelf exams and level 2, so I’d also be taking time away from that to go back and restudy.
Huge gamble. If there is a chance I can match somewhere less competitive with my good score on my second attempt at level 1, I’d like to try that.
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Do not take step 1. I asked because if it was step then you could’ve chosen not to release the failure. Since it’s level you can not do that
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Very important.
Best friend did 4 electives.
And she also utilized any "selectives" that had a psych focus to do subspecialties in psych like child and forensics.
So she did 6 technically.
Netted 11 interviews thus far.
But to think that half of them came from auditions was crazy....
Applied to 70+ places.
So yes.
Very important.
Best friend did 4 electives.
And she also utilized any "selectives" that had a psych focus to do subspecialties in psych like child and forensics.
So she did 6 technically.
Netted 11 interviews thus far.
But to think that half of them came from auditions was crazy....
Applied to 70+ places.
So yes.
Very important.
My school has limits in place, I could do a max of five two week audition rotations.
Are psych audition rotations usually 2 weeks?
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Why would your school hurt you so much. In general most auditions are four weeks in length.
That means I can only do 2.
D
deleted407021
This is a great question and one I’m trying to answer for myself. What I’m doing is starting by looking at the places where people from my school have ended up and thought about how much I’d like to live, work and learn there based on the limited amount of info I can get from the program site and contacting some of the residents. Then I’m going to VSAS to see if they’re even on there.
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I dont know where you heard that your COMLEX failure with be overlooked with a passed USMLE but that is not true. In my experience, if you take both exams then the lowest score on either is what they pay attention to. I had a very good COMLEX and below average USMLE and at all my interviews, even at formerly DO programs, they still brought up my USMLE. I would not take the USMLE unless you were getting super high scores on your practice exams.
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Yes.
YMMV, but I found them to be incredibly valuable.
I'm a D.O. applicant with USMLE Step 1/2, that really wanted to move to NY/NJ/PA.
I did a total of 3 Sub I’s in psychiatry (canceled the 4th one) and received interviews at all of them; I cannot emphasize the importance of this. It gave me a lot to talk about during my interviews and helped me significantly with the residency trail.
Furthermore, when ROL time comes, you will be able to see the program with greater clarity; you cannot get an accurate feel about the program from the interview only – it is not enough. Spend 1 month there to get a really good feel if this program would be a good fit for you.
YMMV, but I found them to be incredibly valuable.
I'm a D.O. applicant with USMLE Step 1/2, that really wanted to move to NY/NJ/PA.
I did a total of 3 Sub I’s in psychiatry (canceled the 4th one) and received interviews at all of them; I cannot emphasize the importance of this. It gave me a lot to talk about during my interviews and helped me significantly with the residency trail.
Furthermore, when ROL time comes, you will be able to see the program with greater clarity; you cannot get an accurate feel about the program from the interview only – it is not enough. Spend 1 month there to get a really good feel if this program would be a good fit for you.
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On the flip side of that, my friend went to multiple EM residency conferences and was told that they tend to focus on whatever score was higher.
The stipulations being:
1) that was EM
2) it's in the midwest and not the coast
3) advice regarding only taking the USMLE if your scores indicate you should is so true (speaking from personal experience).
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My interviews were all for EM. I feel like I got screened out of certain places because of my USMLE score but I'll never really know the reason. There were a couple programs that I rotated at which took DOs that still didnt give me an interview because of my USMLE despite a very high COMLEX. They gave me excellent evaluations so I assume that was the limiting factor.
It's certainly program dependent like most things. I have friends with lower COMLEX scores and no USMLE that still got way more interviews than me. N=1 but that has been my experience.
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I'd definitely trust your experience over the hearsay I have to offer. But hey, isn't it comforting to see how heavy randomness/arbitrariness plays into it all?
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I’m a psych intern. If I had to go back, I would’ve done more auditions. I did one but did not end up at that place. Some of my other friends that did auditions for psych ended up at a place where they auditioned. Really does help as long as you don’t screw up.
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It depends. Given the Level 1 failure, I would say it would likely help you if you are hard working and get along with people (or can at least feign it).
The truth is that I've seen people that actually look great/amazing on paper, they do an audition, and then come time for the rank meeting and lo and behold, a ton of people recommend DNR because they couldn't imagine working with them after a brief experience on an audition. You'd be surprised how tone deaf and inappropriate some people could be.
The reason is because it varies by program and region. Its not as straightforward or clearcut as you would expect (or hope for) as an applicant.
The truth is that I've seen people that actually look great/amazing on paper, they do an audition, and then come time for the rank meeting and lo and behold, a ton of people recommend DNR because they couldn't imagine working with them after a brief experience on an audition. You'd be surprised how tone deaf and inappropriate some people could be.
The chaos is certainly comforting
The reason is because it varies by program and region. Its not as straightforward or clearcut as you would expect (or hope for) as an applicant.
What if you have high step scores and are a D.O. candidate, would it be possible to bypass auditions. I guess if I want to go back to California, an audition is absolutely necessary
Also, say you are undecided, and apply for an audition for internal medicine at say UCLA and also do apply for an audition for psych there, but only do internal medicine, could that look bad?
Also, say you are undecided, and apply for an audition for internal medicine at say UCLA and also do apply for an audition for psych there, but only do internal medicine, could that look bad?
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I don't know how much my program values my opinion but I've interviewed applicants during this season. A couple of my favorite applicants had Step failures but they were easy to get along with, seemed to be able to take direction well and were passionate. Except for a handful of programs it's not all about scores. Auditions/showing your face, playing well with others counts for a lot.
Make sure to apply widely, target your auditions and if you come across as a people-person you will match.
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All former AOA programs value audition. But the rule of thumb is to audition at reach programs to limit the damage of you catching somebody on a bad day and maximize the profit in case of you doing well for that month.
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I've only seen 4 week Sub-I's and A.I.'s.
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I would do a good amount of auditons at programs historically known for taking people who rotated with them. Usually these are more community programs than not, former AOA, etc.
Looking back I wish I had optimized my aways a bit better. I felt like I probably could have netted a few interviews with them as they do generally cumulate to an interviews.
I would say that still have a shot. But I think you need to be reasonable and have a back up as well. Family medicine or IM has plenty of psychiatry. Likewise you have the ability to if you want to rotate and focus significantly on psychiatric populations via those routes.
In the mean time you need to network and build connections. Above all you need to do well on level 2.
Looking back I wish I had optimized my aways a bit better. I felt like I probably could have netted a few interviews with them as they do generally cumulate to an interviews.
I would say that still have a shot. But I think you need to be reasonable and have a back up as well. Family medicine or IM has plenty of psychiatry. Likewise you have the ability to if you want to rotate and focus significantly on psychiatric populations via those routes.
In the mean time you need to network and build connections. Above all you need to do well on level 2.
D
deleted407021
Add to this it’s not unheard of to apply to PGY2 and even PGY1 positions after a year of residency in something other than psych
I'm at a community psych program in Midwest and every resident in my class did an away rotation with our program as medical students. Not true of every class but I know for my program having a good away rotation can seal the deal for you. I think small programs appreciate the away rotations because when you only have 3 spots to fill you don't want to risk filling with someone who might not fit in/you only met for a few hours at dinner/interview day.
