How important are grades?

[DimaDrill]

Hi, I am a second year student right now. I am really curious about the importance of my grade as far as me getting into residency. I heard that some schools like midwestern use pass/fail while other schools use percent and rank their students based on that(such is the case in my school).

Should most of my focus go toward studying for boards instead of worrying about my class rank?
Thanks

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[Toohotinvegas33]

As of right now, I hope grades arent too important. I'm gonna study my butt off for the boards (and will probably take both).

 

[JonnyG]

if you want to get into a competitive residency its best not to have anything that can be called into question. Importance is relative to what you want to do.

 

[DimaDrill]

but what about people who are at pass/fail schools? isn't that an unfair advantage for them?

 

[yoosername]

Some would argue that people from pass/fail schools are at a disadvantage since they can't demonstrate their place among their peers at their school.

 

[toothless rufus]

Eh, the only really important thing is to pass everything and graduate.

 

[SexPistol]

even pass and fail programs seem to keep a class rank or thats what i heard at least

 

[Kappy1]

The only thing I know is 70=DO that is passing NYCOM.

Does anyone know if there is class rank during the second two years of medical school?

 

[whatdapho]

even pass and fail programs seem to keep a class rank or thats what i heard at least

This is what I have heard too. Even though you have P/F system, school administrators still keep % of for each student just for transcript purposes. I think P/F systems are meant to maintain camaraderrie (sp?) b/w students. Whatever the case may be, getting good grades and doing well on the boards wouldn't hurt would it?? And as someone above already stated, it depends on what specialty you want to get into. My 1 cent, cause I spent the other penny on coffee

 

[medschoolsoon]

Grades don't matter if you like FP. j/k

BTW...I'm at AZCOM (Midwestern) and we DEFINITELY do not have pass/fail. We have the A to C- system (damn you 93 being an A ).

 

[PeeWee137]

The only thing I know is 70=DO that is passing NYCOM.

Does anyone know if there is class rank during the second two years of medical school?

they absolutely rank you at nycom. its percents, not an actual number. at the end of second year they invite the top 10-15% for honor society, and on your dean's letter they call you "superior, outstanding...." which corresponds with what percentile rank you are.

 

[VALSALVA]

Pre-clinical grades don't matter much unless you're in the top 5% or the bottom 5%. Core clerkship grades, ones performance on rotations in chosen field, letters of recommendation, personality, and board scores matter more. Even being published in a respected journal may be more important in some fields.

Grades may matter ("may" being the key word) if one is vying for a derm or categorical plastics (for example) spot because most of the candidates are very outstanding well rounded people who have a strong overall application. Nit picking is almost necessary when everybody has great letters, great clinical grades and 250+ on the boards.

In terms of any given residency program's view of the numbers game, I think the consensus is that board scores mean more b/c grade inflation, difficulty of curriculum, and means of testing can vary greatly from school to school. This is why it's to anyone's advantage to do well on steps I and II before applying for competitive spots - you'll have a leg up on folks who've only done well on step I but haven't taken step II or have taken it but don't have the score report yet.

 

[jrf331]

I have posted this before but here it is again

A bit of new information from an ERAS study about success in the ACGME-NRMP match (MD)
-----
[Assume parallels in the AOA-NMP match (DO)]

What are programs looking for
things they look for are: AAMC match outcomes for ACGME Programs (best predictors of match)

1. Performance on Step 1 of USMLE
2. Membership in Alpha Omega Alpha (MD school honor society)
3. Existence of applicant authored publications
4. Research experience
5. Number of programs ranked by applicant (the more the better chance)

Also noted (but not ranked in study):
6. Medical school transcripts (clerkship grades)
7. Medical Student Performance Evaluation (MSPE) = Dean’s letter
8. Letters of recommendation
9. Personal statements from ERAS
10. Interview experience


So Boards and Honor society seem to be the two most important things. And who get into the Honor Society usually top 10-25% of class but this differs with school.

 

[medhacker]

AOA at most allopathic schools is HIGHLY political

 

[CatsandCradles]

Grades don't matter if you like FP. j/k

BTW...I'm at AZCOM (Midwestern) and we DEFINITELY do not have pass/fail. We have the A to C- system (damn you 93 being an A ).

Wowzers. 93 for an A.

So if I get a 73, does this mean I would be failing in Arizona?

 

[Phallacious]

i am going through my third year and am beginning to feel that the single most important thing to getting a residency and fellowship is how well you work w/ the residents and the attendings while doing rotations.

Much more impressive that great board scores and grades is actual, real work witnesssed by your prospective employer.

 

[JasonUD]

NYCOM is pass/fail/honors (top 10%) and we're unranked. We're all pretty happy about it.

 

[medschoolsoon]

Wowzers. 93 for an A.

So if I get a 73, does this mean I would be failing in Arizona?

No, the 70=DO motto still applies, but it would be a C-

 

[lilzelda2]

NYCOM is pass/fail/honors (top 10%) and we're unranked. We're all pretty happy about it.

I think we are ranked. I heard that from a couple of people last yr including the OMM secretary, unless they did away with ranking this year.

 

[PeeWee137]

I think we are ranked. I heard that from a couple of people last yr including the OMM secretary, unless they did away with ranking this year.

NYCOM is pass/fail/honors (top 10%) and we're unranked. We're all pretty happy about it.

did anyone read my previous post?!?!?

YES, nycom ranks you.

 

[medhacker]

i am going through my third year and am beginning to feel that the single most important thing to getting a residency and fellowship is how well you work w/ the residents and the attendings while doing rotations.

Much more impressive that great board scores and grades is actual, real work witnesssed by your prospective employer.

Bingo!

He who has ears to hear...

 

[box29]

This is what I have heard too. Even though you have P/F system, school administrators still keep % of for each student just for transcript purposes. I think P/F systems are meant to maintain camaraderrie (sp?) b/w students. Whatever the case may be, getting good grades and doing well on the boards wouldn't hurt would it?? And as someone above already stated, it depends on what specialty you want to get into. My 1 cent, cause I spent the other penny on coffee

This is also what I've heard from program directors while on the interview trail. They have told me that even though a school is pass/fail, there is an internal rank that they see.

 

[Sartre79]

We are pass/fail at Creighton and don't rank, and we still place into pretty good residencies. I don't know if the MD/DO comes into play (not trying to start bashing so don't turn it into that). But we also score on "above the national average" on boards, so that may come into play. Just do the best you can....If you put a ton of pressure on yourself b/c of your rank/grades, I can't imagine it would contribute to better performance (assuming you are already trying the best you can).

 

[JasonUD]

did anyone read my previous post?!?!?

YES, nycom ranks you.

Haha no I didn't read your post until now! Wow, I really thought we were unranked. Does everyone get their own exact ranking (like 23.42%), or is it like top 10%, top 25%, top 50%, bottom 50%? Also, where did you find this info out??

 

[PeeWee137]

Haha no I didn't read your post until now! Wow, I really thought we were unranked. Does everyone get their own exact ranking (like 23.42%), or is it like top 10%, top 25%, top 50%, bottom 50%? Also, where did you find this info out??

after second year, the top 10-15% gets invited to join the national honor society psi sigma alpha. when you apply for residency, in your deans letter it will describe you as superior, outstanding, above average (something to that effect) which corresponds with the top 10%, top 20% of the class and so on. nycom reports this breakdown to the residency programs so they know what it all means. and i know this because i am almost done with this nonsense!

 

[lastchanceDO]

as someone mentioned above a professor of ours told a classmate that grades can be important if you want more competitive residencies such as R.O.A.D or in her case surgery.

also, my friends have mentioned that do well in ur classes first two years and it will reflect on ur board scores.. unless u are good at standardized test or cram like crazy.

remember, u have people's lives in ur hand, and more u know might serve ur patients well in the future, not just for the grades!

But i'm a firm believer in balance so dont kill urself over A or B or pass/fail.

 

[bkpa2med]

as someone mentioned above a professor of ours told a classmate that grades can be important if you want more competitive residencies such as R.O.A.D or in her case surgery.

also, my friends have mentioned that do well in ur classes first two years and it will reflect on ur board scores.. unless u are good at standardized test or cram like crazy.

remember, u have people's lives in ur hand, and more u know might serve ur patients well in the future, not just for the grades!

But i'm a firm believer in balance so dont kill urself over A or B or pass/fail.

Whatcha talkin' about?! We were told that grades and boards don't mean anything

 

[Jamers]

I have posted this before but here it is again

A bit of new information from an ERAS study about success in the ACGME-NRMP match (MD)
-----
[Assume parallels in the AOA-NMP match (DO)]

What are programs looking for
things they look for are: AAMC match outcomes for ACGME Programs (best predictors of match)

1. Performance on Step 1 of USMLE
2. Membership in Alpha Omega Alpha (MD school honor society)
3. Existence of applicant authored publications
4. Research experience
5. Number of programs ranked by applicant (the more the better chance)

Also noted (but not ranked in study):
6. Medical school transcripts (clerkship grades)
7. Medical Student Performance Evaluation (MSPE) = Dean's letter
8. Letters of recommendation
9. Personal statements from ERAS
10. Interview experience


So Boards and Honor society seem to be the two most important things. And who get into the Honor Society usually top 10-25% of class but this differs with school.

This post is what I have been told by physician after physician. Just try to learn the best you can, put your best foot forward and try to A)rock the boards, B) impress your attending.

I for one refuse to kill myself to get 4 points by memorizing some dumb table that will never help me again in my life.

I also wonder if the DO honor society ranks up there with the MD honor society. The reason I ask is because I heard the criteria are different for each school: DMU top 25% your first year or top 50% your second year...

 

[Pansit]

This post is what I have been told by physician after physician. Just try to learn the best you can, put your best foot forward and try to A)rock the boards, B) impress your attending.

I for one refuse to kill myself to get 4 points by memorizing some dumb table that will never help me again in my life.

I also wonder if the DO honor society ranks up there with the MD honor society. The reason I ask is because I heard the criteria are different for each school: DMU top 25% your first year or top 50% your second year...

Can you explain this a little bit? and what % would a student typically be to be at top 25%?....92%, 90%, 85% average?...I know its probably different every year but I am just looking for an approximation...knowing these things are good in a motivational sense...(ie. I have an 82% average but knowing 85% can get you honored, will help motivate, especially knowing an A is out of reach)

 

[DD214_DOC]

To quickly address your concern, I will steal a brilliant piece of advice taken from one of our own wise students.

It's not a catastrophe to have poor grades OR a mediocre board score. (although more weight may be given to boards). What you don't want to have is both. That's probably a dramatic oversimplification, but you get the idea.

 

[DrReginaDO]

did anyone read my previous post?!?!?

YES, nycom ranks you.

But how do they rank the DPC studnets? We are pretty much on a whole different grading system.