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How important is research reputation of the medical school for residency?
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Little.
My speculation is none, but I'm not there yet. This whole system is "What have you done for me lately." Prestige is overrated by pre-meds, but when it does matter, the fellowships care where you did residency. The jobs care where you did fellowship. Etc...
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So when might prestige matter? I understand that prestige shouldn't matter, but I'm just interested in what actually happens behind closed doors in academic medicine.
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Uhhh, never? There are very successful PIs at not big name institutions.
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When you are building an academic program, where you did your "clinical fellowship" (i.e.: cardiac electrophysiology, epilepsy, diabetes, etc.) matters...
I have co-built a clinical epilepsy program with fellowship graduates from: Cleveland Clinic, Columbia, Duke, UCLA, UCSF, U. Washington, and us (2). Our surgeons are from Montreal Neurological and Yale. As you can tell, we favored diversity of schools of thought but every single faculty recruit was from an outstanding "fellowship" program, and their skills, personality, and whole package fit with our program. I don't care where these guys went for MD/PhD (2 of them) or MD training, or for general neurosurgery (one at Harvard) or neurology (one at Wash U). It is where you did your PGY-5 or 6 or 7 what really matters.
FYI: we are hiring more faculty right now.
Disagree with your post, Neuronix. Having been part of a particular "prestige" school matters clinically. For bench purposes, it is about your productivity and your line of research that is taken into account. A Chair might want to expand into the direction of your area of expertise, and hire you over a more qualified applicant with research in an area that is seen as not critical for the department or center. This other candidate might not thrive in their opinion because of lack of internal collaborations.
I have co-built a clinical epilepsy program with fellowship graduates from: Cleveland Clinic, Columbia, Duke, UCLA, UCSF, U. Washington, and us (2). Our surgeons are from Montreal Neurological and Yale. As you can tell, we favored diversity of schools of thought but every single faculty recruit was from an outstanding "fellowship" program, and their skills, personality, and whole package fit with our program. I don't care where these guys went for MD/PhD (2 of them) or MD training, or for general neurosurgery (one at Harvard) or neurology (one at Wash U). It is where you did your PGY-5 or 6 or 7 what really matters.
FYI: we are hiring more faculty right now.
Disagree with your post, Neuronix. Having been part of a particular "prestige" school matters clinically. For bench purposes, it is about your productivity and your line of research that is taken into account. A Chair might want to expand into the direction of your area of expertise, and hire you over a more qualified applicant with research in an area that is seen as not critical for the department or center. This other candidate might not thrive in their opinion because of lack of internal collaborations.
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Well, this is certainly true. At each step of the process it matters the most where you were at the most recent stage of your training. So, when applying for faculty positions your fellowship is going to be the most important. The problem is, this fact is also true at every other step of training. That is, when you applying for a fellowship they care about your residency, residency cares about medical school, medical school cares about undergrad, and so on. For this reason, it's impossible just to say prestige doesn't matter until you are a fellow. Prestige will be a part of the reason you got the prestigious fellowship in the first place.
Little may be partially correct, but none is definitely wrong. And again, what you did lately depends on what you did before that, and so on. There are two things that are important about your medical school:
1) Geographic location. This is probably the most important, because it's always harder to move out of your region because you are an unknown quantity to the residency/fellowship/etc. Plus they think you are less likely to want to move. If you are specifically interested in a particular part of the country, you should try to go to med school/residency/fellowship there because you will do the networking you need to get there. Geography trumps prestige in many cases.
2) Prestige. It's always better to come from a more prestigious institution than a less known one. Period. That doesn't mean the magnitude of this difference is a lot, and other things can help you make up for the difference. However, if all other things are equal (grades, step scores, research experiences), the person from the more prestigious institution will get the upper hand. This doesn't even take into account the fact that more prestigious institutions will often (not always) have more opportunities for you to get those research experiences and contacts you need.
If you don't think this makes a difference, consider the extremes of difference in prestige. Ask a DO grad applying for a competitive specialty how it's going. Or a Caribbean grad. These are extreme examples, I know, but real. The difference in a high quality state school and a prestigious top 25 institution is much smaller, but there.
And as I said before, #1 trumps #2 in many cases. As an example, if you want to do your residency in LA, it may be advantageous to have gone to med school at UC-Irvine rather than Duke.
It also doesn't mean that there aren't considerable other factors in your choice. Is the cost difference worth it? Is it better to be closer to family? Feel that you fit in better with the atmosphere at a certain place? These are huge considerations that for most people end up being more important than prestige.
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I look at where I wanted to go for residency and didn't even get interviews. I also look at the places where I did interview, ranked highly, and then didn't match. Then I look at the match lists for those programs, and the schools (and degrees, mostly MD only) of those who did match there. To me it doesn't seem like the name of my medical school mattered at all. I also got one interview invite in my entire REGION. n=1.
As for residency/fellowship being of foremost importance to academic hiring, I guess I should just sign up for private practice now. This is a dramatic statement, but I certainly didn't match a top-tier program for residency. We don't do fellowships in my field. So what now? We were just talking about why we're losing MD/PhDs in research in this field. Then we look at this thread and act as if you need to be a top-tier person to even get the academic jobs out there. Are there even enough academic positions to support all these MD/PhDs, including the ones who couldn't match at *insert big name place here*? It's a good thing I know in my field it isn't as cut and dry as Fencer makes it out to be, but nevertheless, Fencer your post essentially dooms a large chunk of MD/PhDs out there who are not training at big name places.
So fine, go to your top-tier MD/PhD program if that's of paramount importance to you. No matter what you do, you need to be top-tier in your medical school performance. That matters FAR FAR FAR more than where you went to MD/PhD in my experience. If anything, if you go to a not so big name place, maybe the pressure and competition won't be as high.
As for residency/fellowship being of foremost importance to academic hiring, I guess I should just sign up for private practice now. This is a dramatic statement, but I certainly didn't match a top-tier program for residency. We don't do fellowships in my field. So what now? We were just talking about why we're losing MD/PhDs in research in this field. Then we look at this thread and act as if you need to be a top-tier person to even get the academic jobs out there. Are there even enough academic positions to support all these MD/PhDs, including the ones who couldn't match at *insert big name place here*? It's a good thing I know in my field it isn't as cut and dry as Fencer makes it out to be, but nevertheless, Fencer your post essentially dooms a large chunk of MD/PhDs out there who are not training at big name places.
So fine, go to your top-tier MD/PhD program if that's of paramount importance to you. No matter what you do, you need to be top-tier in your medical school performance. That matters FAR FAR FAR more than where you went to MD/PhD in my experience. If anything, if you go to a not so big name place, maybe the pressure and competition won't be as high.
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Nothing is predestined. You can make your own opportunities at each level, regardless of prestige of program.
There is an argument to be made that an individual may do better in a less prestigious environment. For instance, is it better to be in the top 5% of your state medical school or 50th percentile at Harvard? I don't know. In some ways, you may stand out more from your state medical school. It's probably better to be from the top 5% of an average school than the bottom quartile from a really good school.
Smaller specialties will deviate more from these guides than larger specialties, as they are by definition more subject to sampling differences. But take a look at UCSF medicine current PGY-1s, for example (because it has a nice sample size, and they have a list of interns on their web site).
School
UCSF 14
Harvard 5
University of North Carolina 4
Emory 3
Stanford 3
Yale 3
Case Western Reserve 2
UCLA 2
University of Chicago, Pritzker 2
University of Washington 2
Albert Einstein/Yeshiva Univeristy 1
Brown 1
Columbia 1
Cornell 1
Dartmouth 1
Drexel 1
Duke 1
Johns Hopkins 1
Mount Sinai 1
New York University 1
Northwestern University 1
Oregon Health and Science 1
Tufts 1
Tulane 1
UC San Diego 1
University of Colorado, Denver 1
University of Pennsylvania 1
University of Texas, Houston 1
University of Texas, San Antonio 1
University of Utah 1
University of Vermont 1
University of Wisconsin 1
It's like a who's who of medical schools, with a geographic bias. Draw your own conclusions.
There is an argument to be made that an individual may do better in a less prestigious environment. For instance, is it better to be in the top 5% of your state medical school or 50th percentile at Harvard? I don't know. In some ways, you may stand out more from your state medical school. It's probably better to be from the top 5% of an average school than the bottom quartile from a really good school.
Smaller specialties will deviate more from these guides than larger specialties, as they are by definition more subject to sampling differences. But take a look at UCSF medicine current PGY-1s, for example (because it has a nice sample size, and they have a list of interns on their web site).
School
UCSF 14
Harvard 5
University of North Carolina 4
Emory 3
Stanford 3
Yale 3
Case Western Reserve 2
UCLA 2
University of Chicago, Pritzker 2
University of Washington 2
Albert Einstein/Yeshiva Univeristy 1
Brown 1
Columbia 1
Cornell 1
Dartmouth 1
Drexel 1
Duke 1
Johns Hopkins 1
Mount Sinai 1
New York University 1
Northwestern University 1
Oregon Health and Science 1
Tufts 1
Tulane 1
UC San Diego 1
University of Colorado, Denver 1
University of Pennsylvania 1
University of Texas, Houston 1
University of Texas, San Antonio 1
University of Utah 1
University of Vermont 1
University of Wisconsin 1
It's like a who's who of medical schools, with a geographic bias. Draw your own conclusions.
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Well I was 50th percentile at a top 5 mstp, and I would still argue that AOA from any MSTP is much more valuable.
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Possibly. Probably scenario specific.
My overall advice is to go to the most prestigious program that fits into your other life goals.
6h away by car is not bad at all. Anything short of a plane ride is pretty acceptable if you're OK with seeing your family for major holidays and the occasional 3 day weekend. As long as you are within driving distance you don't need to plan ahead to go home if the opportunity presents itself. I love my family, but living about 5h away was perfectly acceptable for me (short visits ~3x per year, plus possibly one longer visit). We are all busy so even if I could go home my siblings might be working or unable to go home. Nonetheless we're very close.
YMMV- do you see your family often, do you talk by phone or text often? If you'd want to live at home or pop in for an hour every weekend, obviously it wouldn't work. It's especially hard if you have younger siblings. But the research quality of your MSTP is potentially very important (to your later career, if not to residency), and it sounds like one is much more limited than the other. Do both programs have PIs whose work interests you?
YMMV- do you see your family often, do you talk by phone or text often? If you'd want to live at home or pop in for an hour every weekend, obviously it wouldn't work. It's especially hard if you have younger siblings. But the research quality of your MSTP is potentially very important (to your later career, if not to residency), and it sounds like one is much more limited than the other. Do both programs have PIs whose work interests you?
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@Miz - I'm thinking that I will be too busy as a med student to go home anyways. As much as I love my family, I do think that I should take the opportunity to get the best research experience I can get.
The school that is 6hrs away is Ohio State, and it has one of the best pharmacy programs (and a pretty decent chemistry dept) in the country, and I'm interested in doing a joint project with a neuro-oncology PI to work on drug synthesis or delivery. Plus I liked Columbus during my visit.
The other school, Medical College of Wisconsin, is a very nice program in my opinion, I don't think it perfectly fits my research interests in nanochemistry and synthetic chemistry in the context of neurobiology. They did recently establish a Drug Discovery Center, but it is not as developed as Ohio State's pharmacy program.
If anyone knows about these two programs, I would love to hear what you think about the medical school and research opportunities. Thank you!
The school that is 6hrs away is Ohio State, and it has one of the best pharmacy programs (and a pretty decent chemistry dept) in the country, and I'm interested in doing a joint project with a neuro-oncology PI to work on drug synthesis or delivery. Plus I liked Columbus during my visit.
The other school, Medical College of Wisconsin, is a very nice program in my opinion, I don't think it perfectly fits my research interests in nanochemistry and synthetic chemistry in the context of neurobiology. They did recently establish a Drug Discovery Center, but it is not as developed as Ohio State's pharmacy program.
If anyone knows about these two programs, I would love to hear what you think about the medical school and research opportunities. Thank you!
What about faculty hiring practices down the line. I think I am most interested in faculty positions in a region of the US that is not typically very heavily sought after but does have some strong followers....namely the south. I like it.
I'd love to get in to a particular state in the future as well...
Should this influence my choice about MSTP matriculation? I am choosing between several schools in the NE (where I don't think I would want to spend the rest of my life....8-10 years is fine), one in the south, one in the Midwest, and one in the Northwest (areas I might decide I love).
The school in the south would be drool worthy for my ultimate career.
It might seem like this is all planning too far ahead, and I recognize that, but I have noticed the trend that a lot of faculty members seem to return to their alma maters for junior faculty positions. Is this as a result of preference, or their having a foot in the door at the institution?
Thanks.
I'd love to get in to a particular state in the future as well...
Should this influence my choice about MSTP matriculation? I am choosing between several schools in the NE (where I don't think I would want to spend the rest of my life....8-10 years is fine), one in the south, one in the Midwest, and one in the Northwest (areas I might decide I love).
The school in the south would be drool worthy for my ultimate career.
It might seem like this is all planning too far ahead, and I recognize that, but I have noticed the trend that a lot of faculty members seem to return to their alma maters for junior faculty positions. Is this as a result of preference, or their having a foot in the door at the institution?
Thanks.
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Both.
Read the above. Geography is a huge deal. If the school in the south is the most prestigious AND where you want to end up then it sounds like it is a good option for you.
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Well, you could have saved us the intricacies of this discussion by telling us the schools sooner
The differences between prestige between these two schools is probably negligible. Both are good middle of the road but not outstanding medical schools. You can safely choose based on other factors.
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Well, you could have saved us the intricacies of this discussion by telling us the schools sooner
I have much respect for you B, but I'm not really sure what "prestige" schools you were thinking of in the USNews 26-60...
On the other hand, I think this is impossibly vague. Overall, I'd say don't become attached to any particular location ever if you want to be in academics. I'd go to where you want to live now and see what happens in the future. I feel that those sorts of positions you get due to them having an opening in your particular niche area at that particular time. Even so, if you want to be a serious researcher, you should go to the one of the maybe five institutions that will take you and support your interests in any given year. This could be anywhere.
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Well played! I didn't exactly scrutinize the US News list to figure out the maximum disparity in prestige between two places in that category. Now that I look at it, there's not a whole lot of difference between any of those places once you know it's in the 26-60 category.
Some general advice that should be at the top of every pre-med forums:
These rankings have error bars of at least 10-15 (at minimum, likely more!) ranks each way.
Differences within these error ranges are likely negligible.
However, that being said, many people will face a similar decision where there is a disparity in reputation of a medical school which is offset by cost, geography, or other personal factors.
My advice is the same in those cases:
Go to the most prestigious program that fits in with your other life goals, including research interests, family, significant others, cost, and geography. If the prestige is interchangeable, then decide only on your other goals.
