How is abortion taught at your osteopathic med school?

[LolaSo]

Hey,

I'm asking purely from a position of interest and not by any means to start a debate, but I'm wondering how elective abortion is taught at your osteopathic medical school? I know mine has a one-hour non-mandatory lecture on it and that is about it. I know other schools talk about it in the context of ethics or pharm lectures, or not at all.

Since it it one of the most common procedures, this hardly seems enough, but on the other hand, I completely understand how schools must teach to the boards.

Thanks for the info.

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[Siggy]

I have no numbers, but I'd hardly argue that is was the "most common procedure." At my school there was some discussion pharm wise, but I can't think of any heavy duty discussion about it. I never, however, got the feeling like they were intentionally avoiding it or anything.

 

[LolaSo]

Awesome, thanks for the info. Do you know if your school requires any exposure to or discussion of abortion on your OB/GYN rotations?

 

[SLC]

Mine offers it but doesn't require it.

Awesome, thanks for the info. Do you know if your school requires any exposure to or discussion of abortion on your OB/GYN rotations?

 

[SLC]

Mine offers it but doesn't require it.

Awesome, thanks for the info. Do you know if your school requires any exposure to or discussion of abortion on your OB/GYN rotations?

 

[LolaSo]

Offers it in your didactic years, your clinical years, or both?

 

[LolaSo]

I'm asking because I'm trying to figure out if my school offers more or less than the average DO school, so any input is really helpful!

 

[Trogghunter]

Yeah you should be getting lectures on pharm abortion and separate ones on the physio, surgical aspects of it etc. Its a common procedure....if you're getting an hour, that is not enough and you're getting ripped off. My school covered it a lot. No omt aspects of it...other than c/i in pregnancy.

 

[LolaSo]

How many lectures would you say has some emphasis on abortion and which ones? Any exposure in your clinical years?

 

[cabinbuilder]

They did not talk about abortion when I was in school. That's more of an ob/gyn residency issue.

 

[Kevin Baker]

I don't recall abortion being taught in the first two years, apart from a pharm mention, and it wasn't taught in my OBGYN rotation. Best we had was a lunchtime round table discussion that devolved into two sides arguing over ethics.

 

[Siggy]

How many lectures would you say has some emphasis on abortion and which ones? Any exposure in your clinical years?

The hospital I did my OB/Gyn at did not due elective abortions. However I was able to watch a dilation and curettage for an incomplete spontaneous abortion.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Elective abortion was never really discussed at my school.

 

[touchpause13]

Does anyone know what DMU offers?

 

[stlrams22]

It is foolish for any school to teach abortion. this contradicts the osteopathic oath, physicians should PROTECT life.

 

[stlrams22]

I have no numbers, but I'd hardly argue that is was the "most common procedure." At my school there was some discussion pharm wise, but I can't think of any heavy duty discussion about it. I never, however, got the feeling like they were intentionally avoiding it or anything.

Agree, that sounds absolutely ridiculous to say its one of the most common procedures.

 

[touchpause13]

Agree, that sounds absolutely ridiculous to say its one of the most common procedures.

Well if 1 out of every 3 women gets one that does add up for me as being a common procedure.

 

[stlrams22]

Well if 1 out of every 3 women gets one that does add up for me as being a common procedure.

Unfortunately it is far too common, but I was arguing it being one of the most common procedures. It is really sad that the procedure being referred to as "common" results in the murder of a baby.

 

[Siggy]

Well if 1 out of every 3 women gets one that does add up for me as being a common procedure.

70+% of men in the US are circumcised. Now how many lac repairs, I&Ds, pap smears, colpos, endometrial biopsies, intubations (including those for surgery), etc are done every day?

Frequent procedure? Sure... ok.
One of the most common? Err... not so much.

 

[abolt18]

70+% of men in the US are circumscribed. Now how many lac repairs, I&Ds, pap smears, colpos, endometrial biopsies, intubations (including those for surgery), etc are done every day?

Frequent procedure? Sure... ok.
One of the most common? Err... not so much.

Lol

 

[Siggy]

Lol

::Whistles::

 

[group_theory]

Abortions in the US is a controversial subject, with defenders and detractors. However this thread is not about whether abortion is appropriate (either medically, morally, ethically, legally, religiously,etc) ... But limited strictly to the question ... "How is abortion taught in your DO school"

Let's stay on topic please.

 

[SurgeDO]

Abortions in the US is a controversial subject, with defenders and detractors. However this thread is not about whether abortion is appropriate (either medically, morally, ethically, legally, religiously,etc) ... But limited strictly to the question ... "How is abortion taught in your DO school"

Let's stay on topic please.

i was really hoping to first debate the ethics of abortion followed by an enlightening conversation as to whether DOs or MDs make better abortionists.

 

[stlrams22]

Abortions in the US is a controversial subject, with defenders and detractors. However this thread is not about whether abortion is appropriate (either medically, morally, ethically, legally, religiously,etc) ... But limited strictly to the question ... "How is abortion taught in your DO school"

Let's stay on topic please.

From the responses, thankfully, it seems like the procedure to murder an innocent human life is not part of the curriculum in medical school.

 

[preDoGuy24]

From the responses, thankfully, it seems like the procedure to murder an innocent human life is not part of the curriculum in medical school.

A trolls gotta troll right? Keep on keeping on my man, won't miss you when you are gone.
As for me, we covered it briefly in a sexuality course and also in pharmacology, and by 'we' I mean I read about it at home as a pbl student. Guess I missed the part about it being against the osteopathic oath or some other BS.

 

[touchpause13]

A trolls gotta troll right? Keep on keeping on my man, won't miss you when you are gone.
As for me, we covered it briefly in a sexuality course and also in pharmacology, and by 'we' I mean I read about it at home as a pbl student. Guess I missed the part about it being against the osteopathic oath or some other BS.

A sexuality course?
That sounds interesting, I'm assuming lgbt topics are covered as well?

 

[preDoGuy24]

A sexuality course?
That sounds interesting, I'm assuming lgbt topics are covered as well?

For sure, class covered lots of different aspects of sexual health, pathology, psychosocial issues etc. Pretty decent, probably would have been better to have later on then as a 1st year.

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[Mehd School]

It is foolish for any school to teach abortion. this contradicts the osteopathic oath, physicians should PROTECT life.

From the responses, thankfully, it seems like the procedure to murder an innocent human life is not part of the curriculum in medical school.

So what is your stance on the topic?

 

[stlrams22]

A trolls gotta troll right? Keep on keeping on my man, won't miss you when you are gone.
As for me, we covered it briefly in a sexuality course and also in pharmacology, and by 'we' I mean I read about it at home as a pbl student. Guess I missed the part about it being against the osteopathic oath or some other BS.

I'm not trolling and won't be going anywhere. It clearly states in the osteopathic oath:

I do hereby affirm my loyalty to the profession I am about to enter. I will be mindful always of my great responsibility to preserve the health and the life of my patients, to retain their confidence and respect both as a physician and a friend who will guard their secrets with scrupulous honor and fidelity, to perform faithfully my professional duties, to employ only those recognized methods of treatment consistent with good judgment and with my skill and ability, keeping in mind always nature's laws and the body's inherent capacity for recovery.

I will be ever vigilant in aiding in the general welfare of the community, sustaining its laws and institutions, not engaging in those practices which will in any way bring shame or discredit upon myself or my profession. I will give no drugs for deadly purposes to any person, though it be asked of me.

I will endeavor to work in accord with my colleagues in a spirit of progressive cooperation and never by word or by act cast imputations upon them or their rightful practices.

I will look with respect and esteem upon all those who have taught me my art. To my college I will be loyal and strive always for its best interests and for the interests of the students who will come after me. I will be ever alert to further the application of basic biologic truths to the healing arts and to develop the principles of osteopathy which were first enunciated by Andrew Taylor Still.

Its pretty sad if you are an osteopathic student and you haven't bothered to read the osteopathic oath.

 

[stlrams22]

So what is your stance on the topic?

My stance is that human life begins at conception and any premed, medical student, and doctor knows that. Abortion should not be used a form of birth control.

 

[touchpause13]

For sure, class covered lots of different aspects of sexual health, pathology, psychosocial issues etc. Pretty decent, probably would have been better to have later on then as a 1st year.

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Mind if I ask which school?

 

[Mehd School]

My stance is that human life begins at conception and any premed, medical student, and doctor knows that.

Obviously I was joking a little bit. I'd bet most individuals who have ever had a conversation with you for more than 10 minutes knows your stance.

I really don't care enough to share my opinion on the topic, but I sure hope that in real life you aren't as naive as you are on this board. Not everyone in healthcare (or otherwise) shares your ideals.

 

[stlrams22]

Obviously I was joking a little bit. I'd bet most individuals who have ever had a conversation with you for more than 10 minutes knows your stance.

I really don't care enough to share my opinion on the topic, but I sure hope that in real life you aren't as naive as you are on this board. Not everyone in healthcare (or otherwise) shares your ideals.

Shares my ideals, are you going to tell me that some doctors believe an unborn child is not living? Its not an ideal, it is an indisputable FACT.

 

[group_theory]

Again, this thread is not about the validity, morality, legality or any other societal aspect of abortions. This is a hot topic that creates emotional responses from both side. And no one will change their mind based on reading a thread or reading a response to a post.

Please stay on topic ... Which is ... "How is abortion taught at your osteopathic med school?"

 

[michigan1212]

Shares my ideals, are you going to tell me that some doctors believe an unborn child is not living? Its not an ideal, it is an indisputable FACT.

Without a doubt abortion is taking the life of an innocent human being. Others can call it what they want...ie, give it a different name to ease their conscience. It is ironic in the world of abortions how the child must be killed inside the mother, if the child is not killed inside the mother everything possible must be done to save the baby's life (partial birth abortion). Kermit Gosnell is an example. It makes me wonder what happens that is so significant that one second the child is disposable and the next it can put a doctor in prison.

Anyways, my question is about becoming a physician and abortions. Is there ever going to be a point when they ask you to do something like this that you do not believe is ethical? Like on a OB/GYN rotation, would I be forced work with a doctor who may do abortions?

 

[touchpause13]

Anyways, my question is about becoming a physician and abortions. Is there ever going to be a point when they ask you to do something like this that you do not believe is ethical? Like on a OB/GYN rotation, would I be forced work with a doctor who may do abortions?[/quote]
I have a feeling you will be hard pressed to NEVER work alongside a physician who is involved in elective terminations. That being said if you have a moral objection you will not be forced to participate in one yourself.

 

[preDoGuy24]

Gentleman I'm not gonna turn this into an abortion debate BUT using such loaded words as murder when it comes to abortion is foolish, and idiotic. You wont know where your patients are coming from, hell even where your colleagues are coming from when it comes to past and current experiences with abortion, you have zero right to label these people as murderers-if you don't like the law change it, as it stands right now our society deems it as moral and acceptable.This is the kind of **** that will get you kicked out or severely punished third year, keep your mouth shut or I guarantee your attending will destroy you-hell I am just a med student and I wouldn't mind hitting a couple of you in the mouth. Some of you sound like you're gonna start saying a womans body "shuts down" in rape, seriously stop.


No-one will be forced to do any procedure on any rotation they are not comfortable with, abortions included...I've never heard of a student in school being involved in one PERIOD. Why not take the opportunity to talk to a preceptor who does them (someone who has so much more clinical experience then yourself as a student it's laughable) instead of bringing in your moral highground and closing your mind?

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[Escape_Goat]

My stance is that human life begins at conception and any premed, medical student, and doctor knows that. Abortion should not be used a form of birth control.

Ugh.

This type of attitude does/will do a real disservice to your patients. The assumption that anyone who has an abortion does so as a means of birth control is indicative of the fact that your personal opinions and emotional response to even the mention of abortion compromise your ability to objectively evaluate the patient's situation and deliver a best outcome.

There are a million and one reasons why someone may opt for an elective abortion beyond backup backup birth control. The patient may not want to elaborate on those reasons with you, particularly if they feel like their being judged by you--their physician. Whatever the reason the patient has to abort, pregnancy terminations are always a tragic, sad event for everyone involved. It's even more tragic when a patient has to deal with further judgement from her physician for her decision.

If you don't want to perform abortions, don't. You can refrain from being present during them for ethical reasons if you so choose.

 

[michigan1212]

Gentleman I'm not gonna turn this into an abortion debate BUT using such loaded words as murder when it comes to abortion is foolish, and idiotic. You wont know where your patients are coming from, hell even where your colleagues are coming from when it comes to past and current experiences with abortion, you have zero right to label these people as murderers-if you don't like the law change it, as it stands right now our society deems it as moral and acceptable.This is the kind of **** that will get you kicked out or severely punished third year, keep your mouth shut or I guarantee your attending will destroy you-hell I am just a med student and I wouldn't mind hitting a couple of you in the mouth. Some of you sound like you're gonna start saying a womans body "shuts down" in rape, seriously stop.


No-one will be forced to do any procedure on any rotation they are not comfortable with, abortions included...I've never heard of a student in school being involved in one PERIOD. Why not take the opportunity to talk to a preceptor who does them (someone who has so much more clinical experience then yourself as a student it's laughable) instead of bringing in your moral highground and closing your mind?

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I'm not going to turn this into an abortion debate, but .....and then you do. Sounds really intelligent.

Usually when someone is killed it is referred to as murder, is it somehow different because the unborn child cannot protect itself? Why is it foolish?...sorry for stating the obvious. You make the false assumption I would be judgmental. My position is not to judge and I would never judge someone, but that doesn't mean I can't label abortion for what it really is. You have made some assumptions about how I will act during medical school that are simply not true.

Sound like you're gonna start saying woman's body shuts down, really???, you must be hearing things. Regardless of what the woman's body does, if pregnancy results from rape, failed contraception, or any other reason, who are you or anyone else to deem another life not worthy of living?

And for saying, "I wouldn't mind hitting a couple of you in the mouth", real tough talk coming from behind your phone. That statement alone would lead most to believe you are a coward.

 

[michigan1212]

Ugh.

This type of attitude does/will do a real disservice to your patients. The assumption that anyone who has an abortion does so as a means of birth control is indicative of the fact that your personal opinions and emotional response to even the mention of abortion compromise your ability to objectively evaluate the patient's situation and deliver a best outcome.

There are a million and one reasons why someone may opt for an elective abortion beyond backup backup birth control. The patient may not want to elaborate on those reasons with you, particularly if they feel like their being judged by you--their physician. Whatever the reason the patient has to abort, pregnancy terminations are always a tragic, sad event for everyone involved. It's even more tragic when a patient has to deal with further judgement from her physician for her decision.

If you don't want to perform abortions, don't. You can refrain from being present during them for ethical reasons if you so choose.

It didn't say that anyone who has an abortion does so as a means of birth control. Again, it seems like people hear what they want. A common tactic in the abortion debate.

A million and one reasons, really? Start naming. Here is a link from a study http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

Rape, incest accounts for less than 1%, but seems to be referred to as the most common reason why abortion should be legal for all.
reason% of abortions
rape or incest1(0.4-1.3)
mother has health problems3(2.8)
possible fetal health problems3(3.3)
unready for responsibility21
is too immature or young to have child11(12.2)
woman's parents want her to have abortion<0.5
has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood12(14.1)
husband or partner wants her to have abortion1
has all the children she wanted or all children are grown8(7.9)
can't afford baby now21(21.3)
concerned about how having baby would change her life16
doesn't want others to know she had relations or is pregnant1
other3

Maybe I can't add correctly, but according to this study approximately 6% of abortions are related to health care reasons. What about the other 94% of the lives taken because its not convenient or other selfish reasons (notice I didn't use the m word)?

Also, from my own family I know people who were forced to have an abortion. I would never ever judge anyone for this reason. I agree about not knowing the circumstances. Chances are it was for a selfish reason, but I wouldn't judge because it wouldn't be worth hurting the very very few who were forced or truly regret having an abortion.

 

[sobored]

I'm not going to turn this into an abortion debate, but .....and then you do. Sounds really intelligent.

Usually when someone is killed it is referred to as murder, is it somehow different because the unborn child cannot protect itself? Why is it foolish?...sorry for stating the obvious. You make the false assumption I would be judgmental. My position is not to judge and I would never judge someone, but that doesn't mean I can't label abortion for what it really is. You have made some assumptions about how I will act during medical school that are simply not true.

Sound like you're gonna start saying woman's body shuts down, really???, you must be hearing things. Regardless of what the woman's body does, if pregnancy results from rape, failed contraception, or any other reason, who are you or anyone else to deem another life not worthy of living?

And for saying, "I wouldn't mind hitting a couple of you in the mouth", real tough talk coming from behind your phone. That statement alone would lead most to believe you are a coward.

You may not want to hear this, but you're judging.

This country has had this debate ad nauseum. The supreme court has ruled on it. Just because you don't like it doesn't permit you to dole out your righteous condemnation of women who choose to do what they wish with their bodies. Do you believe in the rule of law? Don't participate in that type of healthcare if you don't want to, but spare everyone else your non-judgmental judgments.

 

[michigan1212]

You may not want to hear this, but you're judging.

This country has had this debate ad nauseum. The supreme court has ruled on it. Just because you don't like it doesn't permit you to dole out your righteous condemnation of women who choose to do what they wish with their bodies. Do you believe in the rule of law? Don't participate in that type of healthcare if you don't want to, but spare everyone else your non-judgmental judgments.

The supreme court is not the moral authority. When have I shown "righteous condemnation"? I'm not concerned about the women who do what their wish with their bodies, I'm concerned about the human lives cut very very short because they didn't get a say in what happens to their body (didn't use the m word). The rape/incest reason and my body excuse are used ad nauseum, examine the facts and you'll see these are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[sobored]

The supreme court is not the moral authority. When have I shown "righteous condemnation"? I'm not concerned about the women who do what their wish with their bodies, I'm concerned about the human lives cut very very short because they didn't get a say in what happens to their body (didn't use the m word). The rape/incest reason and my body excuse are used ad nauseum, examine the facts and you'll see these are the exception rather than the rule.

Oh sorry about that. I guess you are the moral authority.

 

[michigan1212]

Oh sorry about that. I guess you are the moral authority.

Guessed wrong again.

Here is a scenario. See if you can reason your way through.

A 26 week old fetus is forced to be delivered via c-section because of pregnancy complications. It spends a few months in the NICU and goes home healthy.

OR

A mother decides after 26 weeks of pregnancy she doesn't want to have a child right now because she just got a promotion at work. Two days later she has an abortion and the child is disposed of.

Could you explain to me how the second mother is justified in aborting her pregnancy? How is that moral? There are moral issues that are borderline, abortion is not one. Is it because the child will be an inconvenience or they can't afford it? Does that mean any child 17 and younger could have their life terminated because they are not convenient or because a parent lost their job?

 

[NurWollen]

In b4...

 

[abolt18]

So much for a worthwhile, informational thread. Not even surprised you guys can't refrain from just shutting up and letting the thread continue as "how is abortion taught at your school?"

 

[preDoGuy24]

I'm not going to turn this into an abortion debate, but .....and then you do. Sounds really intelligent.

Usually when someone is killed it is referred to as murder, is it somehow different because the unborn child cannot protect itself? Why is it foolish?...sorry for stating the obvious. You make the false assumption I would be judgmental. My position is not to judge and I would never judge someone, but that doesn't mean I can't label abortion for what it really is. You have made some assumptions about how I will act during medical school that are simply not true.

Sound like you're gonna start saying woman's body shuts down, really???, you must be hearing things. Regardless of what the woman's body does, if pregnancy results from rape, failed contraception, or any other reason, who are you or anyone else to deem another life not worthy of living?

And for saying, "I wouldn't mind hitting a couple of you in the mouth", real tough talk coming from behind your phone. That statement alone would lead most to believe you are a coward.

Yawn.

You're totally right, obviously your moral judgement is the only right one, this is a black and white issue. I totally know more now, the next time I have a patient who has been raped (how many of those conversations have you actually had ? Yeah that's what I thought.) I guess I'll just let her know "Michigan1212 taught me not to judge BUT if you have an abortion that makes you a murderer, I'm sorry that's not a judgment I'm making simply a label of what you will be".

Yeah I never posted myself as a moral authority on this issue, I simply follow the law. I'm glad you speak for most of what people believe of my possible cowardice, good job bro!

This topic has turned into a debate with premeds who have nothing but their parents opinions to contribute, all of which is unrelated to the Ops question.

Good luck fighting the obvious epidemic of career oriented women's late term abortions, I'll enjoy living in reality and becoming a competent physician.

 

[group_theory]

And we're done. Thread locked.