How is important is shadowing/volunteering? Do I need 9999 hours?

[KaplanKrackers]

So I have noticed that many of the people on this forum have hundreds upon hundreds of hours of shadowing and clinical volunteer experience. As a pre-med student I'm 'cultivating' my resume, working my ass off for the MCAT and whatnot, but do I really need that much shadowing/volunteer work?

As of now all I have is about 30hrs volunteering at an ER, and I will hopefully be shadowing an anesthesiologist soon. I plan on doing more, but honestly, I don't want to spend that much time without getting paid. I'm busy with school full time, a part time job at my school, having somewhat of a social life, and other EC's.

I'm just wondering if there is kind of a cutoff point for this stuff. Like a certain number of hours, roughly, that Medschools are looking for? I know basically the more the better, but I'm not willing to spend hundreds of hours folding sheets just to boost my resume.

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[NickNaylor]

You need enough to demonstrate that you know something about the medical field - specifically that you know, as well as a pre-med student can, what's required of entering the medical profession.

 

[pfaction]

I asked and it was said around 50 hours total, between a PCP and hospital was good.

 

[postbacpremed87]

I see a lot of negativity in this post. You must be willing sir. Also you should take some initiative to find ECs where you are doing more than just folding.

So I have noticed that many of the people on this forum have hundreds upon hundreds of hours of shadowing and clinical volunteer experience. As a pre-med student I'm 'cultivating' my resume, working my ass off for the MCAT and whatnot, but do I really need that much shadowing/volunteer work?

As of now all I have is about 30hrs volunteering at an ER, and I will hopefully be shadowing an anesthesiologist soon. I plan on doing more, but honestly, I don't want to spend that much time without getting paid. I'm busy with school full time, a part time job at my school, having somewhat of a social life, and other EC's.

I'm just wondering if there is kind of a cutoff point for this stuff. Like a certain number of hours, roughly, that Medschools are looking for? I know basically the more the better, but I'm not willing to spend hundreds of hours folding sheets just to boost my resume.

 

[sector9]

I asked and it was said around 50 hours total, between a PCP and hospital was good.

50 hours is about average for shadowing (be sure to get a PCP, as pfaction mentions). 150 hours is average for clinical volunteering (per Catalystik)

OP does sound very bitter about having to actually do stuff (heaven forbid that he doesn't get paid!) in order to be admitted to med school

 

[unhappytnt]

OP does sound very bitter about having to actually do stuff (heaven forbid that he doesn't get paid!) in order to be admitted to med school

Shadowing is really boring. I would be bitter too

 

[pfaction]

50 hours is about average for shadowing (be sure to get a PCP, as pfaction mentions). 150 hours is average for clinical volunteering (per Catalystik)

OP does sound very bitter about having to actually do stuff (heaven forbid that he doesn't get paid!) in order to be admitted to med school

1. I learned from SDN! Unfortunately for me I can only do 50 hours...I still haven't found anyone to shadow, by the way.
2. I'm in the same position, dude. I really shouldn't need to shadow an MD, I'm almost positive I know what I'm getting myself into but I guess it'll be an interesting experience....

 

[sector9]

Shadowing is really boring. I would be bitter too

I think it depends on the doctor, but I agree for the most part

 

[drdan83]

See if a hospital in your area provides externships for college students. It's more in-depth shadowing and you usually get a certificate of completion. I'm going to be doing a four-week externship in two weeks.

Someone once arranged for me to shadow a resident at a family practice setting but I was very limited as to what I could do. Some patients didn't want me in the room for certain things. I did get to ask a lot of questions when the doc wasn't busy but I spent a lot of time in the doctor's lounge.

Shadowing a single doctor beyond a few weeks is a waste. It's not like the more you shadow, that you'll turn into a doctor.

 

[NickNaylor]

I thought shadowing was awesome.

 

[pfaction]

I thought shadowing was awesome.

Judging from your application, you got to do stuff. Or you were really into it.

Or you're just weird.

 

[DinoSaysRawr]

See if a hospital in your area provides externships for college students. It's more in-depth shadowing and you usually get a certificate of completion. I'm going to be doing a four-week externship in two weeks.

Someone once arranged for me to shadow a resident at a family practice setting but I was very limited as to what I could do. Some patients didn't want me in the room for certain things. I did get to ask a lot of questions when the doc wasn't busy but I spent a lot of time in the doctor's lounge.

Shadowing a single doctor beyond a few weeks is a waste. It's not like the more you shadow, that you'll turn into a doctor.

What about for LoR? Wouldn't shadowing a physician, and them getting to know you very well, result in a stellar LoR?

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Sorry you're a little off you need 10,000 hours

 

[NickNaylor]

What about for LoR? Wouldn't shadowing a physician, and them getting to know you very well, result in a stellar LoR?

People seem to think physicians will write awesome LORs. I'm not sure why. What can they possibly say? You were curious? You weren't a pain in the ass? There just isn't much a physician can say in a student-mentor shadowing relationship.

 

[postbacpremed87]

I agree. It is good to develop a long-term shadowing relationship with a physician or multiple physicians who could become a mentor/ serve as mentors. A recommendation is much more likely to be phenomenal if you shadowed them longer and developed a friendship/rapport.

I thought shadowing was awesome.

 

[NewYorker9]

Shadow/volunteer until you've had your own "a ha" moment. Once you've had enough clinical exposure to know that medicine is not only the right, but the only, field for you then you've racked up enough hours. As for a number, whatever the number was that it took for you to truly realize what I just said.

 

[KaplanKrackers]

50 hours is about average for shadowing (be sure to get a PCP, as pfaction mentions). 150 hours is average for clinical volunteering (per Catalystik)

OP does sound very bitter about having to actually do stuff (heaven forbid that he doesn't get paid!) in order to be admitted to med school

Unlike (what seems to be) many of the members on this forum, I don't come from an upper middle-class family. My parents are able to pay the bill for college, excluding the loans, but other than that I pay for everything (MCAT study materials, plane tickets home, clothes, textbooks, my laptop, etc...). So yeah, I would rather spend the time picking up extra hours at my part time job.

Also, I don't have a car. I go to school in LA, and public transportation here is a bitch. The closest hospital (where I did my previous volunteer work) takes over an hour to get to by bus, and over an hour back (mostly just because of the waiting around/walking). I'm willing to walk a mile and wait for the bus if that's what I have to do (and no, I don't think my life is that hard at all). I'm just not excited about spending hundreds of hours doing it.


...going back and re-reading my post I do sound really bitter. I'm not that pessimistic of a person, lol, I promise.

But despite your criticism I appreciate the info. And everyone else's responses. Thanks!

 

[MAP2]

Shadow/volunteer until you've had your own "a ha" moment. Once you've had enough clinical exposure to know that medicine is not only the right, but the only, field for you then you've racked up enough hours. As for a number, whatever the number was that it took for you to truly realize what I just said.

+1. There really shouldn't be a "good number" or a "good amount" for the app. I think it's more about being able to tell the committee what you gained from the experiences...

 

[drdan83]

What about for LoR? Wouldn't shadowing a physician, and them getting to know you very well, result in a stellar LoR?

In an externship you are still shadowing a physician. It might be a resident but you can still get an LOR either from them or I'm sure the director of the program can give you one. The idea with the externship is that you are shadowing but you are seeing way more than traditional shadowing.

I'll let you know what my experience was like in about 1.5 months.

Also with the externship, your name is in the hospital's database. It could lead to other opportunities down the road.

 

[NickNaylor]

Shadow/volunteer until you've had your own "a ha" moment. Once you've had enough clinical exposure to know that medicine is not only the right, but the only, field for you then you've racked up enough hours. As for a number, whatever the number was that it took for you to truly realize what I just said.

That's a very good way of putting it.

 

[DareGreatly]

People seem to think physicians will write awesome LORs. I'm not sure why. What can they possibly say? You were curious? You weren't a pain in the ass? There just isn't much a physician can say in a student-mentor shadowing relationship.

A little bit of an over-generalization here. A LOR is dependent on a variety of factors, probably most importantly, the duration of the relationship. There's nothing to say that you cannot get a great recommendation from a doctor you've shadowed. That said, it's optimal if you have multiple fronts of experience with the physician (i.e., he/she's an MD/PhD, and you've done research with them, etc.). Of course, neither myself, nor likely anyone on this thread is a physician, so this is probably here-say for the most part. Good luck, and get some experience shadowing that will help you strengthen your drive and reasoning for becoming a doctor.

 

[NickNaylor]

A little bit of an over-generalization here. A LOR is dependent on a variety of factors, probably most importantly, the duration of a relationship. There's nothing to say that you cannot get a great recommendation from a doctor you've shadowed. That said, it's optimal if you have multiple fronts of experience with the physician (i.e., he/she's an MD/PhD, and you've done research with them, etc.). Of course, neither myself, nor likely anyone on this thread is a physician, so this is probably here-say for the most part. Good luck, and get some experience shadowing that will help you strengthen your drive and reasoning for becoming a doctor.

That's entirely different than getting a letter from a physician who is just a clinician. A letter from a MD/PhD would be very valuable, especially since he/she can speak to your ability with respect to research.

Again I ask the question: what can a physician that you've interacted with only in a shadowing relationship possibly say about you that's worth a letter? Maybe a letter from a clinician can be valuable, but I don't understand why they seem to be so prized here.

 

[KaplanKrackers]

In an externship you are still shadowing a physician. It might be a resident but you can still get an LOR either from them or I'm sure the director of the program can give you one. The idea with the externship is that you are shadowing but you are seeing way more than traditional shadowing.

I'll let you know what my experience was like in about 1.5 months.

Also with the externship, your name is in the hospital's database. It could lead to other opportunities down the road.

I'll definitely look into externships. Never heard of them but they sound pretty ideal.

 

[DareGreatly]

That's entirely different than getting a letter from a physician who is just a clinician. A letter from a MD/PhD would be very valuable, especially since he/she can speak to your ability with respect to research.

Again I ask the question: what can a physician that you've interacted with only in a shadowing relationship possibly say about you that's worth a letter? Maybe a letter from a clinician can be valuable, but I don't understand why they seem to be so prized here.

I was citing an example of how you could strengthen the relationship, and thus the LOR. The answer to your question is simple; it's the same as any good LOR. If you have a long relationship, a physician can highlight what separates you from the rest of the pre-meds he/she has interacted with. (He/she may be able to do this in a more meaningful way, since he/she is in medicine.) Did you ask for things to read to better acclimate yourself with the specialty? Were you personable? Did things you talked about outside of the consults/OTVs/operations stand out? I think what you're getting at is that shadowing is, on the surface, a passive activity. However, it doesn't have to be. It's up to the pre-med to make it an active learning/ meaningful experience. You're simply giving a one-size-fits-all statement. I'm saying that it depends on the relationship. Obviously, you don't want to ask a doctor you've shadowed a few times to be your end-all, save-all recommender. That's all.

 

[NickNaylor]

I was citing an example of how you could strengthen the relationship, and thus the LOR. The answer to your question is simple; it's the same as any good LOR. If you have a long relationship, a physician can highlight what separates you from the rest of the pre-meds he/she has interacted with. (He/she may be able to do this in a more meaningful way, since he/she is in medicine.) Did you ask for things to read to better acclimate yourself with the specialty? Were you personable? Did things you talked about outside of the consults/OTVs/operations stand out? I think what you're getting at is that shadowing is, on the surface, a passive activity. However, it doesn't have to be. It's up to the pre-med to make it an active learning/ meaningful experience. You're simply giving a one-size-fits-all statement. I'm saying that it depends on the relationship. Obviously, you don't want to ask a doctor you've shadowed a few times to be your end-all, save-all recommender. That's all.

I agree with this sentiment, but even given your examples, the doctor can simply say that 1) you know how to interact with people and 2) you were interested in the field. In the big scheme of things, these evaluations really aren't that helpful when evaluating your ability and aptitude for medical school. A professor can say that you were one of the best students they've ever had A PI can say that you learned quickly and were able to successfully design experiments and analyze data to produce your own conclusions. A supervisor can say that you volunteered/worked professionally and were a top-caliber employee/volunteer and discuss your responsibilities. A physician can say... you didn't scare the patients away (obvious hyperbole, but the point still stands)?

My point is simply that in almost every way a professor, supervisor, or PI can write a stronger letter than a physician that you've shadowed. I don't think a physician letter is a necessary aspect of one's collection of letters as many SDN users seem to think. I think spending that time to get a solid LOR from a professor would be a better use of time and effort.

But at the end of the day it's all conjecture. I could be entirely off base. But the people that I've talked to in admissions have minimized the importance of physician LORs.

 

[DareGreatly]

I agree with this sentiment, but even given your examples, the doctor can simply say that 1) you know how to interact with people and 2) you were interested in the field. In the big scheme of things, these evaluations really aren't that helpful when evaluating your ability and aptitude for medical school. A professor can say that you were one of the best students they've ever had A PI can say that you learned quickly and were able to successfully design experiments and analyze data to produce your own conclusions. A supervisor can say that you volunteered/worked professionally and were a top-caliber employee/volunteer and discuss your responsibilities. A physician can say... you didn't scare the patients away (obvious hyperbole, but the point still stands)?

My point is simply that in almost every way a professor, supervisor, or PI can write a stronger letter than a physician that you've shadowed. I don't think a physician letter is a necessary aspect of one's collection of letters as many SDN users seem to think. I think spending that time to get a solid LOR from a professor would be a better use of time and effort.

But at the end of the day it's all conjecture. I could be entirely off base. But the people that I've talked to in admissions have minimized the importance of physician LORs.

Remember, the admissions committee places great importance on your desire to pursue medicine. Don't downplay what you've listed as 1 and 2. I'm from Baltimore, and I've talked to a few physicians that have served/are serving on JHU's board. Obviously, they say the "why" factor is huge. You're committing yourself to 4 more years of school, then 3+ years of additional training. As we've both stated, this is speculative, but I think a physician that writes a recommendation stating that student X is crazy about medicine, and gives examples of why he was able to perceive that, could be a valuable asset to your set of LORs. Many people can write that they are interested in pursuing something (in this case, medicine), but it's amplified if they can emanate it. That said, we both think it's optimal if one combines shadowing with another medically-related experience (research). These types of relationships are the best, because you can be recommended from multiple perspectives (this can be extrapolated to other types of recommenders -- i.e., a professor that you had classes with and also did community service with, or something of the like).

 

[Ladoctora44]

Quick Answer: Yes, it is important, but No you do not need 9999 hours. That is an unrealistic number. More like 8000 hours.


But in all seriousness, it would be good to get a variety of shadowing experience. For volunteering, I believe that the quality is better than the quantity. (but try to have more than one)

 

[music2doc]

OP, most of us got to hundreds or thousands of clinical hours without trying. My total numbers of clinical and volunteering hours are easily over 3,000 and 1,000 respectively, but I didn't earn them by muscling my way through. The hours were gained through a combination of volunteering that I enjoy (i.e., at a clinic, at church, on an EMS squad, etc.) and through paid employment (as well as some scribing and shadowing). I can't imagine doing this stuff just to have the right number of hours. That sounds absolutely horrendous! If you don't enjoy the volunteer experience you're getting somewhere, here's a thought: QUIT! Find somewhere you can enjoy. Find something that fits your personal talents. Find somewhere where you'll be useful. Likewise, find jobs that are clinical in nature. While many require a CNA or EMT cert/license, there are exceptions -- you just have to find them!

 

[NickNaylor]

OP, most of us got to hundreds or thousands of clinical hours without trying. My total numbers of clinical and volunteering hours are easily over 3,000 and 1,000 respectively, but I didn't earn them by muscling my way through. The hours were gained through a combination of volunteering that I enjoy (i.e., at a clinic, at church, on an EMS squad, etc.) and through paid employment (as well as some scribing and shadowing). I can't imagine doing this stuff just to have the right number of hours. That sounds absolutely horrendous! If you don't enjoy the volunteer experience you're getting somewhere, here's a thought: QUIT! Find somewhere you can enjoy. Find something that fits your personal talents. Find somewhere where you'll be useful. Likewise, find jobs that are clinical in nature. While many require a CNA or EMT cert/license, there are exceptions -- you just have to find them!

Uh... no. I don't think that's true of "most of us." Especially that part about having thousands of hours.

 

[deathvvv]

How is important is shadowing/volunteering? Do I need 9999 hours?

This is not Final Fantasy VII.

Do as much/as little extracurricular as you want, just make sure they are meaningful to you and you can confidently explain to the adcoms what you did/why it shaped your decision to go into medicine (although it may be hard to explain why you want to be a doc if you only brought patient meals for one hour and quit).

 

[music2doc]

Uh... no. I don't think that's true of "most of us." Especially that part about having thousands of hours.

Maybe I should rephrase that -- those of us who have thousands of hours probably did so without "trying". By "trying" I mean putting in effort specifically to gain those hours. You don't get thousands of hours by doing something you dislike. Sure, there is still effort involved, but it isn't the same kind of effort. People with thousands of hours usually have consistent jobs or volunteer positions they enjoy. (It only makes sense -- if you don't enjoy your position, you're likely to burn out pretty quickly working it 20+ hrs/wk throughout your college years.) If they didn't enjoy what they were doing, it is highly unlikely they would ever reach "thousands of hours" (maybe a few hundred but even then, I'd think the majority have found something they enjoy -- at least I hope so). If you muscled your way through your clinical experiences as a premed, then I am genuinely sorry. I am a firm believer in finding pre-medical students good opportunities to work with patients in whatever capacity they are able that is also enjoyable to them and utilizes their individual strengths. I realize that doesn't always happen, but if someone looks far and wide, s/he will likely find something. I live in a moderate size city and I've found several such volunteer locations in which I am involved and where I have also been able to plug in other students for similar experiences. Unless you live in the middle of nowhere, I'd think most places would have such jewels (you simply may have to search them out or contact a free clinic [or church, hospital, or other charitable organization] and work with them to start a new program).

 

[StudyShy]

Maybe I should rephrase that -- those of us who have thousands of hours probably did so without "trying". By "trying" I mean putting in effort specifically to gain those hours. You don't get thousands of hours by doing something you dislike. Sure, there is still effort involved, but it isn't the same kind of effort. People with thousands of hours usually have consistent jobs or volunteer positions they enjoy. (It only makes sense -- if you don't enjoy your position, you're likely to burn out pretty quickly working it 20+ hrs/wk throughout your college years.) If they didn't enjoy what they were doing, it is highly unlikely they would ever reach "thousands of hours" (maybe a few hundred but even then, I'd think the majority have found something they enjoy -- at least I hope so). If you muscled your way through your clinical experiences as a premed, then I am genuinely sorry. I am a firm believer in finding pre-medical students good opportunities to work with patients in whatever capacity they are able that is also enjoyable to them and utilizes their individual strengths. I realize that doesn't always happen, but if someone looks far and wide, s/he will likely find something. I live in a moderate size city and I've found several such volunteer locations in which I am involved and where I have also been able to plug in other students for similar experiences. Unless you live in the middle of nowhere, I'd think most places would have such jewels (you simply may have to search them out or contact a free clinic [or church, hospital, or other charitable organization] and work with them to start a new program).

I am in those boat. I had to evaluate the last ten years of my life and see what I have done since I am a nontraditional pre-med. At first I was crapping my pants thinking about how I would go to two different schools, work full time, raise my three kids, and garner zillions of hours of volunteering. However without even trying, I have some good EC's. My life is centered on service to others. Everyone has different values, though, so I can understand how some may view volunteering as one more hoop to jump through.

 

[MeowMeowCAT]

9999 hours is not that much.

 

[KaplanKrackers]

I am in those boat. I had to evaluate the last ten years of my life and see what I have done since I am a nontraditional pre-med. At first I was crapping my pants thinking about how I would go to two different schools, work full time, raise my three kids, and garner zillions of hours of volunteering. However without even trying, I have some good EC's. My life is centered on service to others. Everyone has different values, though, so I can understand how some may view volunteering as one more hoop to jump through.

You're life is centered around service to others? I guess compared to your superior values I must just be a pathetic piece of scum. Haha, common now, I can't believe you are serious with this post.

 

[StudyShy]

You're life is centered around service to others? I guess compared to your superior values I must just be a pathetic piece of scum. Haha, common now, I can't believe you are serious with this post.

Everyone has different interests and values which are not necessarily better or worse than other people's. I have chosen my life which is right for me but maybe not for you. The health field is becoming increasingly more service oriented.

I also don't look down on other people because I know what it feels like to be treated like pond scum, and I would not wish that on anybody.