How is race evaluated during admissions?

[genghis99]

Just wondering how adcoms factor in race into their decision to admit applicants:
- When discussing "ORM" (White/Asian) students, is there a difference between White and Asian? Generally, the attitude seems to be that if you're comparing to White as baseline, then you're further disadvantaged for being an Asian applicant. How does this play out? Is there an implicit expectation that you should be bringing higher stats as an Asian applicant?

- Here and on Reddit, applicants are alleging that advisors at top undergraduate schools are recommending retakes of <520 MCAT; one mentioned that top schools will even screen out ORM applicants with < 517 MCAT. Is this a known practice?

-Overall, how does "race" even get evaluated in the context of holistic admissions? Is it given some sort of a point value? So for example, if you were a Black applicant with a 515, that would be equivalent to a White applicant with a 518 and an Asian applicant with a 521?

Appreciate your insights

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[LunaOri]

1. Don’t believe anything you see on Reddit.
2. Each school has its own definition of underrepresented, and a list of specific minority groups it would like to recruit for the purposes of diversity. While Black and Latinx, and LGBTQ are on most of those lists, there are other underrepresented groups that may be recruited, depending on the school.
3. Everyone else is considered ORM and treated equally. White, Asian, South Asian, Middle Eastern, whatever. There aren’t separate stat cutoffs for each group.

 

[Lucca]

No one is being screened out for having less than a 520 lmao.

The absolute best thing you can do to understand how med admissions works is to wrap your head around WARS.

WedgeDawg's Applicant Rating System (Updated Jan 2017)

Link to online WARS Calculator Latest version is 1.3 (Released January 2017) Collaborator credit: @To be MD Introduction As some of you may have seen, I've recently been pioneering a new system that helps applicants figure out where they stand with respect to medical school admissions as...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[Angus Avagadro]

You won't get a straight answer from any adcom. Race is almost impossible to discuss in these times. I have had some lively discussions with regards to disadvantaged candidates who have marginal stats. Do we accept and shred their self esteem if academic failures occur or advise SMP so they are better prepared for M1? I don't truly know what the right answer as I have seen both success and failures with marginal stat candidates.

 

[Med Ed]

Race, like everything else in the application, is ideally viewed in the context of the individual applicant.

Say you are on the admissions committee of a primary care school. You have an applicant who is Hispanic, first generation, bilingual, SES disadvantaged, took five years to graduate college (while working), with GPA and MCAT that are above your school's cutoffs but below your averages for accepted students. Experiences are fine given the background and time demands of working while going to school. Letters are fine, personal statement describes wanting to eventually go back and serve his community, which is lacking doctors.

What do you think? Take a chance on this one?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Each schools has their own unofficial quotas for various groups race/ethnicity/orientation/SES/non-traditional but they would never admit to that. However based on their class profiles you can figure it out. So based on their quotas and school reputation baseline GPA and MCAT for each group varies but they won’t give that info. you may be able to figure by looking at school specific threads on SDN.

data from top two schools

Student Demographics | UCSF Medical Education

As of Fall 2023 • 734 enrolled students*Updated annually November 1.

meded.ucsf.edu

Class Statistics

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

 

[Goro]

Race is not discussed at my school, but low SES are sought after as they are likely to fulfill our mission.

And reddit is the cesspool of the internet.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Race is not discussed at my school, but low SES are sought after as they are likely to fulfill our mission.

And reddit is the cesspool of the internet.

Does your school publish class profile and classify students under different categories/groups?

 

[MDMechEngr]

AAMC has demographics data for Matriculated students for every MD schools for the current year and the previous two.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

AAMC has demographics data for Matriculated students for every MD schools for the current year and the previous two.

Are they schools required to provide info even those that don't consider race?

 

[KnightDoc]

1. Don’t believe anything you see on Reddit.
2. Each school has its own definition of underrepresented, and a list of specific minority groups it would like to recruit for the purposes of diversity. While Black and Latinx, and LGBTQ are on most of those lists, there are other underrepresented groups that may be recruited, depending on the school.
3. Everyone else is considered ORM and treated equally. White, Asian, South Asian, Middle Eastern, whatever. There aren’t separate stat cutoffs for each group.

I hadn't seen this before, since the "O" stands for over represented, and Whites, not Hispanic or Latino, represent 60% of the US population according to the Census Bureau and 56% of US doctors according to AAMC. I have always believed it mainly referred to Asians, since all of the other demographic groups are too small to have the term over or under represented have any meaning.

Whites are certainly the largest single demographic group, but they are not over represented. To OP's point, I have always considered them the baseline, with Asians being over represented, with higher statistics, and Blacks and Hispanics being under represented, with lower statistics. "Equal" treatment certainly depends on one's perspective, since any process that considers anything beyond objective measures (GPA, MCAT, EC hours and categories, etc.) could be perceived to be unequal by anyone who does not achieve their desired result.

The goals of increasing access are noble, but it's worth remembering that it's a zero sum game, so every seat that goes to someone in a group being "recruited" comes from someone else who might not feel they are being treated "equally."

 

[Med Ed]

Each schools has their own unofficial quotas for various groups race/ethnicity/orientation/SES/non-traditional but they would never admit to that.

That's because this statement is false.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

That's because this statement is false.

You can’t prove it’s false and I can’t prove it’s true either but you can clearly see the patterns if you look at last few years data.

 

[deleted1025488]

No one is being screened out for having less than a 520 lmao.

LizzyM said once that their school essentially screens 517 for ORM, but in same vein mentioned that they are one of the 'stat' schools....not sure if I can find that statement but I remember it because of how shocked I was lol. Obviously this would only apply to like 5 schools but yea. Dunno, is this true or was that an exaggeration?

 

[solitarius]

ORM refers to Asians: East Asians, South Asians, and Middle Eastern.

The numbers gap between ORMs and White exists, but is fairly mild.

 

[deleted1080380]

LizzyM said once that their school essentially screens 517 for ORM, but in same vein mentioned that they are one of the 'stat' schools....not sure if I can find that statement but I remember it because of how shocked I was lol. Obviously this would only apply to like 5 schools but yea. Dunno, is this true or was that an exaggeration?

Even if this were to be true, which based off of the 10th percentile medians for those schools probably is, it doesn't merit retaking anything below a 517...there are still a lot of "top schools" that have 513-515 10th percentiles if you are gunning for those.

 

[Med Ed]

You can’t prove it’s false and I can’t prove it’s true either but you can clearly see the patterns if you look at last few years data.

If medical school admissions committees used quota systems the demographics of accepted students would look very different than they actually do. Instead there are fewer Black men enrolled in medical school than there were in 1980. The median income of parents of matriculating medical students continues to be over twice the median income of the rest of the country. Only 15% come from families with incomes below the median.

The use of racial quotas in college admission was also banned by the Supreme Court in 1978 (University of California v. Bakke).

If you are looking for quotas, I suggest you try the university's fundraising office.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

If medical school admissions committees used quota systems the demographics of accepted students would look very different than they actually do. Instead there are fewer Black men enrolled in medical school than there were in 1980. The median income of parents of matriculating medical students continues to be over twice the median income of the rest of the country. Only 15% come from families with incomes below the median.

The use of racial quotas in college admission was also banned by the Supreme Court in 1978 (University of California v. Bakke).

If you are looking for quotas, I suggest you try the university's fundraising office.

I am aware that it’s illegal to have quotas in CA and hence no school will admit they have quotas but use holistic process to achieve the diversity goals.

as per income issue, lot of URMs are from upper income families.

Btw, I am not against considering race as a favor for medical school admissions but again specific quotas/targets.

 

[Med Ed]

I am aware that it’s illegal to have quotas in CA and hence no school will admit they have quotas but use holistic process to achieve the diversity goals.

as per income issue, lot of URMs are from upper income families.

Btw, I am not against considering race as a favor for medical school admissions but again specific quotas/targets.

Then you're in luck.

(UC v. Bakke was not just limited to CA, btw).

 

[gyngyn]

The MSAR provides information on race for each school for each of the previous 4 years.
The AAMC also provides national data. 2020 FACTS: Applicants and Matriculants Data
Schools do not have quotas for race or ethnicity. They may have missions that prioritize a commitment to service to particular groups, though.
Closing.