How is the AOA so out of touch?

[StrengthDoc]

After seeing numerous threads on the subject, I'm curious what they are thinking on a regular basis.

The most recent WTF moment has been the AOA/COCA venture into for-profit medical education.

Numerous posts have mentioned that the LCME does not allow this, but they are not alone. While I know chiropractic schools tend to get "glowing" feedback here on SDN, I found it interesting that their accrediting body (CCE) has this as one of it's primary qualifications for being considered:

A charter indicating it is incorporated under the laws of the state of its residence as a non-profit, non-proprietary institution exempt from taxation due to its devotion to educational purposes.

So out of the three largest (by number of practitioners) bodies, only the AOA/COCA allow this conflict of interest.​

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[toothless rufus]

Parallel Universe. Black Holes. String Theory. Breakdancing.

 

[sop21]

The AOA is not out of touch it is trying to expand the osteopathic profession even more. The tremendous growth over the past 10 or so years has been great. Think about it when has being a DO been this good. It has never been this good, now DOs can get pretty much any residency they want even at allopathic institutions, students are able to rotate at almost any hospital and DOs are gaining respect nationwide. All these stupid people complaining about the AOA and RVU fail to see how bad osteopathic physicians had it years ago. I'm pretty sure the people in charge at the AOA are a little bit brighter than a bunch of idiots posting on Sdn

 

[simpleman]

let more schools open up... Stop being stupid...I need to see at least 15 more schools opening up in the next 5 years or so. We need to increase the number of DO physicians b/c they are needed everywhere....even in the military, they prefer DOs over MD....RVU is a good....despite the comments around sdn

 

[cyclohexanol]

... I'm pretty sure the people in charge at the AOA are a little bit brighter than a bunch of idiots posting on Sdn

Oh c'mon now, don't you have work to be doing there at the AOA office? You smell like a bridge.

 

[cyclohexanol]

let more schools open up... Stop being stupid...I need to see at least 15 more schools opening up in the next 5 years or so. We need to increase the number of DO physicians b/c they are needed everywhere....even in the military, they prefer DOs over MD....RVU is a good....despite the comments around sdn

I LOL'd... especially about RVU being a good (a good what, I don't know) since it hasn't even opened yet. Also the part about 15 schools in 5 years, that was classic. It's almost like DO schools are a franchise! LOLOLOL

This is the best example of sarcasm I have ever seen. Awesome work man.

 

[StrengthDoc]

It's almost like DO schools are a franchise! LOLOLOL

I see McRVU's opening up everywhere!! Over 1 billion DO's served....

 

[sop21]

The problem with the AOA and osteopathic medicine is they have members like the *******es who posted above who care nothing about the DO profession and bash it every chance they get. You should be promoting osteopathy instead of making comments about the AOA I read these types of posts everyday and its probably the worst thing about being a DO. Have some pride in your profession and support the causes the AOA is working towards as they will ultimately help your career in the future. As I have said before RVU will be one of the best schools in the country in a few years and hopefully help open the door for new schools, new residencies, and better students

 

[cyclohexanol]

Your point comes across so eloquently when you call people idiots and *******es. Good job.

The problem with the AOA and osteopathic medicine is they have members like the *******es who posted above who care nothing about the DO profession and bash it every chance they get. You should be promoting osteopathy instead of making comments about the AOA I read these types of posts everyday and its probably the worst thing about being a DO. Have some pride in your profession and support the causes the AOA is working towards as they will ultimately help your career in the future. As I have said before RVU will be one of the best schools in the country in a few years and hopefully help open the door for new schools, new residencies, and better students

 

[sop21]

No one is trying to change your mind about this your already biased I just hope new SDN readers will see that not everyone feels like the AOA is harming DO medical students. Unfortunately as I said people like you constantly bash osteopathic medicine even though you eagerly accepted a spot at an osteopathic medical school when it was offered to you. Thankfully you don't represent the vast majority of osteopathic physicians and students who support RVU and are excited about its opening.

 

[StrengthDoc]

The problem with the AOA and osteopathic medicine is they have members like the *******es who posted above who care nothing about the DO profession and bash it every chance they get. You should be promoting osteopathy instead of making comments about the AOA I read these types of posts everyday and its probably the worst thing about being a DO. Have some pride in your profession and support the causes the AOA is working towards as they will ultimately help your career in the future. As I have said before RVU will be one of the best schools in the country in a few years and hopefully help open the door for new schools, new residencies, and better students

With this level of eloquence, it's tough to debate the issue.

How is hoping the DO profession will not go down a commercial/mercenary path equal to not caring? I think most of the posters on this subject have felt, after taking the time to consider the issue, that this is not the best path for the profession. Maybe if you took some time to intelligently research the issue instead of communicating on a 3rd grade level you might come to a similar conclusion.

 

[sop21]

The only people who have spoken out about the school are a few misinformed medical students that post on sdn. As I said an overwhelming majority are very excited about the school. Medicine and education are a businesses whether you like it or not the sooner you accept that the better off you will be. RVU is a pioneer exploring a new way to improve both unfortunatly people like you don't give it a chance

 

[StrengthDoc]

As I said an overwhelming majority are very excited about the school.

I would love to see impartial proof that the "overwhelming majority" of people think that DeVry Med School is very exciting.

RVU is a pioneer exploring a new way to improve both unfortunatly people like you don't give it a chance

I am sorry to be the one to burst your bubble, but profiteering has been around for a long time. RVU is certainly not a pioneer in this area.

 

[cyclohexanol]

The only people who have spoken out about the school are a few misinformed medical students that post on sdn. As I said an overwhelming majority are very excited about the school. Medicine and education are a businesses whether you like it or not the sooner you accept that the better off you will be. RVU is a pioneer exploring a new way to improve both unfortunatly people like you don't give it a chance

Where is this 'overwhelming majority' who are very excited about the school (other than the people who are going to get jobs there and the people who invest in RVU)? And if I recall correctly, the July issue of JAOA featured an article about RVU and for-profit schools in general that wasn't written by 'a few misinformed medical students that post on SDN' (http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/107/7/246-b).

The only thing RVU is pioneering is for-profit medical education on mainland US. There are plenty of medical schools that are run as for-profit businesses in the caribbean, so don't try to say that RVU is pioneering some new and great business model that will result in a paradigm shift in medical education.

 

[sop21]

One letter by one Physician who has a history of complaints about the AOA proves nothing. (This guy also complains about internships and everything else DO related) Why don't you ask every Dean and President of every other DO school whether they support RVU. Of course they support it because it is good for osteopathic medicine. Not one of them has come out and said anything against RVU. Just because something is published in a magazine doesn't make it true.

AOA leadership, Presidents and Deans of every DO school in the US is for RVU
One Physician in Mississippi and a couple SDNers are against RVU

I would say thats pretty good support for RVU

 

[cyclohexanol]

One letter by one Physician who has a history of complaints about the AOA proves nothing. (This guy also complains about internships and everything else DO related) Why don't you ask every Dean and President of every other DO school whether they support RVU. Of course they support it because it is good for osteopathic medicine. Not one of them has come out and said anything against RVU. Just because something is published in a magazine doesn't make it true.

AOA leadership, Presidents and Deans of every DO school in the US is for RVU
One Physician in Mississippi and a couple SDNers are against RVU

I would say thats pretty good support for RVU

It may not make it true, but I haven't seen any letters in support of it yet (other than the letter from the president of RVU who obviously has a vested interest in the school).

Your suggestion that the deans of every DO school in the US support RVU doesn't make it true either (nor does it make the assumption that they actually support it true). I have seen no reports that every dean is in support of the school, and I doubt you have talked directly with said deans to determine their stance on the issue. Furthermore, from my admittedly limited direct experience with the AOA, they seem like a fairly paternalistic organization, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they pressure school officials to fall in line. Lastly, it wouldn't even matter if every dean supports the school. The number of osteopathic deans in the country seems to currently be 27 (+/- due to pending accreditations). The number of DOs in the country is ~55k with >2k graduating every year. Unless I'm mistaken, 55k is greater than 27. From what I've seen, most professional organizations [should] try to represent their constiuency because they like to retain membership and fees and such. Unless of course, this organization really is paternalistic, then it wouldn't matter.

I'd also argue that Dr M doesn't complain about everything else DO related, from reading his other writings it seems that he is a strong proponent of the DO profession, and feels that RVU is a negative force in the progression of the profession. Do you think his "complaints" about OGME are not validated? I'd love to see you justify how its good for the profession that the majority of osteopathic graduates go to ACGME programs, and that a high number of OGME slots go unfilled every year. Pushing for more OGME programs in more desirable specialties and locations is only going to help the profession.

If anything, his writings are a result of being overprotective of the profession. Your writings, however, still smack of either being an investor or an employee of RVU or the AOA, and you have not given anyone any reason to think otherwise.




PS - "magazine"? I thought you were trying to advocate for the AOA. Why would you diss them by calling their premiere journal publication a magazine?

 

[Animus]

Sooo, do you think Carribean medical schools are on par with MD schools in the US? Its funny because last time I checked they were even behind DO's in pecking order of residencies...

I do not think many people are very enthusiastic about for profit institutions like those...but I would like to hear your view sop21.

 

[sop21]

Carribean Medical Schools have been putting out very capable physicians for years. Take a look and see how many pass the USMLE, graduate and enter US residency programs each year. The vast majority seem to do just as well as the average DO student and MD student trained in US medical schools. The major reason Carribean schools are behind the pecking order of US medical schools is mainly because of the old notion that US trained MDs are better than Carribean MDs even though in many cases they are equal or better. US trained MDs feel the same way about DOs even though we all know DO students are just as well trained as MD students.

As I said before the only people who aren't excited about RVU are a handful of SDNers who need to boost their egos by running down the school

 

[Animus]

I am not sure that just because 1 in 30 Carribean grads is respected does not mean they are all respected or should be.

There is also no reason to hate RV yet...however, in five years if a bunch more for-profits open up and become factories...you will be eating your words.

 

[sop21]

I am not sure that just because 1 in 30 Carribean grads is respected does not mean they are all respected or should be.

There is also no reason to hate RV yet...however, in five years if a bunch more for-profits open up and become factories...you will be eating your words.

I believe more than 1 in 30 are respected I don't know where you get your statistics.

In five years if 10 more for profit DO schools open that will be horrible oh my god that means that there will be many more DOs and that means all our internship and residency positions will finally start filling up and that means there won't be a shortage of physicians in the future. What a nightmare!! I think its funny how scared DOs are of growth most of you would be happy to close every school except Kirksville.

Face it Carribean medical schools are very successful hopefully osteopathic medical schools using their same formula will become even more successful.

 

[medhacker]

I believe more than 1 in 30 are respected I don't know where you get your statistics.

In five years if 10 more for profit DO schools open that will be horrible oh my god that means that there will be many more DOs and that means all our internship and residency positions will finally start filling up and that means there won't be a shortage of physicians in the future. What a nightmare!! I think its funny how scared DOs are of growth most of you would be happy to close every school except Kirksville.

Face it Carribean medical schools are very successful hopefully osteopathic medical schools using their same formula will become even more successful.

Your equation is missing some values: Medicare is not increasing GME. Allopathic schools are also expanding.

Opening for-profit osteopathic schools is easier than non-profit. Therefore, if in a relatively short amount of time, we have a high increase in DOs and an increase in MDs [as it very well seems it will be] without increasing GME, it is no longer a sweet walk in the park for future graduates.


Add to the above the IMGs.

Federal GME money is not showing any signs of increasing. No more money = no new residencies = not good...

There aren't enough DO residencies for all DO graduates as it is today. What is going to happen if MDs start filling their residencies and we graduate more DOs than there are residencies for?

 

[cyclohexanol]

I believe more than 1 in 30 are respected I don't know where you get your statistics.

In five years if 10 more for profit DO schools open that will be horrible oh my god that means that there will be many more DOs and that means all our internship and residency positions will finally start filling up and that means there won't be a shortage of physicians in the future. What a nightmare!! I think its funny how scared DOs are of growth most of you would be happy to close every school except Kirksville.

Face it Carribean medical schools are very successful hopefully osteopathic medical schools using their same formula will become even more successful.

1) Nobody said anything about closing schools, we like the schools that are open and aren't trying to make profits for their investors [read: are trying to have positive cash flow to be reinvested in the university, not some rich fool's pockets].
2) Those residency spots go unfilled because nobody wants them.
2b) You think that by having more DO graduates and fewer spots, therefore -forcing- graduates into those undesireable spots is a good thing??
3) I pity da foo
4) Fail and lulz

 

[Animus]

I believe more than 1 in 30 are respected I don't know where you get your statistics.

In five years if 10 more for profit DO schools open that will be horrible oh my god that means that there will be many more DOs and that means all our internship and residency positions will finally start filling up and that means there won't be a shortage of physicians in the future. What a nightmare!! I think its funny how scared DOs are of growth most of you would be happy to close every school except Kirksville.

Face it Carribean medical schools are very successful hopefully osteopathic medical schools using their same formula will become even more successful.

See the stupid people on here that dont like RV just believe that more is not always better. We believe in quality over quantity. Pumping out the max numbers of DO's asap with new programs with crappy professors and training does not seem appealing to us. Not sure how you are debating this...but try as you will...

 

[MaximusD]

The fact is that Carib schools do NOT have the USMLE pass rate or the match rate that US-MD or US-DO schools do.

Why is this?

It is because they are for-profit institutions. They have very little vested interest in seeing those they accept pass... thus, they have extremely high attrition rates as compared to the usual <5% of US MD/DO schools. They accept applicants with lower scores, because they often have little-to-no care about whether those they accept are actually capable of passing a medical school curriculum or whether they are capable of passing the boards.

SOP, because of this I don't think that your argument holds any water...

The tax status of "for-profit" does not constitute anything bad on its own, but when you consider the fact that the ownership of RVU is in bed with ownership of Carib schools, it is not difficult to connect the dots. While the for-profit motivation may be dampened, I think it is fair to assume that RVU will care less about its students and more about its bottom-line than the average non-profit medical school.

And I agree, quality should always be the primary concern even in the midst of a physician shortage crisis.

One thing that I like is that the mountain states finally will have a DO school... my hope would be that more DO internships and residnecies will become available in this area in the future and that medicare will begin funding new spots... probably a pipe dream.

Oh and I don't think that DO schools need to aspire to reach carib school levels of quality... Ask any US physician to compare the quality of one of the big four carib schools to PCOM, then get back to me.

 

[scpod]

Ask any US physician to compare the quality of one of the big four carib schools to PCOM, then get back to me.

One thing you may have forgotten is that somewhere around 23% of current US physicians are actually IMG's according to some sources. In 2006 nearly 9000 IMG's entered the match. Over 20,000 are currently in GME now. Granted, only a percentage of those are Carribean grads, yet I'm not so sure that they would agreee with you.

 

[MaximusD]

One thing you may have forgotten is that somewhere around 23% of current US physicians are actually IMG's according to some sources. In 2006 nearly 9000 IMG's entered the match. Over 20,000 are currently in GME now. Granted, only a percentage of those are Carribean grads, yet I'm not so sure that they would agreee with you.

good point. I am sure you can get a good education at a carib school, but that isn't the issue...

I was discussing the school's care about how successful their students are... The attrition rates of these for-profit insitution bear out their emphasis on accepting students who can pay vs those who are qualified...

 

[sop21]

Why would any medical school not care if their students passed the boards? Thats a stupid assumption to think that Carribean Medical Schools and RVU don't care whether their students pass. A high board failure rate would doom a school. Why do you think the big 3 Carribean schools make there students have to pass other exams before they can take the USMLE. The reason is they want to keep their board failure rate to a minimum so the school will be more attractive to applicants. I will admit that their probably aren't as many tutors, or oppurtunities for help at a Carribean medical school as there are at PCOM but personally if you have to have a lot of help to learn the basics of medicine I wouldn't want you to be my doctor.

Luckily for you good ole PCOM is there to hold your hand through medical school.

 

[MaximusD]

Why would any medical school not care if their students passed the boards? Thats a stupid assumption to think that Carribean Medical Schools and RVU don't care whether their students pass. A high board failure rate would doom a school. Why do you think the big 3 Carribean schools make there students have to pass other exams before they can take the USMLE. The reason is they want to keep their board failure rate to a minimum so the school will be more attractive to applicants. I will admit that their probably aren't as many tutors, or oppurtunities for help at a Carribean medical school as there are at PCOM but personally if you have to have a lot of help to learn the basics of medicine I wouldn't want you to be my doctor.

Luckily for you good ole PCOM is there to hold your hand through medical school.

Yep. As needed anyway.

I dont think that any amount of assistance can make medical school easy. Who says that medical school has to be an abrasive experience anyway? Doesn't it sound like a better idea to have a warm, caring, and helpful environment for future health providers who are supposed to be warm, caring, and helpful themselves?

SNAP

 

[Animus]

Why would any medical school not care if their students passed the boards? Thats a stupid assumption to think that Carribean Medical Schools and RVU don't care whether their students pass. A high board failure rate would doom a school. Why do you think the big 3 Carribean schools make there students have to pass other exams before they can take the USMLE. The reason is they want to keep their board failure rate to a minimum so the school will be more attractive to applicants. I will admit that their probably aren't as many tutors, or oppurtunities for help at a Carribean medical school as there are at PCOM but personally if you have to have a lot of help to learn the basics of medicine I wouldn't want you to be my doctor.

Luckily for you good ole PCOM is there to hold your hand through medical school.

Really? Cause last time I checked most people that went down south didnt care about the board pass rate....they were going there because they had no other choice...

 

[MaximusD]

there are plenty of carib students that make great physicians, but on the whole it is generally understood that the carib schools care much less about whether you pass than the average US school. In USMD/USDO schools, it is generally understood that if you get in, you have a >95% chance of graduating and becoming a doc.

This is because domestic non-profit schools have a vested interest in the quality of the physicians they produce. The point I've been trying to make is that for-profit schools may possibly have other motivations... tuition money... they may still prioritize students high, but there is always the possibility that they will prioritize their bottom line higher...

That is not a good idea, IMO. Who benefits from a for-profit status? Is it the students... no. Is it the area in need of physicians? No... Sure you can make the case that the school is doing a service for the area, but why could they not do it in the format of a non-profit?

Who is going to benefit most? Oh yeah... it's the investors.

I have no problem with capitalism... it runs our country. But I do have a problem when it creates a conflict of interest and may possibly compromise medical education, not only in RVU, but provides the impetus for future for-profits throughout the nation.

 

[Vizsla]

they were going there because they had no other choice...

yes but the same has been said of DO programs. someone always has to feel superior i guess ...whether its MD vs DO or DO vs Caribbean

 

[group_theory]

A gentle reminder to everyone to get back on topic and not turn this into a MD vs DO debate

 

[JayneCobb]

A high board failure rate would doom a school.

How do you figure this? Is there a board pass rate and attrition rate for schools to maintain their accreditation? If so, what is the process offered to the school to remedy that? And when is the last time a school lost its accreditation?

 

[Animus]

yes but the same has been said of DO programs. someone always has to feel superior i guess ...whether its MD vs DO or DO vs Caribbean

Tis true...

Though not really relevant to the argument at hand...

 

[MaximusD]

yes but the same has been said of DO programs. someone always has to feel superior i guess ...whether its MD vs DO or DO vs Caribbean

You clearly didn't read our posts carefully. I have no doubt that students of carib schools are well-trained if they make it through... there are many that don't though and that's ridiculous.

The carib schools should do a better job of assuring their students are successful. To suggest otherwise is ridic. This relates to the topic at hand directly. RVU is affiliated with a carib school, is it not?

 

[toothless rufus]

Why didn't the federal government step in after the Flexner report and just mandate "no for-profit medical education" or something? Genuinely curious.

 

[Zerox]

RV is being run by a great D.O. RV is in
existence. It will be a great school. RV is a done deal. Any discussions
should look to the future. People should consider
who will build the next 20 schools and who will own and control them. Who
has the money to build 20 new schools and control them? Who has the money to spend 82 Billion dollars on building the largest airport in the world and the largest fleet (54) of EU double decker planes? Foreign investment
will dominate the future of D.O. development and subsequent control of the AOA.

 

[Zerox]

RV is being run by a great D.O. RV is in existence. It will be a great school. RV is a done deal.
Any discussions should look to the future. People should consider
who will build the next 20 schools and who will own and control them. Who
has the money to build 20 new schools and control them? Who has the money to spend 82 Billion dollars on building the largest airport in the world and the largest fleet (54) of EU double decker planes? Foreign investment
will dominate the future of D.O. development and subsequent control of the AOA unless the AOA takes a strong stand.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

RV is being run by a great D.O. RV is in
existence. It will be a great school. RV is a done deal. Any discussions
should look to the future. People should consider
who will build the next 20 schools and who will own and control them. Who
has the money to build 20 new schools and control them? Who has the money to spend 82 Billion dollars on building the largest airport in the world and the largest fleet (54) of EU double decker planes? Foreign investment
will dominate the future of D.O. development and subsequent control of the AOA.

 

[toothless rufus]

RV is being run by a great D.O. RV is in existence. It will be a great school. RV is a done deal.
Any discussions should look to the future. People should consider
who will build the next 20 schools and who will own and control them. Who
has the money to build 20 new schools and control them? Who has the money to spend 82 Billion dollars on building the largest airport in the world and the largest fleet (54) of EU double decker planes? Foreign investment
will dominate the future of D.O. development and subsequent control of the AOA unless the AOA takes a strong stand.

LOL! I really wonder...

 

[Lindyhopper]

The spreading of quality education is a good thing. It is something morally with wrong with the most advanced nation on earth draining the trained physicians of less developed nations.
The fact that an institution is for-profit or not-for-profit tells little about the quality of an institution. Indeed, the administrars of non-profits often draw large salaries.
The enforcement of standards should be at the level of accreditation. Particularly the quality of faculty & rotations.
Don't limit access to learning based on some unproven sense that for-profit schools will be inferior.

 

[chrisisinnocent]

Carribean Medical Schools have been putting out very capable physicians for years. Take a look and see how many pass the USMLE, graduate and enter US residency programs each year. The vast majority seem to do just as well as the average DO student and MD student trained in US medical schools. The major reason Carribean schools are behind the pecking order of US medical schools is mainly because of the old notion that US trained MDs are better than Carribean MDs even though in many cases they are equal or better. US trained MDs feel the same way about DOs even though we all know DO students are just as well trained as MD students.

As I said before the only people who aren't excited about RVU are a handful of SDNers who need to boost their egos by running down the school

Passing the USMLE and getting a residency in the US is setting your standards pretty low. The fact is there are more residency spots available in the US than US graduates so those spots have to go to somebody. The fact is that FMG's often rank higher than carribean graduates for a reason: they did not go to a US medical school because of geographic reasons whereas most US born carribean students ended up there because they could not get an US school to accept them due to a subpar undergraduate record.

Now to the original point of the post: medical education is supposed to be driven by the desire to provide well trained health professionals that will serve the public good NOT by a mercantile desire to line the pockets of some investors.

 

[Lindyhopper]

. . .medical education is supposed to be driven by the desire to provide well trained health professionals that will serve the public good NOT by a mercantile desire to line the pockets of some investors.

For profit hospitals deliver high quality care. Do you want to also make them illegal ,or do you prefer to judge them by the standard of care delivered? While you're at it, you may consider closing other non-medical for-profit institutions. How about the NY Times?
The point is profit motive is not inherently evil. What matters is the quality of the institution.

 

[chrisisinnocent]

For profit hospitals deliver high quality care. Do you want to also make them illegal ,or do you prefer to judge them by the standard of care delivered? While you're at it, you may consider closing other non-medical for-profit institutions. How about the NY Times?
The point is profit motive is not inherently evil. What matters is the quality of the institution.

Hospitals and newspapers are a different matter. I never used the word evil either. Don't distort what I said or try to reframe the debate.

 

[DO Anes]

Both for-profit and non-profit institutions require that they produce a high-quality product to be competitive in the marketplace, the difference lies in the utilization of excess revenue. Unfortunately, the demand for medical school spaces far exceeds supply and normal free market analogies do not apply. In the case of a non-profit medical school, all excess revenue is returned to the institution and used to improve facilities, expand programs and engage in research to increase the body of knowledge. Frequently these endeavors realize no short-term reward and are seen as fruitless in the for-profit world. Valuable medical discoveries are often built on years of seemingly inconsequential basic science work. Additionally, engaging in research greatly improves the quality of the faculty, as their knowledge is intensified in specific areas. Where will a for-profit medical school draw the line? It is simple economics; in order to make a profit and generate a return to its investor, RVUCOM will have to divert funds that could otherwise be used to engage in the aforementioned activities, while at the same time maximizing price (tuition) to competitive market levels. There is no evidence to suggest that for-profit schools will be of increased quality through increased efficiency and the need to produce a superior product. The Caribbean schools are the examples. Why should RVU be any different?
For-profit medical education is an anathema to the larger medical community. There is no credible for-profit medical school in the industrialized world. The for-profit medical schools exist in permissive, impoverished locales, like the Caribbean, in order to exploit the desires of people to become physicians and who are willing to pay a premium of tuition, quality and credibility in order to do so. Certainly many of the students at the Caribbean for-profit schools become high-quality respected and accepted physicians in the American medical community, but it is in spite of, rather than because of their schools. The graduates of the for-profit schools struggle to find acceptance into US residency training programs and frequently are left with less desirable and unwanted slots. I shudder to think how the graduates of the first for-profit US medical school since 1930, an osteopathic medical school that is owned by the investors of the American University of the Caribbean, will be viewed by the larger medical community.

 

[bravotwozero]

I'd say the for profit issue is the least of the AOA's problems. Internal politics, and general stupidity, like the policy of pulling people out of the allo match if the match into a DO residency is utterly *****ic.

 

[MacGyver]

More DOs = more competition with MDs for limited residency slots

Cmon now guys, who do you think is REALLY going to win that battle?

The AOA is a bunch of fools who are selling their own profession out with the idiotic idea that flooding the market with DOs will somehow increase their stature/position in the medical community.

Only idiots would posit such a stupid idea, because residency slots are fixed. If residency slots were unlimited and all med school grads could go into any field they wanted to, then it might be prudent to increase DO schools. But increasing DOs in a fixed residency pool means MORE competition between MDs and DOs and we all know who is going to come out on top of that.

 

[Vizsla]

More DOs = more competition with MDs for limited residency slots

Cmon now guys, who do you think is REALLY going to win that battle?

The AOA is a bunch of fools who are selling their own profession out with the idiotic idea that flooding the market with DOs will somehow increase their stature/position in the medical community.

Only idiots would posit such a stupid idea, because residency slots are fixed. If residency slots were unlimited and all med school grads could go into any field they wanted to, then it might be prudent to increase DO schools. But increasing DOs in a fixed residency pool means MORE competition between MDs and DOs and we all know who is going to come out on top of that.

you also have to add "more MDs" to that equation since allopathic schools are being asked to increase their number of matriculants. this is yet another variable that will make it harder to get the match of your choice

 

[st. pius v]

guys- i'm new to this post but i'm not new to my disgust with the onset of rvu; for those that are not familiar with the flexnor report, you should read that carefully thought-out research before accusing anyone here for "hating" the progression of DO schools at the onset of RVU as a "for-profit" only medical school.
the DO community has gained great strides over the years to achieve it's on par standing now with the MD community and i have nothing but to applaud, welcome, and appreciate the effort made. however, the onset of RVU is of concern:
Because it is a for-profit only institution, how will they gauge the quality-to-profit ratio? the fact that there exist a quality-to-profit ratio is detrimental in itself since somewhere, the level of quality will be compromised for the benefit of making some rich person richer. in a nutshell that is why rvu is bad news for the DO community and for healthcare in general. the society deserves the best trained doctors and we who will one day be physicians, owe ourselves the honor of being able to serve to the best of our ability. would you want to see your representing body (AOA) consent to producing your fellow practitioners for profiteering purposes?
somewhere along the line, some people in the AOA is getting rich. the AMA nor the LCME will never condone to a shameful act of betraying the quality of medicine for money. the AOA has just slapped the entire DO community in face.
to mr. sop: read the flexnor report first and then talk to me!

 

[Old_Mil]

The AOA is behaving exactly how an organization focused solely on increasing membership numbers and dues revenue should behave. If you belong and pay dues, you do so to your own detriment.