How many DO's are taking USMLE as well?

[NDsUltimateJugg]

I'm fairly sure I'll be taking both tests but I'm just trying to figure out how many people actually do. I'm planning on a quick chat with a dean tomorrow to get his thoughts, but unless I'm 100% sure that I'll be doing a D.O. residency, is there any real reason for me not to take USMLE as well?

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[DragonWell]

Just to get a rough, back of the envelope idea of the statistical part of your question: First, to try to get an idea of the total # of second year DO students in 2006, we can use info from here : There were 3,908 1st year students in 2005 and assuming an attrition rate of ~4%, 3908 x .04 = 156, 3908 - 156 = ~ 3752 2nd year DO students in 2006

If there were ~3752 2nd year DO students in 2006 and 1,258 DO students sat for the USMLE for the first time that year (based on info from here), this gives us:

1258 USMLE takers/3752 2nd Yr DO students = ~.34 or about 1/3 of DO students taking the USMLE.

Anybody have any thoughts on these numbers as a ballpark figure?

In regards to your other question, personally, I am still pretty open about specialties, and I also would like more geographical options, so USMLE seems worth it to me.

 

[predodoc]

I'm fairly sure I'll be taking both tests but I'm just trying to figure out how many people actually do. I'm planning on a quick chat with a dean tomorrow to get his thoughts, but unless I'm 100% sure that I'll be doing a D.O. residency, is there any real reason for me not to take USMLE as well?

Ive posted my method for this decision below in other threads and I think it works, so read below. Also, some Deans and Professors will tell you that you dont need the usmle and to not take it because "other students have been accepted in that field w/o usmle". Most of the time they want you to take only comlex so that it will become "more accepted" or to encourage you to do a DO residency. The reality is that if you do well on usmle it will make you more competitive at any allopathic program. But if you do very poor or fail then It will probably hurt you more than if you just took comlex. So follow what I wrote below.

I would like to share what I think THE Method all DOs out there should use to make this decision.

I would say this fits 95%+ of DO's.


ALL DO's SHOULD take the USMLE UNLESS you fall into 1 of 3 three categories

1. You KNOW 100% that you want to do a primary care specialty.
or
2. You KNOW 100% that you want to do an Osteopathic residency (no matter what specialty you want to do)
or
3. You are in danger of failing/doing poor on USMLE(read below)

Most people don't know how they will do on USMLE before taking it, so if you fall under #3 then do the following:
1. Plan on taking both test and sign up for BOTH of them
2. About 1-2 months before the USMLE take either the NBME 2 or 3 practice test on the NBME website($45 each).
3. Decide if you think it is worth it to take the USMLE from your NBME score. You should probably make your cut off at 1 month be about 185-200 to be safe with a worth while score. If you make below that, its your call. Some people can bring their score up 30+points in a month, but some can only bring it up a little.
Bottom line is with a USMLE score below a 200 you probably wasted your time/money. Personally I would only consider it really worth it if you score 215+.
So you signed up for both and didnt make the "cut off" at 1 month, then call and cancel. I think you only loose about $50 by canceling within a certain amount of time.
So worst case scenario- you sign up for both, then do terrible on the NBME practice test, so you cancel and loose about $50 for canceling and $45 for the NBME test.
Best case scenario- YOU TOTALLY SURPRISE YOURSELF WITH HOW WELL YOU DID ON THE USMLE AND LAND AN AWESOME RESIDENCY.

 

[Taus]

Ive posted my method for this decision below in other threads and I think it works, so read below. Also, some Deans and Professors will tell you that you dont need the usmle and to not take it because "other students have be accepted in that field w/o usmle". Most of the time they want you to take only comlex so that it will become "more accepted" or to encourage you to do a DO residency. The reality is that if you do well on usmle it will make you more competitive at any allopathic program. But if you do very poor or fail then It will probably hurt you more than if you just took comlex. So follow what I wrote below.

I would like to share what I think THE Method all DOs out there should use to make this decision.

I would say this fits 95%+ of DO's.


ALL DO's SHOULD take the USMLE UNLESS you fall into 1 of 3 three categories

1. You KNOW 100% that you want to do a primary care specialty.
or
2. You KNOW 100% that you want to do an Osteopathic residency (no matter what specialty you want to do)
or
3. You are in danger of failing/doing poor on USMLE(read below)

Most people don’t know how they will do on USMLE before taking it, so if you fall under #3 then do the following:
1. Plan on taking both test and sign up for BOTH of them
2. About 1-2 months before the USMLE take either the NBME 2 or 3 practice test on the NBME website($45 each).
3. Decide if you think it is worth it to take the USMLE from your NBME score. You should probably make your cut off at 1 month be about 185-200 to be safe with a worth while score. If you make below that, its your call. Some people can bring their score up 30+points in a month, but some can only bring it up a little.
Bottom line is with a USMLE score below a 200 you probably wasted your time/money. Personally I would only consider it really worth it if you score 215+.
So you signed up for both and didnt make the “cut off” at 1 month, then call and cancel. I think you only loose about $50 by canceling within a certain amount of time.
So worst case scenario- you sign up for both, then do terrible on the NBME practice test, so you cancel and loose about $50 for canceling and $45 for the NBME test.
Best case scenario- YOU TOTALLY SURPRISE YOURSELF WITH HOW WELL YOU DID ON THE USMLE AND LAND AN AWESOME RESIDENCY.

That is EXCELLENT advice.

 

[nvshelat]

That is EXCELLENT advice.

Which to take first? I was thinking USMLE since it supposedly has more cell bio/biochem, that way I could get it out of the way and spend a week or so learning/relearning OMM for the COMLEX?

 

[osli]

The most common recommendation is to take USMLE first. Spend a few days on OMT and then take COMLEX.

I have friends who are planning on taking COMLEX first to "get one under their belt" and have another week or so to study for USMLE. Not me. I've arranged my schedule and study plan to be done and ready to peak for the USMLE. If I forget a few things before the COMLEX, oh well... I'd rather it be that than the other way around.

 

[megswinter82]

Predodoc,

Thanks for the advice. I definitely fall under number 3. I've already signed up and am having serious reservations. Can I get my $$$ back in full once I've already paid and registered?

Thanks!

 

[HPsiEPsi]

No, you can only extend the testing date, I think by 2 months (perhaps 3) according to their policy. I tried getting a refund, since I had serious reservations about taking the test at the time (I wasn't ready), but the representative I spoke to wasn't convinced that I had a legitimate reason. Good luck.

 

[predodoc]

No, you can only extend the testing date, I think by 2 months (perhaps 3) according to their policy. I tried getting a refund, since I had serious reservations about taking the test at the time (I wasn't ready), but the representative I spoke to wasn't convinced that I had a legitimate reason. Good luck.

I thought that you could cancel. My roomate last year had signed up for the test and decided that he didnt want to take it probably about 2 months before the test. He called and they canceled it. I remember he said he did not get all the money back but did not loose much. I thought he said 20%, which I guess would be closer to $100. I didnt know they could deny your refund. This might be a new policy to prevent DO's from doing what I did.

Anyone have some info about not giving refunds for usmle??

 

[Jonathan13180]

I'm fairly sure I'll be taking both tests but I'm just trying to figure out how many people actually do. I'm planning on a quick chat with a dean tomorrow to get his thoughts, but unless I'm 100% sure that I'll be doing a D.O. residency, is there any real reason for me not to take USMLE as well?

Im doing both (as of now). Ive had similar thoughts, but i think everything everyone has said was perfect. People question DO students about taking the USMLE as a means to "prove" themselves, but i feel it opens doors and allows a wider range of options.

 

[HPsiEPsi]

I thought that you could cancel. My roomate last year had signed up for the test and decided that he didnt want to take it probably about 2 months before the test. He called and they canceled it. I remember he said he did not get all the money back but did not loose much. I thought he said 20%, which I guess would be closer to $100. I didnt know they could deny your refund. This might be a new policy to prevent DO's from doing what I did.

Anyone have some info about not giving refunds for usmle??

Ok, I apologize for the incorrect information. It's been a while. I think I remember now - you can extend the testing deadline once by 2 months, but once within 30 days of the exam, you cannot cancel without penalty. Hopefully someone else can clarify their policy.

 

[megswinter82]

A friend of mine called the nbme. We can cancel and get our $$$ back....sort of. We have to get a letter from our school on official letterhead stating that we don't need the USMLE to graduate. Then we have to send it in and they "review" the letter and decide if it is a good enough reason to refund the $$$ (less the processing few).

As an aside I've emailed about 10-12 allopathic neurology programs and the responses varied from..."we ALL prefer USMLE to We LOVE DO's and LOVE the COMLEX and everything in between.

 

[Taus]

A friend of mine called the nbme. We can cancel and get our $$$ back....sort of. We have to get a letter from our school on official letterhead stating that we don't need the USMLE to graduate. Then we have to send it in and they "review" the letter and decide if it is a good enough reason to refund the $$$ (less the processing few).

As an aside I've emailed about 10-12 allopathic neurology programs and the responses varied from..."we ALL prefer USMLE to We LOVE DO's and LOVE the COMLEX and everything in between.

A classmate of mine did the exact same thing and got most of his money back about 2 weeks before the exam (way past the normal refund date). I'm not 100% sure what the letter said, but it had something to the effect of it not being a required exam for him.

However, I wouldn't go into this thinking you're gonna back out at the end.....that'll kill your motivation to study as hard as you need to. Only back out if you take NBME 2 or 3 a few weeks out from your test date and get below 210 or so.

 

[Osteopathology]

I took COMLEX first. Plan to take the USMLE in february.

I would honestly, recommend taking COMLEX first ... going on rotations. Study and remember basic sciences as you see fit along the way. Learn about the diseases and the clinical care first hand and then take USMLE.

I know some will disagree with me, but right now I feel like I have learned a great deal on rotations to do better on the USMLE. It shows in the questions I review and the overall thought process. A few, if not a good deal, of the questions have a clinical flavor which seems more well suited to someone in touch with basic science and a flavor for the clinical wards.

 

[hplover]

Thanks a lot u guys, the info u posted really helps. i got accepted at DO school and am waiting to hear from MD's. i don't think i'll get it. so, i'm trying to find out whether DO is the best option for me.
i want to take USMLE when i'm in 2nd year. i just wanted to know whether the residency hospitals give higher preference for MD over DO. i mean if MD and DO get the same score on USMLEs, they will give first preference to MD right? please tell me any thoughts u might have on this issue
thanks

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

Thanks a lot u guys, the info u posted really helps. i got accepted at DO school and am waiting to hear from MD's. i don't think i'll get it. so, i'm trying to find out whether DO is the best option for me.
i want to take USMLE when i'm in 2nd year. i just wanted to know whether the residency hospitals give higher preference for MD over DO. i mean if MD and DO get the same score on USMLEs, they will give first preference to MD right? please tell me any thoughts u might have on this issue
thanks

Welcome to SDN. If you use the search function you will find TONS of info about your questions. Use it my friend. Shamelessly.

But the short answer to your question is "it depends." It depends on:

1) the region of the country (any state with a DO school will likely be very receptive to DOs)

2) the specialty (generally speaking the more competitive the specialty the less receptive they are to DO's. BUT that does NOT mean if a DO brings their A+ game that they can't match. If you want something bad enough NO ONE can stop you!)

3) Take the USMLE Step 1 (maybe Step 2) if, and only if, you can beat the national average (~218). There are practice tests written by the people who write the USMLE (aka NBME) that are very good predictors of what your score would be if you actually took the USMLE. Kinda like the AAMC practice tests that people take before the MCATs. When the time comes, MAKE SURE YOU TAKE THE NBME's practice test.

Let excellence be your motto and you will rarely be disappointed.

Hope that helps. Congrats on the med school acceptance!

 

[theresa83]

I have heard something about allopathic residencies not requiring DO students to take both step 1 and 2. That either step 1 was required, but not step 2, or the other way around. I was wondering if anyone else has heard of this?

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

I have heard something about allopathic residencies not requiring DO students to take both step 1 and 2. That either step 1 was required, but not step 2, or the other way around. I was wondering if anyone else has heard of this?

Yes that's true. If you're applying to a competitive specialty and/or in a competitive location (Cali, NYC, etc) then it behooves you to take the USMLE Step 1. If and only if you can beat the national average (~218)!

Step 2 is not really required, esp if you did well on Step 1. Having said that I took it. In retrospect I probably could have skipped it as it really didn't add anything to my application. Hindsight is always 20/20!

 

[osli]

If you're trying to get your allopathic residency AOA approved (if it isn't already) so that you have AOA approved GME training (in case you want to run for AOA office... can't think of many other good reasons right now), then you'll have to take the comlex step II as well. If you want only allopathic you can just do USMLE step II.

I don't know about having to take the USMLE step II for allopathic residencies... do they (all?) require it, or will they accept the comlex (and only the comlex) before starting residency? Do you have to take USMLE step II, or comlex?

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

If you're trying to get your allopathic residency AOA approved (if it isn't already) so that you have AOA approved GME training (in case you want to run for AOA office... can't think of many other good reasons right now), then you'll have to take the comlex step II as well. If you want only allopathic you can just do USMLE step II.
I don't know about having to take the USMLE step II for allopathic residencies... do they (all?) require it, or will they accept the comlex (and only the comlex) before starting residency? Do you have to take USMLE step II, or comlex?

Your first statement may be not be entirely true. Most, if not all, DO schools now require passing COMLEX II (both written exam and PE) before graduating. Hence even if a DO wanted to complete the USMLE Steps 1-3 for licensure (very few DO's take this route. Not sure why), you would still need to take AT MINIMUM COMLEX I and II in order to graduate.

In that case you would also take USMLE Step 1 and 2 while in med school and then finish off with USMLE Step 3 at some point during PGY-1 year as a DO. From what I've read, if you're a DO it's much better to take all 3 Steps of the COMLEX for licensure as some states apparently "require" DO's to have completed the COMLEX. So you may end up SOL if you finish only with the USMLE and you have to move to one of those states!

Once again, if you did well on USMLE Step 1, you will mostly likely NOT need to take USMLE Step 2. Just take COMLEX II.

 

[prionsRbad]

Forgive me if this is a stupid question.

If a DO chooses to take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX, would you just have to take step I of the USMLE or all three?

Thanks

 

[predodoc]

D.O.s only take the usmle to be more competitive for residency. A DO can take the all 3 Usmles to become licensed but its really pointless because All DO's(as far as I know) have to already pass the first 2 COMLEX test to graduate. Meaning they only have to pay for 3 test (COMLEX 1-3) to be licensed. So paying for all 3 Usmle's are usually pointless. The only exception I have found is for DO's wanting a certain fellowship(after residency) and taking usmle 3 might make them more competitive.

 

[prionsRbad]

Thanks.

Just to clarify: If you are just taking the USMLE to be a more competitive applicant, you only need to take step I, right?

D.O.s only take the usmle to be more competitive for residency. A DO can take the all 3 Usmles to become licensed but its really pointless because All DO's(as far as I know) have to already pass the first 2 COMLEX test to graduate. Meaning they only have to pay for 3 test (COMLEX 1-3) to be licensed. So paying for all 3 Usmle's are usually pointless. The only exception I have found is for DO's wanting a certain fellowship(after residency) and taking usmle 3 might make them more competitive.

 

[osli]

Your first statement may be not be entirely true...

Ah, yeah, good catch. I should have known better - our school requires both comlex I and II. I was probably thinking of the part III, which is sometimes optional.

Do you know if allopathic programs require parts II and III of USMLE? I wouldn't think so since many accept comlex as entering criteria, but I have been known to be wrong on occasion.

 

[hplover]

Welcome to SDN. If you use the search function you will find TONS of info about your questions. Use it my friend. Shamelessly.

But the short answer to your question is "it depends." It depends on:

1) the region of the country (any state with a DO school will likely be very receptive to DOs)

2) the specialty (generally speaking the more competitive the specialty the less receptive they are to DO's. BUT that does NOT mean if a DO brings their A+ game that they can't match. If you want something bad enough NO ONE can stop you!)

3) Take the USMLE Step 1 (maybe Step 2) if, and only if, you can beat the national average (~218). There are practice tests written by the people who write the USMLE (aka NBME) that are very good predictors of what your score would be if you actually took the USMLE. Kinda like the AAMC practice tests that people take before the MCATs. When the time comes, MAKE SURE YOU TAKE THE NBME's practice test.

Let excellence be your motto and you will rarely be disappointed.

Hope that helps. Congrats on the med school acceptance!

thanks for the reply. so if i work my butt off in DO school. it's not a bad option right? i mean since MD and DO are the same thing? that makes me feel better. thinking that i haven't lost opportunity of becoming a physician. Yet.

 

[predodoc]

Thanks.

Just to clarify: If you are just taking the USMLE to be a more competitive applicant, you only need to take step I, right?

It depends. Thats what Ive been told anyway. Lots of programs will take a DO with just comlex but having a good usmle puts them on the same scale as the others. But Ive been told that there are programs that want/require both usmle 1 and 2. But I think that is rare and they probably already have bias against D.Os. So it might not help that much to take both usmle 1 and 2 anyway.

 

[Believe2008]

Hey! Is it true there are only about 6 D.O. neurology residencies? The stats on M.D. residencies reflect "not very competitive". Just out of curiosity which were the schools that love D.O.'s for neuro? If you have any information I would greatly appreciate it


Sorry this thread was for megswinter82 but the thread didn't do what I wanted! Opps!