How Many Of You Guys Are Wealthy or Living Paycheck To Paycheck?

[ldiot]

What I'm still wondering is why people are aggressively fighting over residencies just so they can make less money in a hospital... like seriously I meet pharmacists who did 2 years of residency making peanuts just so they can have the chance to get hired and still make less than retail. Is it just a prestige thing that they want to work in a hospital?

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[TheBlaah]

What I'm still wondering is why people are aggressively fighting over residencies just so they can make less money in a hospital... like seriously I meet pharmacists who did 2 years of residency making peanuts just so they can have the chance to get hired and still make less than retail. Is it just a prestige thing that they want to work in a hospital?

Most people are attracted by the improved quality of life. In terms of financial incentives, there's the PSLF for school loans (10% for 10 years, rest is forgiven tax-free) if they work for a non-profit. Depending on their loan amount, that alone may make residency worth pursuing.

But that's just my guess; I'm not a fan of residencies myself.

 

[ldiot]

Most people are attracted by the improved quality of life. In terms of financial incentives, there's the PSLF for school loans (10% for 10 years, rest is forgiven tax-free) if they work for a non-profit. Depending on their loan amount, that alone may make residency worth pursuing.

But that's just my guess; I'm not a fan of residencies myself.

I'm guessing it's probably a combination of QoL and the greater prestige... vs saying you work at Walmart. For me the only incentive of residency is that fact that I have only one chance at it. If I turn to retail there's no turning back... where a hospital pharmacist could always switch over. I have no interest in hospital but at the same time pretty much permanently locking myself out of that option is what I find "scary" I guess.

 

[lord999]

I like that. You are right. A pharmacist's salary is really a tool to build wealth whether it is investments or rental properties, etc. That's how I look at it, at least.

I agree as well, but when is enough is enough? This is the refrain with my wife's company friends who have eight digits without debt right now, yet they are still working themselves to a 62-68 life expectancy under grueling work circumstances (another equity partner just dropped dead from sudden cardiac death last week at the grand old age of 63, leaving his 39 yo trophy and three children to have quite the probate fight considering that even with his will, there's enough to do a contingency lawsuit to gain more). The first million is the hardest, they say, but what you'll find out is that it's quite addictive to make money on that scale. Most of the most miserly people I know are in their 40s in the $5-20 million range (self-earned from work and investment).

If I had to live life all over again knowing what I know now and knowing the position I hold in pharmacy (which is probably in the top 5% or 1% depending on who you ask):
1. I'd ditch a lot of high school
2. I'd have a lot more fun in pharmacy school and go with C and D's equal a PharmD attitude.
3. I'd sleep around a lot more in my late 20s as it sure gets harder in your 30s and probably 40s, particularly if you are married like I am, my wife would demonstrate her (lack of) surgery skill if I tried that now, and of course, I'm henpecked.
4. I'd make enough money to relieve my anxiety (this I did do in my 20s), build myself a decent future, and enjoy the present.

As in yes, our salaries are tools to build something better, but there is also the beauty of never having to worry about money as well. Eat good food that isn't McMade, live in a decent neighborhood (at least safer than mine was when I was in school), save some for that brighter future that you definitely deserve, and use some to enjoy the present living for that better future. If you continually defer gratification too long, you'll find that the cost of some pleasures that you can only really experience earlier become prohibitive.

I've seen too many pharmacists go Boglehead too early and too intensively to understand that certain things just can't be bought in your 50s until it is too late. I realize that most of you are in debt right now and don't see that light, but trust me, you'll get there. That's when you start thinking about the existential issues like why the hell am I working here, why am I not Tindering myself, what happened to my health, how large is my personal liability now that I have these assets. Assets own you as much as you own them. If you do end up with $1M in cash as a true possession, one of the thoughts that goes through your head (and it did through mine) was how exposed was my liability at work? You'll find that you'll start making decisions to defend those assets, and then you realize that working standard line pharmacy is too big a liability for you to stay in, and then what?

 

[gwarm01]

I'm guessing it's probably a combination of QoL and the greater prestige... vs saying you work at Walmart. For me the only incentive of residency is that fact that I have only one chance at it. If I turn to retail there's no turning back... where a hospital pharmacist could always switch over. I have no interest in hospital but at the same time pretty much permanently locking myself out of that option is what I find "scary" I guess.

Precisely why I went the hospital route. I had zero interest in retail and probably would have gone back to school if that was the only job I could find. I hated that work environment and the extra money just wouldn't be worth it.

My original plan was to work in nuclear pharmacy. I did a summer internship with cardinal health, took all of the didactic courses. Then I graduated after a large Mo-99 shortage and couldn't find a job to save my life. I was lucky to have worked as a technician and intern at a children's hospital all throughout school and got a job in peds as a new graduate with no residency.

The way I see it, you never hear about hospital pharmacists trying to break into retail to escape the terrible work conditions. I probably make 10-15k less per year than my retail brethren, but my job isn't very stressful and I can go to the bathroom or enjoy a coffee whenever I'd like. I'd like to think I become more valuable and harder to replace with each passing year, but deep down I'm afraid it won't matter in a decade or so.

 

[Momus]

I agree as well, but when is enough is enough? This is the refrain with my wife's company friends who have eight digits without debt right now, yet they are still working themselves to a 62-68 life expectancy under grueling work circumstances (another equity partner just dropped dead from sudden cardiac death last week at the grand old age of 63, leaving his 39 yo trophy and three children to have quite the probate fight considering that even with his will, there's enough to do a contingency lawsuit to gain more). The first million is the hardest, they say, but what you'll find out is that it's quite addictive to make money on that scale. Most of the most miserly people I know are in their 40s in the $5-20 million range (self-earned from work and investment).

If I had to live life all over again knowing what I know now and knowing the position I hold in pharmacy (which is probably in the top 5% or 1% depending on who you ask):
1. I'd ditch a lot of high school
2. I'd have a lot more fun in pharmacy school and go with C and D's equal a PharmD attitude.
3. I'd sleep around a lot more in my late 20s as it sure gets harder in your 30s and probably 40s, particularly if you are married like I am, my wife would demonstrate her (lack of) surgery skill if I tried that now, and of course, I'm henpecked.
4. I'd make enough money to relieve my anxiety (this I did do in my 20s), build myself a decent future, and enjoy the present.

As in yes, our salaries are tools to build something better, but there is also the beauty of never having to worry about money as well. Eat good food that isn't McMade, live in a decent neighborhood (at least safer than mine was when I was in school), save some for that brighter future that you definitely deserve, and use some to enjoy the present living for that better future. If you continually defer gratification too long, you'll find that the cost of some pleasures that you can only really experience earlier become prohibitive.

I've seen too many pharmacists go Boglehead too early and too intensively to understand that certain things just can't be bought in your 50s until it is too late. I realize that most of you are in debt right now and don't see that light, but trust me, you'll get there. That's when you start thinking about the existential issues like why the hell am I working here, why am I not Tindering myself, what happened to my health, how large is my personal liability now that I have these assets. Assets own you as much as you own them. If you do end up with $1M in cash as a true possession, one of the thoughts that goes through your head (and it did through mine) was how exposed was my liability at work? You'll find that you'll start making decisions to defend those assets, and then you realize that working standard line pharmacy is too big a liability for you to stay in, and then what?

NOT sure what you are talking about, but I can still pull 5/mo ONS with some effort when I am bored off tinder, okcupid, plentyofsluts (fish*) and I am 32. I eat whatever I want and my networth is 10x my base gross income. Not much by any standard but it gives me a peace of mind since my expenses are low. Fu3k big house/fancy car/dumb ass fixed costs. I go to the gym 4-5x/week. I love the Boglehead way of living. It's a nice way take care of my future self. Index the hell out of your investment. Only spend money on things you value most and bank the rest. Reap the return of stocks market without doing Jack sh1t. Don't be a fool keeping up with the Joneses to look like a tool, you are going to be OK.

What liability? $130 gives you 1M coverage, you can buy more if you want. Increase your car liability insurance to 500k-1M if you are paranoid, and buy an umbrella insurance. They are cheap as hell. You are afraid of working as pharmacist lol? Only when we are no longer afraid do we begin to live. Protect, take care of your future self, and live in the present. Things will turn out just fine if you do that.

 

[TheBlaah]

NOT sure what you are talking about, but I can still pull 5/mo ONS with some effort when I am bored off tinder, okcupid, plentyofsluts (fish*) and I am 32. I eat whatever I want and my networth is 10x my base gross income. Not much by any standard but it gives me a peace of mind since my expenses are low. Fu3k big house/fancy car/dumb ass fixed costs. I go to the gym 4-5x/week. I love the Boglehead way of living. It's a nice way take care of my future self. Index the hell out of your investment. Only spend money on things you value most and bank the rest. Reap the return of stocks market without doing Jack sh1t. Don't be a fool keeping up with the Joneses to look like a tool, you are going to be OK.

What liability? $130 gives you 1M coverage, you can buy more if you want. Increase your car liability insurance to 500k-1M if you are paranoid, and buy an umbrella insurance. They are cheap as hell. You are afraid of working as pharmacist lol? Only when we are no longer afraid do we begin to live. Protect, take care of your future self, and live in the present. Things will turn out just fine if you do that.

Just out of curiosity, at what point would you think, "Okay, I've saved enough money for my retirement. Maybe I'll start splurging." At a certain point, I imagine you're just saving/investing money just for the sake of it. Unless you plan on retiring early or living forever, and I don't think you're planning on doing either, what exactly could you possibly spend so much money on in your twilight years, other than large purchase items such as big houses/fancy cars?

I guess the point of this post is: for what purpose exactly are you amassing your money?

 

[6GodPharm]

What I'm still wondering is why people are aggressively fighting over residencies just so they can make less money in a hospital... like seriously I meet pharmacists who did 2 years of residency making peanuts just so they can have the chance to get hired and still make less than retail. Is it just a prestige thing that they want to work in a hospital?

I agree. Most hospitals (other than Kaiser) pay in the $50's/hr while in retail you can make in the $70's/hr plus a ton of OT available especially if they have no one to open the stores and need coverage. I don't see the point in wasting 2 years making 50k of so in a residency to them make $50/hr.

 

[Momus]

Just out of curiosity, at what point would you think, "Okay, I've saved enough money for my retirement. Maybe I'll start splurging." At a certain point, I imagine you're just saving/investing money just for the sake of it. Unless you plan on retiring early or living forever, what exactly could you possibly spend so much money on in your twilight years, other than large purchase items such as big houses/fancy cars?

Everyone has a number. Mine is 3M to walk. You can stop when you reach financial independence. Anyone saving at least 20%/yr of their gross income will be well off in their golden yrs. That means if you make 130k, you have to save at least 26k (this includes after tax saving + 401k + match). Those numbers are NOT much at all but daunting for an average American. If you want to reach early financial independence, aim for 50% saving rate.

Quitting the doomed profession will be my future goal. When you are happy with what you have, you don't need much. But why do you think anyone need big house and fancy cars?

 

[ldiot]

NOT sure what you are talking about, but I can still pull 5/mo ONS with some effort when I am bored off tinder, okcupid, plentyofsluts (fish*) and I am 32. I eat whatever I want and my networth is 10x my base gross income. Not much by any standard but it gives me a peace of mind since my expenses are low. Fu3k big house/fancy car/dumb ass fixed costs. I go to the gym 4-5x/week. I love the Boglehead way of living. It's a nice way take care of my future self. Index the hell out of your investment. Only spend money on things you value most and bank the rest. Reap the return of stocks market without doing Jack sh1t. Don't be a fool keeping up with the Joneses to look like a tool, you are going to be OK.

What liability? $130 gives you 1M coverage, you can buy more if you want. Increase your car liability insurance to 500k-1M if you are paranoid, and buy an umbrella insurance. They are cheap as hell. You are afraid of working as pharmacist lol? Only when we are no longer afraid do we begin to live. Protect, take care of your future self, and live in the present. Things will turn out just fine if you do that.

I signed up on OKC just to see and it seemed like all the males were creepy/****boys and all the females were single with 3 kids or whales. Maybe Tinder is better. I did find someone in my class on there which was awkward and people from my high school lol

 

[TheBlaah]

Quitting the doomed profession will be my future goal. When you are happy with what you have, you don't need much. But why do you think anyone need big house and fancy cars?

Nobody needs a big house and fancy cars. Nobody needs to have kids or make a lot of money. In fact, nobody needs to have good food or even have sex. As far as I'm concerned, nobody needs anything; it's just a convenience/luxury to have. I suppose I have a somewhat nihilistic perspective in that regard.

I will say that I'll probably be buying a decent house/nice car in the near future. I can also honestly say that I could care less what anybody thinks of them either (I probably won't be showing/informing any of my friends/family other than my spouse about them anytime soon). I'll be buying them because I consider them a convenience, though in my case the house will probably double as an investment particularly in the area I'm looking at.

 

[MoXiEguRl]

Gotcha. They will refi the whole loan though, or at least they did when I refi'ed. Good Luck with PLSF!

Im thinking about refinancing. Did you go through your local bank? I have been with a credit union for years... They seem to be a bit harder to get loans with though.. I appreciate any advice. I am able to throw 5k a month at the loans over the next year or so.. I am living a very frugal college student life still...

I am currently sitting at 150k

 

[Apotheker2015]

What I'm still wondering is why people are aggressively fighting over residencies just so they can make less money in a hospital... like seriously I meet pharmacists who did 2 years of residency making peanuts just so they can have the chance to get hired and still make less than retail. Is it just a prestige thing that they want to work in a hospital?

It comes down to opportunity cost and what you value. There is no right answer. I believe I would have enjoyed hospital work and utilizing my clinical skills more. However, there is no way I could ever go through 2 years of residency and be at my preceptor's mercy. I hated that part of 4th year. There were people who I wish would just communicated with me through post-it notes. "Please, please, do not talk to me".
I would have enjoyed hospital work but dealing with the inflated egos of so many PharmD - MD-Wanna Be's is something I could not have done. Retail is way more doable for me. It's just a means to an end. I derive satisfaction from doing it well even when it sucks. It allows me to do the things that are important to me and none of them is related to pharmacy.

 

[Apotheker2015]

I agree as well, but when is enough is enough? This is the refrain with my wife's company friends who have eight digits without debt right now, yet they are still working themselves to a 62-68 life expectancy under grueling work circumstances (another equity partner just dropped dead from sudden cardiac death last week at the grand old age of 63, leaving his 39 yo trophy and three children to have quite the probate fight considering that even with his will, there's enough to do a contingency lawsuit to gain more). The first million is the hardest, they say, but what you'll find out is that it's quite addictive to make money on that scale. Most of the most miserly people I know are in their 40s in the $5-20 million range (self-earned from work and investment).

If I had to live life all over again knowing what I know now and knowing the position I hold in pharmacy (which is probably in the top 5% or 1% depending on who you ask):
1. I'd ditch a lot of high school
2. I'd have a lot more fun in pharmacy school and go with C and D's equal a PharmD attitude.
3. I'd sleep around a lot more in my late 20s as it sure gets harder in your 30s and probably 40s, particularly if you are married like I am, my wife would demonstrate her (lack of) surgery skill if I tried that now, and of course, I'm henpecked.
4. I'd make enough money to relieve my anxiety (this I did do in my 20s), build myself a decent future, and enjoy the present.

As in yes, our salaries are tools to build something better, but there is also the beauty of never having to worry about money as well. Eat good food that isn't McMade, live in a decent neighborhood (at least safer than mine was when I was in school), save some for that brighter future that you definitely deserve, and use some to enjoy the present living for that better future. If you continually defer gratification too long, you'll find that the cost of some pleasures that you can only really experience earlier become prohibitive.

I've seen too many pharmacists go Boglehead too early and too intensively to understand that certain things just can't be bought in your 50s until it is too late. I realize that most of you are in debt right now and don't see that light, but trust me, you'll get there. That's when you start thinking about the existential issues like why the hell am I working here, why am I not Tindering myself, what happened to my health, how large is my personal liability now that I have these assets. Assets own you as much as you own them. If you do end up with $1M in cash as a true possession, one of the thoughts that goes through your head (and it did through mine) was how exposed was my liability at work? You'll find that you'll start making decisions to defend those assets, and then you realize that working standard line pharmacy is too big a liability for you to stay in, and then what?

I'm with you on all of that actually. I am not aiming for 20 million dollars or anything like that. I was mostly referring to eventually purchasing 3 rental properties that would generate in a year 1.5 times or twice the salary of a pharmacist. And of course, being debt free. I am an older student and I decided I would not postpone having a new car anymore. So yes, I am with you on all of that.

 

[DesiRX]

Before taxes but it was in a no income tax state.

With shift differential and a few overtime days I averaged 105k, but I felt that was way low considering the cost of living in the area.

what year was this in?

 

[gwarm01]

what year was this in?

2013-15

 

[HouTX]

I'm with you on all of that actually. I am not aiming for 20 million dollars or anything like that. I was mostly referring to eventually purchasing 3 rental properties that would generate in a year 1.5 times or twice the salary of a pharmacist. And of course, being debt free. I am an older student and I decided I would not postpone having a new car anymore. So yes, I am with you on all of that.

3 rental properties that generate 1.5 to 2x pharmacist's salary? i would like to hear what kind of properties to achieve this.

 

[PumpkinSmasher]

3 rental properties that generate 1.5 to 2x pharmacist's salary? i would like to hear what kind of properties to achieve this.

3 houses won't generate that cash flow but 3 aprtment building can do it. My grandma owns about 50 apt units across a few small complexes as rentals. Average rent between the 1 and 2 bedrooms is 900/month. So grossing around 540k/yr. She has had these for over 30 years for most part. So notes are well paid down with some refi. But regular maintenance is always there as a cost.

But anyway, it takes a lot of capital to get into one of these complexes and have to wait to find a good deal. I don't know many pharmacists with the capital to get into a apt complex selling for a couple million but I guess if you just keep saving, can get the down payment together or start with smaller size properties

 

[Apotheker2015]

3 houses won't generate that cash flow but 3 aprtment building can do it. My grandma owns about 50 apt units across a few small complexes as rentals. Average rent between the 1 and 2 bedrooms is 900/month. So grossing around 540k/yr. She has had these for over 30 years for most part. So notes are well paid down with some refi. But regular maintenance is always there as a cost.

But anyway, it takes a lot of capital to get into one of these complexes and have to wait to find a good deal. I don't know many pharmacists with the capital to get into a apt complex selling for a couple million but I guess if you just keep saving, can get the down payment together or start with smaller size properties

 

[Apotheker2015]

3 houses won't generate that cash flow but 3 aprtment building can do it. My grandma owns about 50 apt units across a few small complexes as rentals. Average rent between the 1 and 2 bedrooms is 900/month. So grossing around 540k/yr. She has had these for over 30 years for most part. So notes are well paid down with some refi. But regular maintenance is always there as a cost.

But anyway, it takes a lot of capital to get into one of these complexes and have to wait to find a good deal. I don't know many pharmacists with the capital to get into a apt complex selling for a couple million but I guess if you just keep saving, can get the down payment together or start with smaller size properties

You're full of cr@p. It can be done. You don't need to get into commercial properties in order to replace your pharmacist salary with income from rentals; especially not in the Midwest. Save it, though. Carry on.

 

[PumpkinSmasher]

You're full of cr@p. It can be done. You don't need to get into commercial properties in order to replace your pharmacist salary with income from rentals; especially not in the Midwest. Save it, though. Carry on.

How am I full of crap, I just gave an example not an absolute? But, yes I am fairly certain there are not many situations where 3 residential rental homes will bring in income close to a rph salary, especially when you still have a large note to pay down. I agree the Heartland has definitely been a more attractive choice to invest over last couple years in terms of real estate. Living there sounds aweful to me but investing there I am all for, but to each their own.

You need to simmer your little self down...

 

[wagrxm2000]

How am I full of crap, I just gave an example not an absolute? But, yes I am fairly certain there are not many situations where 3 residential rental homes will bring in income close to a rph salary, especially when you still have a large note to pay down. I agree the Heartland has definitely been a more attractive choice to invest over last couple years in terms of real estate. Living there sounds aweful to me but investing there I am all for, but to each their own.

You need to simmer your little self down...

 

[Momus]

3 rental properties that generate 1.5 to 2x pharmacist's salary? i would like to hear what kind of properties to achieve this.

If you buy in 2011-2012, 3 houses x 400k house in socal cash, all of them rent about $3500 now. So, it will replace the 10k/mo rph income (1x).

You have to have a time machine for that since these houses go for 800-850k now.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Eh, everything is a risk. 401-K's are a risk and no guarantee. Life is a risk, and no guarantee. I've in the $100,000 - $200,000 range of savings, which is FAR more than the average American. But apparently FAR less than many people on this board. Yes, I "wasted" a lot of money, but I enjoyed it at the time, so was it a waste? If I had died the next day after some "wasteful" spending, no one would question that spending. Of course, on average, most of us will live to be 80 or so, so it certainly bodes well to save for the future, to some extent.

But as Lord999 pointed out, many things are best enjoyed younger. Just one example, taste goes in the elderly, so why why no splurge on fine dining in the younger years, and eat crap in the elderly years when it all tastes the same anyway? Like most people of my generation, I was pretty ignorant financially, but if I had it all to do over again, I wouldn't do a lot different. Because I could still die tomorrow (or even today.) I sure as all get out would *never* put 20% of my income (or whatever the max is) in the gambling market of the 401-K racket, instead of enjoying the life I have today. And against the conventional wisdom, I am quite satisfied having saved more so my many children can go to college debt-free (or at least mostly....so far none have wanted to be an MD or anything, but something like that would require debt), rather than having my children take out huge loans just so I could have a huge 401-k. That I might never live to enjoy.

And unlike Momus, I DO greatly enjoy fine electronics, and living in an actual house instead of a van. A lot of times what people spend is not about keeping up with the Jones, it's about enjoying life and the moment. Party on, Dude.

 

[gwarm01]

My savings are far less than some posters here, but still much further ahead than your average person my age. I graduated pharmacy school in my late 20s, so I wasn't able to contribute much to retirement before then.

I now contribute the maximum to every tax advantaged account I can while also doing light investing and putting money in a savings account. I'm still able to enjoy all the luxuries of life and don't feel like I'm living frugally. There's something to be said about not having children, folks.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Eh, everything is a risk. 401-K's are a risk and no guarantee. Life is a risk, and no guarantee. I've in the $100,000 - $200,000 range of savings, which is FAR more than the average American. But apparently FAR less than many people on this board. Yes, I "wasted" a lot of money, but I enjoyed it at the time, so was it a waste? If I had died the next day after some "wasteful" spending, no one would question that spending. Of course, on average, most of us will live to be 80 or so, so it certainly bodes well to save for the future, to some extent.

But as Lord999 pointed out, many things are best enjoyed younger. Just one example, taste goes in the elderly, so why why no splurge on fine dining in the younger years, and eat crap in the elderly years when it all tastes the same anyway? Like most people of my generation, I was pretty ignorant financially, but if I had it all to do over again, I wouldn't do a lot different. Because I could still die tomorrow (or even today.) I sure as all get out would *never* put 20% of my income (or whatever the max is) in the gambling market of the 401-K racket, instead of enjoying the life I have today. And against the conventional wisdom, I am quite satisfied having saved more so my many children can go to college debt-free (or at least mostly....so far none have wanted to be an MD or anything, but something like that would require debt), rather than having my children take out huge loans just so I could have a huge 401-k. That I might never live to enjoy.

And unlike Momus, I DO greatly enjoy fine electronics, and living in an actual house instead of a van. A lot of times what people spend is not about keeping up with the Jones, it's about enjoying life and the moment. Party on, Dude.

This is 100% how you should be living your life. Living frugally should be meant for very specific people that truly want to live that lifestyle. It shouldn't be an investing strategy. That kid of the my money mustache guy is probably hating his life right now everytime he sees his friends having fun or going on a real vacation. That is, if he has friends, might be homeschooled

I will say though, don't go overboard, one should still invest enough to stay on track for your retirement age you've chosen.

 

[Dr Wario]

This is 100% how you should be living your life. Living frugally should be meant for very specific people that truly want to live that lifestyle. It shouldn't be an investing strategy. That kid of the my money mustache guy is probably hating his life right now everytime he sees his friends having fun or going on a real vacation. That is, if he has friends, might be homeschooled

I will say though, don't go overboard, one should still invest enough to stay on track for your retirement age you've chosen.

Here is the thing with frugality, the balance point is different for every person, but the money that you have when you are in your 20's is massively more valuable than money you have on your 40's.

An example is $200 invested each month for 40 years (assuming an 8% average annual return) equates to approx: $670,000. If you want to have the same amount in only 30 years (let's say you delayed starting to invest for 10 years while you lived it up) you would have to save about $450/month which is more than double, and you actually end up having to save $68,000 more from your income to end up with the same amount at the end.

I am not saying what people should do with their money, but they should at least know the math of how much having those fancy dinners and luxury cars actually costs them. My initial plan when I was younger was that I wanted my net worth to increase $100k per year, this was very difficult when I didn't have much invested so almost all of that had to come from saving income, but now that my portfolio is large, I don't have to put away any of my income to hit my goal. I am only in my mid 30's yet due to the actions I took when younger, I can loosen the purse strings a little and I won't feel the strain on my retirement.

 

[PharmFarmed]

I don't think people realize how much 110-120K a year is. It all depends on your spending habits. I don't see how a sole income that is over twice the HOUSEHOLD average income could possibly allow you to live paycheck to paycheck unless you have really bad spending habits.

 

[AlwaysContrary]

I don't think people realize how much 110-120K a year is. It all depends on your spending habits. I don't see how a sole income that is over twice the HOUSEHOLD average income could possibly allow you to live paycheck to paycheck unless you have really bad spending habits.

most of the people on SDN are spoiled brats and don't realize how good they have it.

 

[lord999]

I don't think people realize how much 110-120K a year is. It all depends on your spending habits. I don't see how a sole income that is over twice the HOUSEHOLD average income could possibly allow you to live paycheck to paycheck unless you have really bad spending habits.

Swedish death cleaning and the anorexic home | Literary Review of Canada

Regressive taxation and intangibles (I live in FiDi Manhattan or Inner Loop Chicago, I live in the best school district in the state (Austin Westlake) and send my children there, I have a bunch of dependents (my parents, my expensive spouse, etc)). The former is more or less mandatory (taxation especially AMT), but you'd be surprised about how hard it is to escape the latter if you're in that part of society. And yes, there is a marketing conspiracy to keep everyone down. To break the cycle, you have to think about some other time. My own take on people like @Momus is that it actually doesn't matter if s/he (I think @Momus is a he but giving the benefit of the doubt) makes enough to guarantee his own passive income, it's enough that he doesn't play the consumption game and avoids most of those expenses, making money is just icing on the cake. That's the point, to leave the game.

But for most people at the level of society they want to participate in, there's a cost. It's not all bad. I do live in arguably the best school district in my state, I have not eaten beef in my household in over three years since we replaced beef with elk (which doubles the cost of meat), I work in a peaceful, low-stress environment that allows me to take on very high stress, high-pressure jobs. I'm far from living paycheck-to-paycheck, but there's point in retiring even if you have made those numbers, because when the game changes, you want to have something to give up, and in a future game that I can think of, money is not necessarily worth enough. Health, access to decent people, life skills to go it alone are the game that I'm preparing for. Hilariously, I've taken up carpentry and metalwork on the side as I'm tired of my spouse's obsession with the dollhouse living space where her furniture purchases routinely exceed my takehome annual income (she makes a multiple of mine, so it's fine). Now I can hold her off by trying to make it myself. It's a doom-it-yourself project, but I think besides the enjoyment, it does prepare me for an era where I simply can't trust anyone anymore and I have to be strategic about what trading relationships I form.

But yeah, about 5% of my class (almost 15 years) hit their 2-4M mark and are out of the game now either from retirement or part-time.

 

[Dr. Galazkiewicz]

Most people never truly attain self-awareness. The vast majority go about day to day making funny noises as a sort of evolved primate, but truth is their mental foci extend no further than the upcoming weekend.

The continual barrage of media and peer pressure to consume, keeps at bay that gnawing existential abyss so few can face. Those that can are confronted with a tough choice. Succumb & go with the suburban yuppie flow...


Or resist. Thinking multi-generationally beyond one's own lifespan, a concept absent in the modern credit orgy the last 40 years.

A very daunting task for these solitary souls. To eschew immediate gratification is tantamount to swimming upstream culturally. This can manifest as extreme under-consumption:

Or as a the hermit/prophet archetype:

We need more Momuses in this country. Once upon a time it was a virtue to be a saver. We are going to need them to rebuild after what's coming.

 

[Modest_anteater]

Let's be real here. You are not going to be wealthy by working as a pharmacist. You are not going to be wealthy by working for someone else.

Life is always about risk vs reward. There are the "good" risks like contributing to your 401 k, saving 15-20% of your income. Then there are the "bad" risks like taking that fancy vacation you can't afford because you want to post pictures on FB.

Here are some of the dumb things I have seen people do:

- paying 7% interest on their student loan when they can refinance and pay 3.5%. Keep on thinking the government will forgive your debt when you are making 120 k+ a year

- keep on taking on debt and hoping your asset will keep on going up like buying a house with 3.5% down payment, buying stocks. You got into this game a little too late. When it goes down (and it will) you are not going to have anything to stop the bleeding. That is when you are going to feel the pain.

- buying an expensive car. I know this guy who used his student loans as a down payment for a BMW. Get this...he was using loans that were charging him 7% a year to buy a car that is also charging him interest rate.

- spent years in school and taking on debt and then you decided you don't want to work as a pharmacist and you want to be a stay at home spouse. Really? Who is going to pay off your debt now?

- renting an expensive apartment right out of school. Living in downtown is not only expensive but you also have to live a certain lifestyle which includes driving a nice car, going to fancy restaurants and bars.

The point: it is easy to take on more debt, buy things you don't need, go on a fancy vacation. It is much harder to say no to those things. So you can tell people what they should do but how many people are going to follow thru? I can guarantee you not too many people will. That is their choose. Let them live their life.

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

"- buying an expensive car. I know this guy who used his student loans as a down payment for a BMW. "
Those types of buys while seemingly a poor investment on paper can be a good investment for men for impressing women. A lot of men in pharmacy school are single and have been chronically unsuccessful at courting women to get a gf or wife. I 100% support buying a BMW if someone things it could help them impress a future wife.

 

[Momus]

And unlike Momus, I DO greatly enjoy fine electronics, and living in an actual house instead of a van. A lot of times what people spend is not about keeping up with the Jones, it's about enjoying life and the moment. Party on, Dude.

My windows gaming laptop that I bought for $750 on BF last yr will still outrun your sh1tty $2k Mac in any tasks This will last me for another 8 yrs just like my previous laptop.

A van will be nice. My coupe is 10 yrs old now, the paint starts to peel off. Are you gonna give me that van? It will be nice to live in one I can save more money!

 

[ExpressMaiL]

My definition of wealth has changed greatly over time. If someone told me they had 100k in savings back in undergrad, I would have thought they were wealthy. To me, "wealthy" is currently the following: the ability to maintain my lifestyle and whatever monthly payments I have without working, indefinitely. Since I can't do this without working, I am not wealthy. Sucks... and back to work.

Also, average American with 10k in savings? That's probably 1/5 households. 100k in savings... 1/500 households... 1M in savings... 1/50,000 would be my guess.

 

[iggles]

"- buying an expensive car. I know this guy who used his student loans as a down payment for a BMW. "
Those types of buys while seemingly a poor investment on paper can be a good investment for men for impressing women. A lot of men in pharmacy school are single and have been chronically unsuccessful at courting women to get a gf or wife. I 100% support buying a BMW if someone things it could help them impress a future wife.

Its true. I bought a new lexus as a P3. After my first job interview I ran into my interviewer in the parking lot and she was obviously drooling over my car. Before she even had a chance to mutter "nice ride!" I stuck out my finger in a shushing motion and said "shutup baby I know". Received a call from HR the next morning with an offer letter.

 

[Dr. Galazkiewicz]

My definition of wealth has changed greatly over time. If someone told me they had 100k in savings back in undergrad, I would have thought they were wealthy. To me, "wealthy" is currently the following: the ability to maintain my lifestyle and whatever monthly payments I have without working, indefinitely. Since I can't do this without working, I am not wealthy. Sucks... and back to work.

Also, average American with 10k in savings? That's probably 1/5 households. 100k in savings... 1/500 households... 1M in savings... 1/50,000 would be my guess.

Only 39% of Americans have enough savings to cover a $1,000 emergency

We've gone from this

To this all within a lifespan.

 

[Modest_anteater]

Only 39% of Americans have enough savings to cover a $1,000 emergency

We've gone from this

To this all within a lifespan.

Spending within their means isn't even just an American problem. The federal government can't even spend within it's budget and has to borrow money and STILL spends in excess of it's income. Look at states like IL that do the same thing. The lack of self control is pathetic

 

[owlegrad]

Also, average American with 10k in savings? That's probably 1/5 households. 100k in savings... 1/500 households... 1M in savings... 1/50,000 would be my guess.

You think 1/5 of American households have 10k in savings? I would be really curious where you are getting that estimate from. In fact all your estimates seem very generous to me. 1 out of 50,000 households have 1M in savings? LOL, sure ok.

 

[Momus]

"- buying an expensive car. I know this guy who used his student loans as a down payment for a BMW. "
Those types of buys while seemingly a poor investment on paper can be a good investment for men for impressing women. A lot of men in pharmacy school are single and have been chronically unsuccessful at courting women to get a gf or wife. I 100% support buying a BMW if someone things it could help them impress a future wife.

This is not the kind of wife you want to attract. Run. Far far away.

My definition of wealth has changed greatly over time. If someone told me they had 100k in savings back in undergrad, I would have thought they were wealthy. To me, "wealthy" is currently the following: the ability to maintain my lifestyle and whatever monthly payments I have without working, indefinitely. Since I can't do this without working, I am not wealthy. Sucks... and back to work.

Also, average American with 10k in savings? That's probably 1/5 households. 100k in savings... 1/500 households... 1M in savings... 1/50,000 would be my guess.

Actually, there are a lot of millionaires next door.

1 Out of Every 20 Americans Is Now a Millionaire: Report

 

[ExpressMaiL]

You think 1/5 of American households have 10k in savings? I would be really curious where you are getting that estimate from. In fact all your estimates seem very generous to me. 1 out of 50,000 households have 1M in savings? LOL, sure ok.

I'm guessing but apparently way off. My ratio was 0.00002 versus 0.05 from the article.

This is not the kind of wife you want to attract. Run. Far far away.

Actually, there are a lot of millionaires next door.

1 Out of Every 20 Americans Is Now a Millionaire: Report

I wonder what algorithm and numbers were used to calculate that.

 

[Momus]

I'm guessing but apparently way off. My ratio was 0.00002 versus 0.05 from the article.



I wonder what algorithm and numbers were used to calculate that.

I'm sure they calculate house value, not liquid savings only. A third to half that number for not counting house value for savings millionaires.

That's still quite a lot of people you see on the road everyday are networth millionaires.

 

[owlegrad]

I'm guessing but apparently way off. My ratio was 0.00002 versus 0.05 from the article.



I wonder what algorithm and numbers were used to calculate that.

Yeah I don’t believe that for a second. 1 in 20 a millionaire? I don’t believe 1 in 20 households have a million dollars let alone 1 in 20 people. Maybe if you count corporations as people? Lol

 

[ExpressMaiL]

Yeah I don’t believe that for a second. 1 in 20 a millionaire? I don’t believe 1 in 20 households have a million dollars let alone 1 in 20 people. Maybe if you count corporations as people? Lol

Agree. Even stating 1 in 20 people have $1,000 in their bank account is a huge stretch. 1M? Come on... someone contact the author of that article, lol.

 

[Momus]

Agree. Even stating 1 in 20 people have $1,000 in their bank account is a huge stretch. 1M? Come on... someone contact the author of that article, lol.

A lot of people have huge ass equity on their homes in the coastal. Those area are also heavily populated. That's why you see a huge increase of networth millionaires. Liquid savings millionaire tho, cut that number by a third.

 

[lord999]

Technically, everyone on my block is a multimillionaire (Deephaven, MN) but I only consider three households out of 16 to be recession proofed to keep those assets. We'll see soon enough. Those same three households are the only ones who survived the 1987 downturn where everyone else was property taxes out of their homes. It's not about money, it's about capital, power, and networking in addition to money that makes the difference. I personally look forward to buying some distressed Lake Minnetonka property.

 

[Sabril]

is being a Boglehead bad? I read half of their investment book and I am planning to attend the local chapter meeting soon. I know **** about investment and have about $100K to my name after 7 years of working. Dumb dude with cash to lose. Already sound like the perfect recipe for disaster.

 

[Momus]

Technically, everyone on my block is a multimillionaire (Deephaven, MN) but I only consider three households out of 16 to be recession proofed to keep those assets. We'll see soon enough. Those same three households are the only ones who survived the 1987 downturn where everyone else was property taxes out of their homes. It's not about money, it's about capital, power, and networking in addition to money that makes the difference. I personally look forward to buying some distressed Lake Minnetonka property.

Yes, every homeowner in rich neighborhood is pretty much millionaires. No way you aren't a millionaire living in $1.5M+ worth average house.

How Many Millionaires Are There in America? Decamillionaires? -DQYDJ
To crack 1% NW, we need $10M+ =(

 

[Momus]

is being a Boglehead bad? I read half of their investment book and I am planning to attend the local chapter meeting soon. I know **** about investment and have about $100K to my name after 7 years of working. Dumb dude with cash to lose. Already sound like the perfect recipe for disaster.

It's OK dude. Personal finance doesn't come as first nature for many. I hope you at least paid off your student loans.

Attending the local chapter isn't necessary. You will probably meet a lot of old retired old dudes there XD I tried going to the one in San Diego but they always have the meeting on Monday, so I never go since I have work. Finish the Boglehead book. Try to minimize your expenses, and max out all your retirement accounts, then open a Vanguard account and start monthly automatic contribution. Set it and forget it. Ask more questions in their forums or here.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Seems more like 1/20 households are millionaires if you include their home value minus the mortgage. Not that far-fetched if you take out a $1M mortgage and pay 3.5% down.

 

[owlegrad]

So if you include your house in your NW does that somehow account for if you own vs have a mortgage? How many actaully have a positive net worth>1M?

Or does my question even make sense?