How many of you sacrifice mice?

[dandelion]

I wanted to get some research experience in during my glide year & have found a lab that's willing to take me on as a volunteer. The people are nice, & they're investigating a fascinating organism. The problem is that my participation would require me to sacrifice lots & lots of mice. I have never had a problem with the dissection of dead things, but from the way that the mice squirm & squeal during innoculation (needle down esophagus), it's clear to me that they're suffering. And then they have to be sacrificed at the end. In principle, I believe that using mice for science is a good thing, that a good chunk of the knowledge that doctors use to save human lives can't be gotten any other way. But in practice, the idea of harming and then killing another mammal on a daily basis makes me a little sick. I know, I eat meat, & I'm a hypocrite, etc etc. It's just the idea of having a life end in my hands . .

Am I being a baby? Is this something I need to get over if I'm going to be a doctor? At least doctors (the ones who don't do research anyway) don't have to harm or kill anything. Any of you have experience with this?

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[Medikit]

I did a unilateral nephrectomy on a rat in my vertebrate physiology class. I didn't have a hard time at all hitting the rat with a needle, cutting his back open, removing the kidney and tying off the artery, and clamping him back up. It was fun to see him running around the next day. But the following week we drowned him in ether and removed the other kidney. I had a really hard time with it. I knew that I was doing this to help my education, yet it still seemed wasteful. I knew the mouse was raised specifically for this purpose, that this was his destiny from day one. But it still made me feel a little sad and a little sick. I think it's normal to feel this way.

 

[morganlefay]

I did research this summer that also involved nephrectomies and then sacrificing rats. Lots of them, 160 to be exact. It was hard at first; the first week I felt awful and thought that this was a huge waste. I felt sick, etc... but then I kept reminding myself of why I was doing the project: to make patients with CHF have better quality of life and to really make a difference in medicine. I still hated sacrificing the rats, but at least it meant something. Hope that helps. Good luck with the research.

 

[Apparition]

I also had a hard time with the idea of killing animals and missed out on a lot of research opportunities because of this. I posted a thread on this topic a while ago. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=78321
Hope it helps.

 

[BAM!]

it's important for docs to care about life, and i imagine that it's a good sign that you're squeamish about killing.

 

[VPDcurt]

I am doing my masters research and I have to kill about 8-10 rabbits a week...it's a shame because they are really cute...its kind of cool in the beginning because I essentially put in an A line in the carotid, an IV line in the jugular, and then open the rib cage to expose the heart. that is all pretty fun because the rabbit is still alive...then i have to ligate the LAD and give the rabbit an MI for 30 mins before reperfusing for 3 hrs...at the end, I have to pull the rabbits heart out while the thing is still alive - it's pretty hideous and i am still sick to my stomach every time i do it...i actually prefer not to do it so i have the PhD in my lab do it whenever he's around.

 

[sunsweet]

If you don't feel comfortable doing it, don't. If you think its wrong, don't do it. I don't think you need to get over it to be a doctor. I've done surgeries on rats but I refuse to kill them. I guess you could argue that those rats were going to be sacrificed, whether I did it or someone else, but I couldn't bring myself to do it. I also don't eat meat. Its actually really hard because on one side I don't believe in killing animals but from the scientific point of view, you need to do experiments on animals before doing clinical trials on humans. and rats and other animals have helped save so many human lives. We have this thing in my lab that says (about rats)-"They've saved more lives than 911."

In the end, it's really your decision and what you believe in.

 

[Nittany Lion]

I also work in a lab that sacrifices a lot of mice for various pharmacological experiments. I've been involved with three large-scale mouse studies so far in the past year. Usually one of the PhD students is the one who does the actual sacrificing, and we use the cervical disolcation method, which in my mind, is the most humane way to go. The professor whom I work for is very adamant about always making sure our techniques are ethical and that we respect the animals we work with and treat them with care. My particular job immediately after the sacrifice is to the dissect the livers and brains, and I always have found that part really interesting and relevant to my anatomy/physiology coursework and also to what I"ll be learning about in the future, so I've never been squeamish or iffy about it.

HOWEVER... I recently attended a three-hour mouse biomethodology seminar, where we got to learn and practice various research methods on mice... including some really um, tedious blood draw methods such as the eye bleed (if you aren't familiar with it, you probably don't want to know). After we poked and prodded anesthesized mice for a while, the instructor sacrificed them and I just felt like, ok that was really pointless. Most of the techniques I learned that day are ones that I'll probably never have to use, and I just felt like a lot of unnecessary pain was inflicted for no reason...

So anyway, it can be a tough issue, and many of my non-science majoring friends don't agree with the work that I'm involved with in my lab. But that's ok because we need people out there who will be a voice for the animals, those who will always keep a watchful and critical eye over research methods to make sure things stay as humane as possible. And I guess my point is, if you feel like the researchers methods are ethical and the research being done is worthwhile...then it's a pretty awesome feeling knowing you're involved with research that can advance medical treatments and biomedical technology.

wow I didn't realize I had so much to say about that!

 

[constructor]

I also had a hard time with the idea of killing animals and missed out on a lot of research opportunities because of this. I posted a thread on this topic a while ago. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=78321
Hope it helps.

if you guys are emotional about this stuff, why not feel the same emotion about eating meat and poultry? it's a weird dichotomy, but i don't understand why a person who feels one way should act in two different ways in two virtually identical situations...

 

[aphistis]

I am doing my masters research and I have to kill about 8-10 rabbits a week...it's a shame because they are really cute...its kind of cool in the beginning because I essentially put in an A line in the carotid, an IV line in the jugular, and then open the rib cage to expose the heart. that is all pretty fun because the rabbit is still alive...then i have to ligate the LAD and give the rabbit an MI for 30 mins before reperfusing for 3 hrs...at the end, I have to pull the rabbits heart out while the thing is still alive - it's pretty hideous and i am still sick to my stomach every time i do it...i actually prefer not to do it so i have the PhD in my lab do it whenever he's around.

...what the bloody hell are you studying in your lab? That's pretty grotesque.

 

[VPDcurt]

...what the bloody hell are you studying in your lab? That's pretty grotesque.

the lab I work in discovered that Viagra actually reduces the size of an infarct upon MI and reduces ischemia/reperfusion injury. now we are testing that with Levitra and we are looking at the effects of varying the time of the dose. it's actually pretty interesting stuff. it requires removing the heart to stain and measure the infarct size.

 

[constructor]

the lab I work in discovered that Viagra actually reduces the size of an infarct upon MI and reduces ischemia/reperfusion injury. now we are testing that with Levitra and we are looking at the effects of varying the time of the dose. it's actually pretty interesting stuff. it requires removing the heart to stain and measure the infarct size.

no offense, but that's a total waste of the animals' lives...

 

[phleebie]

bump

 

[dandelion]

Thanks for the replies: it's good to know that many of us have the same feelings with regard to killing animals in lab. I've been thinking about the mice all evening, & I'm actually wondering now if I should look for a nice soil science or plant lab instead.

As I said, I believe (in principle) that using mice in research is fine, and I do eat meat. I feel bad because when I first talked to the PI over the phone, & he told me about how they used an animal model in his lab, I told him I thought I would be fine with it. Then I spent several hours observing the procedures today & experienced a gut reaction, which I can't explain or justify through intellectual reasons. Probably with time, I can get over it. I mean, people can get over pretty much anything. But I am not sure I want to become the person who doesn't become disturbed at killing small animals. I'm afraid of doing damage to my soul. But then, I wonder if these thoughts are just the product of a cushy, middle-class life, where I can have meat on my dinner plate every night without ever having to kill anything or see death.

 

[Treg]

I have probably euthanized 1000+ mice during my thesis project. At first, it was difficult, but you do become desensitized to it over time. I think that it is similar to the situation when you have your first real patient die, since many students/residents I talk to say that they got choked up. As your career progresses, you don't care any less, but I think that emotionally you learn to cope. Do I enjoy killing mice? No. But I have found a way to do it that fits with my experiment and my comfort level.

In terms of experimental techniques, yes, retro-orbital bleeds are difficult and gross. So are cardiac punctures, tail bleeds, IV injections, surgeries, you name it. I think that as you become more skilled at these things, you get to know the behavior patterns of the animals you work with such that you know you are not doing them unjust harm. Mice that get surgery will wake up quickly and run around, eat, and drink. They are not laying there writhing in pain, so you know everything went ok. In fact the worst "suffering" I have seen in research animals occurs when one of them goes nutso and begins to cannibalize his or her buddies. Not pretty.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if it makes you a little squeemish, but in principle you are ok with it, it will get better for you over time. I do still get grossed out at times, and I will NEVER do another cervical dislocation on a non-anesthetized animal (bad freak experience). My inherent belief in science and the greater good supercedes my personal misgivings. I think you should draw the line when your feelings make it difficult/impossible to do your experiments properly.

Treg

 

[constructor]

Thanks for the replies: it's good to know that many of us have the same feelings with regard to killing animals in lab. I've been thinking about the mice all evening, & I'm actually wondering now if I should look for a nice soil science or plant lab instead.

As I said, I believe (in principle) that using mice in research is fine, and I do eat meat. I feel bad because when I first talked to the PI over the phone, & he told me about how they used an animal model in his lab, I told him I thought I would be fine with it. Then I spent several hours observing the procedures today & experienced a gut reaction, which I can't explain or justify through intellectual reasons. Probably with time, I can get over it. I mean, people can get over pretty much anything. But I am not sure I want to become the person who doesn't become disturbed at killing small animals. I'm afraid of doing damage to my soul. But then, I wonder if these thoughts are just the product of a cushy, middle-class life, where I can have meat on my dinner plate every night without ever having to kill anything or see death.

yeah, i hear that... it's a lot different to actually be involved with the process than to hear about it or somehow benefit indirectly from it. just go to a farm where they slaughter pigs or cattle and i guarantee you it'll change your life unless you're the kind of person whom it takes a lot to make feel disturbed. it certainly changed my life and made me wonder about how much respect we have for life other than our own... it's pretty sad.

 

[Apparition]

if you guys are emotional about this stuff, why not feel the same emotion about eating meat and poultry? it's a weird dichotomy, but i don't understand why a person who feels one way should act in two different ways in two virtually identical situations...

It's not that hard to understand. It's knowing that YOU are causing the suffering and death that's hard. Most people eat beef but I doubt most would be able to slaughter a cow. You also don't see the animal while it's alive, it's totally different psychologically.

 

[constructor]

It's not that hard to understand. It's knowing that YOU are causing the suffering and death that's hard. Most people eat beef but I doubt most would be able to slaughter a cow. You also don't see the animal while it's alive, it's totally different psychologically.

well the reason it's not very hard to understand for you and most other people is because you're stopping short of thinking about the situation fully (which i didn't do either for a long time). the bottom line here is that you're benefitting from the death of another living being, whether or not you're actually killing it. not to be philosophical, but you're indirectly responsible for its death by being a consumer of meat or by agreeing to work in the lab. with some animals (like turkey and chicken), it's easy to be indifferent because most of us generally don't perceive them as anything but food, but with other animals it's not so easy. my uncle works on a ranch and he loves his cattle but slaughters them anyway because that's how he makes a living. like many of you guys working in labs, he feels bad about it but he accepts the necessity of it.

here's the leap in thought that most people fail to make here... i think that for most people, it's a stretch to think that the piece of steak on their dinner plate got there by causing so much pain and suffering for a fellow living being, not just when it was killed but also when it was raised, etc. like i said, i didn't know these things or have the instinct or maturity to think about them this way until i went to a farm and saw them being slaughtered and the conditions in which they were raised. i think making this connection is a big step in determining whether or not your attitude changes, and your personality is also a big part of it.

 

[stoic]

I've never had a problem doing stuff with mice/rats (and I've done some pretty brutal stuff to the critters).

The only time I get emotional is when they try to bite me. Then I get mad and they get to go via mouse gilotine instead of cerival dislocation.

It's not like we're killing these guys for fun. Good comes from their demise.

 

[stifler]

i performed stroke models (mca occlusion) all summer. as a result, i saw mice suffer from various levels of strokes. a day after they suffer a stroke i had to decapitate them.

this was very difficult, not the decapitating part because i think i am doing them a favor because they are in so much pain. however, it was very painful to see them suffer strokes because when i was younger, two relatives passed away from strokes and now i can see how much they suffered. that was the most difficult part.

 

[constructor]

It's not like we're killing these guys for fun. Good comes from their demise.

there's absolutely no good that comes out of it for them, so what does it matter to them whether you're killing them for fun or curing a million humans?

 

[Fermata]

I don't see people decrying the killing of cockroaches (which are used plenty in research).

 

[constructor]

sorry, i will weep for the cockroaches tonight then.

 

[Fermata]

sorry, i will weep for the cockroaches tonight then.

REPENT!

 

[hotlikebutter]

there's absolutely no good that comes out of it for them, so what does it matter to them whether you're killing them for fun or curing a million humans?

without research they wouldnt be alive. but that will probably not convince you about the need for animal research. think about it this way, if your dad/mom/brother was suffering from some a disease, would you refuse a therapy because they discovered it by using animals? if you say yes, then i applaud your strong conviction and love for all life.

also, where do you draw the line? do you wear leather at all? do you eat animals or animal by products? how about beer? yeast are eukaryotic just like animals. you may be "murdering" by the millions everytime you have happy hour.

during my entire research experience (4+ years) with humans/primates/rats/mice i have never thought of one life as being less than the other. i value all of them and wish we could use a computer or some magical machine to test drugs and therapies, but we cant. but i understand your conviction at least in theory. England would be a great place for you. animal research is practically impossible there. you can do more things to humans there, since humans actaully consent.

 

[Mr hawkings]

I wanted to get some research experience in during my glide year & have found a lab that's willing to take me on as a volunteer. The people are nice, & they're investigating a fascinating organism. The problem is that my participation would require me to sacrifice lots & lots of mice. I have never had a problem with the dissection of dead things, but from the way that the mice squirm & squeal during innoculation (needle down esophagus), it's clear to me that they're suffering. And then they have to be sacrificed at the end. In principle, I believe that using mice for science is a good thing, that a good chunk of the knowledge that doctors use to save human lives can't be gotten any other way. But in practice, the idea of harming and then killing another mammal on a daily basis makes me a little sick. I know, I eat meat, & I'm a hypocrite, etc etc. It's just the idea of having a life end in my hands . .

Am I being a baby? Is this something I need to get over if I'm going to be a doctor? At least doctors (the ones who don't do research anyway) don't have to harm or kill anything. Any of you have experience with this?

Would you rather be haunted by the ghosts of the sacrificed mice or the ghosts of the humans that would die without the research those mice died for.Thats how i get through it.

 

[neuronerd]

I haven't read all the posts on this thread so I hope I'm not repeating this . . .but there's millions of other research opportunities besides ones that directly involve killing animals. I couldn't live with myself doing research like that because in my opinion, most of research becomes a dead end way before you figure out the right way to do. But if there weren't people doing it, then where would we be? There are a lot of interesting topics. I'm working on tumor-induced angiogenesis right now and before I worked 4 years on giardia and I find it fascinating. Nothing to do with animals . . I leave that to the other labs.

 

[leechy]

People have been raising good points on this thread. I think it's natural to feel saddened or uncomfortable about animal research, especially when you're the one having to do the sacking. On the one hand, I recognize it as a necessary evil to save human lives (though I don't think all of the animal research that's being done is worth the suffering; some experiments are less worth it in my eyes than others). On the other hand, it's just a sad philosophical truth that there is so much natural (i.e., not human produced) evil in the world, and we need to cause some suffering to others to alleviate our own suffering.

Someone raised the issue of "drawing the line", which I agree is a real issue, with this and many other issues. But the reason the death of yeast doesn't bother us is because they don't feel pain, and the pain of animals affects us generally in proportion to how closely they are related to humans. For example, I'm still pretty much freaked out by primate research; I could not be involved with a lab doing research on them (unless it was of the cognitive sort, where the animals are not physically harmed).

 

[neuronerd]

On the other hand, it's just a sad philosophical truth that there is so much natural (i.e., not human produced) evil in the world, and we need to cause some suffering to others to alleviate our own suffering.



Very VERY good point, in my opinion.

 

[VPDcurt]

no offense, but that's a total waste of the animals' lives...

You are an idiot. This research could save peoples' lives in that it can reduce the amount of tissue death in someone having a heart attack. I guess you just don't understand the study - it's not your fault.

hey constructor, why don't you go wrap your arms around a tree or something? you are pretty granola and there is nothing worse than a crunchy doctor.

 

[liverotcod]

I was looking forward to a thread about ritual religious sacrifice of mice, and this is what I get?

This is cool, though:

This research could save peoples' lives in that it can reduce the amount of tissue death in someone having a heart attack.

So, according to your study, Viagra not only permits the past-their-prime crowd to make whoopee, but also helps them survive the experience? Booya.

 

[Apparition]

well the reason it's not very hard to understand for you and most other people is because you're stopping short of thinking about the situation fully (which i didn't do either for a long time). the bottom line here is that you're benefitting from the death of another living being, whether or not you're actually killing it. not to be philosophical, but you're indirectly responsible for its death by being a consumer of meat or by agreeing to work in the lab. with some animals (like turkey and chicken), it's easy to be indifferent because most of us generally don't perceive them as anything but food, but with other animals it's not so easy. my uncle works on a ranch and he loves his cattle but slaughters them anyway because that's how he makes a living. like many of you guys working in labs, he feels bad about it but he accepts the necessity of it.

here's the leap in thought that most people fail to make here... i think that for most people, it's a stretch to think that the piece of steak on their dinner plate got there by causing so much pain and suffering for a fellow living being, not just when it was killed but also when it was raised, etc. like i said, i didn't know these things or have the instinct or maturity to think about them this way until i went to a farm and saw them being slaughtered and the conditions in which they were raised. i think making this connection is a big step in determining whether or not your attitude changes, and your personality is also a big part of it.

I totally agree with everything you're saying in this thread. I have seen the conditions these animals live in and the way they are slaughtered (ok, on TV, not the same, I know). We don't think about these things. In nature, animals survive by killing others, except for animals we eat, which actually are not predators. We are. I guess we didn't rise much above that.

Are you a vegetarian?

 

[constructor]

without research they wouldnt be alive. but that will probably not convince you about the need for animal research. think about it this way, if your dad/mom/brother was suffering from some a disease, would you refuse a therapy because they discovered it by using animals? if you say yes, then i applaud your strong conviction and love for all life.

also, where do you draw the line? do you wear leather at all? do you eat animals or animal by products? how about beer? yeast are eukaryotic just like animals. you may be "murdering" by the millions everytime you have happy hour.

during my entire research experience (4+ years) with humans/primates/rats/mice i have never thought of one life as being less than the other. i value all of them and wish we could use a computer or some magical machine to test drugs and therapies, but we cant. but i understand your conviction at least in theory. England would be a great place for you. animal research is practically impossible there. you can do more things to humans there, since humans actaully consent.

first of all, i have a great deal of respect for your attitude and convictions in spite of the fact that you're involved with animal research. but yeah, you make excellent points and i have in fact thought about these things... here's where i stand... i do support animal research but i feel very ****ty about doing so in light of the way rodents and other small animals are insensitively sacrificed just because we have such easy access to them in the scientific research community today. what i've noticed is that in many labs they'll test something on these animals without actually believing it's going to work. they'll cleave some bond and test it. if it doesn't work, then they'll oxidize it and test it again. you asked me if i would change my feelings if my mom or dad were sick. it's not about changing my mind, but it's about disagreeing with the principles. i support animal research like i said, but i just wish we would be less trigger-happy and give all life the respect it deserves even if it's that of a mere rodent. i just don't think we respect these animals' lives to anywhere near the same extent we would respect human lives if they were being used for the same situation. it would help me sleep better if i knew that animals aren't just being gratuitously sacrificed in the name of saving lives (which in terms of probability is a stretch anyway) - but that researchers are using proper discretion when taking their lives, but i'm afraid this is simply not true, at least from my experiences...

 

[VPDcurt]

first of all, i have a great deal of respect for your attitude and convictions in spite of the fact that you're involved with animal research. but yeah, you make excellent points and i have in fact thought about these things... here's where i stand... i do support animal research but i feel very ****ty about doing so in light of the way rodents and other small animals are insensitively sacrificed just because we have such easy access to them in the scientific research community today. what i've noticed is that in many labs they'll test something on these animals without actually believing it's going to work. they'll cleave some bond and test it. if it doesn't work, then they'll oxidize it and test it again. you asked me if i would change my feelings if my mom or dad were sick. it's not about changing my mind, but it's about disagreeing with the principles. i support animal research like i said, but i just wish we would be less trigger-happy and give all life the respect it deserves even if it's that of a mere rodent. i just don't think we respect these animals' lives to anywhere near the same extent we would respect human lives if they were being used for the same situation. it would help me sleep better if i knew that animals aren't just being gratuitously sacrificed in the name of saving lives (which in terms of probability is a stretch anyway) - but that researchers are using proper discretion when taking their lives, but i'm afraid this is simply not true, at least from my experiences...

wake up - you are living in a dreamworld

 

[constructor]

I totally agree with everything you're saying in this thread. I have seen the conditions these animals live in and the way they are slaughtered (ok, on TV, not the same, I know). We don't think about these things. In nature, animals survive by killing others, except for animals we eat, which actually are not predators. We are. I guess we didn't rise much above that.

Are you a vegetarian?

thanks for seeing my view. you know, i have absolutely no problem understanding and accepting the fact that some animals are lower on the food chain and will be hunted down and eaten by those above them. here's where i disagree, though... in nature, the prey is able to live a free life until the moment it gets hunted down and eaten. but what we do is to raise these livestock in conditions that are far beyond miserable (they're chained, beaten, living in their own excrement and in tiny spaces where they can't even move, poorly fed, debeaked, etc.) and we take their lives in the end anyway. as i see it, we're not only comsuming them as animals do in the wild (which i'm fine with), but we're also taking away their chance to live a free life. and yes, i am vegetarian mainly for this reason. i might sound fruity with my thoughts on a message board, but you have to understand that i have family that's involved with the meat packing and processing business. so i have really fought with myself over where i stand on this issue and it's been tough when everyone else in my family doesn't see where i'm coming from at all. i'm also a bodybuilder and my friends who compete with me think i'm nuts because they all eat a ton of meat while i have stuck true to my beliefs for the last several years. but these are all the things i think are far less important than standing up for what i believe in, and people whom i never expected to be supportive are starting to understand this.

 

[leechy]

thanks for seeing my view. you know, i have absolutely no problem understanding and accepting the fact that some animals are lower on the food chain and will be hunted down and eaten by those above them. here's where i disagree, though... in nature, the prey is able to live a free life until the moment it gets hunted down and eaten. but what we do is to raise these livestock in conditions that are far beyond miserable (they're chained, beaten, living in their own excrement and in tiny spaces where they can't even move, poorly fed, debeaked, etc.) and we take their lives in the end anyway. as i see it, we're not only comsuming them as animals do in the wild (which i'm fine with), but we're also taking away their chance to live a free life. and yes, i am vegetarian mainly for this reason. i might sound fruity with my thoughts on a message board, but you have to understand that i have family that's involved with the meat packing and processing business. so i have really fought with myself over where i stand on this issue and it's been tough when everyone else in my family doesn't see where i'm coming from at all. i'm also a bodybuilder and my friends who compete with me think i'm nuts because they all eat a ton of meat while i have stuck true to my beliefs for the last several years. but these are all the things i think are far less important than standing up for what i believe in, and people whom i never expected to be supportive are starting to understand this.

I agree, factory farming these days is really appalling... Props to ya for standing up for what you believe in.

On a more frivolous note: Did I read this all correctly? A body-builder who's sensitive enough to care about the animals?!? Calling all ladies....

And to VPDcurt, watch who you're calling "crunchy". Next to constructor and his granite abs, you might just be a potato chip. Or a bowl of tapioca.

[don't be offended anyone, just kidding around here]

 

[Caesars0331]

I feed my rats cheetos once a week.. they love it lol... I also perfuse them...cut off heads etc...

There is a great poster at the building where we house are rats and it says.

"Rats have saved more lives than 911"

 

[VPDcurt]

And to VPDcurt, watch who you're calling "crunchy". Next to constructor and his granite abs, you might just be a potato chip. Or a bowl of tapioca.

Apparently you misunderstood my use of the word "crunchy."

 

[hotlikebutter]

thanks for seeing my view. you know, i have absolutely no problem understanding and accepting the fact that some animals are lower on the food chain and will be hunted down and eaten by those above them. here's where i disagree, though... in nature, the prey is able to live a free life until the moment it gets hunted down and eaten. but what we do is to raise these livestock in conditions that are far beyond miserable (they're chained, beaten, living in their own excrement and in tiny spaces where they can't even move, poorly fed, debeaked, etc.) and we take their lives in the end anyway. as i see it, we're not only comsuming them as animals do in the wild (which i'm fine with), but we're also taking away their chance to live a free life. and yes, i am vegetarian mainly for this reason. i might sound fruity with my thoughts on a message board, but you have to understand that i have family that's involved with the meat packing and processing business. so i have really fought with myself over where i stand on this issue and it's been tough when everyone else in my family doesn't see where i'm coming from at all. i'm also a bodybuilder and my friends who compete with me think i'm nuts because they all eat a ton of meat while i have stuck true to my beliefs for the last several years. but these are all the things i think are far less important than standing up for what i believe in, and people whom i never expected to be supportive are starting to understand this.

thanks for taking both sides, a very rare quality these days as it would seem. this is a good communication, minus the insults by certain individuals. but this and many issues are the very heart of medicine. i read a few weeks back a book called "First Do No Harm" and it just enlightened me so much. If you dont like gray areas, dont go into medicine was my take home message. Also, i think most research labs are at least in theory bound to euthanize animals humanely. Are there people who violate this? Sure, most likely. But their are also priest who molest children, but we shouldnt lose the big picture and only focus on the occassional abuses.

by the way, my brother and his girlfriend dont eat animals or animal by products because of farming practices, so i hear it all the time. i am sympathetic to their convictions and understand your position.

 

[katec12345]

I've been working in a lab for around 4 months that requires me to sacrifice mice by cervical dislocation (holding their heads down then pulling the base of their tails, dislocating their c-spine). I thought I'd never be able to do it...I was HORRIFIED the first time I saw it (and the second, and the third...), and I'm definitely an animal loving kind of person (I let the worms go when I went fishing when I was little once!), but even I learned to suck it up and now I can do it without too much trouble. I mean, I don't LIKE to do it, but I can now.

 

[UTKB]

My job involves working with mice and I sacrifice anywhere between 10-50 mice per day by cervical location without anesthesia. Sometimes I use CO2. I also have to kill mouse pups by decapitation. There are guidelines that research labs must follow involving euthanasia of animals. The euthanasia is painless and without suffering if performed correctly.

This is the most difficult part of my job. When I first started, I cried when I watched it happen. They gave me time to come to terms with it before I actually had to do it. Everyone has different reactions. It still bothers me sometimes, but I try not to think about it and do procedures according to protocol so that the mice don't suffer.

The mice live a good life before they are sacrificed...they live with other mice in clean cages with plenty of food and water. Bottom line, we try to give the animals a decent life before sacrificing them in the most humane manner.

 

[akpete]

thanks for seeing my view. you know, i have absolutely no problem understanding and accepting the fact that some animals are lower on the food chain and will be hunted down and eaten by those above them. here's where i disagree, though... in nature, the prey is able to live a free life until the moment it gets hunted down and eaten. but what we do is to raise these livestock in conditions that are far beyond miserable (they're chained, beaten, living in their own excrement and in tiny spaces where they can't even move, poorly fed, debeaked, etc.) and we take their lives in the end anyway. as i see it, we're not only comsuming them as animals do in the wild (which i'm fine with), but we're also taking away their chance to live a free life. and yes, i am vegetarian mainly for this reason. i might sound fruity with my thoughts on a message board, but you have to understand that i have family that's involved with the meat packing and processing business. so i have really fought with myself over where i stand on this issue and it's been tough when everyone else in my family doesn't see where i'm coming from at all. i'm also a bodybuilder and my friends who compete with me think i'm nuts because they all eat a ton of meat while i have stuck true to my beliefs for the last several years. but these are all the things i think are far less important than standing up for what i believe in, and people whom i never expected to be supportive are starting to understand this.

I understand your viewpoint, and I'm sure you have seen some of these things, but please realize that not all farms are like this. I grew up on a farm, and being from Wisconsin, there were a ton of them around me. No animal was chained up and living in tiny space. The animals, except the very young, were all free to roam a couple acres. They are all well-fed so that they are healthy and produce milk. And in the end, these animals are slaughtered as well. In fact, I showed dairy cattle for 10 years, and often times got docked points for the animal being too fat!! I understand that strictly beef farms may be different, and large corporate farms as well, but not in the region I'm from. I'm sorry that you've seen farms like these, and I certainly don't agree with their practices, but I felt like I needed to defend farmers.

As for animals in research, I'm for it, but I know I'd have trouble killing them at first too. But if the research is necessary, and it is humane, I know I'd be able to deal with it. What I don't agree with is frivolous experimenting on animals when the preliminary testing could be in vitro instead. Perfect, then move on to animals. Whenever ever possible, that is. But there's no easy answer.

 

[djipopo]

I understand your viewpoint, and I'm sure you have seen some of these things, but please realize that not all farms are like this. I grew up on a farm, and being from Wisconsin, there were a ton of them around me. No animal was chained up and living in tiny space. The animals, except the very young, were all free to roam a couple acres. They are all well-fed so that they are healthy and produce milk. And in the end, these animals are slaughtered as well. In fact, I showed dairy cattle for 10 years, and often times got docked points for the animal being too fat!! I understand that strictly beef farms may be different, and large corporate farms as well, but not in the region I'm from. I'm sorry that you've seen farms like these, and I certainly don't agree with their practices, but I felt like I needed to defend farmers.

As for animals in research, I'm for it, but I know I'd have trouble killing them at first too. But if the research is necessary, and it is humane, I know I'd be able to deal with it. What I don't agree with is frivolous experimenting on animals when the preliminary testing could be in vitro instead. Perfect, then move on to animals. Whenever ever possible, that is. But there's no easy answer.

Hey this is off the topic a bit but i was just curious about something i heard and u sound like you would know is what i've heard is true. I heard that some people that show cattle beat them with planks to get them to look more muscular? I'm not trying to start anything. i just want to know your opinion.

 

[Ypo.]

Serial toad killer here (Bufo marinus )

 

[akpete]

Hey this is off the topic a bit but i was just curious about something i heard and u sound like you would know is what i've heard is true. I heard that some people that show cattle beat them with planks to get them to look more muscular? I'm not trying to start anything. i just want to know your opinion.

I've never seen that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen unfortunately. More of what I've seen relates to the training of the animal. It takes a lot of patience to train a calf/cow/steer to be led with a halter around a ring. With a lot of work, they can be as tame as puppies and actually quite sweet. But not everyone has that kind of patience, and will resort to other methods such as hitting. The most I've seen right before a show is stuff like hairspray to straighten the top line and baby/talcum powder and shoe polish to make them look nicer. Like a dog show. Haven't seen the plank beating though...

 

[Topspin82]

without research they wouldnt be alive. but that will probably not convince you about the need for animal research. think about it this way, if your dad/mom/brother was suffering from some a disease, would you refuse a therapy because they discovered it by using animals? if you say yes, then i applaud your strong conviction and love for all life.

also, where do you draw the line? do you wear leather at all? do you eat animals or animal by products? how about beer? yeast are eukaryotic just like animals. you may be "murdering" by the millions everytime you have happy hour.

during my entire research experience (4+ years) with humans/primates/rats/mice i have never thought of one life as being less than the other. i value all of them and wish we could use a computer or some magical machine to test drugs and therapies, but we cant. but i understand your conviction at least in theory. England would be a great place for you. animal research is practically impossible there. you can do more things to humans there, since humans actaully consent.

Well said. After graduation, I continued my undergraduate research and became a full-time researcher and manager of the transgenic mouse colonies. If there was another way to conduct research, I would do it in a heartbeat but I do not want to be in the way of a potential cure. It's sad to euthanize undesired mice or worse, kill day-old pups by slicing their heads off, but we have no choice. People should take some comfort in the fact that animal research facilities have strict guideline about performing animal experiments and always keep the animals' interests at heart. PETA, ALF and other animal rights groups are not educated enough in this field and have no problems attacking facilities and researchers. It's a bit scary at times working in the facility because anything can happen.

 

[constructor]

Well said. After graduation, I continued my undergraduate research and became a full-time researcher and manager of the transgenic mouse colonies. If there was another way to conduct research, I would do it in a heartbeat but I do not want to be in the way of a potential cure. It's sad to euthanize undesired mice or worse, kill day-old pups by slicing their heads off, but we have no choice. People should take some comfort in the fact that animal research facilities have strict guideline about performing animal experiments and always keep the animals' interests at heart. PETA, ALF and other animal rights groups are not educated enough in this field and have no problems attacking facilities and researchers. It's a bit scary at times working in the facility because anything can happen.

don't say other people are not educated enough. just say that they have a different view from yours and move on.