guylewis

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seems odd...I know Western and KCUMB had about 4-6k applicants each just this year (as of the time when I interviewed, so that number has likely gone up). i find it odd that those schools would have about 10k out of the 16k total applications. anyone wanna give their input on this?
 
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Well to answer that I know applicants apply more than 1 school thus thats why they have written: Designations 137,542.

But i still think 16,000 is pretty low for actual applicants
 

touchpause13

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Hm. I would have guessed higher as well. How many total spots are there? Like 5000?
 

touchpause13

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seems odd...I know Western and KCUMB had about 4-6k applicants each just this year (as of the time when I interviewed, so that number has likely gone up). i find it odd that those schools would have about 10k out of the 16k total applications. anyone wanna give their input on this?
Well I'm sure there is a great deal of overlap between students who apply to KCUMB and students who apply to western. It's not like those 4k ONLY applied to western
 
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Yeah there is, thats why it says total designations is 137,542*.(*The maximum number of schools an applicant can apply to is 32)
 
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guylewis

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Well I'm sure there is a great deal of overlap between students who apply to KCUMB and students who apply to western. It's not like those 4k ONLY applied to western
good call! my brain stopped smart making this morning
 
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I dont know 16,000 applicants just seems low. considered theres about 150 spots per school thats about ~ 7,000. So ~50% get it?
 

cabinbuilder

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I dont know 16,000 applicants just seems low. considered theres about 150 spots per school thats about ~ 7,000. So ~50% get it?
How does 50% of 16,000 = 150??
 

guylewis

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MD schools are roughly the same, around 40% get in if I'm not mistaken. the way to think of it isn't that 50% of people who apply get accepted somewhere, but rather that 50% of people who apply don't get accepted ANYWHERE
 
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Cabinbuilder if you read what I was saying...

150 seats per school. 150 seats x 29 D.O school = 4,300 Seats.

16k applicants. so about 33%-40%
 
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cabinbuilder

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Cabinbuilder if you read what I was saying...

150 seats per school. 150 seats x 29 D.O school = 4,300 Seats.

16k applicants. so about 33%
No need to be snide. Just trying to follow the math, wasn't making sense to me.
 

cliquesh

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Cabinbuilder if you read what I was saying...

150 seats per school. 150 seats x 29 D.O school = 4,300 Seats.

16k applicants. so about 33%
In the document it says, "16,454 applicants for 5,577 COCA-approved seats in Fall 2013," which turns out to be 33.8%. Good estimation. There's also probably a decent amount who drop their DO application once they get accepted to a MD program or for other reasons, so the actually percentage is probably higher.

On a side note, when I graduated just last year, there were 4913 graduates. There will be 13% more gradutes in the class of 2017. That's just silly.
 
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guylewis

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In the document it says, "16,454 applicants for 5,577 COCA-approved seats in Fall 2013," which turns out to be 33.8%. Good estimation. There's also probably a decent amount who drop their DO application once they get accepted to a MD program or for other reasons, so the actually percentage is probably higher.

On a side note, when I graduated just last year, there were 4913 graduates. There will be 13% more gradutes in the class of 2017. That's just silly.
I see it as the rise of osteopathic medicine in America. soon no one will be asking the question: What's a DO?

sure there is a cost to this rise, such as controversial schools, but with a looming physician shortage, a big upcoming spate of physicians retiring and a dire need for primary care physicians, that extra 17% barely even covers the gap. Let's be happy to that we are becoming osteopathic physicians at this time. we are no longer considered cultists, we have a curriculum that is equal to MDs (if not, more when adding in OMM), and applicants are actively seeking out DO schools for their medical education.
 

Ibn Alnafis MD

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In the document it says, "16,454 applicants for 5,577 COCA-approved seats in Fall 2013," which turns out to be 33.8%. Good estimation. There's also probably a decent amount who drop their DO application once they get accepted to a MD program or for other reasons, so the actually percentage is probably higher.

On a side note, when I graduated just last year, there were 4913 graduates. There will be 13% more gradutes in the class of 2017. That's just silly.
You think 13% increase is bad?

Next fall the total number of first-year enrollment will be about 6800. If we assume 6120 of those graduate (assuming a 10% attrition over 4 years), that's a 25% increase between your graduating class and my graduating class.
 

cliquesh

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I see it as the fall of the profession. There are only a finite number of quality education sites for clinical rotations and post graduate training, and, in my opinion, we have utilized most, if not all, of them. Consequently, we will soon be creating an army of poorly trained physicians. People will notice and I think all of the progress the DO profession has made in the last 15 years will be lost. Moreover, if this over expansion continues, the competition for ANY residency spot will be ridiculous in the near future. It saddens me that the osteopathic profession is killing itself.

Maybe you're right, though...maybe it's a good thing.
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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I see it as the fall of the profession. There are only a finite number of quality education sites for clinical rotations and post graduate training, and, in my opinion, we have utilized most, if not all, of them. Consequently, we will soon be creating an army of poorly trained physicians. People will notice and I think all of the progress the DO profession has made in the last 15 years will be lost. Moreover, if this over expansion continues, the competition for ANY residency spot will be ridiculous in the near future. It saddens me that the osteopathic profession is killing itself.

Maybe you're right, though...maybe it's a good thing.
Too bad your words fall short of the ears of COCA and the AOA. And it's unfortunate that it is unlikely that anyone or anything will step up and try to fix the problem until it's bad enough for there to be outcry.
 

cliquesh

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You think 13% increase is bad?

Next fall the total number of first-year enrollment will be about 6800. If we assume 6120 of those graduate (assuming a 10% attrition over 4 years), that's a 25% increase between your graduating class and my graduating class.
I hope your numbers are incorrect.
 

Ibn Alnafis MD

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I hope your numbers are incorrect.
They are not. This year, a little over 6400 started their medical education at DO schools. Next year, Touro Middletown is adding another 135 students to the pool, Liberty's first class size of 160 and one or two other schools (can't remember which) will be expanding their class size. In total, there will be over 6800 OMS-1 in Fall of 2014.
 

GUH

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Funny how the raw numbers are also increasing rapidly for the MD programs but you don't hear nearly as much whining and moaning on their forums as you do on ours.

It makes one suspect that a lot of the complaining has more to do with dislike of the AOA and/or COCA than it does with any actual issues.
 

Ibn Alnafis MD

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Funny how the raw numbers are also increasing rapidly for the MD programs but you don't hear nearly as much whining and moaning on their forums as you do on ours.

It makes one suspect that a lot of the complaining has more to do with dislike of the AOA and/or COCA than it does with any actual issues.
Do you have source? I know that MD schools are expanding too, but haven't been able to find a source that show the actual numbers.
 

Ibn Alnafis MD

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On the positive side, however, the number of AOA pgy-1 residency positions (excluding the Transitional Rotation thing), has grown by 28% over the last five years. If this trend continues, I don't see a problem with a "controlled" expansion of DO schools.

source: https://natmatch.com/aoairp/aboutstats.html
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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Funny how the raw numbers are also increasing rapidly for the MD programs but you don't hear nearly as much whining and moaning on their forums as you do on ours.

It makes one suspect that a lot of the complaining has more to do with dislike of the AOA and/or COCA than it does with any actual issues.
There's a difference between a MD school with millions in public funding, with its own hospital, with the capacity to expand said hospital or etc and a stand alone college that relies entirely on affiliated organizations and has 1/100th of the funding.
MD schools can expand because they have the facilities, the capacity, and the LCME to quickly swoop in and hammer them in the head if they err with the treatment and education of their students.
So yes, some part of it is a dislike of COCA and AOA. But if they acted the same way about our training and our post-graduate prospectives like the LCME and ACGME there would be no debate or issue.
 

cliquesh

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The class of 2009 had 15638 grads and the class of 2013 had 17487 grads, which is an 11% increase. During the same period, DO schools increased 25% from 3724 grads in 2009 to 4913 in 2013.
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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On the positive side, however, the number of AOA pgy-1 residency positions (excluding the Transitional Rotation thing), has grown by 28% over the last five years. If this trend continues, I don't see a problem with a "controlled" expansion of DO schools.

source: https://natmatch.com/aoairp/aboutstats.html
They have also seemingly invested in non pcp residencies which is good. But again, quality control here is huge. We need to avoid anymore LUCOMs ( Albeit I'm pretty sure it'll close within 10 years; too few people will apply, too few professors will want to be there, board scores and stats will be too bad).
 
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Ibn Alnafis MD

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[quote="serenade, post: 14719418, member: 294047"]They have also seemingly invested in non pcp residencies which is good. But again, quality control here is huge. We need to avoid anymore LUCOMs ( Albeit I'm pretty sure it'll close within 10 years; too few people will apply, too few professors will want to be there, board scores and stats will be too bad).[/quote]

Yes. What I liked more was seeing that the increase in number was for true residency positions, not in the Transitional year. In fact, the number of Transitional positions fell from 643 in 2009 to 608 in 2013. In my opinion, that's another good thing.
 

GUH

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Do you have source? I know that MD schools are expanding too, but haven't been able to find a source that show the actual numbers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States
Indicates 9 completely new US MD schools in the past 5 years alone. You can also see there are far more new MD schools planned than DO schools.

OMG THEY ARE BUILDING NEW SCHOOLS CLEARLY THE SKY IS FALLING AND IT'S THE END OF THE MD PROFESSION!!!!!1!!

There's a difference between a MD school with millions in public funding, with its own hospital, with the capacity to expand said hospital or etc and a stand alone college that relies entirely on affiliated organizations and has 1/100th of the funding.
MD schools can expand because they have the facilities, the capacity, and the LCME to quickly swoop in and hammer them in the head if they err with the treatment and education of their students.
So yes, some part of it is a dislike of COCA and AOA. But if they acted the same way about our training and our post-graduate prospectives like the LCME and ACGME there would be no debate or issue.
There are plenty of completely new MD schools being founded. Schools that do not have "millions in public funding", as you put it.
 
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Drrrrrr. Celty

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States
Indicates 9 completely new US MD schools in the past 5 years alone. You can also see there are far more new MD schools planned than DO schools.

OMG THEY ARE BUILDING NEW SCHOOLS CLEARLY THE SKY IS FALLING AND IT'S THE END OF THE MD PROFESSION!!!!!1!!


There are plenty of completely new MD schools being founded. Schools which do not have "millions in public funding", as you put it.
Do you know any MD schools that would fit the bill of not having huge endowments and recently coming out or came out? The only one I can really off the top of my head remember is TCMC and that was produced by a state commission that pushed millions into it.
 

Dreamstoo

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Just like the general population, I suspect there are a LOT of pre-meds who are ignorant of the osteopathic profession, or refuse to consider it (at least before their first app cycle).
This is so true.
My pre med advisor was surprised that I was OK with applying to DOs. He said he has had students with my stats saying they will only go to MDs when in reality they only have a chance at low-tier schools. Even then the chances are slim. I'm realistic and I know at this point getting into a DO is far more likely for me than a MD.

I do know of students who apply to DO as backups. Someone I know applied this year with a 3.5/36 to about 5 DOs. He got into a few MDs already so I doubt he's going in that direction.
 
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GUH

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Do you know any MD schools that would fit the bill of not having huge endowments and recently coming out or came out? The only one I can really off the top of my head remember is TCMC and that was produced by a state commission that pushed millions into it.
Netter is a private school (anyone heard of Quinnipiac University?) as is Hofstra, not to mention the several non brand-name MD schools planned. Somehow in spite of the fact that these universities are sub-Ivy league and are not affiliated with huge public university systems and undergraduate colleges, they will be able to produce competent physicians.
As an aside, most DO programs have an endowment as well.
 

edgerock24

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This is so true.
My pre med advisor was surprised that I was OK with applying to DOs. He said he has had students with my stats saying they will only go to MDs when in reality they only have a chance at low-tier schools. Even then the chances are slim. I'm realistic and I know at this point getting into a DO is far more likely for me than a MD.

I do know of students who apply to DO as backups. Someone I know applied this year with a 3.5/36 to about 5 DOs. He got into a few MDs already so I doubt he's going in that direction.
Almost every post you make, you end up talking about yourself. Nobody cares. Talk about the topic at hand or the OP's situation.
 

wjs010

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To all who think this is the downfall of DO: is it possible that there will just become more residencies open in the near future? How do we know that this couldn't happen?
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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Netter is a private school (anyone heard of Quinnipiac University?) as is Hofstra, not to mention the several non brand-name MD schools planned. Somehow in spite of the fact that these universities are sub-Ivy league and are not affiliated with huge public university systems and undergraduate colleges, they will be able to produce competent physicians.
As an aside, most DO programs have an endowment as well.
Hofstra is a huge school.
You got me with Quinnipiac. It seems like a really random place to get an MD program tbh.
 

guylewis

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AOA is adding more residency spots and the ACA increases funding to open more primary care residencies. still, there needs to be more done to address this as the number of students graduating eventually becomes greater than the number of residency spots available. but for the next ten years you will be able to match to a residency. the people that go unmatched go so by choice, they probably applied only to extremely competitive residencies and likely didn't have the scores/recommendations/interview skills to land them those spots, and they probably refused to scramble for some of the leftover spots because they considered it beneath them. there were a couple thousand unfilled spots this last match.

the one benefit (some see this as a downfall and I can see their point), is that the AOA has its own residency spots that are only for DOs.
To all who think this is the downfall of DO: is it possible that there will just become more residencies open in the near future? How do we know that this couldn't happen?
 

user3

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Funny how the raw numbers are also increasing rapidly for the MD programs but you don't hear nearly as much whining and moaning on their forums as you do on ours.

It makes one suspect that a lot of the complaining has more to do with dislike of the AOA and/or COCA than it does with any actual issues.
MD schools appear to be slowing down with expansion. Other than WMU (50 students), there are no new schools slated to open at this time (although some schools will be expanding their class sizes). All of the schools besides WMU with preliminary accreditation have already enrolled their first classes.

source: http://www.lcme.org/directory.htm#pre-accredited-programs

The 4 applicant schools may or may not progress to preliminary accreditation. I suspect that only the UTexas one will, if any.
 

user3

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I was looking at the entering class of 2013 profile:

http://www.aacom.org/data/applicantsmatriculants/Documents/2013-App-Report.pdf

It says 16,000 applications. I always figured there would be a lot more people applying to osteopathic schools?
Those 16,454 applicants are competing for 6,219 positions (38%). The data does not include TCOM, which uses a separate application service. The average GPA/MCAT for applicants is 3.44/3.34/26.

But I have no idea how 3.4/24 applicants are able to get multiple interviews, for example, when over half of those 16K have 3.3/26+ and there are only 6K seats. An AVERAGE applicant to an allopathic school (~3.5/28) is lucky to land a single interview, let alone someone below the applicant average. Yet somehow an average applicant to a DO school can quite easily get in...
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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Those 16,454 applicants are competing for 6,219 positions (38%). The data does not include TCOM, which uses a separate application service. The average GPA/MCAT for applicants is 3.44/3.34/26.

But I have no idea how 3.4/24 applicants are able to get multiple interviews, for example, when over half of those 16K have 3.3/26+ and there are only 6K seats. An AVERAGE applicant to an allopathic school (~3.5/28) is lucky to land a single interview, let alone someone below the applicant average. Yet somehow an average applicant to a DO school can quite easily get in...
Because they don't, the average rejected applicant is still 3.4/24.4. That's what we've been saying for a long time now, just because some people get in doesn't mean it is everyone and in fact there may be a degree of inflation when it comes to SDN applicants.
 

wjs010

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Because they don't, the average rejected applicant is still 3.4/24.4. That's what we've been saying for a long time now, just because some people get in doesn't mean it is everyone and in fact there may be a degree of inflation when it comes to SDN applicants.
This. I had a higher gpa / lower mcat. I had to do everything right ( early) in order to get an ii. Then I nailed the interview. I am very fortunate to have gotten in without having to buckle down and retake mcat.
 

VisualEvolution

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Those 16,454 applicants are competing for 6,219 positions (38%). The data does not include TCOM, which uses a separate application service. The average GPA/MCAT for applicants is 3.44/3.34/26.

But I have no idea how 3.4/24 applicants are able to get multiple interviews, for example, when over half of those 16K have 3.3/26+ and there are only 6K seats. An AVERAGE applicant to an allopathic school (~3.5/28) is lucky to land a single interview, let alone someone below the applicant average. Yet somehow an average applicant to a DO school can quite easily get in...
To explain the 38% a little better: the 6,219 are the number of applicants that matriculate, not accepted. Out of the 16,454, you may have 4,000 that are MD candidates and used DO school as back ups. I think that's why you have such a low percentage getting in, and you hear stories of people with sub par stats getting multiple interviews. Correct me if my thinking is wrong, but I think the fact that a lot of students back out of DO programs after they get an MD acceptance creates these funky figures that we are used to seeing.
 

baboxxyun

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Those 16,454 applicants are competing for 6,219 positions (38%). The data does not include TCOM, which uses a separate application service. The average GPA/MCAT for applicants is 3.44/3.34/26.

But I have no idea how 3.4/24 applicants are able to get multiple interviews, for example, when over half of those 16K have 3.3/26+ and there are only 6K seats. An AVERAGE applicant to an allopathic school (~3.5/28) is lucky to land a single interview, let alone someone below the applicant average. Yet somehow an average applicant to a DO school can quite easily get in...
Keep in mind that the average doesn't mean the majority of applicants happen to have these numbers. It's the AVERAGE, meaning there must be numbers below AND above this.
For MD schools, students with particularly high stats would generally not apply DO. (ie students with 3.8/35+). Thus, the statistical numbers might be skewed towards the higher end of the spectrum. Which makes it seem like the average MD applicant is more "unlikely" to be accepted as opposed to the average DO student.
 

darklabel

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MD schools appear to be slowing down with expansion. Other than WMU (50 students), there are no new schools slated to open at this time (although some schools will be expanding their class sizes). All of the schools besides WMU with preliminary accreditation have already enrolled their first classes.

source: http://www.lcme.org/directory.htm#pre-accredited-programs

The 4 applicant schools may or may not progress to preliminary accreditation. I suspect that only the UTexas one will, if any.
I agree, I really doubt Texas will get 4 brand new medical schools when they already have 9 and have to accept 90% in state. I also have heard about the one in Tampa, FL for some time now, but they haven't really gone anywhere with it.
 

user3

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To explain the 38% a little better: the 6,219 are the number of applicants that matriculate, not accepted. Out of the 16,454, you may have 4,000 that are MD candidates and used DO school as back ups. I think that's why you have such a low percentage getting in, and you hear stories of people with sub par stats getting multiple interviews. Correct me if my thinking is wrong, but I think the fact that a lot of students back out of DO programs after they get an MD acceptance creates these funky figures that we are used to seeing.
14,035/16,454 actually have an MCAT score. 18.5% of those 14K have a 30+ MCAT, and 33% of the 16K have a 3.6+ GPA. If only 2,600 people have 30+ MCAT and only 5,000 people have 3.6+ GPA, probably < 1,000 have both. And even then, chances of MD acceptance is only ~70-75%. And even among those accepted MD, a handful (5-10%) will choose DO anyway.

My point? I believe the applicants who will be getting into MD make up a pretty low % of the pool.
 
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NontradCA

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States
Indicates 9 completely new US MD schools in the past 5 years alone. You can also see there are far more new MD schools planned than DO schools.

OMG THEY ARE BUILDING NEW SCHOOLS CLEARLY THE SKY IS FALLING AND IT'S THE END OF THE MD PROFESSION!!!!!1!!


There are plenty of completely new MD schools being founded. Schools that do not have "millions in public funding", as you put it.
The big difference is that MDs will be unaffected in the match and DOs will get squeezed out. Use some common sense.
 

VisualEvolution

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14,035/16,454 actually have an MCAT score. 18.5% of those 14K have a 30+ MCAT, and 33% of the 16K have a 3.6+ GPA. If only 2,600 people have 30+ MCAT and only 5,000 people have 3.6+ GPA, probably < 1,000 have both. And even then, chances of MD acceptance is only ~70-75%. And even among those accepted MD, a handful (5-10%) will choose DO anyway.

My point? I believe the applicants who will be getting into MD make up a pretty low % of the pool.
I see what you're saying but you're also forgetting that there's also a strong correlation between high MCAT and high GPA, so that 1,000 number seems a little too conservative. 2,000 seems more reasonable and there you have 10-15% of applicants.
 

medickdb

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MD schools appear to be slowing down with expansion. Other than WMU (50 students), there are no new schools slated to open at this time (although some schools will be expanding their class sizes). All of the schools besides WMU with preliminary accreditation have already enrolled their first classes.

source: http://www.lcme.org/directory.htm#pre-accredited-programs

The 4 applicant schools may or may not progress to preliminary accreditation. I suspect that only the UTexas one will, if any.
It's kind of funny that there's a proposed medical school in Martinsville, Virginia. There's really nothing there except for a NASCAR short track and maybe a Taco Bell.
 

user3

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It's kind of funny that there's a proposed medical school in Martinsville, Virginia. There's really nothing there except for a NASCAR short track and maybe a Taco Bell.
I dont know what it is with Virginia and medical schools lately... UVa, VCU, EVMS, VCOM, VTC, LUCOM, and now Kings College and College of Henricopolis? I would be shocked if LCME green lighted these.

FWIW: 20,055 matriculants at MD and 6,449 matriculants at DO schools for Fall 2013.

20,432 MD matriculants projected Fall 2014, and 6,800 or so for DO.