How many people good with verbal are good at math?

[thatfeelwhen79]

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[Rhino1000]

They say Goethe struggled with math. Goethe is considered to be exceptionally brilliant (he is a giant in the field of literature especially). I searched for this rumor on the internet, and found this discussion: http://www.eoht.info/thread/3761432/Goethe, Math & universal Genius

And to give you a hint at what the conversation breaks down into, I quote in exact words: "Einstein's brain is larger than Goethe's!" "Noooooo, Goethe is by far the smarter of the two."

I found the discussion quite humorous.

 

[Rhino1000]

I'm finding the anti-correlation fits me pretty well. I took differential equations, physics ii (calc-based, with lab), calc iii and world history: origins to present (for a pretty math-heavy semester), ended with a 4.0 without too much worry. My verbal scores are usually around 9-10, yet I've been scoring consistently in the range of 13-15 on the PS sections of MCAT practice exams. Nonetheless, I don't think that if everyone replied, that you would find a generally consistent sample. I believe that math aptitude correlates positively, and not negatively, with verbal skill, because they are both based more or less on logic and intuition, speed of processing (in this case), working memory, etc. and also because personal experience tells me so.

 

[updown]

The inverse relationship is pretty much true for everyone I know, myself included. @Rhino1000 I personally feel VR is much more heavily based on intuition than logic, whereas intuition in math leads to inconsistencies. Also not so sure that memory is relevant to a large extent for mathematics. I agree it's pretty difficult to switch over from the left brain in PS to the right brain in VR. I wonder if there's a correlation between left-handedness and strength in VR...

 

[Uafl112]

for those people breaking 11s on verbal, how do you usually do in math courses in undergrad? based on everyone I know, there's a STRONG anti-correlation between mathematical aptitude and mcat verbal scores. I'm starting to think they use very different areas of the brain or work by different mechanisms.

lmao i remember when I started getting paranoid about the verbal section and started coming up with these ideas too. You might be right, but it doesn't define how you well you can do on the section. I've always been good at the mathematical sections on standardized tests, but I managed to bring up my VR to a pretty good score on the MCAT

 

[el_duderino]

I got a 13 verbal and won a variety of math competitions through high school.

 

[TheAnonymous]

to @thatfeelwhen79 , it's definitely a YES based on my self and my 6-7 other friends studying for the MCAT. I don't think it's math per se but sciences in general.
I think in general students who are "good" at sciences tend to take more science courses (than let's say a history major) and get used to that "science mindset" which not only doesn't help but significantly reduces your performance on VR... I don't think it's related to brain structures haha (that was kind of funny) but just based on habits. As @Uafl112 said, you can still bring up your VR and break old habits but not a lot of people are going to be able to do that takes practice + patience + smartness lol

 

[Jason12]

I got a 13 verbal and won a variety of math competitions through high school.

same I won a lot math competitions, but with the difference that I got 4 on verbal lol

 

[Rhino1000]

The inverse relationship is pretty much true for everyone I know, myself included. @Rhino1000 I personally feel VR is much more heavily based on intuition than logic, whereas intuition in math leads to inconsistencies. Also not so sure that memory is relevant to a large extent for mathematics. I agree it's pretty difficult to switch over from the left brain in PS to the right brain in VR. I wonder if there's a correlation between left-handedness and strength in VR...

I looked up "math memory" on google, and here is what I found. Note that I said working memory, not simply memory. Working memory is how many things you can hold in your cognition at once without losing your train of thought. For example, adding long 7 digit numbers in your head might be working memory-heavy. Also, this is generalizable to reading in a similar manner, when reading a very long and complex sentence, following what the author is saying without losing the logic behind his train of thought.
http://www.andrews.edu/sed/gpc/faculty-research/montagano-research/working_memory_math.pdf

 

[Rhino1000]

Intuition can be found in mathematics not in using a sort of "fuzzy logic" trying to decide which answer choice might agree with an author (although for the MCAT, you might be using a sort of intuition to determine which answer seems to be right based off of what you know of the math behind a process), but in actually understanding mathematical formulas. For example, you might realize that Stoke's theorem, which says that the double integral of the curl of F dotted with dS and is equal to the single integral of F dotted with dr (where r is the vector describing a curve traveling in a pathway along the outer edge of a "crumpled up piece of paper" shape), is true because the double integral acts in a way to sum all of the curl within the area of the three dimensional shape, thus providing the same net result as the integral of F dotted with dr. But if you don't have a sort of intuitive understanding of the calculus, you might just mindlessly memorize the formula for the test. If you took calculus, this might be a better example than otherwise.

Some people from my physics class memorized equations for every single test, and didn't understand any of it. It's the intuition behind the mathematics that makes it conceptual.

 

[Rhino1000]

to @thatfeelwhen79 , it's definitely a YES based on my self and my 6-7 other friends studying for the MCAT. I don't think it's math per se but sciences in general.
I think in general students who are "good" at sciences tend to take more science courses (than let's say a history major) and get used to that "science mindset" which not only doesn't help but significantly reduces your performance on VR... I don't think it's related to brain structures haha (that was kind of funny) but just based on habits. As @Uafl112 said, you can still bring up your VR and break old habits but not a lot of people are going to be able to do that takes practice + patients + smartness lol

You're ESL though, so that may have a fair effect on your score.

Edit: I just realized I said "your" instead of "you're." Oops.

 

[thatfeelwhen79]

i finished the entire calculus series, intro algebra, real and complex analysis, ordinary differential equations, discrete math ofc. Never got below 94% in any of these courses, with the majority of the computational courses around 99-100%. I never got above 6 in verbal, usually getting 5s. Wtf. I'm an immigrant but i came here when I was 10 (i'm 20 now), so i don't know if that's having any effect... but probably not. I'm just a slow reader when it comes to complex material

 

[Rhino1000]

i finished the entire calculus series, intro algebra, real and complex analysis, ordinary differential equations, discrete math ofc. Never got below 94% in any of these courses, with the majority of the computational courses around 99-100%. I never got above 6 in verbal, usually getting 5s. Wtf. I'm an immigrant but i came here when I was 10 (i'm 20 now), so i don't know if that's having any effect... but probably not. I'm just a slow reader when it comes to complex material

Good job, I hear analysis is especially challenging. I think while it's possible that you may not be exceptionally bright when it comes to verbal (even if you had lived in America your whole life, you might not score exceptionally on MCAT verbal), but I'm sure you'd do a bit better on verbal if you had lived here all of your life. If you are an avid reader of English-language books, and have been for a long time though, you'd think that you'd be doing better than you are; most people aren't, so I am guess you aren't either. The years that I read the most were from 7 to 10ish, I think. However, with those kinds of scores in your math classes, that still seems like a sort of discrepancy.

 

[Uafl112]

Verbal is tricky and its different for every person. I think it ultimately comes down to whatever strategy helps you understand the passage the most and lets you finish the fastest. That being said, its a ***** to find the right strategy

 

[TheAnonymous]

Verbal is tricky and its different for every person. I think it ultimately comes down to whatever strategy helps you understand the passage the most and lets you finish the fastest. That being said, its a ***** to find the right strategy

haha this ^

 

[golfman7]

Didn't take math in college, but physics came relatively easy to me and I've always been good at using math in problem solving. Verbal was a big struggle for me because I'm not used to interpreting abstract readings. So yea, the correlation fits for me at least.

 

[TBRBiosadist]

uhh im great at verbal and was the top math student in my highschool and was able to breeze through advanced stats and calc 2 in college

 

[WesternRedCedar]

Unfounded.

I and many of my friends are very strong at math (engineering majors) with many high level math and physics courses. I scored 11 on Verbal, and many of my math friends scored high as well.

A lot of verbal is logic based, so having a real understanding of math helps a lot.

 

[WesternRedCedar]

to @thatfeelwhen79 , it's definitely a YES based on my self and my 6-7 other friends studying for the MCAT. I don't think it's math per se but sciences in general.
I think in general students who are "good" at sciences tend to take more science courses (than let's say a history major) and get used to that "science mindset" which not only doesn't help but significantly reduces your performance on VR... I don't think it's related to brain structures haha (that was kind of funny) but just based on habits. As @Uafl112 said, you can still bring up your VR and break old habits but not a lot of people are going to be able to do that takes practice + patients + smartness lol

I took no literature courses or anything in the humanities aside from two intro english courses and psychology. Being good at math for myself and many of my peers had no affect on verbal.

Also getting good grades in lower level math courses proves nothing, much of it is practice-based and not actual intellect or aptitude in the mathematics. Unless you are doing very little practice problems and intuitively deriving your way to 99% scores - then it isn't a great argument.

 

[WesternRedCedar]

People will come up with some crazy theories to rationalize that they are bad at something.....

 

[Rhino1000]

People will come up with some crazy theories to rationalize that they are bad at something.....

Or to justify being bad at something.

 

[TheAnonymous]

I took no literature courses or anything in the humanities aside from two intro english courses and psychology. Being good at math for myself and many of my peers had no affect on verbal.

Also getting good grades in lower level math courses proves nothing, much of it is practice-based and not actual intellect or aptitude in the mathematics. Unless you are doing very little practice problems and intuitively deriving your way to 99% scores - then it isn't a great argument.

obviously what I said does not apply to every single person, so the fact that you are good at both doesn't prove or disprove my point. There are people who are good at everything.

would you agree that in general, science students (physics/chem/bio etc) tend to do worst in VR compared to, let's say students majoring in humanities or philosophy? would you agree that in general typical premeds don't take many humanities courses? it's easy to connect the dots here.

Again, this is just my personal opinion

 

[TheAnonymous]

umm, not sure what you guys are implying here cause i don't see anyone here justifying their poor performance? as you mentioned most people can improve in VR with practice, we were referring more to their baseline

 

[Rhino1000]

obviously what I said does not apply to every single person, so the fact that you are good at both doesn't prove or disprove my point. There are people who are good at everything.

would you agree that in general, science students (physics/chem/bio etc) tend to do worst in VR compared to, let's say students majoring in humanities or philosophy? would you agree that in general typical premeds don't take many humanities courses? it's easy to connect the dots here.

Again, this is just my personal opinion

Majoring in a field isn't equivalent to having a natural aptitude for that field. So yes, even though it may be true that people who major in humanities are more likely to do well on verbal, it is largely or partially because of their focused studies in that field; another factor is that they are more likely to choose that field if they are more talented in that field (but not necessarily to an extent that would hint at inferior ability in the other field); the two factors would magnify the discrepancy. Note that the original post seems to emphasize aptitudes, and whether aptitudes of one type lead to lesser ability in the other.

Anyone who doubts that their is a positive correlation between verbal and mathematical aptitude should look up "Spearman's g factor".