how many post-bacc classes are enough?

[coredump]

hey guys,

cool...a new forum just for us oddballs. I just had a question regarding post-bacc classes. I opted not to take a formal post-bacc program because I had taken many (not all) pre-reqs as an undergrad. Before I could finish the pre-med track, I bailed out and changed majors. I only had orgo I & II left to finish.

As a post-bacc, I have taken both Orgo I & II, Biochem, Genetics, and Cell Bio (altogether ~20 hours). I did very well in these courses. But, my question is ... is it enough hours to show adcoms that I can handle the life sciences? Most formal post-bacc programs put you through about 30-40 hours of work. Should I be taking more classes if I did well in 20 hours of post-bacc work (while working full-time & volunteering)??

thanks in advance!

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[SonGoku]

I have no idea. I've been given so many different answers regarding this, so I've just decided to play it safe. I've completed 32 credits in the past year, worked part-time, volunteered, etc, etc...but I will be taking classes this coming fall as well (12 credits). I really don't want to, but if I don't have any interviews by december, at least I can send in updated transcripts to show that I am still working hard and pulling in the good grades.

 

[Persistence101]

Originally posted by SonGoku
I have no idea. I've been given so many different answers regarding this, so I've just decided to play it safe. I've completed 32 credits in the past year, worked part-time, volunteered, etc, etc...but I will be taking classes this coming fall as well (12 credits). I really don't want to, but if I don't have any interviews by december, at least I can send in updated transcripts to show that I am still working hard and pulling in the good grades.

When you say "credits" are you referring to units or semester hours?

 

[SonGoku]

semester hours i think...our school doesn't use units

 

[arktec]

coredump -- I think the classes you have taken are enough. Those are all pretty demanding classes and should show any adcom that you can hang with the demanding med school curriculum, assuming your grades were good. The fact that you were working full-time will look excellent on your application.

I only did 20 hours of post-bacc on my own (not in a formal program), and did well...I didn't take anything beyond the bare minimum requirements and it was not an issue in any of my interviews. Best of Luck...

 

[coredump]

thanks for the replies! I really hope the adcoms take notice of the post-bacc work; I dug myself quite a hole with my undergrad GPA and really need to show them I can hack med school.

SonGoku - wow, 32+ hours of solid work should be enough. I mean, it only takes ~40 hours to get your bachelors in a particular major.

arktec - thanks for the encouragement. From other posts, it looks like we have similar stats; I'm hoping I fair as well as you did this cycle.

 

[mosfet]

I am in the boat. I did my bachelors in elec. engineering from georgia tech, graduated last december. just got done with my bio I&II, Org I&II, biochem in an informal post-bacc. Got A's in all of them. I already had phys and chem from my undergrad. Do you guys think I have a chance with 3.23 cum gpa, 3.3 sci gpa and a 34 mcat? I have really good lor's and 60 hours of volunteering. Oh BTW, I am from florida. I really don't know what to think about my gpa.

Thanks

 

[harrypotter]

coredump: has it been awhile since you finished your undergrad because i was wondering how did you study for the mcats?

i finished a lot of the prereqs when i was in undergrad more than 7 years ago and am not sure how to study for my mcats when those classes were taken so long ago.

thanks in advance!
al

 

[LukeWhite]

A few years ago the dean of Michigan State told me that they would look at postbac work as an entirely "new" science GPA with sixteen credits of work, so I imagine that, at least at some schools, is the magic number.

 

[coredump]

harrypotter,

It's been about 6 years since I've taken undergrad pre-med courses. I did however just finish the above post-bacc courses (took about 1.5 years). Taking the post-bacc courses definitely did help in preparation for the MCAT.

Working full-time and studying for the MCAT was definitely a challenge. For about 4 months, my routine consisted solely of working, studying, and sleeping. If you're starting out on this path, I would definitely recommend a prep course (or, the books and test material if you can get a hold of them). Supplement the material in the prep material with textbooks and outside resources. Especially since you haven't taken courses in a while, the prep course will help you diagnose your weak areas. Some people might say prep courses are unnecessary, but I found it helpful (took Kaplan). I think the reason why my MCAT was score suffered was because I didn't gauge my weaknesses properly. I spent a LOT of my precious study time just re-learning all of my undergad pre-med classes (Chem and Physics).

If you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me!

mosfet - I think adcoms will probably take into consideration you did EE - not exactly a walk in the park. A 34 is a great score on the MCAT and will probably offset most of the damage done by the GPA. You might wanna schedule some time with an adcom at your local med school and see what they think. Although I've never done this myself, I've heard many med schools are willing to look at your app before you start applying.

 

[mosfet]

Coredump, thanks for the reply. That was very encouraging.

 

[mcataz]

Originally posted by coredump
hey guys,

cool...a new forum just for us oddballs. I just had a question regarding post-bacc classes. I opted not to take a formal post-bacc program because I had taken many (not all) pre-reqs as an undergrad. Before I could finish the pre-med track, I bailed out and changed majors. I only had orgo I & II left to finish.

As a post-bacc, I have taken both Orgo I & II, Biochem, Genetics, and Cell Bio (altogether ~20 hours). I did very well in these courses. But, my question is ... is it enough hours to show adcoms that I can handle the life sciences? Most formal post-bacc programs put you through about 30-40 hours of work. Should I be taking more classes if I did well in 20 hours of post-bacc work (while working full-time & volunteering)??

thanks in advance!

This really depends upon your situation. Are you the post-bacc student who is trying to raise his or her GPA, or are you the type that is trying to finish her pre-req's to apply to medical school?

If you are trying to raise your GPA and make up for a poor record, you need to take at least 1 years worth of classes (2 semesters or 3 quarters) of full time upper level science classes. And honestly, I recommend 2 years (4 semesters, 6 quarters) with a minimum GPA of 3.5.

However, if you had a strong GPA as say as a sociology major and you just needed the pre-req's to apply to medical school, you don't need to take additional classes to impress the committee. If you did well in your pre-req's, then don't torture yourself by taking upper-level science classes. Med schools always take the 3.5 GPA accounting majors who did well in his or her pre-reqs at a community college while working.

 

[mcataz]

Originally posted by lukealfredwhite
A few years ago the dean of Michigan State told me that they would look at postbac work as an entirely "new" science GPA with sixteen credits of work, so I imagine that, at least at some schools, is the magic number.

Most adcoms I have spoken with really want to see two years of consistent work. The adcom at the University of Oklahoma school of medicine told me that anyone can focus for one semester or two and do really well. It could just be a fluke. However, if that person wanted to really show evidence of a pattern of good studying skills, they would like to see two years of consistent work. The adcom at Loyola in Chicago said that a minimum of a 1.5 years would be needed. It really depends on the school but I doubt a semester of 16 credits of work would compensate for a low GPA in general.

 

[mcataz]

Originally posted by mosfet
I am in the boat. I did my bachelors in elec. engineering from georgia tech, graduated last december. just got done with my bio I&II, Org I&II, biochem in an informal post-bacc. Got A's in all of them. I already had phys and chem from my undergrad. Do you guys think I have a chance with 3.23 cum gpa, 3.3 sci gpa and a 34 mcat? I have really good lor's and 60 hours of volunteering. Oh BTW, I am from florida. I really don't know what to think about my gpa.

Thanks

I think you are in GREAT shape. They always elevate engineering GPA's by a point or two so 3.3 as an engineering major is seen as a 3.5 at some schools. And your grades in Org I and II in addition to biochem (3 of the most difficult pre-med classes) shows that you can handle the work. You are in good shape. Just work on your personal statement and see if you can get great letters of recommendation.

 

[LukeWhite]

re. the comment that 1.5-2 years are needed:

That may very well be true for Loyola. The adcom people I spoke to while applying there were not at all encouraging, and to be honest, rather aloof.

If you get a good 16-20 credits in, you'll be fine. My science GPA was 2.7 before postbac, 3.6 during postbac, and it was plenty for a variety of schools.

While you may in fact need to take more than a year's worth of courses, don't tie yourself into anything. There are many one-year postbac programs that are very well-respected, and some that will guarantee you admission to their associated school given a certain level of performance. A master's may be helpful if you're not sure you want to go into medicine, but as far as getting into med school goes, it's the Very Long Way Around.

 

[mcataz]

Originally posted by lukealfredwhite
re. the comment that 1.5-2 years are needed:

That may very well be true for Loyola. The adcom people I spoke to while applying there were not at all encouraging, and to be honest, rather aloof.

If you get a good 16-20 credits in, you'll be fine. My science GPA was 2.7 before postbac, 3.6 during postbac, and it was plenty for a variety of schools.

Can you name some of these schools. That's really encouraging news. I had no idea.

And I agree about the Masters being a waste of time. Whatever you do, don't get the dreaded MPH. It's almost an inside joke among adcoms these days. They don't offer the difficulty required to prove oneself to an admissions committee.

Thanks

 

[KirsteenB]

Hi there,

Why the negativity among adcoms re: the MPH? Which schools take this position?

Cheers,
Kirsteen

 

[mcataz]

Originally posted by KirsteenB
Hi there,

Why the negativity among adcoms re: the MPH? Which schools take this position?

Cheers,
Kirsteen

It's not that they frown upon an MPH but they prefer you explore other avenues. An MPH's curriculum doesn't involve a lot of intense classroom work that resembles a medical school curriculum. Therefore, if you are trying to compensate for a lower GPA, most adcoms I know recommend a pos-bacc or a Special Masters program. With these programs, students take a large course load of upper-level science courses such as Human Anatomy, Physiology, Genetics, etc.

THe MPH was sort of the old fall-back plan. These post-bacc programs are relatively new as the demand for health professions increased in the 90's. So I'm not sure how aware students are of these one year post-baccs and Special Masters degree programs.

Like someone already said, if you want to attend medical school, there are a better options than the MPH route. I would only get a Masters program if you are uncertain about attending medical school or you really love research. Otherwise, go the post-bacc route.

 

[KirsteenB]

Hi there,

Thanks for your response. I guess another alternative that would be sure to please is to do both, the post-bacc and the MPH!

Cheers,
Kirsteen

 

[LukeWhite]

Kirsteen,

Another reason some postbacs are looked more highly upon is that many postbacs simply run you through an MS1 curriculum. University of Miami's post-bac program, for example, has postbac students taking classes with MS1's. If you rank a certain level in the class and manage a ridiculously reasonable MCAT score (8 in every section) you're guaranteed admission to the next class.

mcataz--

I can't speak too thorougly as to all the schools that will accept 16 credits' worth since my main foci were Michigan and osteopathic schools. That's a pretty large set, though, and they were all very understanding of the low undergrad science GPA in light of the high postbac, even though the postbac didn't involve that many credits.

It's important to remember that most undergrad premed programs don't have THAT much science. Bio, Phys, Org, Chem, and two or three throw-in's, which puts lots of people at under 40 creds of science. 16-20 credits is essentially half again as much, then, which is why so many schools, I imagine, seem willing to look ati t as an entirely new GPA.

Weren't you headed to AZCOM at one point? I'm heading out there next week.

 

[mcataz]

Weren't you headed to AZCOM at one point? I'm heading out there next week. [/B]

I'm in AZCOM's post-bacc. I entered this program to start in the DO school. Although I'm doing really well in the program, I decided to apply to dental school intead. My true passion lies there. I'm going to finish the post-bacc and get a second bachelors degree. Anyway, you will love this school. It's awesome. If I had to go to medical school, I couldn't conceive going anywhere else.

 

[harrypotter]

coredump: thank you for the info... how did you do during your undergrad regarding your premed requirements?

where did you take your post bacc classes?

thanks again!
al

 

[daria]

My experiences and opinion, for what they're worth to those considering post-bacc and wondering how much bioscience stuff you need...

My undergrad - BS Computer Science, BA Psychology
My other career - 5 years as artificial intel system designer/applied researcher
Extracurriculars - lots of non-medically-related stuff in my inner city community, not much medical except shadowing Drs.

I'd had 1 semester Physic in undergrad, no other biosciences.

Did the Penn postbacc program and took 2 semesters intro to bio, 2 semesters of Orgo (+ lab), 1 semester of Biochem. Took 2 semesters of Gen Chem (+ labs) and 2nd semester Physics at Rutgers-Camden. I took just enough formal post-bacc classes to get Penn to write me the "covering letter" for my recommendations. I found the Penn classes to be not worth the $ (although the lab equipt was quite nice), and at the time I was there (2001-20. 02) the postbacc program had lost its director and was total freakin' (expensive) chaos. It has new co-directors now, so it might be better; the one I've met seems quite competent. I would have strongly recommended against paying the $ for it then, but it might be worth it now.

Anyway, I took the MCAT w/o taking a prep course and got a 30, and my science GPA was, I dunno, 3.6 or something. I started an MPH program which was worthless (not all are, but this one was) and my interviewers didn't even ask about it. I got into 3 allo and 1 osteo schools (applied to 7ish), but not the Ivy League or ivy league pretenders (Penn, Jeff).

So, my recommendations based on all that:
- I had minimal basic science classes -Bio, Gen Chem, Orgo, and 1st sem. Physics were all I had for the MCAT - would strongly recommend taking Biochem though. Otherwise that was fine for me. I may yet choke in MS1, though.
- MCAT prep courses - if you did well in those basic courses and are an organized studier who doesn't need to do the Ivy thing, I'd suggest saving your $. There are good review books out there, just go through them systematically.
- MPH - not worth much (for admissions purposes) if you're just taking basic classes; if you're involved in research (or maybe go to a school with a good name - e.g. Hopkins, BU, Columbia) , maybe it's different
- Postbacc programs - really the only thing I got out of mine was that covering letter and teh Penn name, and I don't have a clue how much difference it all made. What I KNOW got me far was a recommendation from a well-known local Dept. of Health/public health doc. (The sad truth is that big names/alumni names seem to mean lots.)

Hope this helps; I had all these questions when I started out, and didn't know about these forums at the time :-(

 

[coredump]

Originally posted by harrypotter
coredump: thank you for the info... how did you do during your undergrad regarding your premed requirements?

where did you take your post bacc classes?

thanks again!
al

I didn't do as well as I should have during undergrad. I walked away with a 3.0/4.0; a majority of the damage done by my engineering courses. Wanting to prove to adcoms (and myself) that I really could take the life sciences, I intentionally sought the more difficult undergrad courses. I took post-bacc classes at Loyola U. in Chicago (all except Biochem). If you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me! This is my first time applying, so can't really give any feedback if my formula works...