How many procedures do you average in a half day?

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In a 4 hour period. I average around 15- a mix of spine, joint, and a couple RFA's.

Just curious... trying to figure out if I'm slow, average, or fast compared to my fellow interventionalists

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In-office procedure room, not ASC
 
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15 is good.

I average 12-13. Usually 3-4 rfa, 3-4 mbb, 3-4 esi, 1-2 hip/SI
 
when you guys do a ton of RFA on the same day, are you running the probes through a quick autoclave process or do you just own multiple sets of probes?
 
Thread looks like a mine is bigger than yours kind of thing.

I use disposable probes.

Mix of patients and procedures every day.

I try and do as little as possible and not get fired.
 
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15 minute injections. 30 minutes for RFA. 1 hour for SCS trials. Same for office or Injection suite in hospital.
 
I have a mid level who draws up my meds while I am dictating previous patient. Works well. Plus, RN, X-ray tech, and 2 circulators to bring in/out patients..
 
But yep I agree with folks above. About 3 cases per hour is what I average.

Seems to be standard if you only have one room. Some PP docs have 2 rooms and probably double that...
 
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In a 4 hour period. I average around 15- a mix of spine, joint, and a couple RFA's.

Just curious... trying to figure out if I'm slow, average, or fast compared to my fellow interventionalists

Office based procedure room. 1RFA, 5 procedures ( mix of CESI, LESI, TFI, MBB) 2 new patients and 6-7 follow ups in half day.
 
I have a mid level who draws up my meds while I am dictating previous patient. Works well. Plus, RN, X-ray tech, and 2 circulators to bring in/out patients..

Oh wow, how much does an X-ray tech charge for the procedure half day? I’m doing about 8 procedures in a half day but it’s only me and an MA(who runs the machine and rooms patients). What do you think is the next best way (economical) to get more patients in a half day?
 
Oh wow, how much does an X-ray tech charge for the procedure half day? I’m doing about 8 procedures in a half day but it’s only me and an MA(who runs the machine and rooms patients). What do you think is the next best way (economical) to get more patients in a half day?

Go visit the folks who do 2x as many in same sos.
 
15 in a half day is reasonable, you're giving yourself 15 minutes per procedure. I don't think you should actively try to be "faster" than that. Sometimes we forget we don't operate in a bubble. I had a patient tell me about another place he went where they were whipping through procedures and he could see the long list on the board and the doctor was hurrying from one room to another without really saying Hello. It gave him weird vibes. If your patients feel put off by your practice set up they won't come back.
 
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Interventional Spine Fellowship Nightmare

I thought I share this horrible experience with all of you. Maybe it will teach all of you something about doing a fellowship and getting a job. Conversely, maybe someone has a suggestion for me.

I recently finished what ended up being a clinical fellowship in physiatry spine at a prestigious hospital. I am in a rather atypical situation. The fellowship that I was in originally also offered some minimal training in interventional spine procedures, which consisted of one day a week of observation of procedures and another half day a week of performing them under supervision.

The atypical situation is as follows: I was not progressing very fast in performing the procedures, I attribute this to not having this experience during my residency training to any lengthy degree. During this fellowship, the interventional training I received was also not extensive. It was as if they expected me to already be able to perform these procedures at the start of the fellowship. I also had some issues reading x-rays at the beginning of the fellowship and finding the correct targets in arthritic joints. However, I started to progress and feel more confident approximately halfway through the fellowship. Rest assured, I vigorously studied anatomy and procedure books on a full-time basis during that time, as I realized my deficiencies. Despite the progress I was making, they decided to take me off of procedures at the six month mark.

From the very beginning of the fellowship, it was emphasized that interventional procedures were not the main focus, and this was quite obvious by the low volume that I would see during a week. The main preceptor that I had stated that she feels like could become better if I had a higher volume. She tried to get me more time doing procedures with other clinicians but was unsuccessful in getting me a significantly higher volume.

I continued to pursue how to improve performing the procedures. I found some great resources on the Spine Interventional Society website in regards to reading fluoroscopic anatomy. In addition to this, I eventually stumbled upon a simulator that could be used under live floro. The main issues that I was having were needlecraft/precision getting to at target consistently as well as manipulating the florscope to get a perfect picture of the target. Let's be honest, this is a skill that can be improved with practice. The more I used this simulator during a two day workshop, the more comfortable I started to feel. After the conference, I purchased one and just received it.

A new problem that arised was that I was able to get a physiatry job that had involved performing some interventional spine procedures. Since this hospital staff never told me of any specific requirements or any formal piece of paper proving that I was proficient performing the procedures wasn't needed. I felt that this job was a good fit for me. I was always honest with them and told them that my current skill level is not that of a full-time interventionist but would most likely improve overtime with practice and continued education in both conferences and with my new simulator. Verbally, they were in agreement with this. I signed a contract with them back on April 30, 2018 and was slated to start working for them on August 6, 2018. However, they received an accucheck form from my fellowship program that had a checkbox checked off as me not having received full credit for the fellowship due to "only marginal skills at performing spinal injections.” I was told that my clinical skills surpassed that of previous fellows, but my inability to do procedures at the six month mark really caused a big problem to get any gainful employment. Thus, the hospital that hired me told me to withdraw my application for employment, as I most definitely would be denied privileges.

The truth is, I did not get a fair chance to become proficient in performing these procedures. I am trying very hard not to do another fellowship year, as I do not believe I need it. I am not trying to be a needle jockey; Rather, I am only asking for a chance to be able to perform the procedures that I am comfortable in in a hospital or practice setting. Throughout time, I will become better and more proficient. I really do not know how to proceed from here. I'm about to take a full time position in urgent care despite having a physiatry residency training and a fellowship in spine at a prestigious academic institution. I refuse to do inpatient rehab, as I do not enjoy it and do not feel I can utilize my skills in that environment.

Does anyone have any idea how I should proceed in at least having the ability to prove myself again in interventional procedures without taking a 300% pay cut (doing another fellowship) and probably having to move to some other city with my wife and my two young children? For instance, does anybody know of any proctoring programs that can assist people trying to add procedures after the training? I spoke to a surgeon who states that he learned how to do a colonoscopy after his residency training and had to get specific proctoring and ordered you get privileges to perform the colonoscopies at a hospital. I wasn't sure if anyone else was aware of this.
 
In a 4 hour period. I average around 15- a mix of spine, joint, and a couple RFA's.

Just curious... trying to figure out if I'm slow, average, or fast compared to my fellow interventionalists
That is pretty close to what I've done.
 
That is pretty close to what I've done.
I don’t think its the procedures that take a long time, it’s the actual turnover, drawing up meds etc
 
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Interventional Spine Fellowship Nightmare

I thought I share this horrible experience with all of you. Maybe it will teach all of you something about doing a fellowship and getting a job. Conversely, maybe someone has a suggestion for me.

I recently finished what ended up being a clinical fellowship in physiatry spine at a prestigious hospital. I am in a rather atypical situation. The fellowship that I was in originally also offered some minimal training in interventional spine procedures, which consisted of one day a week of observation of procedures and another half day a week of performing them under supervision.

The atypical situation is as follows: I was not progressing very fast in performing the procedures, I attribute this to not having this experience during my residency training to any lengthy degree. During this fellowship, the interventional training I received was also not extensive. It was as if they expected me to already be able to perform these procedures at the start of the fellowship. I also had some issues reading x-rays at the beginning of the fellowship and finding the correct targets in arthritic joints. However, I started to progress and feel more confident approximately halfway through the fellowship. Rest assured, I vigorously studied anatomy and procedure books on a full-time basis during that time, as I realized my deficiencies. Despite the progress I was making, they decided to take me off of procedures at the six month mark.

From the very beginning of the fellowship, it was emphasized that interventional procedures were not the main focus, and this was quite obvious by the low volume that I would see during a week. The main preceptor that I had stated that she feels like could become better if I had a higher volume. She tried to get me more time doing procedures with other clinicians but was unsuccessful in getting me a significantly higher volume.

I continued to pursue how to improve performing the procedures. I found some great resources on the Spine Interventional Society website in regards to reading fluoroscopic anatomy. In addition to this, I eventually stumbled upon a simulator that could be used under live floro. The main issues that I was having were needlecraft/precision getting to at target consistently as well as manipulating the florscope to get a perfect picture of the target. Let's be honest, this is a skill that can be improved with practice. The more I used this simulator during a two day workshop, the more comfortable I started to feel. After the conference, I purchased one and just received it.

A new problem that arised was that I was able to get a physiatry job that had involved performing some interventional spine procedures. Since this hospital staff never told me of any specific requirements or any formal piece of paper proving that I was proficient performing the procedures wasn't needed. I felt that this job was a good fit for me. I was always honest with them and told them that my current skill level is not that of a full-time interventionist but would most likely improve overtime with practice and continued education in both conferences and with my new simulator. Verbally, they were in agreement with this. I signed a contract with them back on April 30, 2018 and was slated to start working for them on August 6, 2018. However, they received an accucheck form from my fellowship program that had a checkbox checked off as me not having received full credit for the fellowship due to "only marginal skills at performing spinal injections.” I was told that my clinical skills surpassed that of previous fellows, but my inability to do procedures at the six month mark really caused a big problem to get any gainful employment. Thus, the hospital that hired me told me to withdraw my application for employment, as I most definitely would be denied privileges.

The truth is, I did not get a fair chance to become proficient in performing these procedures. I am trying very hard not to do another fellowship year, as I do not believe I need it. I am not trying to be a needle jockey; Rather, I am only asking for a chance to be able to perform the procedures that I am comfortable in in a hospital or practice setting. Throughout time, I will become better and more proficient. I really do not know how to proceed from here. I'm about to take a full time position in urgent care despite having a physiatry residency training and a fellowship in spine at a prestigious academic institution. I refuse to do inpatient rehab, as I do not enjoy it and do not feel I can utilize my skills in that environment.

Does anyone have any idea how I should proceed in at least having the ability to prove myself again in interventional procedures without taking a 300% pay cut (doing another fellowship) and probably having to move to some other city with my wife and my two young children? For instance, does anybody know of any proctoring programs that can assist people trying to add procedures after the training? I spoke to a surgeon who states that he learned how to do a colonoscopy after his residency training and had to get specific proctoring and ordered you get privileges to perform the colonoscopies at a hospital. I wasn't sure if anyone else was aware of this.
.
This sounds like either the hss or cleaveland clinic fellowship to me...
 
With no RFs, assuming the patients are there are time, 6/hour or 30 in a 5 hour morning. We have had a few complaints about the pace.
 
When you guys do lumbar RFA, do you generally do it unilateral or bilateral in one sitting? I do my procedures in an ASC for now and really can’t justify bringing the patient in twice to do both sides, so I’ve been doing bilateral. Cervicals I will still do unilateral unless there is a real pressing reason.
 
I usually do unilateral, with one week apart for all RFAs. I do it all outpatient (non-ASC)
I do wonder, what’s a good speed for a Stim trial? I usually have an hour blocked for placement of both leads start to finish. Programming is usually off the table in a side room.
 
I usually do unilateral, with one week apart for all RFAs. I do it all outpatient (non-ASC)
I do wonder, what’s a good speed for a Stim trial? I usually have an hour blocked for placement of both leads start to finish. Programming is usually off the table in a side room.

A good speed is however long it takes to do it safely
 
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4 per hour max for me which includes RFA (unilateral 20-30 mins)

I work for a hospital and system inefficiencies mean I have to hand write all my own consents, prep own patients, draw all drugs, fluoro room turnover is slow.
 
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4 per hour max for me which includes RFA (unilateral 20-30 mins)

I work for a hospital and system inefficiencies mean I have to hand write all my own consents, prep own patients, draw all drugs, fluoro room turnover is slow.

Same problem here. 4 per hour is still pretty good tho, I can barely do 3
 
previously we were at 4/hour, now with the change to Epic and all the documentation required for nursing we are at 3/hour. I'm convinced they're documenting way more than is necessary. And of course admin is questioning our decreased productivity.
 
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with Epic, there is a way of copying parts of the previous note. does save on some of the useless clicking...

be careful, though, as "same" notes time and again may trigger reviews. always update whatever you copy over so that each note represents the current situation/exam.
 
^agree, I don't bother with copying anything forward. I prefer not to hunt for things that need to be changed and just dictate a clean note.
 
In a 4 hour period. I average around 15- a mix of spine, joint, and a couple RFA's.

Just curious... trying to figure out if I'm slow, average, or fast compared to my fellow interventionalists
100

Just kidding.

25
 
How many do you need to do to be able to say you have done enough?
 
i used to do 15 ESI's or MBB's per half day when i was somebody else's employee....now i do about 5 procedures mixed with new pt's and follow ups and take my time. Today i did an SI, an ESI, some f/u's, 2 new patients, and a knee injxn... but it was 4 very close but different procedures in the knee. Took me about 15-20"
 
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15 minute injections. 30 minutes for RFA. 1 hour for SCS trials. Same for office or Injection suite in hospital.

Yes, I similarly allot 15 minutes for basic injections, 30 minutes for RFL, 60 minutes for SCS and average 3-4 procedures an hour. Typically 18-24 procedures a day.
 
i'm in the same boat. avg 3-4 procedure per hr. mixed bag. usually mbb/ESI are quick and RFs longer
 
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