How much do family doctors actually earn? Right after residency?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Status
Not open for further replies.
You can also do DPC and earn 300K if you take on about 800 to 1000 patients at around 75/month. Medlion does something like this.

Is this a good deal for the docs? I think a typical panel of patients is around 1500, right? So dropping that to 800 would be a happy medium from the typical 200-400 that most other DPC practices are offering. Maybe the doc gets to set regular hours under this arrangement instead of the 24/7 that VIP practices offer? I'm intrigued.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Sorry if I missed something but how is 80-115/hr = 300k/yr? Are you still making ~80-115/hr?

I worked most of the year 70 hrs a week. My total at the end was 245K, not 300K. However, I have just signed a contract that is 10 12 hour shifts a month making the same pay and with full benefits. Life is changing.
 
I worked most of the year 70 hrs a week. My total at the end was 245K, not 300K. However, I have just signed a contract that is 10 12 hour shifts a month making the same pay and with full benefits. Life is changing.
You are underpaid. Made $435,000 last year doing 8 twenty four shifts a month in a 10k rural ER
 
Members don't see this ad :)
You are underpaid. Made $435,000 last year doing 8 twenty four shifts a month in a 10k rural ER
Can you comment on your preparation for that work, ie did you concentrate on EM during residency or otherwise log a bazillion procedures? What kind of credentials/logs were you expected to have by that employer?

Cabin provides this kind of info & it's extremely helpful in thinking about what I need to accumulate to maximize opportunities.
 
Can you comment on your preparation for that work, ie did you concentrate on EM during residency or otherwise log a bazillion procedures? What kind of credentials/logs were you expected to have by that employer?

Cabin provides this kind of info & it's extremely helpful in thinking about what I need to accumulate to maximize opportunities.
drMidlife. Your a med student take a deep breath and slow down. 1st. I went to a family medicine where we were the only residents. 2nd. Don't be a wuss, if you want something get it done. 3rd. Procedures are not what ER medicine is about, I do central lines with ultrasound and difficult Intubations become routine with a glidescope. Technology is your friend. So is the university hospital 30 minutes by helicopter.
The scary patient is the 2 year old who might be really sick and your by yourself in a rural area. 4th. I would encourage you to log your procedures. I get multiple high paying job offers daily. 5th my wife and I have been to Thailand, turkey, diving in Australia and multiple trips short trips in the USA in the past 18 months, life is fun. It all works out. Money is freedom.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
i'm a med student for like 2 more days...sorry if my interest in starting residency with a forward-thinking strategy is odd to you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
i'm a med student for like 2 more days...sorry if my interest in starting residency with a forward-thinking strategy is odd to you.
Seriously DrMidlife, the info I just gave you was what I thought you wanted to here. Good luck. Med students, yuk. And cabin builder yes I am on 1099
 
Seriously DrMidlife, the info I just gave you was what I thought you wanted to here. Good luck. Med students, yuk. And cabin builder yes I am on 1099
Drmidewife is a little sassy for not knowing his/her own shadow, I think cabin builder might agree.
 
Last year, I made about 400K in Canada. About 150K in my personal account from my academic responsibilities (for which I'm paid a salary) and 250K in my medical corporation. I work in Canada. I also made about 40K in dividends from my investments. As for taxes, my corporate tax rate is 14% (actually less because I write off a lot).
 
Last year, I made about 400K in Canada. About 150K in my personal account from my academic responsibilities (for which I'm paid a salary) and 250K in my medical corporation. I work in Canada. I also made about 40K in dividends from my investments. As for taxes, my corporate tax rate is 14% (actually less because I write off a lot).
Thanks Kratos, is that 400k in US or Canadian dollars? Also just out of curiosity did you go from the US to Canada i.e. no Canadian citizenship but still able to get a job there?
 
Thanks Kratos, is that 400k in US or Canadian dollars? Also just out of curiosity did you go from the US to Canada i.e. no Canadian citizenship but still able to get a job there?

400K Canadian dollars. I moved from US to Canada after med school (wife is Canadian) so got permanent residency. Med school at a large midwestern top 20 school.

Also, don't underestimate the importance of investing. I'm only 35 but my dividend/non-working income actually is already 10% of my actual income. Due to compounding, in 10 years, I anticipate I will probably make more from my investments than from actual work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
400K Canadian dollars. I moved from US to Canada after med school (wife is Canadian) so got permanent residency. Med school at a large midwestern top 20 school.

Also, don't underestimate the importance of investing. I'm only 35 but my dividend/non-working income actually is already 10% of my actual income. Due to compounding, in 10 years, I anticipate I will probably make more from my investments than from actual work.
Awesome, would love to get to where you are or even halfway to where you are someday! :thumbup:
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Is this a good deal for the docs? I think a typical panel of patients is around 1500, right? So dropping that to 800 would be a happy medium from the typical 200-400 that most other DPC practices are offering. Maybe the doc gets to set regular hours under this arrangement instead of the 24/7 that VIP practices offer? I'm intrigued.


Most FM docs that work for someone have a panel of about 3000. So it's a good deal if you can though it out the first few years. It's not a good deal for someone coming right out of residency. Patients may want an experienced doctor or the doctor may have too much debt to make it work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Yes, but I was doing locums, not a permanent job. I should be closer to your numbers this year with RVU's. Plus I don't work ER which gives a higher base salary.

Jc but would you know the approximate range for yearly salary for an fm doc (let's say ~45hr/wk, out pt primary care) within an hour of a large Midwestern city like Chicago or Milwaukee?
 
Jc but would you know the approximate range for yearly salary for an fm doc (let's say ~45hr/wk, out pt primary care) within an hour of a large Midwestern city like Chicago or Milwaukee?
I'm not the best person to ask that. I have never worked a job as an FM in a permanent fashion longer than 3 months. The last time I worked FM was 5 years ago.
 
i'm a med student for like 2 more days...sorry if my interest in starting residency with a forward-thinking strategy is odd to you.
Dr. Midlife, congrats on graduating!! I've followed your posts off and on for years. What residency did you get and where? Just curious. PM me or respond here. (sorry for hijacking the thread).
 
Drmidewife is a little sassy for not knowing his/her own shadow, I think cabin builder might agree.

Seriously? DrMidlife is asking a thoughtful question about how to prepare for getting jobs in the ED. Do you have to be so put-out about it? You can choose not to answer. And the question wouldn't be any less valid if it were to come from a med student either, for that matter.

Come off your high horse and add something meaningful to the conversation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Based off of all the offers I see/receive, I would say starting salaries are at the minimum of 220k.

250k is routine all over the place, and yes, this is starting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Based off of all the offers I see/receive, I would say starting salaries are at the minimum of 220k.

250k is routine all over the place, and yes, this is starting.

FM is about to get more and more competitive..
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
FM is about to get more and more competitive..

IDK about that. Yes pay is increasing, but pay in other specialties is also increasing. EM is at 350k now. I wonder if asking for these high salaries has anything to do with med student debt climbing towards 300k nowadays.
 
IDK about that. Yes pay is increasing, but pay in other specialties is also increasing. EM is at 350k now. I wonder if asking for these high salaries has anything to do with med student debt climbing towards 300k nowadays.

Yeah, but the number of EM slots available post-match (I.e. SOAP) is like 0.
FM = great QOL, do whatever you want, lots of flex and healthcare is favoring primary care, loan reimbursement depending on where you go, massive sign ons and bonus structures too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Yeah, but the number of EM slots available post-match (I.e. SOAP) is like 0.
FM = great QOL, do whatever you want, lots of flex and healthcare is favoring primary care, loan reimbursement depending on where you go, massive sign ons and bonus structures too.

Don't kid yourself. FM does not always equal good quality of life. Just go to sermo and see who many angry FP's with very poor quality of life there are out there. The latest data suggest most FM's would not do it again if they could go back.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Don't kid yourself. FM does not always equal good quality of life. Just go to sermo and see who many angry FP's with very poor quality of life there are out there. The latest data suggest most FM's would not do it again if they could go back.
Eh, it seems like everyone on sermo is miserable. Most family doctors I know are pretty content with life. This doesn't mean we don't get frustrated with things, but overall its a good balance. Yeah, there are frustrations but a lot of that is by choice - if you're unhappy with your job, find a new one. Its really not that hard.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Loan forgiveness from employers: how does this work? Are they directly paying off your loans? Is this taxable compensation? Are salaries offered by employers who offer this generally lower?
 
Drmidewife is a little sassy for not knowing his/her own shadow, I think cabin builder might agree.
No, I think your comment is rude and older students just have a longer sighted view of the world and there is nothing wrong with trying to prepare for your future. That's what I did in residency and did specific rotations that would prepare me for rural medicine - not sit in the OR every elective watching the ortho guys hammer in knee replacements. Boring and irrelevent to me. If you ever read anything by @JustPlainBill one gets a good insight on how a residency does not prepare you for the real world and it's a hell of a lot harder to back track after the fact than learn it right the first time.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Loan forgiveness from employers: how does this work? Are they directly paying off your loans? Is this taxable compensation? Are salaries offered by employers who offer this generally lower?
They directly pay towards your loan (better for them tax-wise). I don't believe its considered taxable income. Salaries are generally unaffected by loan repayment or not.Its a good thing to negotiate for.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
No, I think your comment is rude and older students just have a longer sighted view of the world and there is nothing wrong with trying to prepare for your future. That's what I did in residency and did specific rotations that would prepare me for rural medicine - not sit in the OR every elective watching the ortho guys hammer in knee replacements. Boring and irrelevent to me. If you ever read anything by @JustPlainBill one gets a good insight on how a residency does not prepare you for the real world and it's a hell of a lot harder to back track after the fact than learn it right the first time.

I agree with cabinbuilder -- It was a reasonable question about how to prepare for the future -- no need to be disparaging towards a med student -- only time to slap one down is when they're being cocky or whatever ---

And yes, it's a good idea to get all the training you need in residency so you at least have a base to work from --- sometime in late second/early third year the confidence should kick in and off you go -- helps if you can moonlight --- at the program I went to we weren't allowed to moonlight, were so well thought of that we got almost no procedures and had to actually bring in a doc to run a procedures clinic --- and even then, all the hoops that had to be jumped through turned a 5 minute knee injection into a half hour long process with timeouts, consents, id/verification, etc. --- vs going over to ortho where the resident walked down to the med cabinet, drew up what they wanted, swabbed the area and stuck the patient --- just like in real life.

You will have a very difficult time recovering from a poor or weak residency, trust me on this ---- and once you cross your intern year, almost no one will want to pick you up since your funding is going and they may have to float you for a year from their budget ---- not likely to happen.

and it's "you're" -- which is a contraction of "you are" not "your" which indicates possession.....not that I'm a grammar Nazi or anything ---

@cabinbuilder -- always knew you loved me ;->
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
When an intern, I thought, as an attending, I was going to be this all-star procedure guy, great biller and would make 200k which would make me uber happy. Sure I would work a saturday or 2 a month and do some call, but that's what being a PCP was.
Fast forward to today and I work 0 weekends, do 0 call and make more than 200k (see my post on page 6 of this), but I still complain. I dont know what exactly constitutes STFU money or if that even exists, but I remember what I thought was great as an intern and it does give me perspective.

I havent been to SERMO, but this profession has lost some prestige, its easy to dump on us and patient expectations can sometimes be ridiculous. Maybe that wasnt hte case 20 years ago? Maybe it was, but because you made more than everyone else it didnt matter? I dont know. But I am complaining less, problem shooting more and trying to become smarter, more proficient and better at my chosen profession. things could always be better, but hey they're pretty good right now.
 
...snip...

I havent been to SERMO, but this profession has lost some prestige, its easy to dump on us and patient expectations can sometimes be ridiculous. Maybe that wasnt hte case 20 years ago? Maybe it was, but because you made more than everyone else it didnt matter? I dont know. But I am complaining less, problem shooting more and trying to become smarter, more proficient and better at my chosen profession. things could always be better, but hey they're pretty good right now.

My son and I were ruminating on this one over the weekend --- he's considering medicine vs law right now. We were discussing that now, with the invention of Dr. Google, everyone is suddenly qualified to be an FM doc --- to say nothing of the grief we get from mid-levels -- usually not PAs but NPs for sure; I'm usually pretty easy to work with but every once in a while I'll get a snarky patient and they get treated to the "Physician's Inner Monologue" and since they've done their "research", I usually begin by asking them for the journal article title/index in PubMed so I can avail myself of the latest information which they are obviously quoting -- usually that shuts them up as most have never heard of PubMed; If they continue, we begin discussing NNT/NNH, and other such fun topics and then by the time I get into my physical exam, they're usually ready to run screaming from the building when they hear me rule out signs of really bad diseases -- usually disfiguring or limiting the sexual abilities in some form or fashion -- and if they're still getting after it, I go to my medication choices and discuss it with them as if they are a colleague -- that usually leaves the eyes crossed and we're done......

and yes, FM usually gets it from all sides -- patients who now are self-diagnosing with Dr. Google, NPs who have determined that with a masters degree and some clinical experience they're the equivalent of a BC FM attending, and other specialists who have determined that we're too stupid to do what they do -- when in truth, with the exception of some detailed procedures, FM can treat most things in general --- I wouldn't want an FM doc doing a cardiac cath but you get the idea....


Agree with last bolded statement --- learn more every day and be happy ....
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Sermo is the biggest bunch of whiners on the face of the Earth. I haven't logged onto that Godforsaken hellhole in years.

As for "Dr. Google," as long as people are showing up in my office, I don't care. I can help them sort through the good and the bad as far as online resources are concerned. It's the ones who don't show up in my office who should worry.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Sermo is the biggest bunch of whiners on the face of the Earth. I haven't logged onto that Godforsaken hellhole in years.

As for "Dr. Google," as long as people are showing up in my office, I don't care. I can help them sort through the good and the bad as far as online resources are concerned. It's the ones who don't show up in my office who should worry.
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Sermo is the biggest bunch of whiners on the face of the Earth. I haven't logged onto that Godforsaken hellhole in years.

As for "Dr. Google," as long as people are showing up in my office, I don't care. I can help them sort through the good and the bad as far as online resources are concerned. It's the ones who don't show up in my office who should worry.

That's what I like about you, BD -- you've always presented a reasoned, thought out response as opposed to others on this board who tend to shoot from the hip and their answer depends on how much caffeine/sleep they've got on board *cough -- not talking about myself -- well maybe a little -- ok a lot *cough*

Seriously, you remind me of an ER doc I know -- he was my attending for a couple of shifts -- one of those GPs that had been doing ER since before it became a separate residency training type of field --- thorough, well thought out, kind but nobody's fool, able to teach all styles of learners and actually cared about the residents -- he was known for sending in pizza for everyone a couple of times a year -- usually around 8pm or on weekends, would regularly pay for the entire residency to go to the ACEP meetings and would cater in thanksgiving dinner --- since he would often work holidays to give others a break --- also owned one of the largest ER concerns in the DFW area ---- he seriously impacted my outlook on both medicine and life ---
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
They directly pay towards your loan (better for them tax-wise). I don't believe its considered taxable income. Salaries are generally unaffected by loan repayment or not.Its a good thing to negotiate for.

Curious, what if a newly grad doesn't have loans or are a minimal, what kind of negotiation contract ability would you have?
 
I always asked for more salary in that situation

exactly....most employees don't get this but bosses really care about two numbers. How much does this employee bring me and how much does this employee cost me. I never cared if my people wanted salary/stipend/phones/gas card etc.....the total number at the end was all that mattered, within reason they could chop it up however they wanted
 
Don't kid yourself. FM does not always equal good quality of life. Just go to sermo and see who many angry FP's with very poor quality of life there are out there. The latest data suggest most FM's would not do it again if they could go back.

There are lots of jobs out there, moreso than ever before in FM especially relative to a lot of other specialties.
If you don't like where you are, look for a new gig. I say there's 3 things to consider: quality of job, location, pay. You can usually get 2 out of 3 at most locations and 3/3 if you go rural. I didn't want rural, I wanted something not necessarily a city but is big enough to have everything in close vicinity. My pay is average, with bonus for more. Quality of job and location is great. I'm happy with that. If it doesn't work out, I'll move.
 
exactly....most employees don't get this but bosses really care about two numbers. How much does this employee bring me and how much does this employee cost me. I never cared if my people wanted salary/stipend/phones/gas card etc.....the total number at the end was all that mattered, within reason they could chop it up however they wanted
This is something I wish I'd understood better when negotiating for my first job out of residency (and my second to be fair) - as a board certified family doctor (and really most any kind of doctor) you hold the upper hand. There are way more jobs than doctors out there, especially in FM. If you don't like some part of the terms, demand they be changed. The counter to this is that you have to be prepared to walk away, so always have back up jobs ready to go.

Plus, if you include ancillary services (really only a thing if you work for a hospital system), we earn WAY more than we're paid. Use that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Eh, it seems like everyone on sermo is miserable. Most family doctors I know are pretty content with life. This doesn't mean we don't get frustrated with things, but overall its a good balance. Yeah, there are frustrations but a lot of that is by choice - if you're unhappy with your job, find a new one. Its really not that hard.

That's not what the latest statistics say.
 
That's not what the latest statistics say.
2015 Medscape survey put FM 8th out of 26 specialties in regard to satisfaction with pay. FPs also had the highest "would choose medicine again" rating of any specialty, which is interesting, considering they were the second least likely to choose their own specialty. They were the 9th least happy specialty, but the difference in that category was really splitting hairs- a mere 4% separated them from being in the top six.

My bet is, however, that many of those that do not enjoy FM are those that were forced into it as a backup specialty. It would be interesting to see what the numbers look like only for people that went into FM wanting to do FM.
 
2015 Medscape survey put FM 8th out of 26 specialties in regard to satisfaction with pay. FPs also had the highest "would choose medicine again" rating of any specialty, which is interesting, considering they were the second least likely to choose their own specialty. They were the 9th least happy specialty, but the difference in that category was really splitting hairs- a mere 4% separated them from being in the top six.

My bet is, however, that many of those that do not enjoy FM are those that were forced into it as a backup specialty. It would be interesting to see what the numbers look like only for people that went into FM wanting to do FM.

Perhaps?
I switched into it. FM wasn't my top choice initially - I matched into a different specialty. I really do enjoy FM now.
 
2015 Medscape survey put FM 8th out of 26 specialties in regard to satisfaction with pay. FPs also had the highest "would choose medicine again" rating of any specialty, which is interesting, considering they were the second least likely to choose their own specialty. They were the 9th least happy specialty, but the difference in that category was really splitting hairs- a mere 4% separated them from being in the top six.

My bet is, however, that many of those that do not enjoy FM are those that were forced into it as a backup specialty. It would be interesting to see what the numbers look like only for people that went into FM wanting to do FM.
Ya that's what I think. It's probably people that have grass is greener syndrome.
 
2015 Medscape survey put FM 8th out of 26 specialties in regard to satisfaction with pay. FPs also had the highest "would choose medicine again" rating of any specialty, which is interesting, considering they were the second least likely to choose their own specialty. They were the 9th least happy specialty, but the difference in that category was really splitting hairs- a mere 4% separated them from being in the top six.

My bet is, however, that many of those that do not enjoy FM are those that were forced into it as a backup specialty. It would be interesting to see what the numbers look like only for people that went into FM wanting to do FM.


Only 29% would do FP again. That is a telling number. As far as being forced into it, I can't imagine 71% being forced into FP.

For the record I'm not trying to talk anyone out or into FM. But I do think people should know the facts. If other specialties are making 2x+ of what you make there is a problem.
 
Last edited:
Only 29% would do FP again. That is a telling number. As far as being forced into it, I can't imagine 71% being forced into FP.

For the record I'm not trying to talk anyone out or into FM. But I do think people should know the facts. If other specialties are making 2x+ of what you make there is a problem.


Maybe they trained longer or work harder? FM sounds "easier" than most.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
That's not what the latest statistics say.
Yeah, don't care what statistics say. Just like patient satisfaction surveys, the happy docs usually don't have time/care enough to fill them out.

Medscape sends me those annual salary/happiness surveys and they go right into the trash folder. What about you BD, you ever fill those out?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Only 29% would do FP again. That is a telling number. As far as being forced into it, I can't imagine 71% being forced into FP.

For the record I'm not trying to talk anyone out or into FM. But I do think people should know the facts. If other specialties are making 2x+ of what you make there is a problem.
Yeah but most of them either work harder/worse hours (EM), had harder residencies (surgery), or had harder to match into specialties (derm).

If you look at other non-procedural office-based specialties (allergy, endocrine, peds, general IM), we're all about the same.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Yeah, don't care what statistics say. Just like patient satisfaction surveys, the happy docs usually don't have time/care enough to fill them out.

Medscape sends me those annual salary/happiness surveys and they go right into the trash folder. What about you BD, you ever fill those out?

No. I don't think I've ever received one, actually. Maybe they're just polling people on Sermo. ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Maybe they trained longer or work harder? FM sounds "easier" than most.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Perhaps. I mean whatever floats your boat. Most of the people in here are early in their training so there is lots of idealistic views and there are several who are in here who have been practicing for some time now and are happy with it and that's great.

I just like to point out both sides of the coin because if someone is trying to choose they should really know both sides especially if they have high student loans.

What I do know is if something is great is will be in high demand and FM has had some of the lowest number overall. It went up this year by a little. This fact is actually true all over the world. Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK are all experiencing FM shortage.
 
Perhaps. I mean whatever floats your boat. Most of the people in here are early in their training so there is lots of idealistic views and there are several who are in here who have been practicing for some time now and are happy with it and that's great.

I just like to point out both sides of the coin because if someone is trying to choose they should really know both sides especially if they have high student loans.

What I do know is if something is great is will be in high demand and FM has had some of the lowest number overall. It went up this year by a little. This fact is actually true all over the world. Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK are all experiencing FM shortage.

Tell me more about your practice.
 
Only 29% would do FP again. That is a telling number. As far as being forced into it, I can't imagine 71% being forced into FP.

For the record I'm not trying to talk anyone out or into FM. But I do think people should know the facts. If other specialties are making 2x+ of what you make there is a problem.
Considering that roughly half of FM spots went to independent applicants that largely weren't competitive for much else (largely FMGs/IMGs- not saying all, but many), and that even the most thrilled of specialties are in the 50s so far as "would do again," and that, historically, FM was even more IA heavy- I could see 50% or more of the people in FM preferring to have not been there in the first place. It's a fine specialty for people that want to be in it, but due to the competitive nature of the match, there have simply been a lot of people that end up in FM because it's the one place they've got a solid shot at care of scores or whatever.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top