How much do school rankings matter past a certain threshold?

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I acknowledge that students at top schools have an advantage compared to their peers at lower ranked schools. I'm just saying that the magnitude of the differences in the data you shared cannot completely be accounted for by school rank alone since it does not control for test scores (or, for that matter, other factors that PDs value much more than school rank including clinical grades and recommendation letters).

Besides, I was more curious about when rankings should become less of a factor for deciding between schools. Common sense tells you going to a top 25 school will help you compared to a top 100 school. But what about a top 25 school compared to a top 5 school? My impression from the discussion so far is that at this stage it matters very little.
its a difficult question to answer without looking at data that is not available. I think if you have a specific residency in mind in a specific field going to that institution is probably beneficial. I suspect that top 5 's offer more opportunities , but it is difficult to quantify.

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its a difficult question to answer without looking at data that is not available. I think if you have a specific residency in mind in a specific field going to that institution is probably beneficial. I suspect that top 5 's offer more opportunities , but it is difficult to quantify.
Well so far the only program director who has responded to this thread seems to suggest there's no difference within the highest echelons of medical schools. I do agree that if you have specific programs in mind, then you should choose a school accordingly.
 
Well so far the only program director who has responded to this thread seems to suggest there's no difference within the highest echelons of medical schools. I do agree that if you have specific programs in mind, then you should choose a school accordingly.

The question "do school rankings matter beyond a certain threshold?" is meaningless until you define an outcome.
 
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The question "do school rankings matter beyond a certain threshold?" is meaningless until you define an outcome.
Do they matter past a certain threshold for attaining competitive residencies or a career in academic medicine.
 
Also what they don't tell you is that location matters in terms of helping ease the residency application process. If you already know you'd like to be on either the east coast or west coast for residency, having gone to med school on either coast establishes some geographical ties that opens up doors for interviews. I think that's been my experience, personally. And from seeing how my (east coast) institutions' residencies heavily draw from only the east coast, with a sprinkling of west coasters and virtually no one from a midwestern medical school.

It's definitely possible to still go to a school in the midwest and interview/match at a residency at either coast (or vise versa), but you'll probably have to do some extra leg work in terms of doing away rotations in your geographical area of interest and writing an extra email here or there.

The question "do school rankings matter beyond a certain threshold?" is meaningless until you define an outcome.

agreed. What is it at the end that matters? You could specify by competencies gained, diversity of co-trainees, professional advancement, etc.
 
Do they matter past a certain threshold for attaining competitive residencies or a career in academic medicine.

Not really. If you get into Harvard, you should attend Harvard. I think we can all agree on that. It is, however, helpful to consider that the residency game is very, very different from the medical school game. There are ~150 allopathic schools, with over half of premed applicants not getting in. There are over 5,000 residency programs that participate in the main match. Going to medical school is joining a team. Ranking residency programs is finding a family. The best one is the one that suits you.

Competitive residencies can be had from any accredited program. Being a good student is worth more than anything else, by far. Second is having a department/GME program in the field you are interested in. This makes research/networking significantly easier, but I have seen some insane matches over the years based almost entirely on audition rotations.

A career in academic medicine is a very vague term. This could range from the R01-funded MD/PhD bench scientist with 5% clinical time to an 80/20 clinician-educator who does almost no research. And anything in between.

In the end, choosing a medical school is a bit like choosing a store in which to purchase a can of Campbell's chicken soup. The rankings would have you believe that the store with 700 cans in stock is better than the store with 50 cans in stock, but at the end of the day you only need one freaking can of the stuff. So use other criteria.
 
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A career in academic medicine is a very vague term. This could range from the R01-funded MD/PhD bench scientist with 5% clinical time to an 80/20 clinician-educator who does almost no research. And anything in between.

Often the definition is "a physician willing to take a pay cut".

If I called up any of the 4 academic departments in the city and asked if they had any openings, I'm sure at least 2-3 would offer me a job on the spot. I'm likely to drop my salary by 25% for said job, and my per-RVU compensation by even more than that with more call to cover. As it stands now, though I get to do some clinical education with residents on the side while only being at an affiliate hospital. I could likely to more, with some additional lectures to students, etc, if I spent less time on this damn website and put a little more effort in.
 
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I know I'm jumping in on this convo, but the residency programs you listed are not even Top 10 residency programs by reputation or research output according to doximity, which is the prime ranking system for residency programs by specialty. The schools are incredible medical schools, but that doesn't mean all of their residency programs are top notch as well. So I think it goes a little against your point.

There is no such thing as a prime ranking system. Doximity is about 3 years old and is nothing more than a popularity contest where the "ranks" are determined by votes. And those residency programs are definitely top notch.
 
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Not really. If you get into Harvard, you should attend Harvard. I think we can all agree on that. It is, however, helpful to consider that the residency game is very, very different from the medical school game. There are ~150 allopathic schools, with over half of premed applicants not getting in. There are over 5,000 residency programs that participate in the main match. Going to medical school is joining a team. Ranking residency programs is finding a family. The best one is the one that suits you.

Competitive residencies can be had from any accredited program. Being a good student is worth more than anything else, by far. Second is having a department/GME program in the field you are interested in. This makes research/networking significantly easier, but I have seen some insane matches over the years based almost entirely on audition rotations.

A career in academic medicine is a very vague term. This could range from the R01-funded MD/PhD bench scientist with 5% clinical time to an 80/20 clinician-educator who does almost no research. And anything in between.

In the end, choosing a medical school is a bit like choosing a store in which to purchase a can of Campbell's chicken soup. The rankings would have you believe that the store with 700 cans in stock is better than the store with 50 cans in stock, but at the end of the day you only need one freaking can of the stuff. So use other criteria.

Do you mind talking more about the clinician educator pathway? Is this something that is easier to build a career in at least relative to the RO1 funded physician? Also, what should someone who is interested in the clinician educator pathway do during med school and residency to make this career path a likely future option? Thanks for your time!
 
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Do you mind talking more about the clinician educator pathway? Is this something that is easier to build a career in at least relative to the ROL funded physician? Also, what should someone who is interested in the clinician educator do during med school and residency to make this career path a likely future option? Thanks for your time!
I’m also very interested in this.
 
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Do you mind talking more about the clinician educator pathway? Is this something that is easier to build a career in at least relative to the RO1 funded physician? Also, what should someone who is interested in the clinician educator pathway do during med school and residency to make this career path a likely future option? Thanks for your time!
Most of these physicians I have met have had nothing more than an MD , a residency in internal medicine and a desire to teach.
 
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My goodness that thread was quite the show. Although it doesn't really provide any clearer answers sadly. Looks like one of the attendings was quite outspoken about top 5 being better than everything else bar none though.

I believe one of the two main reasons that attending no longer posts in pre-allo is that his opinion on this issue is in the minority.

That said, his specialty is one of the diagnostic fields, one where you sell yourself to other physicians just as much as you do to patients. In that world your pedigree can have an outsized role in landing (and keeping) lucrative gigs in desirable locations. So I don't think he's completely wrong, he merely extrapolates too far outside of his own experiences.
 
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I believe one of the two main reasons that attending no longer posts in pre-allo is that his opinion on this issue is in the minority.

That said, his specialty is one of the diagnostic fields, one where you sell yourself to other physicians just as much as you do to patients. In that world your pedigree can have an outsized role in landing (and keeping) lucrative gigs in desirable locations. So I don't think he's completely wrong, he merely extrapolates too far outside of his own experiences.
I can certainly see where he is coming from (pedigree does seem to matter). But I can't imagine even for the most competitive specialty/residency that a top 5 full cost is a no-brainer over a top 20-25 for free.

Although one point he brought up is one I have considered as well. Is it true that you can be an average (or below average) student at a top 5-10 and still land a competitive residency, whereas at a top 20-25 you would have to be at the top of your class? Obviously there is no data to say one way or another, but maybe an attending or program director would have some insight.
 
Although one point he brought up is one I have considered as well. Is it true that you can be an average (or below average) student at a top 5-10 and still land a competitive residency, whereas at a top 20-25 you would have to be at the top of your class? Obviously there is no data to say one way or another, but maybe an attending or program director would have some insight.

Go look through the match lists if the “top 5”...... someone had to be bottom of the class but from looking at the match list I can guarantee you’ll never figure it out.
 
At least in internal medicine, it's kind of a joke to match at elite programs from a top school but very hard from a low tier. There are tons of data on this (look up "IM match results" threads or the current google doc used this application cycle with data on applicant info). Below average scores/few H/no research can still get you into top programs easily if you are coming from a top med school. You won't find anyone from a top 10 in those threads with a bad outcome even with low #s/ECs (and the med school match lists reflect this, however, some people assume everyone from these schools have high step scores and research, so it's helpful to look into the data). It is still doable to get anywhere from a low tier MD school, however, you would need an excellent application (high step/aoa/honors/research) for the most elite residencies. That being said, there's no real need for 95% of students to go to a "top" IM program; the majority of decent programs will accomplish your goals.
 
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At least in internal medicine, it's kind of a joke to match at elite programs from a top school but very hard from a low tier. There are tons of data on this (look up "IM match results" threads or the current google doc used this application cycle with data on applicant info). Below average scores/few H/no research can still get you into top programs easily if you are coming from a top med school. You won't find anyone from a top 10 in those threads with a bad outcome even with low #s/ECs (and the med school match lists reflect this, however, some people assume everyone from these schools have high step scores and research, so it's helpful to look into the data). It is still doable to get anywhere from a low tier MD school, however, you would need an excellent application (high step/aoa/honors/research) for the most elite residencies. That being said, there's no real need for 95% of students to go to a "top" IM program; the majority of decent programs will accomplish your goals.
The question is what’s a top school?
 
And what's a competitive residency?
BWH, MGH, UCSF, JHU are among the most competitive in IM. But even if you disagree, choose any program you consider competitive and look at the match results into that program, comparing scores and research of the applicants required. In terms of "top" medical schools, there is no cutoff where it suddenly becomes easier; it's a gradient. Whatever is currently "top 10" on usnews in general get a major boost. While there's subjectivity in what should be top 10 and this changes year to year, just look at the results from people who are from places who considered themselves in the range for the year and you will see they get a clear boost relative to those far from it. It doesn't mean 11 is any worse than 10 or 4 is worse than 3. The difference is only noticeable when you take large gaps.
 
BWH, MGH, UCSF, JHU are among the most competitive in IM. But even if you disagree, choose any program you consider competitive and look at the match results into that program, comparing scores and research of the applicants required. In terms of "top" medical schools, there is no cutoff where it suddenly becomes easier; it's a gradient. Whatever is currently "top 10" on usnews in general get a major boost. While there's subjectivity in what should be top 10 and this changes year to year, just look at the results from people who are from places who considered themselves in the range for the year and you will see they get a clear boost relative to those far from it. It doesn't mean 11 is any worse than 10 or 4 is worse than 3. The difference is only noticeable when you take large gaps.

Thanks, but my question was rhetorical.
 
What is the difference between other schools first 2 years?

All doctors learn thr *same* stuff, they pass the same standardized test..

If you do well in the test, and meet other criteria the sky is the limit..

There are more differences than you might imagine. Everybody has to learn a core set of skills and knowledge but the way it's learned varies widely. The way the curricula are divided also varies widely. That's why schools still on the traditional curriculum still exist - there's wide variation in curriculum and that's precisely why schools always tout their curricula during interview day. It's a distinguishing factor.

Harvard's curriculum is certainly unique - accelerated one-year path for Pathways and extensive clinical experience during medical school as well as basically a free year to do whatever you want with to enhance your resume. You don't get that at other schools with the exception of Duke.

Harvard med students based on data have some of the highest MCAT scores, it wouldn't be shocking if they had very high STEP scores either..
So of course they match well

The problem with meritocracy is that it's too idyllic. You're a realist. You must then realize that the way the world works isn't just that if you do well, you will have all the opportunities you want available to you. That's not how it works. The real world works by networking and connections. If you're working for a well-known person in the field, that person can put in a good word for you and tip the balance in your favor. That's how most of the employment industry works and it's not so different in medicine. Put the same person in a different place where you don't get the chance to work with someone well known, no matter how smart you are, you're not going to get that person who is somewhere else swinging for you.
 
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