How Much Do You Care About Money

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How Much Does Pay Factor into Being a Doctor

  • Medicine is a Business (100%)

    Votes: 15 7.5%

  • pay+job stability is the deciding factor (70%)

    Votes: 70 34.8%

  • Money is one of many factors that I consider equally (50%)

    Votes: 92 45.8%

  • As Long as I can survive, it is a privilage to save people (30%)

    Votes: 23 11.4%

  • Saving people is all I care (0)

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • Total voters
    201
S

Spiker

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Since there are so much debate I want to make a poll and see what the doctors in the future think.
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I care to the extent that I can repay my student loans, buy a house, and provide my family with a relatively comfortable life (e.g. if the car breaks we can fix it, I can send my kids to college, etc).

Beyond that, it's not a huge deal. Sure, I'd rather have more money than less, but I'm not hoping/expecting to become particularly wealthy. That's okay with me.
 
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Take the poll!! took me damn forever to make it, I tired to make it as unbiased wording as possible lol..
 
Spiker said:
Take the poll!! took me damn forever to make it, I tired to make it as unbiased wording as possible lol..
Click to expand...

I don't want to be rich or anything like that. I just don't want to go into major debt and having it weight on me in the back of my mind for every work day.

So today I'm going to think of ways to earn money to save up for rent costs, costs of books, money to pay for my own insurance, etc. If I can get most of the medical school costs to be mostly for tuition I will be doing good.
 
I always wanted a high pay job, and saving people is a huge extra.
 
We're no different than any other profession. At the end of the day, it's a job. I would like to use it to make life as easy as possible for my family and I in the future. Helping people is a huge plus (and is very awesome), but I'm definitely not in it because of that reason. Plumbers help people (and so do strippers for that matter).

I'm just like everyone else trying to make a buck :D
 
virusgirl said:
I care to the extent that I can repay my student loans, buy a house, and provide my family with a relatively comfortable life (e.g. if the car breaks we can fix it, I can send my kids to college, etc).

Beyond that, it's not a huge deal. Sure, I'd rather have more money than less, but I'm not hoping/expecting to become particularly wealthy. That's okay with me.
Click to expand...

My sentiments exactly.
 
Spiker said:
Since there are so much debate I want to make a poll and see what the doctors in the future think.
Click to expand...

The poll is flawed because it progresses from money being most important, to equally important, to being altruistic. I would suggest that the answer that encompasses 90% of the people going to med school for the right reasons falls somewhere between the top and bottom half of your poll. Meaning you can (and should) be going into medicine with NEITHER money nor altruism being your primary (or one of your primary) goals. These are nice perquisites, if you get them, but should never be the driving force. So your poll is flawed and I'd suggest the right answer is none of the above. I would suggest that if these are the only possibilities you can see, then you need to research your career decisions further because you are missing the ballgame.
 
3 people voted As Long as I can survive, it is a privilage to save people (30%)
lulz!
 
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Law2Doc said:
The poll is flawed because it progresses from money being most important, to equally important, to being altruistic. I would suggest that the answer that encompasses 90% of the people going to med school for the right reasons falls somewhere between the top and bottom half of your poll. Meaning you can (and should) be going into medicine with NEITHER money nor altruism being your primary (or one of your primary) goals. These are nice perquisites, if you get them, but should never be the driving force. So your poll is flawed and I'd suggest the right answer is none of the above. I would suggest that if these are the only possibilities you can see, then you need to research your career decisions further because you are missing the ballgame.
Click to expand...

dude no crap those 2 are not the only factors and this is flaw. There is inherent limitation in the capability in the forum system itself. I am just see how people weight between money and the desire to save people since clearly those two are major factors.
 
TheBateman said:
3 people voted As Long as I can survive, it is a privilage to save people (30%)
lulz!
Click to expand...

I actually expect more people voting for that from alot of arguments i seen in other threads
 
virusgirl said:
I care to the extent that I can repay my student loans, buy a house, and provide my family with a relatively comfortable life (e.g. if the car breaks we can fix it, I can send my kids to college, etc).

Beyond that, it's not a huge deal. Sure, I'd rather have more money than less, but I'm not hoping/expecting to become particularly wealthy. That's okay with me.
Click to expand...

Ah... That elusive comfortable lifestyle. Does that mean that slightly larger house with the nice back yard for the kids to play in. And what about that nice redwood swing set/firehouse/slide/jungle gym? Little Biffy and Muffy will surely deserve to go to that private kindergarten where all the other professional's kids go. It's only 22k/yr. You will want them to get a leg up on the admissions process for Snootington Primary so they can get a leg up on getting into Laxington Prep, so they can get a leg up on getting into Ivyton U. so they can get a leg up on........ wait!!!!! isn't this were I came in?
 
I'm the one in my large family who stores any money received from family on birthdays and Christmas in my drawer/bookshelf/desk and forgets about it for many years.

It's kind of funny; going through my room is like going through a gold mine because of all the forgotten money :laugh:
 
neurolddoc said:
Ah... That elusive comfortable lifestyle. Does that mean that slightly larger house with the nice back yard for the kids to play in. And what about that nice redwood swing set/firehouse/slide/jungle gym? Little Biffy and Muffy will surely deserve to go to that private kindergarten where all the other professional's kids go. It's only 22k/yr. You will want them to get a leg up on the admissions process for Snootington Primary so they can get a leg up on getting into Laxington Prep, so they can get a leg up on getting into Ivyton U. so they can get a leg up on........ wait!!!!! isn't this were I came in?
Click to expand...

Dude, what's with this overwhelming desire to put kids in private schools? Public schools are great learning experiences, too...I grew up mostly in the public school system (including for my undergraduate learning), and the only time I went to a private school (for high school), I hated it and wished that I went to a public school. Private schools feel too insulated, and I feel that you can't get a good sense of "street smarts" at most of them.
 
neurolddoc said:
Ah... That elusive comfortable lifestyle. Does that mean that slightly larger house with the nice back yard for the kids to play in. And what about that nice redwood swing set/firehouse/slide/jungle gym? Little Biffy and Muffy will surely deserve to go to that private kindergarten where all the other professional's kids go. It's only 22k/yr. You will want them to get a leg up on the admissions process for Snootington Primary so they can get a leg up on getting into Laxington Prep, so they can get a leg up on getting into Ivyton U. so they can get a leg up on........ wait!!!!! isn't this were I came in?
Click to expand...

I think you read a little too much into what I wrote... :rolleyes:
 
Spiker said:
dude no crap those 2 are not the only factors and this is flaw. There is inherent limitation in the capability in the forum system itself. I am just see how people weight between money and the desire to save people since clearly those two are major factors.
Click to expand...

My point is there is not a single response in your poll that I could honestly answer yes to. If there is no answer a lot of folks would agree with, then your poll doesn't accomplish what you are trying o. I would say these two ARE NOT THE MAJOR FACTORS. THAT'S MY POINT. You've missed the mark totally by making this assumption. In fact, they are of far less importance than, for instance, picking a career you are genuinely interested in. This is something you are going to be doing 60-80 hours/week for the next 45 years. If you don't enjoy it, it really doesn't matter that the income is good. Your life will suck if you dread getting up every morning. A job where you are living for the weekends only works if you are working 40 hours/week. Medicine is most frequently not such a job. As for "saving people", or "helping people" you frequently won't be. It's a nice warm fuzzy feeling when you do, but as a doctor, this won't be an every day thing. More often you will watch folks circle the drain and then die, despite your efforts. I'd say any poll that doesn't include the response -- "I'm going into medicine because it's what I'm genuinely interested in", then it's a farce.
 
phospho said:
We're no different than any other profession. At the end of the day, it's a job. I would like to use it to make life as easy as possible for my family and I in the future. Helping people is a huge plus (and is very awesome), but I'm definitely not in it because of that reason. Plumbers help people (and so do strippers for that matter).

I'm just like everyone else trying to make a buck :D
Click to expand...


How do strippers help people?
 
virusgirl said:
I care to the extent that I can repay my student loans, buy a house, and provide my family with a relatively comfortable life (e.g. if the car breaks we can fix it, I can send my kids to college, etc).

Beyond that, it's not a huge deal. Sure, I'd rather have more money than less, but I'm not hoping/expecting to become particularly wealthy. That's okay with me.
Click to expand...
agreed
 
If "pay+job stability" were not the deciding factor then I imagine that far greater numbers of premeds would be going to graduate school to enter academic fields relating to the areas of human biology that most interest them. "pay+job stability" is the reason I am not going into academics and instead am pursuing medicine.

I think this poll needs to be more clear in its category descriptions. E.g. "pay+job stability" should be renamed to "relative wealth is the deciding factor in making me choose medicine over the other career was considering".
 
1. I care about money a lot. Have you ever tried living without it? It fails every time.

jtimmer1 said:
That is a pretty bold claim.
Click to expand...

2. No it isn't. 250K is plenty, given that basically the most usable free time a working adult can have in a week is around 50 hours. I sure as hell won't be cutting that down by 40% so I can drive a Rolls instead of a Bimmer.
 
Personally I want to be able to pay off loans, own a decent house and have the means to afford a comfortable life for my own family. Anything extra is just gravy. :D
 
DNM said:
Personally I want to be able to pay off loans, own a decent house and have the means to afford a comfortable life for my own family. Anything extra is just gravy. :D
Click to expand...

I'm the same as well. Going into $200,000 of debt to make $100,000 is not worth it. Instead I've decided to get the PhD and do a fellowship in clinical biochemical genetics (or two other options) and make a living that way.
 
DOquestions said:
I'm the same as well. Going into $200,000 of debt to make $100,000 is not worth it. Instead I've decided to get the PhD and do a fellowship in clinical biochemical genetics (or two other options) and make a living that way.
Click to expand...

Really? 100k/year x 35 years = 3.5 million - 400k debt = 3.1 million dollar net income gain. I don't know about you but few things seem more worth it to me.

But considering you may be making upwards of 250k/year than you would be making 3.5 - 8.75 million for 200k debt plus interest.
 
NotAndrew said:
Really? 100k/year x 35 years = 3.5 million - 400k debt = 3.1 million dollar net income gain. I don't know about you but few things seem more worth it to me.

But considering you may be making upwards of 250k/year than you would be making 3.5 - 8.75 million for 200k debt plus interest.
Click to expand...

Training period: PhD = 5 x $26,000 = $130,000
Fellowship: 2 X $50,000 = $100,000
Job: $100,000 x 35 = $3,500,000

$3,500,000 + $100,000 + $130,000 = $3,730,000

$3,730,000 - $400,000 = $3,330,000.

During PhD and fellowship training I can still do my writing job = $24,000/year. 7 x 24,000 = $168,000

$3,730,000 + 168,000 = $3,898,000

Potential difference of around $500,000

WSU/DMC offers a two-year fellowship in molecular genetics. This program is open to individuals with a US earned doctoral degree (MD, DO, PhD or equivalent; see Eligibility and Requirements, for international applicants). If the candidate has already successfully completed a Medical Genetics Residency, only a one-year fellowship is required. The clinical molecular genetics fellow receives extensive molecular genetics laboratory training. After successful completion of the program, the clinical molecular geneticist would have completed the requirements to direct a clinical molecular genetics laboratory with the training necesary to analyze and interpret molecular abnormalities and act as a consultant for physicians regarding laboratory diagnosis for a broad range of molecular conditions. In addition, the fellow would be eligible to sit for the certification examination in Clinical Molecular Genetics offered by the American Board of Medical Genetics.

So the question comes down to the difference of $500,000.

Edit: http://jobs.phds.org/job/12720/grow...laboratory-director-of-cytogenetics-molecular

http://www.jobtarget.com/c2/job.cfm...fb747090e-01646490-9793-AB3E-4E0FA214F9D43A53

http://mahospitalcareers.com/viewjob.php?id=2307
 
Last edited:
Wait...we will get paid for this?!

I thought I just had to keep paying OTHER people money to be a doctor...

(MCAT+undergrad+applications+med school) time = severe negative cash flow
 
DOquestions said:
Training period: PhD = 5 x $26,000 = $130,000
Fellowship: 2 X $50,000 = $100,000
Job: $100,000 x 35 = $3,500,000

$3,500,000 + $100,000 + $130,000 = $3,730,000

$3,730,000 - $400,000 = $3,330,000.

During PhD and fellowship training I can still do my writing job = $24,000/year. 7 x 24,000 = $168,000

$3,730,000 + 168,000 = $3,898,000

Potential difference of around $500,000

WSU/DMC offers a two-year fellowship in molecular genetics. This program is open to individuals with a US earned doctoral degree (MD, DO, PhD or equivalent; see Eligibility and Requirements, for international applicants). If the candidate has already successfully completed a Medical Genetics Residency, only a one-year fellowship is required. The clinical molecular genetics fellow receives extensive molecular genetics laboratory training. After successful completion of the program, the clinical molecular geneticist would have completed the requirements to direct a clinical molecular genetics laboratory with the training necesary to analyze and interpret molecular abnormalities and act as a consultant for physicians regarding laboratory diagnosis for a broad range of molecular conditions. In addition, the fellow would be eligible to sit for the certification examination in Clinical Molecular Genetics offered by the American Board of Medical Genetics.

So the question comes down to the difference of $500,000.

Edit: http://jobs.phds.org/job/12720/grow...laboratory-director-of-cytogenetics-molecular

http://www.jobtarget.com/c2/job.cfm...fb747090e-01646490-9793-AB3E-4E0FA214F9D43A53

http://mahospitalcareers.com/viewjob.php?id=2307
Click to expand...

Here is an example of an MD job:

Big 12 University Pediatric Genetics
Compensation
Salary will be negotiated based upon academic rank and each candidate's individual qualifications and potential contributions to the department—likely between $105,000-135,000—with room for negotiation. Relocation expenses covered up to 10% of salary 20 days vacation 10 days for CME/$3,000 or 1% of previous year's salary Relocation stipend can be negotiated Extensive benefits package for retirement and health benefits (summary of benefits available upon request)



http://mdjobsite.com/index2.cfm?page=Jobs_View&ID=2514414&Source=Juju

So it comes down to this. Is it worth it to go into major debt or not to have basically the same end salary? The only differences might be the ceiling of what one can achieve (aka the limitations).

This one is very interesting: http://jobview.monster.com/GetJob.aspx?JobID=78778512&from=indeed
 
Last edited:
Obviously $ matters. I hate being a poor college kid now :( That being said, as a full-out physician(after residency etc) I would hope to make at least 150K a year.
 
doxycycline said:
Obviously $ matters. I hate being a poor college kid now :( That being said, as a full-out physician(after residency etc) I would hope to make at least 150K a year.
Click to expand...

The nice thing is that medical school will always be there even when you are 30, 35, 40, 45, and even 50.

I think we are going to see changes with a lot of things in our society for costs. Maybe it would be wise to still continue down the road of preparing for medical school but holding out for a few years to see what changes are made (with medical school costs).
 
If you got money, and you know it
Take it out your pocket and show it
Then throw it like
This a way
That a way
This a way
That a way
If you get mugged from everybody you see
Then hang over the wall of the VIP like
This a way
That a way
This a way
That a way

oh... and, i like to help people. :)

(too much partying lately... sigh)
 
call me
so i can make it juicy fa ya
call me
so i can get it juicy fa ya

qmcat said:
If you got money, and you know it
Take it out your pocket and show it
Then throw it like
This a way
That a way
This a way
That a way
If you get mugged from everybody you see
Then hang over the wall of the VIP like
This a way
That a way
This a way
That a way

oh... and, i like to help people. :)

(too much partying lately... sigh)
Click to expand...
 
I voted it's one of the many factors. Of course, if medicine only paid $100k/year there's no way in hell I'd do it - there's plenty of other jobs where I can earn $100k/year after a decade of experience. But for what it is now, it's a cool job with its ups and downs. I feel that $200k/year+ is a very nice trade off for all the years spent working.
 
"If you're good at something, never do it for free."

The Joker
 
personally, i like job security the most. but with all the hardships we'll have to go through, we deserve that much money.
 
NotAndrew said:
Really? 100k/year x 35 years = 3.5 million - 400k debt = 3.1 million dollar net income gain. I don't know about you but few things seem more worth it to me.

But considering you may be making upwards of 250k/year than you would be making 3.5 - 8.75 million for 200k debt plus interest.
Click to expand...
maybe im wrong but... is this you saying you plan on making more money? Beause that is most certainly not the case...

The extra 5 years it takes for you to get your PHD you are missing out on >$500000 in lost wages.
 
eye herd dawkters mayk millions of buxx.
 
So, I'm kind of curious... what field/profession gives someone the best chance of becoming rich? Let's arbitrarily say "rich" is earning upper six figures a year.
 
NotAndrew said:
Really? 100k/year x 35 years = 3.5 million - 400k debt = 3.1 million dollar net income gain. I don't know about you but few things seem more worth it to me.

But considering you may be making upwards of 250k/year than you would be making 3.5 - 8.75 million for 200k debt plus interest.
Click to expand...

First, $250k is higher than what the average physician earns. The US Department of labor (linked to a salary story on the cover page of SDN) indicates an average physician salary of about $150k. An article in the AMSA magazine a year ago indicated the average for physicians was $209k and declining against inflation. The actual average is probably somewhere between these two figures. So if you are counting on $250k you may be misinformed. Plus bear in mind that a lot of people don't reach the average, and to some extent the above average incomes are received by folks many years further down the road who "got in when the getting was good" and whose salaries will not be duplicable.

Second, you can't just sum up annual incomes over years. There is a concept of "time value of money" by which all of finance works. Premeds seem to be pretty unique in how little they understand of this -- you wouldn't see the same confusion on a lot of other preprofessional boards -- probably a result of taking too many prereqs and not enough "important" college subjects. But anyway, the first rule of finance is that getting $100 today is worth a lot more than $100 ten years from now. So over 35 years, you need to apply a discount rate because it's not $100,000 times 35, it's $100,000 times 35 less a discount rate compounded annually. (this is why the business school types have to spend so much money for those fancy HP calculators). And similarly your debt will be growing by a compounded interest rate. So the lifetime income is MUCH LOWER than you are suggesting, and the lifetime debt is MUCH HIGHER.

When you see folks winning Lotto and having the choice of $250k now or $1,000,000 paid as an annuity paid over, say 20 years, the company is willing to do this because those sums are EXACTLY the same. It's not like you are making 4 times more with the latter choice. The company doesn't care which you pick because they are setting aside the same amount of money for you either way. Your income/debt analysis has to work the same way.

A corollary to the above financial rule is that very often earning less earlier ends up being more when you apply the discount rates. So a dude who is going to earn, say $200k starting 10 years from now, and borrowing several hundred grand in tuition debt probably never catches up to to the guy who started earning $90k with no debt this year, when you apply the appropriate discount and interest rates.

You won't go broke in medicine, but you will if you invest with the kind of math you described in the above post. :laugh: I think your post is a good argument for why all premeds ought to be required to take a basic finance course. It's scary to think that such educated people are going to be taken for a ride as easily as the typical sports star who gets robbed by his accountant.
 
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