How much does med school reputation matter for top-tier competitive specialty residency?

[akwho]

As someone who is going through the match process now for a competitive surgical subspecialty, I will respectfully disagree with the majority of posters in this thread. At most of the elite academic programs I've been to for interview, the top-15 medical schools are heavily over-represented among the interviewees, and almost all the applicants being interviewed are from top-30 medical schools. The elite academic residents are certainly almost all from top-15 medical schools with the occasional exception. Luckily this is not the case at good middle-tier and community programs where the barriers to entry are not as high.

Everyone always wants to know, "what's most important" to match a competitive specialty. Is it 3rd year grades, AOA, Step 1, Step 2, LOR's, research, leadership EC's, med school name, aways, or is it connections? The answer is simple, everything is most important if you want to match at elite programs in a competitive specialty. There are few degrees of separation at the top strata of applicants and the name of the game is you are trying to build an application package that looks superior to your peers. So you will have to do everything right to succeed, including going to the "right" medical school.

I've found that high Step 1, AOA and my med school name were extremely helpful for acquiring interviews. Then the rest of the application package (research, EC's, LORs) + the interview (most important) are what gets you ranked to match per the residents above me.


This is a n=1 experience in a very specific situation, competitive subspecialty, at the most competitive programs. So this advice probably only applies to about 1,000 out of the 41,000 people going into the match each year. For the majority of people I agree with the White Coat Investor -- choose the cheapest option available to you. Medical education is widely standardized and you will self-study for the most part anyway.

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[DokterMom]

As someone who is going through the match process now for a competitive surgical subspecialty, I will respectfully disagree with the majority of posters in this thread. At most of the elite academic programs I've been to for interview, the top-15 medical schools are heavily over-represented among the interviewees, and almost all the applicants being interviewed are from top-30 medical schools. The elite academic residents are certainly almost all from top-15 medical schools with the occasional exception. Luckily this is not the case at good middle-tier and community programs where the barriers to entry are not as high.

Doesn't surprise me a bit. I'd be curious if other SDNers who are or have recently applied for highly-competitive specialties at elite academic programs experience the same. Hopefully they'll chime in.

 

[libraryismyhome]

What??? Then why everyone was mad when i posted the list of lower tier medical schools?

Everyone was like "Rank doesnt matter. My dick is bigger. You are a troll. This is so premed."

 

[235009]

What??? Then why everyone was mad when i posted the list of lower tier medical schools?

Everyone was like "Rank doesnt matter. My dick is bigger. You are a troll. This is so premed."

Ego protection

 

[Cytarabine]

What??? Then why everyone was mad when i posted the list of lower tier medical schools?

Everyone was like "Rank doesnt matter. My dick is bigger. You are a troll. This is so premed."

Honestly I don't think lower tier matters. It matters to be upper tier, like top 30, but outside of strong name brand I don't think a is much different from b

 

[Psai]

What??? Then why everyone was mad when i posted the list of lower tier medical schools?

Everyone was like "Rank doesnt matter. My dick is bigger. You are a troll. This is so premed."

Probably because it was an inaccurate list coming from a nobody website, not because rank doesn't matter

 

[libraryismyhome]

I would say it was pretty accurate though it was not from the reputable website.
It never did something totally wrong like placing DO schools equivalent to TOP 30s.
Maybe it wasn't the most accurate list cause their school was in it.


The number 1 lower tier medical school here is SUNY Downstate and the lowest medical school is Charles R Drew Osteopathic


Startclass labeled these schools as "Lower Tier Medical School."

Source: http://medical-schools.startclass.com


SUNY Downstate Medical Center×
Sanford School of Medicine×
Herbert Wertheim College of Medicine×
Loma Linda School of Medicine×
Texas A&M Health Science Center×
The Charles E. Schmidt College of Medicine×
Louisville School of Medicine×
Texas Tech School of Medicine×
South Carolina School of Medicine×
University of Minnesota Medical School Duluth×
Drexel University College of Medicine×
Penn State Hershey College of Medicine×
Tulane University School of Medicine×
Medical College of Georgia (MCG)×
The University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston×
Albany School of Medicine×
UC Riverside School of Medicine×
Toledo School of Medicine×
University of Central Florida College of Medicine×
Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine×
North Dakota School of Medicine×
SUNY Upstate School of Medicine×
Nevada School of Medicine×
Howard University College of Medicine×
Neomed School of Medicine×
Southern Illinois School of Medicine×
Louisiana State University School of Medicine×
New York Medical College×
South Alabama School of Medicine×
James H. Quillen COM×
University of Missouri Kansas City School of Medicine×
Mercer School of Medicine×
Joan C. Edwards School of Medicine×
Shreveport School of Medicine×
Florida State University College of Medicine×
Central Michigan University College of Medicine×
Meharry School of Medicine×
Frank H. Netter School of Medicine - Quinnipiac University×
San Juan Bautista School of Medicine×
Ponce School of Medicine×
Universidad Central del Caribe School of Medicine×
Puerto Rico School of Medicine×
Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine×
Mississippi School of Medicine×
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine×
Pacific Northwest University of Health Sciences×
Rutgers Robert Wood Johnson Medical School×
Edward VCOM Carolinas Campus×
ATSU - School of Osteopathic Medicine in Arizona×
Ohio University Heritage College of Osteopathic Medicine×
Western Michigan University Homer Stryker School of Medicine×
KCUMB College of Osteopathic Medicine×
WesternU College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific×
LMU - DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine×
Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine×
ATSU of Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine×
TUCOM - NV School of Osteopathic Medicine×
Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine×
Oklahoma State University College of Osteopathic Medicine×
Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine×
NYIT College of Osteopathic Medicine×
UNT Health Science Center×
DMU College of Osteopathic Medicine×
Marian University College of Osteopathic Medicine×
TUCOM - CA School of Osteopathic Medicine×
Campbell University School of Osteopathic Medicine×
Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine×
LECOM Bradenton Campus×
Edward VCOM Virginia Campus×
NSU College of Osteopathic Medicine×
Pikeville Kentucky College of Medicine×
WCU College of Osteopathic Medicine×
UNECOM School of Osteopathic Medicine×
Georgia Campus PCOM×
Rowan University School of Osteopathic medicine×
West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine×
Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science×

 

[Psai]

Yup

Are you a general surgeon

 

[WedgeDawg]

Doesn't surprise me a bit. I'd be curious if other SDNers who are or have recently applied for highly-competitive specialties at elite academic programs experience the same. Hopefully they'll chime in.

4th years I've talked to at my school tell me their interviews (and SubIs) have a strong overrepresentation of top school students, but not an exclusive monopoly.

 

[Slack3r]

4th years I've talked to at my school tell me their interviews (and SubIs) have a strong overrepresentation of top school students, but not an exclusive monopoly.

Of course there's not a complete monopoly, but there is a definite preference.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Of course there's not a complete monopoly, but there is a definite preference.

For the record, I agree with you and this general sentiment.

 

[Hangry]

Are you a general surgeon

Gen surg is very competitive at the top. Just like IM

 

[Mansamusa]

Would you say that top med school students are more overrepresented at top residency interviews than top undergrad grads are at top med school interviews?

 

[Moko]

Would you say that top med school students are more overrepresented at top residency interviews than top undergrad grads are at top med school interviews?

For internal medicine, I would say that 'top' med schools are very over-represented at 'top' residency interviews. I can't say if the situation is worse than how it was for med school interviews, but subjectively, the over-representation doesn't get better. I didn't meet a single person from a 'lower tier' med school (from the list posted above) when interviewing at the more prestigious institutions, almost everyone came from very well-known med schools (n=1).

 

[IlDestriero]

It matters. Other things matter more.
This isn't new information.
Search harder.

 

[Psai]

Gen surg is very competitive at the top. Just like IM

That wasn't the question

 

[Hangry]

That wasn't the question

Well in that case, your answer is not yet: he is a general surgery resident. But I am surprised you didn't know that already with as much as you are on here. That's why I answered the way I did above.

 

[operaman]

Doesn't surprise me a bit. I'd be curious if other SDNers who are or have recently applied for highly-competitive specialties at elite academic programs experience the same. Hopefully they'll chime in.

I experienced this too but maybe not to the degree implied in this thread. I think there's a strong element of skewed perception at play here. I recall many applicants from top schools but I recall just as many applicants from state Us like me.

I definitely noticed some patterns

1) by the end of the trail I realized that i knew 80-90% of the people at any given interview. Seems like the 30-40 interview slots at each program were distributed among the same 70-80 applicants.

2) regional patterns were far more noticeable to me than prestige patterns, especially on the coasts

3) more than anything, strong and prestigious departments were heavily represented. These don't always correlate with prestige of the affiliated medical school. LORs are huge in smaller surgical fields - arguably more important than anything else (because all the other numbers are just assumed). This is definitely one way that a top school can help because they do tend to have strong departments and well known letter writers, but there are some huge names and incredibly strong departments outside the Top 10-20 of medical schools. I definitely had multiple interviewers at top programs say the letters are what got me the interview.

i think school prestige definitely matters but I also believe the nuance of that discussion is beyond what most premeds can process (as evidenced by many of the posts on this thread). To keep it simple, no you can't go anywhere coming from any med school, but the ones from which you can and the ones from which you can't may not be quite so intuitive.

Finally, the selection bias inherent is this discussion is not something to be glossed over. Innate ability is not equal between students and the top schools will tend to recruit the top students in the applicant pool. Is anyone surprised that these same students filter to the top residencies? When someone declines offers from top 10s to take a full ride at their state u, is anyone surprised when he or she ends up at interviews for top residency programs anyhow? For such people, school name may not really matter much. Now consider a middle of the road average applicant with truly average ability who gets into his state U and by some miracle eeks in off the wait list at a top school despite being below their averages - I think the prestigious school could make a profound difference for him.

Unfortunately, nobody really knows where they will ultimately land on the medical bell curve, so we advise people to go to the best school they can get.

 

[playingfrombehind]

For top-tier residency programs in competitive specialties like ortho/opthalmo/derm/plastics/rad-onc, how much does the difference between a low-tier vs. top-tier med school make? And in what sense specifically? And is there anything that the low-tier med student can do to compensate?

On one hand, I read on several forums that the med school reputation is make-or-break for the top-tier residency programs; on the other hand, on these programs' webpages, many residents are from mid-tier or low-tier state schools (the majority, of course, were still from big-name institutions).

I checked the NRMP; it ranks med school reputation at 23rd, but it only gives averages of all residency programs across and within specialties.

I definitely think reputation matters - especially if you are applying to top tiered schools for top tier programs (i.e. ROADS specialties) and you have never done a rotation there (and you aren't a local candidate). There are many factors to consider but school reputation will never over-ride USMLE scores, GPA, letters, dean's letter (which lists potential red flags), and of course if you've done an actual audition rotation (and had excellent results).

So reputation matters but I think the above factors in bold are much more important and you want to make sure you go to a med school where you "fit" so you can achieve the above bolded terms

 

[CherryRedDracul]

I would say it was pretty accurate though it was not from the reputable website.
It never did something totally wrong like placing DO schools equivalent to TOP 30s.
Maybe it wasn't the most accurate list cause their school was in it.


The number 1 lower tier medical school here is SUNY Downstate and the lowest medical school is Charles R Drew Osteopathic


Startclass labeled these schools as "Lower Tier Medical School."

Source: http://medical-schools.startclass.com

Those rankings are hot garbage. There are schools in the lower tier category simply because Startclass couldn't be arsed to fill in some of the median GPA and MCAT data, automatically banishing them to the bottom; for at least one of the schools, I know the data is right on the school website.

 

[charmiedermie]

Here is HMS 2015 IM match list

Internal Medicine
BWH
BWH
BWH
BWH
BWH
Columbia
MGH
MGH
MGH
MGH
MGH
MGH
MGH
MGH
MGH
MGH
MGH
MGH
MGH
MT Sinai
Northwestern
Stanford
Stanford
Stanford
UCSF
UCSF
UChicago
UMichigan
UWashington
Vanderbilt
Yale

So out of 31 Harvard grads going for Internal Medicine, their "worst" graduate got into UChicago, still a top tier program. I think most of us would kill for those type of odds. And this assumes, that preferred geography had no role, which it obviously does.

Program directors annually rank the factors they use, and consistently put this one toward the bottom. So I find it curious that folks on SDN think they know better -- that's the only "ego" I see in play here.

Prestige isn't like class rank, AOA, or number of publications that are objective. It's more a feeling that influences everything else. No PD in their right mind will immediately say out loud that prestige of med school matters a huge deal because it makes them look bad and will possibly get less applicants applying to their program.

 

[christmasindr]

Coming from top tier schools will be very helpful, but not coming from those schools doesn't necessarily mean closing any doors. Plenty of med students graduating from other schools end up doing competitive specialties in many great programs. Too many SDNers think that coming from a top school means you can slack off, and that is simply not true. Don't underestimate the value of hard work, kindness, and dedication: those qualities will help you get to places no matter what school you are from.

 

[Psai]

Coming from top tier schools will be very helpful, but not coming from those schools doesn't necessarily mean closing any doors. Plenty of med students graduating from other schools end up doing competitive specialties in many great programs. Too many SDNers think that coming from a top school means you can slack off, and that is simply not true. Don't underestimate the value of hard work, kindness, and dedication: those qualities will help you get to places no matter what school you are from.

Op is asking about top tier programs in competitive specialties. They are definifely full of top candidates from top tier schools, mostly because when everyone is top notch, you can afford to discriminate like that

 

[alpinism]

Coming from top tier schools will be very helpful, but not coming from those schools doesn't necessarily mean closing any doors. Plenty of med students graduating from other schools end up doing competitive specialties in many great programs. Too many SDNers think that coming from a top school means you can slack off, and that is simply not true. Don't underestimate the value of hard work, kindness, and dedication: those qualities will help you get to places no matter what school you are from.

You can be the hardest working, kindest, and most dedicated med student in the world, but if you go to Southern Illinois University, have never lived in California, and have a 220 step 1 there's a 95% chance you won't be going to Stanford or UCSF for residency. And I'm not just talking about competitive specialties.

The same thing can't be said for students at Harvard or Hopkins.

 

[christmasindr]

You can be the hardest working, kindest, and most dedicated med student in the world, but if you go to Southern Illinois University, have never lived in California, and have a 220 step 1 there's a 95% chance you won't be going to Stanford or UCSF for residency. And I'm not just talking about competitive specialties.

The same thing can't be said for students at Harvard or Hopkins.

Please read my message carefully. I never said that someone who has below average score, etc. from a lower tier school can go anywhere they want. I am simply stating that NOT coming from a top school doesn't close any doors if you do very well. Plenty of people coming from top schools matching into good residency programs not just because of the names, but also because they are smart and hard working individuals to begin with. A lot of people thinking that they are graduating from top schools, so all residency directors should bow to them just because of that, and that's simply not true. If you want to match into competitive residency at top programs, you work hard either way. I will leave it at that. This thread is becoming unproductive.

 

[Psai]

Please read my message carefully. I never said that someone who has below average score, etc. from a lower tier school can go anywhere they want. I am simply stating that NOT coming from a top school doesn't close any doors if you do very well. Plenty of people coming from top schools matching into good residency programs not just because of the names, but also because they are smart and hard working individuals to begin with. A lot of people thinking that they are graduating from top schools, so all residency directors should bow to them just because of that, and that's simply not true. If you want to match into competitive residency at top programs, you work hard either way. I will leave it at that. This thread is becoming unproductive.

You are wrong. The top doors are closed.

 

[christmasindr]

You are wrong. The top doors are closed.

Not true. That's too extreme. I know plenty of folks from non-top tier schools who match/interview at top programs for competitive specialties. Again, this thread is not helping anyone. I think the moderator should just close it.

 

[Snoopy2006]

Not true. That's too extreme. I know plenty of folks from non-top tier schools who match/interview at top programs for competitive specialties. Again, this thread is not helping anyone. I think the moderator should just close it.

If all unhelpful threads were closed, certain forums (I'm looking at you, pre-allo) would be barren.

This topic is one area where my experience differs from conventional SDN wisdom. In my experience, med school reputation has appeared to matter to a certain degree. Being on the other side now and looking through hundreds of flawless applications, you can start to see why perceived caliber of med school starts to play a role - it's so hard to divide up these applications otherwise.

That said, doors are almost never completely closed. My own perfectly run-of-the-mill med school sent people into residency at MGH, UCSF, Stanford, among others. But they were exceptional students who got strong LORs on their aways. Those are exceptions rather than the rule. I do believe that equivalent students from "top-ranked" schools had an easier time getting interviews.

 

[throwaway1939]

i thought i'd chime in; i go to a low tier school but with great stats, applied IM, and received interviews from a number of top 20 places. at literally every single one, i was the odd man out and i was surrounded by people from top 20 medical schools. at hopkins, literally out of 40 people, i was the only one not from a top 20 school. i dunno, but it made me extremely insecure and worried about match day. mentally, i'm preparing myself to match outside of my top 6, but we'll see.

name matters a ****ing ton. if you think it doesn't, then you are fooling yourself. imo, it matters almost as much as board/grades, especially because grades at these schools are usually inflated anyways. for example, our HP standards are equivalent to an H at the local state school (which is ~top 40). i would have rather had a 240 and gone to a top 20 than a 260 from a low tier medical school.

 

[Cytarabine]

You are wrong. The top doors are closed.

I'm from a sub 100. We've had people go to top programs for ortho, uro, etc. A classmate and I going into med peds have both interviewed at ~half of the top handful of programs, and I've met people in the interview trail from comparable schools doing the same or better. Every post I've made in this thread has said prestige matters, but at the vast majority of places you're not locked out without it.

 

[masaraksh]

i thought i'd chime in; i go to a low tier school but with great stats, applied IM, and received interviews from a number of top 20 places. at literally every single one, i was the odd man out and i was surrounded by people from top 20 medical schools. at hopkins, literally out of 40 people, i was the only one not from a top 20 school. i dunno, but it made me extremely insecure and worried about match day. mentally, i'm preparing myself to match outside of my top 6, but we'll see.

name matters a ****ing ton. if you think it doesn't, then you are fooling yourself. imo, it matters almost as much as board/grades, especially because grades at these schools are usually inflated anyways. for example, our HP standards are equivalent to an H at the local state school (which is ~top 40). i would have rather had a 240 and gone to a top 20 than a 260 from a low tier medical school.

ouch

 

[christmasindr]

I'm from a sub 100. We've had people go to top programs for ortho, uro, etc. A classmate and I going into med peds have both interviewed at ~half of the top handful of programs, and I've met people in the interview trail from comparable schools doing the same or better. Every post I've made in this thread has said prestige matters, but at the vast majority of places you're not locked out without it.

Agree. Prestige is very helpful. But not be all, end all. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Anicetus]

Agree. Prestige is very helpful. But not be all, end all. I'll leave it at that.

If you go to the Caribbean, it's not an end all be all for matching in the U.S.

If you shoot yourself in the foot it's not an end all be all that for being able to walk again.

This thread is crazy.

 

[TaroBubbleTea]

Coming from top tier schools will be very helpful, but not coming from those schools doesn't necessarily mean closing any doors. Plenty of med students graduating from other schools end up doing competitive specialties in many great programs. Too many SDNers think that coming from a top school means you can slack off, and that is simply not true. Don't underestimate the value of hard work, kindness, and dedication: those qualities will help you get to places no matter what school you are from.

This is not meant to be sarcastic, but I am genuinely curious as to where you got that impression because I haven't really seen/noticed it. I doubt the type of people who get into top schools are the type to slack off.

 

[christmasindr]

This is not meant to be sarcastic, but I am genuinely curious as to where you got that impression because I haven't really seen/noticed it. I doubt the type of people who get into top schools are the type to slack off.

No, sorry for the confusion. I didn't say that people who get into top schools slack off. What I said was that a lot of SDNers assume students from top school can simply sail and not having to work hard to get into top residency programs, and that's not true.

 

[managedcarefin]

So many people in this thread are saying what they feel instead of saying what is actually going on. From a program director at top academic medical center "We reserve spots for students of our affiliated school and the rest of the spots go to students who could have attended our affiliated medical school"

Direct quote.

 

[IlDestriero]

So many people in this thread are saying what they feel instead of saying what is actually going on. From a program director at top academic medical center "We reserve spots for students of our affiliated school and the rest of the spots go to students who could have attended our affiliated medical school"

Direct quote.

So that translates to be a bad ass with monster scores and you can get in here too. Incest is a known characteristic of the big boys. They love to take their own superstars because they already know them and the system, this can be a double edged sword though. This continues at the fellowship level and again with networking for coveted jobs.