How much does patient care experience matter?

[not2oldyet]

I am wondering how much clinical experience matters when applying. I have over 10 years experience working in the prehospital setting on a 911 ambulance as well as a flight medic. My GPA isn't very great, about a 3.3 right now. How much will my experience help me get over that? What "tier" schools should I think about?

Thanks.

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[drizzt3117]

I am wondering how much clinical experience matters when applying. I have over 10 years experience working in the prehospital setting on a 911 ambulance as well as a flight medic. My GPA isn't very great, about a 3.3 right now. How much will my experience help me get over that? What "tier" schools should I think about?

Thanks.

Low tier. It will help but there are plenty of low stat ppl applying with lots of clinical experience.

 

[LizzyM]

Obviously, you are a non-traditional applicant and your years of work experience and maturity will be a plus. However, the first question an admissions officer asks is "does this one have the intellectual horsepower and the study skills to manage the first two years of medical school?" Most often the ability to handle the academic demands of the first 2 years is estimated by how well the applicant has done in undergraduate studies. Likewise, the MCAT is useful in determining one's ability to do well on a timed test of material taught in the classroom (much like the Step 1 exam tests the material taught in the first 2 years of medical school). Without evidence that you can get through the first 2 years of medical school, the fact that you have performed well in task-oriented pre-hospital care is moot.

One general suggestion for choosing schools is based on comparing your gpa*10 + MCAT to the average gpa (10) + average MCAT at schools of interest to you. With a 3.3 you are going to need a huge MCAT and/or really target schools that will value your prior experience and goals.

 

[ILikeDrugs]

With a 3.3 you are going to need a huge MCAT and/or really target schools that will value your prior experience and goals.

What do you consider huge?

 

[LizzyM]

What do you consider huge?

a balanced 37 or higher (not less than 10 in any section).... isnt' that about the top 3-5% of test takers?

 

[JJMrK]

a balanced 37 or higher (not less than 10 in any section).... isnt' that about the top 3-5% of test takers?

Yes. (top 3%)

 

[not2oldyet]

One general suggestion for choosing schools is based on comparing your gpa*10 + MCAT to the average gpa (10) + average MCAT at schools of interest to you. With a 3.3 you are going to need a huge MCAT and/or really target schools that will value your prior experience and goals.

Which schools value experience more? Or how do I go about finding them? Are DO schools a better fit?

 

[wanderer]

Which schools value experience more? Or how do I go about finding them? Are DO schools a better fit?

Try to contact students from different schools (or someone who knows these students) and ask if there was a high portion of non-trads. Read up on the websites of different schools and try to infer if they highly value things like work experience. See if their secondary questions point to these experiences. If a school has a high avg starting age, that might be a clue as to what they look for as well.

 

[not2oldyet]

Try to contact students from different schools (or someone who knows these students) and ask if there was a high portion of non-trads. Read up on the websites of different schools and try to infer if they highly value things like work experience. See if their secondary questions point to these experiences. If a school has a high avg starting age, that might be a clue as to what they look for as well.

Umm, forgive me if this is a rather dumb question, but I am new to this site and doing more research for my application. How do you get in contact with current students? Is there a section here where I can find students from the different schools? Where can I find the secondary questions?

 

[wanderer]

Umm, forgive me if this is a rather dumb question, but I am new to this site and doing more research for my application. How do you get in contact with current students? Is there a section here where I can find students from the different schools? Where can I find the secondary questions?

To find current students either network (which might be possible considering your work experience) or I guess go into school-specific threads and ask those questions. Maybe email a bunch of schools about what they think, but be prepared for stock answers.

Secondary questions, are in the school specific threads in one of the subforums.
Also look through MDapps I guess. (Just google MDapplicants.) If you find an interesting profile try to get into contact with them.

Also: Did you complete all the pre-reqs over 10 years ago? If so, some schools would want to see more recent work.

 

[not2oldyet]

Also: Did you complete all the pre-reqs over 10 years ago? If so, some schools would want to see more recent work.

No, I've just came back and have been completing my degree/ prereqs. That is part of the contribution to a poor GPA, when I was younger my GPA was rather poor.

 

[ILikeDrugs]

12-12-13.
Doable!

Then again, I've never taken an MCAT or even the practice tests so I'm just blowin hot air outta my a55. I guess I'll know by ~March.

You can do it op.

 

[gravitywave]

not2oldyet,

this is definitely doable for you. i don't think anyone has mentioned yet that patient care experience is probably the most important extracurricular that you can have on your med school application. you already have many times more hours of that experience, and at a higher level of responsibility, than almost every other applicant. so, you're covered there

consider that you have, what, 100 credits undergrad now? 40 credits more at 4.0 and you have a 3.5, which is really the minimum to be competitive at most MD programs. nail your remaining classes, ace the MCAT, you've got a great shot.

 

[drizzt3117]

there's a difference between patient care experience and clinical volunteering, which is what you're referring to in terms of the most important EC.

Honestly, patient care experience as a midlevel, while useful, isn't the same thing as patient care experience as a medical student, resident, or attending.

not2oldyet,

this is definitely doable for you. i don't think anyone has mentioned yet that patient care experience is probably the most important extracurricular that you can have on your med school application. you already have many times more hours of that experience, and at a higher level of responsibility, than almost every other applicant. so, you're covered there

consider that you have, what, 100 credits undergrad now? 40 credits more at 4.0 and you have a 3.5, which is really the minimum to be competitive at most MD programs. nail your remaining classes, ace the MCAT, you've got a great shot.

 

[gravitywave]

there's a difference between patient care experience and clinical volunteering, which is what you're referring to in terms of the most important EC.

yes, but you can make a case for regarding them as hour-for-hour equivalents in this situation. the reason most pre-meds get their experience as clinical volunteers is because the traditional medical career trajectory doesn't allow for them to get significant work experience in the field.

Honestly, patient care experience as a midlevel, while useful, isn't the same thing as patient care experience as a medical student, resident, or attending.

i absolutely agree with you, but please don't equivocate the typical pre-med volunteer experience with the work that allied health professionals do.

 

[LizzyM]

To me, the value of the experience that an applicant may have had as a mid-level is not the technical skill but the backbone, judgment and integrity that it takes to do the job well. We value those attributes in medical students and physicians and feel blessed to find them in applicants who have been tested in the field.

 

[drizzt3117]

yes, but you can make a case for regarding them as hour-for-hour equivalents in this situation. the reason most pre-meds get their experience as clinical volunteers is because the traditional medical career trajectory doesn't allow for them to get significant work experience in the field.



i absolutely agree with you, but please don't equivocate the typical pre-med volunteer experience with the work that allied health professionals do.

Well they're also getting paid for this work. I'm actually not a huge proponent of requiring "altruistic" type behavior for premeds, but some adcoms really like volunteer/community service work for this reason. I do think mid levels have a lot to offer in terms of patient care exp but in my experience they've had to unlearn things too!

 

[not2oldyet]

there's a difference between patient care experience and clinical volunteering, which is what you're referring to in terms of the most important EC.

Honestly, patient care experience as a midlevel, while useful, isn't the same thing as patient care experience as a medical student, resident, or attending.

So you are telling me that being responsible for the care and life of a GSW victim, or a patient ejected from a vehicle is the same as sitting in a doctor's office and observing the I&D of a boil? Being the person responsible for resuscitating a new born is the same as following a doctor into a room and gathering a patient history? Being the person actually gathering a history and knowing the course of care needed for a patient to survive is the same as watching it? I find that extremely hard to believe.
That being said, I do understand that it will not overcome weaknesses within an application but I do think there is a should be a difference in the types of experience a person has.

 

[drizzt3117]

So you are telling me that being responsible for the care and life of a GSW victim, or a patient ejected from a vehicle is the same as sitting in a doctor's office and observing the I&D of a boil? Being the person responsible for resuscitating a new born is the same as following a doctor into a room and gathering a patient history? Being the person actually gathering a history and knowing the course of care needed for a patient to survive is the same as watching it? I find that extremely hard to believe.
That being said, I do understand that it will not overcome weaknesses within an application but I do think there is a should be a difference in the types of experience a person has.

People have different experiences during volunteering. Some are run of the mill and others are extraordinary and adcoms are able to differentiate the difference. That said, the common denominator is that these activities were done without compensation. Clearly clinical experience is a good thing, but it doesn't make a mediocre candidate into a strong one.

 

[not2oldyet]

People have different experiences during volunteering. Some are run of the mill and others are extraordinary and adcoms are able to differentiate the difference. That said, the common denominator is that these activities were done without compensation. Clearly clinical experience is a good thing, but it doesn't make a mediocre candidate into a strong one.

So standing around and watching for free is equal or on par to getting compensated for being the person in charge? I would like to know of a volunteer experience where the volunteer was the one that HAD to make the choice on how to treat a patient. As a volunteer, you had to know and implement a treatment course? As a volunteer you had to control the environment and patients/ bystanders? As an extraordinary volunteer you had to make the decisions on who lived and who died? An extraordinary volunteer experience where that person was actually putting a tube in someone's chest? Or doing a cric? That's one HECK of a volunteer experience.

That being said, not to make myself out to be some super candidate, lets see, avg of 104 hrs/paycheck *26/yr*10 yrs = about 27,000 hrs, now lets say only 1/2 of that is true "pt contact" hrs. that's still 13,500 hrs. of having to think and act and be responsible and have good physical skills.
Now, how does that 40 hrs of shadowing most others have compare to that experience? My grades may not be the greatest and my MCAT may not look superb, but I have in the past, and will in the future put my patient care and patient care skills up against anyone, AKA ALCS competitions etc.

 

[McBatCommander]

OP is right. People shadowing and volunteering ain't got **** on him.

Good luck, man. I hope it all works out for you. You sound confident. I think you'd make a good doctor.

 

[LizzyM]

So standing around and watching for free is equal or on par to getting compensated for being the person in charge? I would like to know of a volunteer experience where the volunteer was the one that HAD to make the choice on how to treat a patient. As a volunteer, you had to know and implement a treatment course? As a volunteer you had to control the environment and patients/ bystanders? As an extraordinary volunteer you had to make the decisions on who lived and who died? An extraordinary volunteer experience where that person was actually putting a tube in someone's chest? Or doing a cric? That's one HECK of a volunteer experience.

That being said, not to make myself out to be some super candidate, lets see, avg of 104 hrs/paycheck *26/yr*10 yrs = about 27,000 hrs, now lets say only 1/2 of that is true "pt contact" hrs. that's still 13,500 hrs. of having to think and act and be responsible and have good physical skills.
Now, how does that 40 hrs of shadowing most others have compare to that experience? My grades may not be the greatest and my MCAT may not look superb, but I have in the past, and will in the future put my patient care and patient care skills up against anyone, AKA ALCS competitions etc.

The purpose of clinical exposure prior to making an application is to have an idea of the work, workload and work environment of physicians and to get an idea of whether one can at least tolerate being around the sick, injured and other patients. This can be acquired through shadowing (including the informal shadowing you may do if your parent is a physician), volunteer work and/or paid employment. There are diminishing returns with regard to what one gets out of time put into clinical exposure so that 27,000 hrs is not 10 times better than 2,700 hours when it comes to applying.

The purpose of volunteer service is to demonstrate altruism, willing service to the community, the time management skills to be able to do that in addition to other school activities. Someone who has to work due to economic hardship might be cut some slack but in general there is the expectation that a desire to be of service will motivate students to find the time, even if it is only a few hours per week or a chunk of time (a day of service) a few times per year. Hands on service to those in need is, IMO, stronger than raising money or engaging in runs, bikes, or similar activities for a cause.

Schools are in the business of teaching students how to perform procedures. The things we can't easily teach are what we are looking for in students: humility, integrity, discretion, common sense, stamina, responsibility, compassion. In so far that an applicant can demonstrate through examples from their life that they have developed those characteristics, the life experiences will be considered as outstanding preparation for medicine.

 

[drizzt3117]

great, sounds like you'd make a superb midlevel, congratulations.

So standing around and watching for free is equal or on par to getting compensated for being the person in charge? I would like to know of a volunteer experience where the volunteer was the one that HAD to make the choice on how to treat a patient. As a volunteer, you had to know and implement a treatment course? As a volunteer you had to control the environment and patients/ bystanders? As an extraordinary volunteer you had to make the decisions on who lived and who died? An extraordinary volunteer experience where that person was actually putting a tube in someone's chest? Or doing a cric? That's one HECK of a volunteer experience.

That being said, not to make myself out to be some super candidate, lets see, avg of 104 hrs/paycheck *26/yr*10 yrs = about 27,000 hrs, now lets say only 1/2 of that is true "pt contact" hrs. that's still 13,500 hrs. of having to think and act and be responsible and have good physical skills.
Now, how does that 40 hrs of shadowing most others have compare to that experience? My grades may not be the greatest and my MCAT may not look superb, but I have in the past, and will in the future put my patient care and patient care skills up against anyone, AKA ALCS competitions etc.