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Not for dedicated step 1; plenty of people do though. Somebody turned the entire 2013 FA into an anki deck.
How Much Does Your Pre-Med School REALLY Matter?
- Thread starter Cardiothoracic
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Not for dedicated step 1; plenty of people do though. Somebody turned the entire 2013 FA into an anki deck.
I'm a current Hopkins student and although I don't have the stats for UCLA, the Hopkins stats for US allopathic accepted student from JHU last year were: 3.64 cGPA/3.60 sGPA/31.9 MCAT for first time applicant -> acceptee and 3.59 cGPA/3.53 sGPA/31.0 MCAT for all JHU acceptees. Personally, I would think it's easier to obtain these numbers over the 3.8+/32+ I would probably need to have at my state school to get into med school.
Source: http://web.jhu.edu/prepro/health/Applicants/applicants.html "Applicant Kickoff November 2012 Powerpoint"
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I went to a state university in the Southeast. Not one known for their academics, or football prowess. We won parties instead. Somehow I managed to get into those better programs you mentioned too. Just chose not to matriculate there. I think my anecdotes are for a variety of reasons going to be more compelling than yours. Of course its not a plenary perspective, but I think anecdote is all that we have here.
There's no need to be defensive.
I didn't offer any anecdotes. I was just pointing out that the observed matriculation results from one school can not be the basis for making broad claims about how adcom members treat school prestige.
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And I'm asking you for either anecdote or data. You haven't put any up, only to say my experience isn't the be all end all, which of course it isn't. I'm not exactly sure what it is you are saying except that I personally don't get to dictate the answer to this question. I'm certainly not defensive, just trying to figure out what it is you're trying to argue, since I know that's your thing.
I wasn't arguing. Just made a comment.
A previous poster linked to a powerpoint from OSU adcom members that answered the ugrad prestige question and I took that as a definitive answer from the admissions committee's perspective.
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In this thread, there have been two quotes from putative adcom members who regularly write on SDN. There have also been some weak studies that support how GPA is altered for different schools.
Just to add another anecdote, which you have asked for...
I don't know what school you go to but I've definitely seen a ridiculous amount of inbreeding at top schools: both during my interviews when I would speak with the students and the numerous amounts of panels with medical students that I have watched.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most top schools have a large, if not majority, representation of top undergraduate students.
What does this mean, how do we account for it, blah blah blah,??????
Well that's kinda the point of the thread, but let's not be so naïve and state that it doesn't happen.
Well that solves it huh. A few people are biased. Isn't that the case for any topic anywhere in the country? You could also say that someone came on here that's been on selection committees for years and never heard anyone bring up that someone has an edge because of their school. It's about like fighting over Samsung or Apple. There probably aren't many studies because very few would admit to it but there are certainly people that have bias against "top" schools as well because they came from some small town in the middle of nowhere and worked with a couple Ivy students and were turned off by them. Some people won't buy a VW, Nissan, or a Chrysler or whatever...A couple people with bias shouldn't drive the narrative. The large majority of people I've known that have influence on acceptance say that outside of going to the same school as your interviewer or advocate, your school won't matter at all. The reason being is that there may be 15 people on a committee but 14 of them won't even see your file if your 1 advocate doesn't push on your behalf. Therefore, even if a few of the 14 have bias, one person can kill your app and their data on your interview and scores will have way more influence in the meeting because only one or two people in the meeting even know who you are.
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Most top schools are full of top undergraduate students. Being a top undergraduate student has nothing to do with where you went to school. Yes, Harvard is full of smart kids. And some of those very smart kids will matriculate into medical schools. That will happen because they are smart and made a good GPA and MCAT score and did all the banal things that premeds have to do. They will not get in because they went to Harvard. I've been on admissions committee. No one is impressed by someone coming from what USN&WR thinks is a "best" undergraduate program. Adcomms are impressed by outstanding individual students. Why do you think so many med students wander back into the pre-allo forum and always (almost) tell people to go where it is cheapest? Because the institution just doesn't make enough difference to justify a bunch of other negatives.
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Good points. At the end, these conversations are futile. We truly are trying to make arbitrary distinctions, which may or may not have an influence in the lives of most of us.
I really wish someone would start a thread trying to cateogorize schools by more important factors:
1. Best place for specific research
clinical
bench
neuroscience
engineering
2. Best place for teacher to student ratio
3. Best place to live for
married students
single students who want to party
single students who want to be secluded
4. Best place that has a combination of criteria
small yet close ties to medical schools and research
big yet small class sizes
etc.
I think this would be more helpful for HS students trying to decide where they want to go, rather than creating completely ignorant and arbitrary "rankings" of the "best" school and how it will help you get into HMS, JHU and of course Hopkins.. lol
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I couldn't agree more with all that. Those things could all make a tangible difference in your life as an UG, which matters for something. Being the "best" program to get you into JH or HMS won't do that. It also won't work for its stated goal.
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These are good points and show your perspective. But, I have talked to adcoms and they have told me it does make a difference.
I think it's great that we have had different experiences and can both comment on them. At the end of the day, we don't disagree: hard work, good grades, and everything else is way more important! Especially the financial aspect.
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agree
Yes. Go to 5:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3MCfrgcQlc
When the adcom members were asked about whether ugrad prestige mattered:
8%-Very Important
70%-one factor among many considered
22%-Doesn't Matter MCAT/GPA more important
This is from the entire OSU med admission committee. If anything, ugrad prestige should matter less at a school like OSU than at the top schools.
This isn't my "bias", this is what they clearly stated, and is in agreement with what LizzyM has stated as well.
At this point, I realize that people will just argue whatever makes them feel better, so this conversation is pointless.
The main difference being that he's in med school and you aren't. My school published that of our ~60 in our entering class we have (off the top of my head) ~38 different majors and ~30 different UG institutions. The number of UG institutions surprised me because it is a state school with a somewhat high in-state acceptance rate and I would've figured that they took a lot from two large UG state schools here but they must not, at least not anymore than 20 or so from those two schools. I think it shows that they have very little or no bias when it comes to the school the person went to because we seem to be spread pretty well which is more of what I think they go for. Kids with ties to the state but a diverse background and possibly from schools all over the country so to be honest, if you are from Boston and my school already accepted a kid with local ties but went to UG in Boston, you may be at a disadvantage because they may not want another Boston-area undergrad.
Thanks for the repost. And you kind of just proved my point. I didn't watch the video but 8% means nothing. 8% of the country has irrational bias on many things so who cares (cars, electronics, etc.). Nothing is 0/100%. The 70% also means nothing because based on the options, saying the opposite would mean that the school doesn't matter at all which obviously isn't true. The context of a question matters because they could be answering that the bottom end matters (community colleges, foreign schools, etc.) but everything else doesn't which could then be interpreted as the top schools mattering because both would fill in the same bubble. Just like being pro-life doesn't mean pro-abortion or you enjoy killing babies. Multiple choice answers to a imprecise question produces very suspect data.
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The point is, to 78% of adcoms, it matters to some degree. A lot of people say it doesn't matter, but it does. But take solace in the face that for most people it is "one factor among many".
What exactly are you arguing though?
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I see where you're coming from and I agree that yeah, most people would probably draw some distinction between Princeton and, say, Flaming Rainbow University (which doesn't actually exist anymore, but I believe is the best name for a school ever). But it seems to me sort of hard to learn much from that survey without a full ranking of the various factors. For all I know ugrad prestige sits on the list of importance right between "boxers or briefs" and "on which side does the applicant part their hair". All that said, I think we're probably arguing the same thing. Does it matter? In absolute terms, yes. Is the effect measurable or worth taking into account? Hard to say, but probably not much.
I thought I was pretty clear and the person above me states it decently as well but I'll re-state it. That bubble could be filled if you are saying that a true 4 year school is looked at better than community college-heavy schooling. Someone could then take that answer and say that it means that top 10's are better than 11 thru 200 even though that wasn't the intention when the person answered the question. The point is that the question and the associated answers give bogus data. The question would have to be more specific, i.e. "Would you give preference to a student from a top 10 school with other things equal?" That data could be more reliable but then again, many people would argue that there is no such thing as "all other things equal" because the interview is the ultimate decider in that case and there are no such thing as equal interviews. Getting past a screening process is just the start. Not to mention, different adcoms might have differing opinions about what the top 10 schools are.
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This is a good point. Many things matter for our applications but we can hardly be expected to spend our time trying to dissect every little bit. I think it is sufficient to say that it could matter, but wouldn't hold anyone back so just do what you do and move on.
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In 2012:
U Georgia, Texas A&M, U Illinois, MSU, U Arizona, LSU, U Minnesota, PSU, U Indiana, U Miami (OH), U Kansas, U Mizzu, ASU, UCF, USF, FSU, and U Maryland were all average state schools that were in the top 50 for schools w/ the highest number of applicants to US allopathic med schools.
Together they had nearly 5,000 of their undergrads to apply to med school that year.
Now, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that some of these applicants had really good stats and ECs (lets say well above average). I'm also gonna make this wild assumption that many of these applicants also applied to some top 10 schools with the hopes of attending one.
Who wants to guess how many of these 5,000 applicants (incl. the ones with great stats) ended up at places like Stanford, UChicago, and Yale?
HYPSM had ~1,100 applicants apply to med school in 2012. Do you really think that every single one of those applicants had amazing stats and ECs? Sure, the caliber of student is higher at these places and overall their application stats are much higher on average. But, at the same time, a large portion of those 1,100 had GPA/MCAT combos that were just average or even lower. Not everyone at Princeton or MIT gets above a 3.7. Trust me, quite a few of them interviewed at my school with GPAs under 3.6.
Take Stanford's class of 2017 for example:
More than 67% of their class is from HYPSM plus Duke/Columbia.
(7 schools out of hundreds of great universities in the US)
Wanna know where the other ~33% is from?
Mostly places like Johns Hopkins, WashU, Emory, UPenn, Cornell, and Berkeley.
The select few (less than 5%) that came from low ranking state schools mostly either had A) near perfect stats, B) PhDs with great research experience, or C) Amazing ECs
So yeah, school reputation and pedigree matter to some schools a little more than what type of underwear you're wearing.
If you're happy going to any med school and aren't really that interested in things like academics/research/policy, then school name doesn't really matter that much. But, if you're shooting for top schools, it helps a lot more than most people like to admit (n=1 stories aside).
U Georgia, Texas A&M, U Illinois, MSU, U Arizona, LSU, U Minnesota, PSU, U Indiana, U Miami (OH), U Kansas, U Mizzu, ASU, UCF, USF, FSU, and U Maryland were all average state schools that were in the top 50 for schools w/ the highest number of applicants to US allopathic med schools.
Together they had nearly 5,000 of their undergrads to apply to med school that year.
Now, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that some of these applicants had really good stats and ECs (lets say well above average). I'm also gonna make this wild assumption that many of these applicants also applied to some top 10 schools with the hopes of attending one.
Who wants to guess how many of these 5,000 applicants (incl. the ones with great stats) ended up at places like Stanford, UChicago, and Yale?
HYPSM had ~1,100 applicants apply to med school in 2012. Do you really think that every single one of those applicants had amazing stats and ECs? Sure, the caliber of student is higher at these places and overall their application stats are much higher on average. But, at the same time, a large portion of those 1,100 had GPA/MCAT combos that were just average or even lower. Not everyone at Princeton or MIT gets above a 3.7. Trust me, quite a few of them interviewed at my school with GPAs under 3.6.
Take Stanford's class of 2017 for example:
More than 67% of their class is from HYPSM plus Duke/Columbia.
(7 schools out of hundreds of great universities in the US)
Wanna know where the other ~33% is from?
Mostly places like Johns Hopkins, WashU, Emory, UPenn, Cornell, and Berkeley.
The select few (less than 5%) that came from low ranking state schools mostly either had A) near perfect stats, B) PhDs with great research experience, or C) Amazing ECs
So yeah, school reputation and pedigree matter to some schools a little more than what type of underwear you're wearing.
If you're happy going to any med school and aren't really that interested in things like academics/research/policy, then school name doesn't really matter that much. But, if you're shooting for top schools, it helps a lot more than most people like to admit (n=1 stories aside).
While I would like to believe that prestige matters, I have to say that comparing the sheer number of applicants from different schools is not the best way to evaluate this.
The average MCAT score of premeds that apply to med school from the likes of HYPMS (etc) is typically 33 or 34. These are for the average joes at these schools.
The average MCAT scores for premeds applying from the stats schools you mentioned are often below 30.
So if you take 50,000 kids with an average MCAT score of a 27 and compare their results to 1,500 kids with an average of 33, then you are going to see large differences regardless of whether prestige matters.
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That's true, but the point is that among those 5,000 there are still hundreds w/ competitive stats and ECs. If approx. 10% of regular applicants get a 33+ (exactly the 90th percentile) that comes out to roughly 500 applicants (or 5,000 w/ a 33+ for 50,000 applicants). At the same time, If the average MCAT is 33 for HYPSM, then 50% will have less than a 33, which means only about 550 students are applying from those schools each year with competitive stats.
In the end, with only those state schools included, you get roughly the same number of applicants with great stats as HYPSM: about 500 with 33/3.7 and above.
And that's not even including the other 50,000 applicants from other state schools. (realistically, there are prob 10x as many people from state schools applying with a 33+ than those from HYPSM)
In spite of this, Hundreds of HYPSM grads fill top med schools every year, often making up well over 50% of the class (out of those 500 applying w/ great stats). At the same time, you'll only find 1 or 2 from state schools in the same classes (out of those 5,000 applying w/ great stats).
Anyway you slice it, the numbers are clearly biased unless you assume that most applicants from state schools don't like applying to top med schools or they all have inferior ECs.
