How much extra would you pay for an MD?

[Santorum Surge]

OP is clearly using "Santorum" in this sense.
"DEFINITION: SANTORUM
Pronunciation: san-TOR-um
1. The frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the by-product of anal sex.
2. Former Senator Rick Santorum"

OP's name is Santorum Surge, get it now? Yeah... it's gross... but that's the point.

That's disgusting. My name is a reference to Rick Santorum surging in the polls. Unfortunately, he recently pulled out, so the Santorum surge is over. I'm hoping in four years he'll be up for it again.

More importantly, I got an email from KCUMB today. They are giving me a $25,000/yr legacy scholarship. That puts it at ($19,000 * 4 = $76,000) total for KCUMB and $161,000 for USCarolina. This is a an $85,000 difference + plus interest ... I'm still leaning toward MD for the sake of specializing, but what do you guys think? I would like to know by the 15th, just to get this out of the way before dead week and finals.

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[Bacchus]

You're foolish to skip out on KCUMB unless you can squeeze blood from a stone and get the allopathic school to contribute more money to your financial aid. Here's a KCUMB match list from 2010 with ACGME neurology, orthopedic surgery, anesthesia, diagnostic radiology, etc. http://www.kcumb.edu/academics/PDF/2010MatchSpecialtyStateCitySite.pdf

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

Santorum surge is over.

Thank God!

What an awful way to die. :'(

 

[Santorum Surge]

You're foolish to skip out on KCUMB unless you can squeeze blood from a stone and get the allopathic school to contribute more money to your financial aid. Here's a KCUMB match list from 2010 with ACGME neurology, orthopedic surgery, anesthesia, diagnostic radiology, etc. http://www.kcumb.edu/academics/PDF/2010MatchSpecialtyStateCitySite.pdf

I counted ~150 in FM/IM/peds/obgyn. Can't remember how big a typical class is, but that's a lot in primary care (and there's nothing wrong with that - I myself am interested in primary care right now). But if I'm considering specializing, isn't MD still better? I am really impressed with KCUMB's list, I have to admit... quite a few got into general surgery and anesthesiology. Niice.

 

[Santorum Surge]

Bump ... Any more advice??

 

[sliceofbread136]

I would go MD, just because I'm a prestige *****

Make yourself a detailed pros and cons list and see which one you prefer in the end. There are very valid reasons to go either way on this, and the only who can give a good answer is you.

 

[Santorum Surge]

I would go MD, just because I'm a prestige *****

Make yourself a detailed pros and cons list and see which one you prefer in the end. There are very valid reasons to go either way on this, and the only who can give a good answer is you.

That's what I'm thinking too... I mean, I've seen the DO stigma firsthand. The DO surgeon didn't give two *hits about it but still. I just don't want to introduce myself and say, "Yes, but I got accepted into an MD school and just chose not to attend."

 

[sliceofbread136]

That's what I'm thinking too... I mean, I've seen the DO stigma firsthand. The DO surgeon didn't give two *hits about it but still. I just don't want to introduce myself and say, "Yes, but I got accepted into an MD school and just chose not to attend."

Well is this worth 85,000 to you?

This is the stuff YOU need to think about. There are going to be DO buffs in this thread who will call you stupid for wanting to pay more, and there will MD guys who will pressure you the other way. But in the end, I don't think it'll affect your decision much. In reality, you've probably already subconsciously made your choice. Flip a coin to make the decision, and go with the option you find yourself wishing the coin tells you to do (it wont be as simple as that, what I mean is do some personal soul searching, this is a big decision)

Edit: In before MD vs DO war! Run while you still can OP!

 

[deleted103644]

You're foolish to skip out on KCUMB unless you can squeeze blood from a stone and get the allopathic school to contribute more money to your financial aid. Here's a KCUMB match list from 2010 with ACGME neurology, orthopedic surgery, anesthesia, diagnostic radiology, etc. http://www.kcumb.edu/academics/PDF/2010MatchSpecialtyStateCitySite.pdf

You're kidding right? There were a couple of decent matches in anesthesia (but I don't know how strong those programs actually are), but only one ACGME ortho match (and it was military), and no good radiology or neurology matches.

There's no comparison, you should go for an MD.

Has anyone ever studied the effects of MD vs DO on compensation? By primary care vs specialty alone I'd expect the former to have the edge, but I'd imagine there's an aspect of job choice as well.

People who graduate from a DO program and do well in an ACGME residency will undoubtedly do as well as their MD peers, but they are the exception, not the rule.

 

[TriagePreMed]

That's disgusting. My name is a reference to Rick Santorum surging in the polls. Unfortunately, he recently pulled out, so the Santorum surge is over. I'm hoping in four years he'll be up for it again.

More importantly, I got an email from KCUMB today. They are giving me a $25,000/yr legacy scholarship. That puts it at ($19,000 * 4 = $76,000) total for KCUMB and $161,000 for USCarolina. This is a an $85,000 difference + plus interest ... I'm still leaning toward MD for the sake of specializing, but what do you guys think? I would like to know by the 15th, just to get this out of the way before dead week and finals.

A lot of people here act like 100k is free money. You could buy like 5-10 cars with that on the spot. Is it really worth that to you? Specializing won't be a problem for you if you're willing to go through the AOA match for more competitive fields. Personally, I'd go to KCUMB, but maybe I say that because I know what it's like to be without money.

 

[TriagePreMed]

You're kidding right? There were a couple of decent matches in anesthesia (but I don't know how strong those programs actually are), but only one ACGME ortho match (and it was military), and no good radiology or neurology matches.

There's no comparison, you should go for an MD.

Has anyone ever studied the effects of MD vs DO on compensation? By primary care vs specialty alone I'd expect the former to have the edge, but I'd imagine there's an aspect of job choice as well.

People who graduate from a DO program and do well in an ACGME residency will undoubtedly do as well as their MD peers, but they are the exception, not the rule.

Job compensation discrimination would automatically become a lawsuit. There is no difference at all in what you'll make. People here also fail to see that DO exploded only about 15-20 years ago. By the time our generation is out practicing, it's estimated that 1 in 4 students will be Osteopathic, and not only that, the Caribbean MD door will have closed. More DO acceptance will be inevitable.

 

[deleted103644]

Job compensation discrimination would automatically become a lawsuit. There is no difference at all in what you'll make. People here also fail to see that DO exploded only about 15-20 years ago. By the time our generation is out practicing, it's estimated that 1 in 4 students will be Osteopathic, and not only that, the Caribbean MD door will have closed. More DO acceptance will be inevitable.

Why would that be cause for a lawsuit? Many practices would pay more for a star candidate from a top residency program than someone from the middle of the pack at a mediocre program. If DO students are more likely to populate the less well respected residency programs, even without a direct bias against DO graduates they might still be less desirable and therefore less well-compensated.

Even if a job outright paid MDs more than DOs, I don't know what grounds you would have for a lawsuit. It's not discrimination (no one is born with a DO and it's not a disability or a religion), and an employer would be within its rights to say that an MD applicant would be more valuable for their purposes (whether you agree or not). Hell, an employer could pay DOs more than MDs instead if they wanted (but let's agree the former is more plausible).

Who cares about DO acceptance? Ditch the OMM, convert the decent programs to MD programs like they did in CA and be done with it.

 

[Bacchus]

I wish I could turn a blind eye to an extra 80-some thousand dollars. Give me a break.

 

[Megatron2016]

DO's get paid the same MD's get paid. Why would you pay 60,000 dollars more for the same thing?

I think it's related to your tolerance for risk. You can do most of the same things coming out of each degree, but with the MD you generally have a slight leg up. Since this is a career we're talking about, why not give yourself the best odds possible to do what you want?

Now if you're confident that you'll excel in DO school, going to DO school should work out fine and you'll come out financially ahead.

 

[giantswing]

I was in the same boat: got accepted to a DO school about 60k (instate) and an MD school 80k (out of state). I want to go into a competitive specialty, so that influenced my decision a lot, as did the fact that my family and my husbands family were actually much closer to the out of state school and very far away from the instate.
Everyone I talked to said go MD, it will keep more doors open for you. Period.
On top of this I got a scholarship after coming off the MD school's wait list while I would not have gotten anything had I gone DO.
Take in extenuating factors (specialty, location) but all else being equal everyone I know said go MD, because of the way that residencies are shaping up.

 

[Megatron2016]

a friend of mine made this site. http://www.studentloancalculator.me/#

It's easy to play around with various loan amounts and see what your repayments and interest will look like. It'll help you get a good idea about what an extra $80k in debt can mean for your cash flow for the 10-20 years after medical school (of course there are options like IBR to limit the monthly payments, but that's a whole other discussion).

 

[Bacchus]

I was in the same boat: got accepted to a DO school about 60k (instate) and an MD school 80k (out of state). I want to go into a competitive specialty, so that influenced my decision a lot, as did the fact that my family and my husbands family were actually much closer to the out of state school and very far away from the instate.
Everyone I talked to said go MD, it will keep more doors open for you. Period.
On top of this I got a scholarship after coming off the MD school's wait list while I would not have gotten anything had I gone DO.
Take in extenuating factors (specialty, location) but all else being equal everyone I know said go MD, because of the way that residencies are shaping up.

No you weren't. You were in a dingy next to the Titanic of this thread. 20k =/= 85k. $166 extra per month over 20 years vs. $705 over the same time. $241 vs. $1026 if you narrow it to 10 years.

 

[Santorum Surge]

No you weren't. You were in a dingy next to the Titanic of this thread. 20k =/= 85k. $166 extra per month over 20 years vs. $705 over the same time. $241 vs. $1026 if you narrow it to 10 years.

I'm still pondering this decision... but in the meantime, it's dinghy. Thanks for all the advice so far.

 

[GimpGenius]

There are two ways to think about this. The first one is financially: that is, which school is the least expensive in the long term? If you're leaning toward Primary Care, KCUMB isn't a bad school, and with the scholarship, you're saving a considerable amount in interest over the life of your loans. There's also the "big fish in a small pond" idea, where you may be more likely to impress the right people at KCUMB relative to USC.

On the other hand, if you're all right with rural/underserved PC, you could go to USC, be closer to your family, and have your debt forgiven through any number of programs out there.

Since none of us have been through both programs, any advice on "quality" should be taken with a grain of salt. Same thing with comparisons based on match lists.

Where are you going to be happiest? There are plenty of ways to pay for med school, so I wouldn't let money force your hand. If you fit better at KCUMB, go forth and kick butt on a scholarship. If you like USC better, go forth and kick butt there. Either way, you've set yourself up to do well. Good luck!

 

[searun]

[I made another account to protect my privacy.]

I'm in a pickle right now. I am a KS resident and was not accepted at my only state school. I have been accepted at both the University of South Carolina, as an OOS student, and also to KCUMB. Great news, right? Maybe not. Here are my choices:

U. of South Carolina: allopathic, $60,500 per year (tuition and fees)

KCUMB: osteopathic (well-known as far as DO schools are concerned), $44,000 per year

Cost of living will be comparable. That ~$15,000 difference works out to $60,000 over four years, and to God knows what after interest. My question for SDN is this: Is the MD degree worth an extra $60,000 or more?

P.S. I told my interviewers I want to go into primary care, and that's what my PS was about. And, honestly, I am interested in IM or OB/GYN. But gastroenterology also really interests me, as does EM. So it's not necessarily a "If you're going into primary care, go with the cheapest school" kind of deal. Thanks.

How is that Santorum surge working??

 

[deleted103644]

How is that Santorum surge working??

I'm unclear, did the OP really not mean his name to be a reference to Dan Savage's definition of Santorum?

Nothing worse than a Santorum surge right when you're pulling out...

 

[notbobtrustme]

Go for the MD.

Forget primary care, it will be dead within 20 years for MD/DO. The midlevel encroachment will absolutely destroy that market.

With specialization, you can easily make up the loan differential in 12 months.

 

[tantacles]

I'm unclear, did the OP really not mean his name to be a reference to Dan Savage's definition of Santorum?

Nothing worse than a Santorum surge right when you're pulling out...

Yeah, and odors trigger memory better than any other stimulus.

 

[Santorum Surge]

I'm unclear, did the OP really not mean his name to be a reference to Dan Savage's definition of Santorum?

Nothing worse than a Santorum surge right when you're pulling out...

Who is Dan Savage?

My name is a reference to the true patriot Rick Santorum, who recently was surging (in the polls). He was in an enviable spot - right behind Mitt Romney while surging and preparing for another surge. At the same time he had two guys behind him (Newt and Ron) who were each working on their own surges. Unfortunately Rick had to pull out before he could surge again, so now Mitt is all by himself. And it seems like Newt and Ron are too old and won't be able to surge after all.

 

[Whatyousay]

Who is Dan Savage?

My name is a reference to the true patriot Rick Santorum, who recently was surging (in the polls). He was in an enviable spot - right behind Mitt Romney while surging and preparing for another surge. At the same time he had two guys behind him (Newt and Ron) who were each working on their own surges. Unfortunately Rick had to pull out before he could surge again, so now Mitt is all by himself. And it seems like Newt and Ron are too old and won't be able to surge after all.

 

[deleted103644]

Who is Dan Savage?

My name is a reference to the true patriot Rick Santorum, who recently was surging (in the polls). He was in an enviable spot - right behind Mitt Romney while surging and preparing for another surge. At the same time he had two guys behind him (Newt and Ron) who were each working on their own surges. Unfortunately Rick had to pull out before he could surge again, so now Mitt is all by himself. And it seems like Newt and Ron are too old and won't be able to surge after all.

Haha, a daisy chain of Republican nominees... And I think my question has been answered.

 

[willen101383]

Again, dont go DO...what are you thinking.

It feels really good to do the same work, have the same hardships, and yet not match as well as your MD counterparts when you have the exact same training.

Vomit.

And all you prestige ****** need to grow the fuck up and accomplish some shit so you dont get all butthurt over some trivial crap like what someone else thinks of you.

 

[Santorum Surge]

Again, dont go DO...what are you thinking.

It feels really good to do the same work, have the same hardships, and yet not match as well as your MD counterparts when you have the exact same training.

Vomit.

And all you prestige ****** need to grow the fuck up and accomplish some shit so you dont get all butthurt over some trivial crap like what someone else thinks of you.

IDK, I'm leaning toward KCUMB right now. That's a lot of money ... I mean, won't most of us end up in primary care anyway? Numbers-wise? If I'm a pediatrician at $130k a year, being an extra $200k in debt will be pretty rough

 

[willen101383]

IDK, I'm leaning toward KCUMB right now. That's a lot of money ... I mean, won't most of us end up in primary care anyway? Numbers-wise? If I'm a pediatrician at $130k a year, being an extra $200k in debt will be pretty rough

Yeah true. But as people have said, and will say again, you probably wont leave med school being the type of doctor you wanted to be at the start.

Either way, dont do stuff for prestige or a more recognizable title. Its *****ic unless you have such poor self esteem that not having an MD will put you on some ledge somewhere. Do it for financial or matching reasons.

 

[deleted103644]

IDK, I'm leaning toward KCUMB right now. That's a lot of money ... I mean, won't most of us end up in primary care anyway? Numbers-wise? If I'm a pediatrician at $130k a year, being an extra $200k in debt will be pretty rough

You can always get loan forgiveness for working in primary care in an undeserved region. If you have the option, you really shouldn't go for a DO unless you believe in OMM (barf).

 

[deleted398564]

.

 

[willen101383]

You can always get loan forgiveness for working in primary care in an undeserved region. If you have the option, you really shouldn't go for a DO unless you believe in OMM (barf).

God maybe if the AOA cooled their jets and pared back OMM to the genuinely useful EMPLOYABLE techniques that everyday non OMM guru docs could use...people would actually respect it. I cant even remember crap I was forced to learn early this year....let alone 5 years down the pike when I finish residency. There is some good stuff buried in there, but its buried under 8 feet of garbage nobody wants to sort through.

 

[rexxx]

But where do we draw the line? What if you were getting a DO at full scholarship vs. an MD at $60k a year? At what tuition + COL difference, if any, would one go DO over MD?

Honestly, I would probably STILL choose the MD, even if the DO were at full scholarship and I came out with a huge amount of debt with the MD. I feel that debt can be repaid eventually and in the end the MD would still open more doors.

 

[Bacchus]

Still saying KCUMB. You can go into the osteopathic match. If you're going to want a competitive specialty you'd apply to one via the osteopathic match. If you don't get a competitive DO residency as a DO, you're not going to get it as an MD in the ACGME match. Everyone thinks they are on top, but medical school proves them wrong soon enough.

 

[madsheep]

GREAT point that I should have mentioned in my original post. Columbia, SC has a superior climate. Kansas City has snowy winters, though? Lol. Not sure about safety of the different campuses - maybe someone can chime in.

This shows you what you don't know about your own home town, I have lived in Kansas City my entire life and have never heard of KCUMB.

Any way yeah, our weather stinks, but if your from Kansas you already know that, also Kansas City has some serious violence/crime issues that aren't being handled very well.

 

[Brachyury]

I'll post this again: KCUMB clerkships are preceptor heavy; this is not a good thing. Go to USC not because of the MD degree, but because you will do your rotations at an academic medical center

 

[Santorum Surge]

This shows you what you don't know about your own home town, I have lived in Kansas City my entire life and have never heard of KCUMB.

Any way yeah, our weather stinks, but if your from Kansas you already know that, also Kansas City has some serious violence/crime issues that aren't being handled very well.

I was born and raised in Kansas...and have been going to college in Kansas for several years now...I'm familiar with the weather. I was trying to list the one (debatable, if you don't like snow) advantage KC has as a city has over Columbia.

Anyway I'll sleep on it, thanks.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Again, dont go DO...what are you thinking.

It feels really good to do the same work, have the same hardships, and yet not match as well as your MD counterparts when you have the exact same training.

Vomit.

And all you prestige ****** need to grow the fuck up and accomplish some shit so you dont get all butthurt over some trivial crap like what someone else thinks of you.

You are always so sensitive... it really makes you appear insecure... not trying to hate or start a fight just sharing my observation.

 

[WDeagle]

I'll post this again: KCUMB clerkships are preceptor heavy; this is not a good thing. Go to USC not because of the MD degree, but because you will do your rotations at an academic medical center

This is false. I never once had a preceptor based rotation until the end of 4th year and thats because I wanted to do a rotation where I wouldn't have to compete with residents for cases. I agree that preceptor based rotations are not a good thing if thats all you get.

 

[Bacchus]

This is false. I never once had a preceptor based rotation until the end of 4th year and thats because I wanted to do a rotation where I wouldn't have to compete with residents for cases. I agree that preceptor based rotations are not a good thing if thats all you get.

I have to agree. I'm not a KCUMB student but I rotated with several using Philadelphia as their clinical campus. I was on medicine with several of the KCUMB kids and the service is run in the traditional sense. It may not be at the biggest hospital, but there are residents.

 

[0919mmk]

Who is Dan Savage?

My name is a reference to the true patriot Rick Santorum, who recently was surging (in the polls). He was in an enviable spot - right behind Mitt Romney while surging and preparing for another surge. At the same time he had two guys behind him (Newt and Ron) who were each working on their own surges. Unfortunately Rick had to pull out before he could surge again, so now Mitt is all by himself. And it seems like Newt and Ron are too old and won't be able to surge after all.

Best. Post. Ever.

 

[Brachyury]

This is false. I never once had a preceptor based rotation until the end of 4th year and thats because I wanted to do a rotation where I wouldn't have to compete with residents for cases. I agree that preceptor based rotations are not a good thing if thats all you get.

Previous threads on or involving KCUMB suggest otherwise

 

[rad0nc]

If you take one look at the match list posted for KCUMB you will see that there really isn't any choice. $80,000 is a ton of money, but it is money well spent. You will really kick yourself on match day if you choose to go the DO route.

 

[GimpGenius]

If you take one look at the match list posted for KCUMB you will see that there really isn't any choice. $80,000 is a ton of money, but it is money well spent. You will really kick yourself on match day if you choose to go the DO route.

The only match list I saw was 2010's:

http://www.kcumb.edu/academics/PDF/2010MatchSpecialtyStateCitySite.pdf

South Carolina's is 2012:

http://www.med.sc.edu/Match_Results_2012.pdf

I don't think you can make a valid argument without comparing the 2012 to the 2012 (and if I missed the 2012 one for KCUMB, I'd appreciate the link). Personally, I think the match list comparison is anecdotal evidence--different classes are going to have different interests--but it's worth looking carefully at both if you're talking about 80 grand.

 

[Santorum Surge]

The only match list I saw was 2010's:

http://www.kcumb.edu/academics/PDF/2010MatchSpecialtyStateCitySite.pdf

South Carolina's is 2012:

http://www.med.sc.edu/Match_Results_2012.pdf

I don't think you can make a valid argument without comparing the 2012 to the 2012 (and if I missed the 2012 one for KCUMB, I'd appreciate the link). Personally, I think the match list comparison is anecdotal evidence--different classes are going to have different interests--but it's worth looking carefully at both if you're talking about 80 grand.

Honestly that's very similar to KCUMB's, but as you said, direct comparisons aren't all that useful. I'm liking the radiology, anesthesiology, ortho, and derm, though. As well as the Mayo IM. But the list I saw for KCUMB has plastics, GS, and some other nice placements The KCUMB class size is quite large, though, which can sort of skew the perception (i.e., you ignore all the FM/IM/ped/psych and focus on the few GS spots) and is itself a consideration (i.e., smaller class at USC means more interaction w/ faculty, a chance for better letters and connections, etc.). Anyway, as you can tell, I'm still sleeping on it.

 

[rad0nc]

Honestly that's very similar to KCUMB's, but as you said, direct comparisons aren't all that useful. I'm liking the radiology, anesthesiology, ortho, and derm, though. As well as the Mayo IM. But the list I saw for KCUMB has plastics, GS, and some other nice placements The KCUMB class size is quite large, though, which can sort of skew the perception (i.e., you ignore all the FM/IM/ped/psych and focus on the few GS spots) and is itself a consideration (i.e., smaller class at USC means more interaction w/ faculty, a chance for better letters and connections, etc.). Anyway, as you can tell, I'm still sleeping on it.

Those two match lists aren't even close. I'm not sure why it would matter to look at the exact same year. If anything, the match is more competitive each year, so KCUMB would have an edge with it's 2010 list compared to a 2012 list from another school. The USC list has matches in Ortho at Hopkins, ENT at Duke, Neurosurgery x 2, Med-Derm, etc. You won't see matches like that from KCUMB or any other osteopathic school for that matter.

 

[Brachyury]

Honestly that's very similar to KCUMB's, but as you said, direct comparisons aren't all that useful. I'm liking the radiology, anesthesiology, ortho, and derm, though. As well as the Mayo IM. But the list I saw for KCUMB has plastics, GS, and some other nice placements The KCUMB class size is quite large, though, which can sort of skew the perception (i.e., you ignore all the FM/IM/ped/psych and focus on the few GS spots) and is itself a consideration (i.e., smaller class at USC means more interaction w/ faculty, a chance for better letters and connections, etc.). Anyway, as you can tell, I'm still sleeping on it.

IM at Mayo is not as amazing as you probably think it is (once again, looking at match lists isn't always the most helpful thing)

 

[WDeagle]

Previous threads on or involving KCUMB suggest otherwise

Well I go there now and I suggest otherwise

 

[Brachyury]

Well I go there now and I suggest otherwise

I attend neither school, but just to clarify for the OP, could you describe how you rotations are structured. At my allopathic school, on my third year rotations, say in medicine or neurology, I am part of a team with other med students, residents, and attendings. I work with multiple attendigns and residents at a single hospital for one to two months at a time. My evaluations do not come from a single attending, rather they come from multiple people on the team.

 

[link2swim06]

Honestly that's very similar to KCUMB's, but as you said, direct comparisons aren't all that useful. I'm liking the radiology, anesthesiology, ortho, and derm, though. As well as the Mayo IM. But the list I saw for KCUMB has plastics, GS, and some other nice placements The KCUMB class size is quite large, though, which can sort of skew the perception (i.e., you ignore all the FM/IM/ped/psych and focus on the few GS spots) and is itself a consideration (i.e., smaller class at USC means more interaction w/ faculty, a chance for better letters and connections, etc.). Anyway, as you can tell, I'm still sleeping on it.

If you have any questions about USC feel free to PM me...I am finishing up M2 year there in a few weeks.