how much has obamacare cost america ?

[DermViser]

I wonder if the current state of affairs (although premature) would be any different if a Republican President and Congress had enacted a similar version of health reform. I kinda wish that were the case sometimes... The Dems definitely have their faults, but in my lifetime, I don't recall them ever participating in this level of obstruction with anything.

Bc the media doesn't report it and if it does, it's not labeled as "obstruction". Dems are just as sleazy and partisan.

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[deanthedream17]

Clearly you've never lived in poverty. It's hard to cut back when you already don't have essentials let alone nonessentials, aside from a prepaid phone for work related purposes.

This type of opinion from a future doc makes me a little sad.

Medicaid.

You're believing what the media wants you to believe. This country would have enough to take care of the poor if we weren't also taking care of the rest of the world's poor through illegal immigration.
I don't want this country to turn into the bankrupt country of Greece. Private charity provides great care as well. The govt does not. Look at VA hospital if you don't believe me.

 

[deanthedream17]

The WHO ranks US 37 of 191.
http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

Study in JAMA "The Anatomy of Health Care in the United States"
Taken from the abstract: "Despite the increases in resources devoted to health care, multiple health metrics, including life expectancy at birth and survival with many diseases, shows the United States trailing peer nations. The findings from this analysis contradict several common assumptions. "
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleID=1769890&utm_source=Silverchair Information Systems&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=MASTER:JAMALatestIssueTOCNotification11/12/2013
Some charts from the study
http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/chart-what-happened-to-us-life-expectancy/

The Commonwealth Fund "U.S Ranks Last Among Seven Countries on Health System Performance Based on Measures of Quality, Efficiency, Access, Equity, and Healthy Lives"
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub.../2010/jun/us-ranks-last-among-seven-countries

Institute of Medicine: "U.S. Health in International Perspective: Shorter lives, poorer health"
http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Report Files/2013/US-Health-International-Perspective/USHealth_Intl_PerspectiveRB.pdf

These studies do not show that their healthcare is better. They are about "Health system performance" which is a stretch to say the least that it has anything to do with who has the best healthcare. People all across the world COME HERE when they get sick because we have the best doctors and medicine.

 

[deanthedream17]

The WHO ranks US 37 of 191.
http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

Study in JAMA "The Anatomy of Health Care in the United States"
Taken from the abstract: "Despite the increases in resources devoted to health care, multiple health metrics, including life expectancy at birth and survival with many diseases, shows the United States trailing peer nations. The findings from this analysis contradict several common assumptions. "
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleID=1769890&utm_source=Silverchair Information Systems&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=MASTER:JAMALatestIssueTOCNotification11/12/2013
Some charts from the study
http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/chart-what-happened-to-us-life-expectancy/

The Commonwealth Fund "U.S Ranks Last Among Seven Countries on Health System Performance Based on Measures of Quality, Efficiency, Access, Equity, and Healthy Lives"
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub.../2010/jun/us-ranks-last-among-seven-countries

Institute of Medicine: "U.S. Health in International Perspective: Shorter lives, poorer health"
http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Report Files/2013/US-Health-International-Perspective/USHealth_Intl_PerspectiveRB.pdf

Please watch and learn:

 

[deanthedream17]

You serious? Do you poor people are financially literate and spend lavish amount of money on premium cables, eat out everyday and waste money? Jesus Christ. Have you ever eaten same vegetable soup for two weeks with untreated ear infection? And there is no cable TV to comfort your pain

Yes literally most of the welfare system abuses it and spends the money on luxuries instead of working and all getting paid more than working just further discouraging them to get a job where they can healthcare through it.

 

[deanthedream17]

I said six months, not weeks. And that was with insurance -- though for services that were not covered.

You say "The vast majority of people can find healthcare through a private insurance company" -- What about those who can't? At any price? Due to pre-existing conditions, my family has been there, which forced us to stick with an over-priced, under-insuring policy that was arguably worse than nothing. (If we had nothing, we could have qualified for our state's high-risk pool, but I wasn't willing to go uninsured for the 90 days that would have been required.)

Now, thanks to the ACA, we have a platinum-level policy (yes, one step over gold ) that covers almost everything to some degree, has a lower annual maximum out of pocket, and costs us $250/month less than we were paying before.

For the self-employed, the ACA has been a godsend. Truly.

 

[EyesOfTheWorld]

You're also believing what certain sects of the media want you to believe. (Or, at least, that is what I would say if I were rude enough to presume you don't form your own opinions.)

With the number of uninsured Americans, medicaid wasn't a fix like you're suggesting. Illegal immigration is not the cause for our country's financial problems. If anything, the massive spending on the military in a time without war, which even many in the military admit is excessive, is a larger component of why we cannot care for our poor.

The inefficiency of some VA hospitals does not mean the government cannot provide great care. It might mean it isn't currently doing so, which is why I would suggest we make the government more efficient rather than hoping that someone else will care for our poor and disabled.

Yes literally most of the welfare system abuses it and spends the money on luxuries instead of working and all getting paid more than working just further discouraging them to get a job where they can healthcare through it.

If you're going to make such a statement, you should back it up. No one I have ever known on welfare has abused it and spent money on luxuries (anecdotal, I know, but still) and most people on welfare do actually work but make very little since the minimum wage is unlivable in many parts of the US.

 

[deanthedream17]

You're also believing what certain sects of the media want you to believe. (Or, at least, that is what I would say if I were rude enough to presume you don't form your own opinions.)

With the number of uninsured Americans, medicaid wasn't a fix like you're suggesting. Illegal immigration is not the cause for our country's financial problems. If anything, the massive spending on the military in a time without war, which even many in the military admit is excessive, is a larger component of why we cannot care for our poor.

The inefficiency of some VA hospitals does not mean the government cannot provide great care. It might mean it isn't currently doing so, which is why I would suggest we make the government more efficient rather than hoping that someone else will care for our poor and disabled.


If you're going to make such a statement, you should back it up. No one I have ever known on welfare has abused it and spent money on luxuries (anecdotal, I know, but still) and most people on welfare do actually work but make very little since the minimum wage is unlivable in many parts of the US.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about because if you did then you would know that MAJORITY of national spending is because of social programs specifically SS, medicare, medicaid. When you have a large influx of people who don't pay then the rest of the country must fit the bill because there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Best way to get people insured is through a job, but the current administration is doing whatever it can to stop that from happening. If you lose it you can go on Cobra, but you shouldn't just get stuff for doing nothing.

I used to live in a city and I would see each month people wait outside the welfare office. The biggest group of cigarette smoking, iphone wielding, self-entitled people you will ever meet. Much of my views have been developed from living through them. I have come to realize that unless people work for things they become not grateful and always want more.

Now there are many good people who need welfare because they have caught a few bad breaks, I am ok with that. But there are far too many abuses.

 

[EyesOfTheWorld]

You obviously don't know what you're talking about because if you did then you would know that MAJORITY of national spending is because of social programs

This is a non-sequitur. I never claimed that the majority of spending wasn't social programs. So, I don't know how you're concluding that I don't know what I'm talking about just because I disagree. A majority of our spending should be social, in my opinion.

Of course there's no such thing as a free lunch, but there are people who make billions of dollars and people who work under them doing arguably more work and only make $7.25 an hour. With such wealth inequality, it's not fair that someone who works 40 hours per week can't even afford their own bills, insurance and food. Add children to the mix and it's even more radically unfair.

I used to live in a city and I would see each month people wait outside the welfare office. The biggest group of cigarette smoking, iphone wielding, self-entitled people you will ever meet. Much of my views have been developed from living through them. I have come to realize that unless people work for things they become not grateful and always want more.

I asked for proof, not anecdotal evidence. My anecdotal evidence does not prove a trend and neither does yours. Show me some data about welfare abuse, otherwise you're just being biased and making unfounded assumptions about "literally most" of welfare users. My experience with welfare users is exactly the opposite of yours, so obviously there are populations of welfare users you aren't considering at all.

As someone who wants to be a doctor, you should learn to be less confrontational and rude to people who disagree with you. More importantly, you need to base your assertions on evidence not just personal anecdotes. When you fail to use hard evidence, you get things like pseudoscience. I feel like these qualities are really important for medical practitioners (for all people, really, but especially doctors).

 

[DokterMom]

Clearly, you're of the opinion that poor people are a bunch of lazy, entitled bums who don't deserve our charity. Got it. Lot of compassion there, pre-med. But you're entitled to your opinion.

What about self-employed people who (prior to the ACA) were turned down for decent health insurance? But paid for lousy policies anyway? You keep replying to my posts, but you don't appear to have actually read them with any degree of comprehension.

 

[DokterMom]

And while I'm at it, can we talk about the kinds of health insurance that are available to low-wage workers who have jobs? Not to mention the fact that many hourly-wage workers don't qualify for insurance benefits because their employers hold them to under 30 hours per week, specifically so they don't qualify for health insurance? How's that for a Catch 22?

 

[deanthedream17]

Clearly, you're of the opinion that poor people are a bunch of lazy, entitled bums who don't deserve our charity. Got it. Lot of compassion there, pre-med. But you're entitled to your opinion.

What about self-employed people who (prior to the ACA) were turned down for decent health insurance? But paid for lousy policies anyway? You keep replying to my posts, but you don't appear to have actually read them with any degree of comprehension.

Insurance companies should not be able to deny people for preexisting conditions. I will agree with you. People should be able to buy affordable healthcare, but a government take over is NOT the way to go.

Also Doctors hate the plan (the AMA is a weak lobbyist group that was forced to support it because it was going through anyway) and it is lacking a huge part to it. Medical malpractice (tort) reform because all the president's cronies including the president are lawyers and the biggest supporter of the Democratic party is the trial lawyers association. Wait until most of you people get sued and tell me how great the system still it.

BTW I am not going to feel liberal guilt that you are trying to put on me. Its the same tactic you guys always use instead of thinking with your head you think with your heart.

 

[deanthedream17]

And while I'm at it, can we talk about the kinds of health insurance that are available to low-wage workers who have jobs? Not to mention the fact that many hourly-wage workers don't qualify for insurance benefits because their employers hold them to under 30 hours per week, specifically so they don't qualify for health insurance? How's that for a Catch 22?

There are plenty of options for low cost health insurance. You're trying to make excuses. People have no problem paying for everything except their health

 

[deanthedream17]

This is a non-sequitur. I never claimed that the majority of spending wasn't social programs. So, I don't know how you're concluding that I don't know what I'm talking about just because I disagree. A majority of our spending should be social, in my opinion.

Of course there's no such thing as a free lunch, but there are people who make billions of dollars and people who work under them doing arguably more work and only make $7.25 an hour. With such wealth inequality, it's not fair that someone who works 40 hours per week can't even afford their own bills, insurance and food. Add children to the mix and it's even more radically unfair.


I asked for proof, not anecdotal evidence. My anecdotal evidence does not prove a trend and neither does yours. Show me some data about welfare abuse, otherwise you're just being biased and making unfounded assumptions about "literally most" of welfare users. My experience with welfare users is exactly the opposite of yours, so obviously there are populations of welfare users you aren't considering at all.

As someone who wants to be a doctor, you should learn to be less confrontational and rude to people who disagree with you. More importantly, you need to base your assertions on evidence not just personal anecdotes. When you fail to use hard evidence, you get things like pseudoscience. I feel like these qualities are really important for medical practitioners (for all people, really, but especially doctors).

Look I care about people alot. I care about people so much that I don't want them to be screwed by this system. I know people are suffering, but this program will not, I repeat WILL NOT fix it. It will just make it worse for everyone.

When the top 0.1% pay approx 80% of the total taxes collected and nearly 50% pay no taxes at all it certainly looks like wealth distribution. You think just by taxing people more to redistribute it will just solve the problems. This isn't going to work. It never has. It just stops people from getting jobs since the people who would hire aren't going to hire. Plus the rich will find a way out of paying taxes anyway and the burden of cost will fall on the middle class where people have less of the resources to find loopholes.

I think our healthcare system is so beautiful that we need to spend time in drafting a bill that works rather than drafting a 2000 pg bill that the people signing it never even read just so the president can have something on his record for posterity.

Stop telling me I am a premed so I need to be nonjudgmental. I am still a person and can still have an opinion. Like i said the welfare system is there for a reason and there are many decent people

 

[NickNaylor]

Please show us some evidence of these supposedly wide-spread abuses. My quick research showed fraud/abuse rates of anywhere from 1-5%, which is a lot of money in absolute terms but pretty damn negligible relatively.

 

[NickNaylor]

Look I care about people alot. I care about people so much that I don't want them to be screwed by this system. I know people are suffering, but this program will not, I repeat WILL NOT fix it. It will just make it worse for everyone.

When the top 0.1% pay approx 80% of the total taxes collected and nearly 50% pay no taxes at all it certainly looks like wealth distribution. You think just by taxing people more to redistribute it will just solve the problems. This isn't going to work. It never has. It just stops people from getting jobs since the people who would hire aren't going to hire. Plus the rich will find a way out of paying taxes anyway and the burden of cost will fall on the middle class where people have less of the resources to find loopholes.

I think our healthcare system is so beautiful that we need to spend time in drafting a bill that works rather than drafting a 2000 pg bill that the people signing it never even read just so the president can have something on his record for posterity.

Stop telling me I am a premed so I need to be nonjudgmental. I am still a person and can still have an opinion. Like i said the welfare system is there for a reason and there are many decent people

I would encourage you to come down to my institution and spend a few days in the ED and see "how beautiful" our healthcare system is.

Also, you're right that taxes effectively are wealth redistribution. This is not a bad thing. Yes, it is unfair, but then again it's unfair that people can make more money than they'll ever spend in 5 lifetimes while others don't have enough for basic things like quality food and education.

But this is getting off-topic and more political than any kind of meaningful discussion.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

There are plenty of options for low cost health insurance. You're trying to make excuses. People have no problem paying for everything except their health

Really?! What country do you live in?

 

[EyesOfTheWorld]

Look I care about people alot. I care about people so much that I don't want them to be screwed by this system. I know people are suffering, but this program will not, I repeat WILL NOT fix it. It will just make it worse for everyone.

Excuse my language, but you're talking out of your ass here. You're not an expert and there's no way you know for sure that it will not work. You're hardly even defending that statement, and without seeing something in action you can't know if it's going to work or not. (Another principle of science you should know. You have to experimentally verify your results.) Socialized medicine works in a lot of countries and since our system was failing to care for many Americans while hemorrhaging money due to emergency room visits for those uninsured people to treat conditions that could have been prevented, we needed a solution and the ACA is what we got.

When the top 0.1% pay approx 80% of the total taxes collected and nearly 50% pay no taxes at all it certainly looks like wealth distribution. You think just by taxing people more to redistribute it will just solve the problems. This isn't going to work. It never has. It just stops people from getting jobs since the people who would hire aren't going to hire. Plus the rich will find a way out of paying taxes anyway and the burden of cost will fall on the middle class where people have less of the resources to find loopholes.

I think your understanding of economics is not as good as you'd like to think and your use of hard numbers without sourcing them makes any type of economic discussion futile.

I think our healthcare system is so beautiful that we need to spend time in drafting a bill that works rather than drafting a 2000 pg bill that the people signing it never even read just so the president can have something on his record for posterity.

Stop telling me I am a premed so I need to be nonjudgmental. I am still a person and can still have an opinion. Like i said the welfare system is there for a reason and there are many decent people

I'm not saying you can't be judgmental, humans are by nature. What I am saying is that as a premed you should base your opinions on FACTS and EVIDENCE not wishy washy feelings based on the handful of experiences you've had in your short life. You realize there are billions of people in the world, right? Why should your tiny fraction of life's experience be something to base such a harsh judgement on when you're only one perspective out of billions? Do you really think the tiny sliver of the world you've seen in your few years alive has been representative of any real trends?

 

[LMBLBM]

Yes literally most of the welfare system abuses it and spends the money on luxuries instead of working and all getting paid more than working just further discouraging them to get a job where they can healthcare through it.

From my VERY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, when my family immigrated to the U.S., we had no cell phones, no car, car pooled with neighbors and no TV for many years. I loved going to school even other students discriminated me because I was able to get free lunch. Working more? my dad had two part time jobs and my mom had a part time job. Do you seriously think that my family spend the money on luxuries? Do you know the fear of not being able to spend money but to save because if anything happens, (accident or traffic tickets) my family will go bankrupt?

During the gift swapping event at my church, I received an ipod with color display when it first came out. I really wonder what you thought of me if you saw me with an brand new ipod and waiting with my parents at a welfare office.

You disgust me.

 

[DermViser]

The WHO ranks US 37 of 191.
http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

Study in JAMA "The Anatomy of Health Care in the United States"
Taken from the abstract: "Despite the increases in resources devoted to health care, multiple health metrics, including life expectancy at birth and survival with many diseases, shows the United States trailing peer nations. The findings from this analysis contradict several common assumptions. "
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleID=1769890&utm_source=Silverchair Information Systems&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=MASTER:JAMALatestIssueTOCNotification11/12/2013
Some charts from the study
http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/chart-what-happened-to-us-life-expectancy/

The Commonwealth Fund "U.S Ranks Last Among Seven Countries on Health System Performance Based on Measures of Quality, Efficiency, Access, Equity, and Healthy Lives"
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub.../2010/jun/us-ranks-last-among-seven-countries

Institute of Medicine: "U.S. Health in International Perspective: Shorter lives, poorer health"
http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Report Files/2013/US-Health-International-Perspective/USHealth_Intl_PerspectiveRB.pdf

Wow, so much fail.

The WHO is hardly the arbiter of good healthcare - i.e. how they define abortions for example, when it comes to infant mortality thus making certain countries look better than they actually are when it comes to not "counting" certain deaths. A better look is at cancer survival rates from time of diagnosis: http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/11/23/the-myth-of-americans-poor-life-expectancy/

The Commonwealth Fund headed by John Blumenthal is a well known Obama operative.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/20...en-attacks-it-because-its-not-liberal-enough/

The Institute of Medicine - look at the Board of Members, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Medicine, they're known for wanting to give NPs full, independent practice rights.

 

[EyesOfTheWorld]

During the gift swapping event at my church, I received an ipod with color display when it first came out. I really wonder what you thought of me if you saw me with an brand new ipod and waiting with my parents at a welfare office.

Such a salient example. I really hate when people judge others based on outer appearances without knowing anything about that person's life. My family has always been excessively broke but I have some designer clothes and bags because my mom cleans for a very wealthy family who happens to have a daughter that wears my size and buys new clothes all the time. We were on welfare, had free lunches, and I get a ton of financial aid but a lot of people would look at my appearance and assume I'm wasting money I should be spending on necessities.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

From my VERY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, when my family immigrated to the U.S., we had no cell phones, no car, car pooled with neighbors and no TV for many years. I loved going to school even other students discriminated me because I was able to get free lunch. Working more? my dad had two part time jobs and my mom had a part time job. Do you seriously think that my family spend the money on luxuries? Do you know the fear of not being able to spend money but to save because if anything happens, (accident or traffic tickets) my family will go bankrupt?

During the gift swapping event at my church, I received an ipod with color display when it first came out. I really wonder what you thought of me if you saw me with an brand new ipod and waiting with my parents at a welfare office.

You disgust me.

I also relied on school lunches (even in the summer) to eat. Every now and then, I was fortunate enough to get a nice hand-me-down that I'm sure was misinterpreted by others.

God, I wish ppl were more open-minded...

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Such a salient example. I really hate when people judge others based on outer appearances without knowing anything about that person's life. My family has always been excessively broke but I have some designer clothes and bags because my mom cleans for a very wealthy family who happens to have a daughter that wears my size and buys new clothes all the time. We were on welfare, had free lunches, and I get a ton of financial aid but a lot of people would look at my appearance and assume I'm wasting money I should be spending on necessities.

Lol, I got some of my nice Ralph Lauren gear from a wealthy family when I was growing up.

 

[EyesOfTheWorld]

As a side note, thank goodness for those families that buy a lot of clothes and pass them on to others. I haven't been able to buy any new clothes since my graduation dress in HS but I have practically a new wardrobe because of this family.

 

[deanthedream17]

From my VERY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, when my family immigrated to the U.S., we had no cell phones, no car, car pooled with neighbors and no TV for many years. I loved going to school even other students discriminated me because I was able to get free lunch. Working more? my dad had two part time jobs and my mom had a part time job. Do you seriously think that my family spend the money on luxuries? Do you know the fear of not being able to spend money but to save because if anything happens, (accident or traffic tickets) my family will go bankrupt?

During the gift swapping event at my church, I received an ipod with color display when it first came out. I really wonder what you thought of me if you saw me with an brand new ipod and waiting with my parents at a welfare office.

You disgust me.

I appreciate that I "disgust you". Do you know something? My grandparents were dirt poor when they immigrated from Italy. They asked for nothing. No handouts. They worked hard and lived at or below their means and saved. Nowadays, people have a different mindset that if you are missing something, there will be somebody else to provide it for you. People have no money yet they bring more children into the world.

 

[EyesOfTheWorld]

So, should dirt poor premeds ask for no handouts and literally never make it to become a doctor? Only people who are born with everything handed to them as soon as they come out of the womb should be able to attend med school?

That's basically what you're saying. Poor people might "ask for handouts" in your mind but the top income earners in the US are largely made up of families who passed down legacies. I don't see how being born into a half a million (or more) college fund is any different than getting welfare or financial aid or any other "handouts".

 

[DermViser]

So, should dirt poor premeds ask for no handouts and literally never make it to become a doctor? Only people who are born with everything handed to them as soon as they come out of the womb should be able to attend med school?

That's basically what you're saying. Poor people might "ask for handouts" in your mind but the top income earners in the US are largely made up of families who passed down legacies. I don't see how being born into a half a million (or more) college fund is any different than getting welfare or financial aid or any other "handouts".

Becoming a physician is not a "right" in this country. The country does not owe you an occupation. You are sounding very entitled.

 

[deanthedream17]

So, should dirt poor premeds ask for no handouts and literally never make it to become a doctor? Only people who are born with everything handed to them as soon as they come out of the womb should be able to attend med school?

That's basically what you're saying. Poor people might "ask for handouts" in your mind but the top income earners in the US are largely made up of families who passed down legacies. I don't see how being born into a half a million (or more) college fund is any different than getting welfare or financial aid or any other "handouts".

There are loans available for a reason

 

[EyesOfTheWorld]

Becoming a physician is not a "right" in this country. The country does not owe you an occupation.

So, you do think that only those who are born into wealth should be able to become physicians?

Many countries believe education is a right, as do I.

There are loans available for a reason

And what if you have no cosigner? Federal loans don't require one but that only goes so far. Grants are helpful with that, but it seems like you disagree with those?


This is getting way off topic and we fundamentally disagree. I'd never be a doctor without the financial resources available to me in this country, though, and many people are even more disadvantaged than I was growing up and they'll never get a chance even if they would have become incredible physicians while some people who don't even really want to be a physician can afford to do so because they got lucky with wealthy parents. I don't think that's right, but you're entitled to.

 

[DermViser]

So, you do think that only those who are born into wealth should be able to become physicians?

Many countries believe education is a right, as do I.

And what if you have no cosigner? Federal loans don't require one but that only goes so far. Grants are helpful with that, but it seems like you disagree with those?

This is getting way off topic and we fundamentally disagree. I'd never be a doctor without the financial resources available to me in this country, though, and many people are even more disadvantaged than I was growing up and they'll never get a chance even if they would have become incredible physicians while some people who don't even really want to be a physician can afford to do so because they got lucky with wealthy parents. I don't think that's right, but you're entitled to.

My point is you don't have a "right" to something when you're asking someone ELSE to pay for it and offer it to you. Medical services, education, etc. all services requiring money. You don't have a "right" to go Harvard or a "right" to go to University of Colorado. You don't have a "right" to their services.

No one "born into wealth" is automatically given a ticket to medical school. Again, being a physician is not a "right". There are other professions which are cheaper and can get you to the same end - NP or PA, so it's not as if it's a one-time opportunity thing, as well as many other respectable occupations.

You need to learn this, if you haven't already: Life isn't fair.

If you don't learn this quick, things will be very painful for you.

 

[Lamel]

Can you please explain how you lost your freedom @Lamel?

Obviously joking. I think it is a step in the right direction.

Where else in the world can you go for the most advanced medical treatment, the best hospitals, the center for drug development. People all over the world come here to receive medical care. Obamacare and socialized medicine suck it leads to long wait times and inferior treatment. Look at canada. People need to get private insurance to be able to receive care in a timely manner.

Who cares how good or advanced our medical care is if numerous people can't even access or afford it? From your posts you seem to not get that point.

It's sad to see a potential future doctor lacks the perspective of such a large portion of society.


Edit: Never mind, this thread has turned into a bunch of "bootsraps" nonsense. We have people justifying lack of access to medical care because now medical care is not a right. That says a lot about attitudes in this country, and its this lack of societal cooperation that will hold us back.

 

[EyesOfTheWorld]

My point is you don't have a "right" to something when you're asking someone ELSE to pay for it and offer it to you. Medical services, education, etc. all services requiring money. You don't have a "right" to go Harvard or a "right" to go to University of Colorado. You don't have a "right" to their services.

No one "born into wealth" is automatically given a ticket to medical school. Again, being a physician is not a "right". There are other professions which are cheaper and can get you to the same end - NP or PA, so it's not as if it's a one-time opportunity thing, as well as many other respectable occupations.

You need to learn this, if you haven't already: Life isn't fair.

If you don't learn this quick, things will be very painful for you.

No need to be condescending, your opinion is not the end-all-be-all. Many people believe education is a right, and I think it is as well. You can disagree all you want but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Being born into wealth makes going to medical school an uphill battle rather than climbing out of a pit with no climbing equipment before you even start to get to the hill. All I think that should be provided for people who want to dedicate their lives to helping others and serving their community is a ladder.

 

[DermViser]

No need to be condescending, your opinion is not the end-all-be-all. Many people believe education is a right, and I think it is as well. You can disagree all you want but that doesn't make you right and me wrong

Being born into wealth makes going to medical school an uphill battle rather than climbing out of a pit with no climbing equipment before you even start to get to the hill. All I think that should be provided for people who want to dedicate their lives to helping others and serving their community is a ladder.

As @deanthedream17 mentioned there are loans. If you don't have a cosigner, then that's not the lender's problem. Any one who takes an education loan is a huge risk to the lender, plain and simple.

I am not being condescending. The term "right" and "want" are consistently interchanged by people and they aren't. You are free to believe what you want. If you have a right to education, walk into college courses, take exams, etc. and tell them you deserve to be there bc you have a right to education, without paying your tuition bill. Let me know how it turns out.

 

[EyesOfTheWorld]

Resorting to "life isn't fair, you should learn that" is condescending when we're having a discussion about economics and what should and shouldn't be a right in any given society.

Why do you have to resort to misrepresenting what I'm saying? I'm not saying educators shouldn't be compensated, I'm saying society would be better off helping those who cannot help themselves in this realm. Considering that financial aid and federal loans and grants exist, at least some portion of the country agrees with that. In other places, even more people agree and have decided to use their tax dollars to fund education entirely. In some places, education is a right. Not a "right" interchanged with a "want", but a legal right that is funded by the taxpayers voluntarily. Rights come directly from the wants of the people anyway, at least in democracies, so it's not like the two terms are completely at odds.

 

[kk123]

No need to be condescending, your opinion is not the end-all-be-all. Many people believe education is a right, and I think it is as well. You can disagree all you want but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Being born into wealth makes going to medical school an uphill battle rather than climbing out of a pit with no climbing equipment before you even start to get to the hill. All I think that should be provided for people who want to dedicate their lives to helping others and serving their community is a ladder.

Some of us managed to climb out of that pit through hard work, not relying on someone else to help us out of it.
Although sometimes a little jealous of those that get a running start...but who said life was fair?

 

[Mr Interesting]

No one "born into wealth" is automatically given a ticket to medical school.

Unless your father is a wealthy doctor and prominent Republican fundraiser and donor

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20080410/NEWS/804100319

 

[EyesOfTheWorld]

No one gets by completely on their own.

Since when is getting financial aid "relying on someone else" to get you anywhere? To get to medical school, even if it's fully paid for it requires hard work. Even being born wealthy you have to work hard to get to medical school. However, when you can't afford basic necessities, tutors, MCAT prep, applications, tuition, rent, food, etc it's a lot harder to do it "all on your own" and for many people it's not possible without outside help. Paying for tuition without any financial aid would require a full time job and several years off from school. And that's if you can find a full time job with a liveable wage that will also allow you to save for tuition, which simply doesn't exist in many areas especially for an unskilled worker without a college degree.

 

[DermViser]

Unless your father is a wealthy doctor and prominent Republican fundraiser and donor

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20080410/NEWS/804100319

Wow, 1 instance. Yeah and that admissions dean was kicked out, esp. as the student hadn't even taken the MCAT.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Unless your father is a wealthy doctor and prominent Republican fundraiser and donor

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20080410/NEWS/804100319

Lol- I guess med school was his inalienable right.

 

[Mr Interesting]

Wow, 1 instance. Yeah and that admissions dean was kicked out, esp. as the student hadn't even taken the MCAT.

Lol, come on. Where is your sense of humor? I added the smiley in there, it was a joke.

 

[Doudline]

Some of us managed to climb out of that pit through hard work, not relying on someone else to help us out of it.
Although sometimes a little jealous of those that get a running start...but who said life was fair?

It is categorically impossible, from a statistical point of view, for everyone to be above the poverty level in the USA. There has been a minimal unemployment level for decades, and resources do not fall from the sky (not all of them anyway ); there's only so much to spare. By climbing out of that pit, as you put it, you literally condemned another person to stay in it.

(And it's not an insignificant percentage either; when economists say that the gap between the poorest and the richest has increased, it indirectly means that the amount of people who HAVE to stay poor for the economy to keep going as it is is also increasing. And it will KEEP increasing until we do something about it.)

 

[DermViser]

Lol, come on. Where is your sense of humor? I added the smiley in there, it was a joke.

LOL, I know. Also, I believe he was a Northwestern HPME student: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/university-of-florida-c-o-2012.458621/page-5

Maybe he was trying to transfer to be closer to home?

 

[Mr Interesting]

LOL, I know. Also, I believe he was a Northwestern HPME student: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/university-of-florida-c-o-2012.458621/page-5

Maybe he was trying to transfer to be closer to home?

Hmm, maybe. I remember the whole thing being a big deal out here. I never seen that thread before, thanks for the link.

 

[basketcase0a0]

Yes literally most of the welfare system abuses it and spends the money on luxuries instead of working and all getting paid more than working just further discouraging them to get a job where they can healthcare through it.

Care to back the bolded up with any sources at all? A cursory search turns up the number being somewhere around 1.9%-2.67% of all welfare transactions being fraudulent. So 2%, which is a larger number than you'd like (~$2.5 billion) but hardly "literally most" of the $131.9 billion spent annually on welfare/EBT.

Also none of that seems salient to the cost of the ACA, which at the moment seems to be difficult to actually tell given the far reaching implications and short timeframe of such a law.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Care to back the bolded up with any sources at all? A cursory search turns up the number being somewhere around 1.9%-2.67% of all welfare transactions being fraudulent. So 2%, which is a larger number than you'd like (~$2.5 billion) but hardly "literally most" of the $131.9 billion spent annually on welfare/EBT.

Also none of that seems salient to the cost of the ACA, which at the moment seems to be difficult to actually tell given the far reaching implications and short timeframe of such a law.

On the other hand, corporate fraud and welfare is a huge problem...

 

[DermViser]

Resorting to "life isn't fair, you should learn that" is condescending when we're having a discussion about economics and what should and shouldn't be a right in any given society.

Why do you have to resort to misrepresenting what I'm saying? I'm not saying educators shouldn't be compensated, I'm saying society would be better off helping those who cannot help themselves in this realm. Considering that financial aid and federal loans and grants exist, at least some portion of the country agrees with that. In other places, even more people agree and have decided to use their tax dollars to fund education entirely. In some places, education is a right. Not a "right" interchanged with a "want", but a legal right that is funded by the taxpayers voluntarily. Rights come directly from the wants of the people anyway, at least in democracies, so it's not like the two terms are completely at odds.

Anyway, we're not going to agree and I'm going to go study.

Sorry but "life isn't fair" isn't condescending at all. It's reality. Just like economics is reality. You saying what should or shouldn't be done or what benefits society are value and morality judgements. That's fine for you to state, but to conflate them with "rights" are an entirely different discussion.

 

[EyesOfTheWorld]

Are you not reading what I wrote? "Rights" vary from society to society. In some countries today, education is valued as a right and is treated as such. I'm not saying anything about what should and shouldn't be done when I say that.

Saying that "life isn't fair, deal with it" when we're having a discussion is dismissive and condescending.

 

[plumazul]

Here is an interesting story about how things are going in Massachusetts (which got a head start on the ACA since the almost identical Romneycare was implemented there first). It appears they are approaching 0% uninsured.

Also, for those in the thread that appear confused about the origin of current healthcare policy:

Major portions of the ACA, including the much debated individual mandate to purchase healthcare, originated in the Republican Party and right wing think-tanks as a rebuttal to single payer being offered by left leaning institutions. Many Republicans are now against it solely because the President agreed to it.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Here is an interesting story about how things are going in Massachusetts (which got a head start on the ACA since the almost identical Romneycare was implemented there first). It appears they are approaching 0% uninsured.

Also, for those in the thread that appear confused about the origin of current healthcare policy:

Major portions of the ACA, including the much debated individual mandate to purchase healthcare, originated in the Republican Party and right wing think-tanks as a rebuttal to single payer being offered by left leaning institutions. Many Republicans are now against it solely because the President agreed to it.

What's funny is that the Heritage Foundation tried to disown it and was later called out on it by the Wall Street Journal (not exactly a liberal bastion- lol).

 

[deanthedream17]

Here is an interesting story about how things are going in Massachusetts (which got a head start on the ACA since the almost identical Romneycare was implemented there first). It appears they are approaching 0% uninsured.

Also, for those in the thread that appear confused about the origin of current healthcare policy:

Major portions of the ACA, including the much debated individual mandate to purchase healthcare, originated in the Republican Party and right wing think-tanks as a rebuttal to single payer being offered by left leaning institutions. Many Republicans are now against it solely because the President agreed to it.

This plan is nothing like Romneycare. Romneycare passed with bipartisan support and isn't going to increase the deficit. Too many socialists on this forum that want their money they earn one day to be happily redistributed by their dear leader.