How to break moderately bad news

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

sonofva

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
1,061
Reaction score
384
How do you guys start these conversations? Not things like "im sorry but your mom is dead." But things like "you have a broken bone/kidney stone/appendicitis" ... im trying to work on my finesse a bit.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

Members don't see this ad.
 

Bouddha

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Messages
139
Reaction score
26
How do you guys start these conversations? Not things like "im sorry but your mom is dead." But things like "you have a broken bone/kidney stone/appendicitis" ... im trying to work on my finesse a bit.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

I may be insensitive, but especially with more minor stuff like this, I don't think there's anything gained by skirting around the subject. I would argue, the only difference between this and the more significant conversations (i.e. you have cancer, your mom is dead, etc), is that with those you have to lead up to the big news with hints that allow for, however brief, some psychological prep.

I think finesse/actual conveyance of empathy comes after the news is delivered through listening to the patient/family and giving them the opportunity to be heard. Plus making sure they fully understand what everything means.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

BoardingDoc

Don't worry. I've got my towel.
Volunteer Staff
10+ Year Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2010
Messages
2,873
Reaction score
5,676
How do you guys start these conversations? Not things like "im sorry but your mom is dead." But things like "you have a broken bone/kidney stone/appendicitis" ... im trying to work on my finesse a bit.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile
Very matter-of-fact with an air of "well, shucks" to the conversation. Making anything more than that out of it only leads the patient to think they're worse off than they are.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)

Vandalia

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2014
Messages
937
Reaction score
1,528
Note that we are only talking about the population of ED patients that actually have something wrong here.

If a patient like that comes to the ED, it is because either they, their friends, or their family think something bad is going on. The 20 year old with a "sprained ankle" is not going to show up in the ED. It is only when he realizes that something is wrong that he comes. Same think with the man who only thinks he has "indigestion."

So if these types of patients show up, they are already expecting bad news of some sort. It also helps to get them ready for it when you first see them and lay out a limited differential and plan for testing. The patent should not be completely unprepared when you give them the final diagnosis and treatment plan. That gives them time to digest it a bit. Then, when you give them the news, they are generally happy that they have an answer and their worst fears have not come true. If something very bad or unexpected comes up, then that is a different conversation from "moderately bad news."
 

AlmostAnMD

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
761
Reaction score
1,538
"I have something moderately bad to tell you"
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users

Tenk

Full Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2007
Messages
3,107
Reaction score
12,098
I usually just say it and say I'm sorry and let them take it in and vent.

I.e. Got the ct results and I'm sorry but you have appendicitis :/ <- make this face irl
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

K31

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
999
Reaction score
55
Appendicitis/fracture/etc. isn't even moderately bad news in my mind. That's called "your diagnosis." Moderately bad news in my mind is the "you have cancer" talk or similar. There's no beating around the bush, just get to the diagnosis and the plan when you have a patient like that--i.e. we'll put you in a splint and you'll follow up with Ortho; Surgery will be in to see you, etc.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Arcan57

Junior Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2003
Messages
3,310
Reaction score
2,718
Appendicitis/fracture/etc. isn't even moderately bad news in my mind. That's called "your diagnosis." Moderately bad news in my mind is the "you have cancer" talk or similar. There's no beating around the bush, just get to the diagnosis and the plan when you have a patient like that--i.e. we'll put you in a splint and you'll follow up with Ortho; Surgery will be in to see you, etc.
Have some vague recognition that the patient in front of you faces some hardship that you would not want yourself or a loved one to have. A sympathetic tone goes a long way. If you need extra credit, congratulating them on appropriately seeking medical attention (in a non-patronizing way) or a quick rundown of how the situation could have been worse (fortunately it doesn't appear perfed or the good news is that the blood vessels and nerves are working) should wrap things up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

gman33

Full Member
Moderator Emeritus
15+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
2,187
Reaction score
511
It starts before you know what is going on.

I'm glad you came in so we can decrease your pain and try to figure what's going on.

On repeat eval when you have studies back, I'm glad you came in. You have x and this is what we are going to do next.

What questions do you have that I can try to answer?

I try to convince them that I am there to try to help them. If they think you care, the news generally goes over better.
 

e30ftw

peace
10+ Year Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2012
Messages
570
Reaction score
554
*knock on the door*

Enter the room quietly.

Ask, "Hey, how are you feeling?" in a genuinely concerned voice. Maybe say, "Did the pain medicine make you feel any better?"

Wait for response.

State, "The radiologist and I took a look at your 'cat' scan and it looks like you do have appendicitis."

pause momentarily for effect.

"The good news is that while this does involve surgery, it is typically an easily treatable and curative disease. I've already spoken with the surgeon and we are going to give you some antibiotics, continue to treat your pain, and admit you to the hospital for surgery tomorrow. Remember not to eat or drink anything after midnight. Do you have any questions or anything else that you need at this time?"

The key is being genuine and calm with the patient. From the beginning of the encounter all your body language and vocal tone needs to relay that everything is going to be fine and no matter what happens they are getting the best care possible. Always address pain. Smile at family members. Imagine you are an airline pilot and the patient is a passenger. They are going to "fly with you" for a few hours.

No matter what happens, as the physician, you know whats going on and how to manage it. Turbulence, appendicitis, STEMI, respiratory failure.. these are all just normal expected things that happen in the ER. If you feel this way internally your natural body language and vocal tone will convey that sentiment to the patient and there will be a calming effect.

The art of medicine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

BAM!

Senior Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2004
Messages
744
Reaction score
330
How do you guys start these conversations? Not things like "im sorry but your mom is dead." But things like "you have a broken bone/kidney stone/appendicitis" ... im trying to work on my finesse a bit.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

appendicitis: just call surgery and let them tell the patient.
broken bone: let the ED EMT/Tech tell them as they're placing the splint.
kidney stone: "You have a kidney stone."

EZPZ
 

BAM!

Senior Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2004
Messages
744
Reaction score
330
*knock on the door*

Enter the room quietly.

Ask, "Hey, how are you feeling?" in a genuinely concerned voice. Maybe say, "Did the pain medicine make you feel any better?"

Wait for response.

State, "The radiologist and I took a look at your 'cat' scan and it looks like you do have appendicitis."

pause momentarily for effect.

"The good news is that while this does involve surgery, it is typically an easily treatable and curative disease. I've already spoken with the surgeon and we are going to give you some antibiotics, continue to treat your pain, and admit you to the hospital for surgery tomorrow. Remember not to eat or drink anything after midnight. Do you have any questions or anything else that you need at this time?"

The key is being genuine and calm with the patient. From the beginning of the encounter all your body language and vocal tone needs to relay that everything is going to be fine and no matter what happens they are getting the best care possible. Always address pain. Smile at family members. Imagine you are an airline pilot and the patient is a passenger. They are going to "fly with you" for a few hours.

No matter what happens, as the physician, you know whats going on and how to manage it. Turbulence, appendicitis, STEMI, respiratory failure.. these are all just normal expected things that happen in the ER. If you feel this way internally your natural body language and vocal tone will convey that sentiment to the patient and there will be a calming effect.

The art of medicine.

I feel like I just watched a new-hire training video after reading your response. :p
 

engineeredout

Full Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
3,451
Reaction score
627
Appendicitis or kidney stone is not what I'd consider moderately bad, but maybe my empathy was left in my other jacket.

Moderately bad is "you have a mass on your pancreas". I try to be as honest as possible with people in that situation. I tell them the findings aren't good, I tell them what they have, and I will say that although they need a workup to be sure, and I hope I get proven wrong, it is highly suspicious for cancer. People don't know the words "lesion, malignancy, mass, abnormal finding", but they know the word cancer.

The way I figure, that is the level of honesty I would like for myself or for any of my family members.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)

Old_Mil

Senior Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2004
Messages
2,298
Reaction score
911
How do you guys start these conversations? Not things like "im sorry but your mom is dead." But things like "you have a broken bone/kidney stone/appendicitis" ... im trying to work on my finesse a bit.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

Consider offering a non terminal diagnosis as "good news" in that we now have an answer for your question...
 

dchristismi

Gin and Tonic
15+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2003
Messages
1,224
Reaction score
1,064
So, the good news is that you DON'T have cancer. But you do have herpes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Cerberus

Heroic Necromancer
20+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2001
Messages
15,139
Reaction score
212
I don't sugar coat it. Never had a problem. People are usually happy that I have a diagnosis for their symptoms (as opposed to the "sorry, the 30th CT scan you've had in the last 2 years continues to provide no answer for your chronic pelvic pain")
 

Angry Birds

Angry Troll
10+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Messages
1,805
Reaction score
2,460
Break news like this guy:

 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

DocEspana

Bullish
10+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Messages
24,199
Reaction score
34,772
I don't sugar coat it. Never had a problem. People are usually happy that I have a diagnosis for their symptoms (as opposed to the "sorry, the 30th CT scan you've had in the last 2 years continues to provide no answer for your chronic pelvic pain")

Chronic pelvic pain? Thats a funny way to spell "depression"

(this comment works better for "fibromyalgia" and "interstitial cystitis", but apparently a decent chunk of chronic pelvic pain is probably depression and/or responsive to only anti-depressants)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
D

deleted480308

"We found an extra bone in your leg!...If you look at this picture...right here is your femur, and right below it is your other new femur.....you broke your femur"
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Mad Jack

Critically Caring
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
38,431
Reaction score
75,239
2011-01-10-doctor-cat.jpg
 

SoCuteMD

Full Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
8,630
Reaction score
726
"So, we know what's causing your pain. It looks like you have..."
 

dchristismi

Gin and Tonic
15+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2003
Messages
1,224
Reaction score
1,064
I think he meant 6 pieces of femur...
 

Jlaw

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2009
Messages
812
Reaction score
275
After my H+P I usually take a minute or two to tell the patient about the workup and I try to give the best and worst case scenarios. Your patients aren't stupid, they have most likely already googled their symptoms/injury and have a better differential than you do. Honesty and a plan will ingratiate you with most reasonable people.
 
D

da8s0859q

most likely already googled their symptoms/injury and have a better differential than you do. Honesty and a plan will ingratiate you with most reasonable people.

Honesty and a plan, yes, but I'm not sure googling equals a "better differential" if the doc in question is thinking even a little.
 

Apollyon

Screw the GST
Lifetime Donor
20+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2002
Messages
23,417
Reaction score
10,041
Your patients aren't stupid
Did you keep a straight face when you typed that? Not belittling, but, honestly, the ED pts are not he brightest. I got a great piece of advice about 10 years ago - a colleague told me to always give the "easy to read" instructions, and even THOSE might not be easy to read for many ED pts. As I've said, the only time we see "normal people" in the ED is when they suffer trauma, ranging from cut fingers to rolling their cars, or they have crushing chest pain.

As they Google their signs and symptoms, their other windows are on TMZ and PopSugar or whatever popular dreck there is. It's one thing to look, but quite another to see.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users

b-real

What, me worry?
15+ Year Member
20+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2001
Messages
954
Reaction score
36
After my H+P I usually take a minute or two to tell the patient about the workup and I try to give the best and worst case scenarios. Your patients aren't stupid, they have most likely already googled their symptoms/injury and have a better differential than you do. Honesty and a plan will ingratiate you with most reasonable people.

1) a large percentage of pts are dumb as rocks

2) a large differential from the webmd symptom checker does not equal a "better" differential.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Top