how to get into Harvard

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pathstudent

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I had lunch the other day with Dan Federman who has spent his whole life at Harvard University and HMS. He is currently the Dean of Clinical Teaching and was Dean of Admissions for 20 years.

I asked him what should a freshman in college know in order to to get into Harvard Medical School down the road. He said having a 4.0 is not enough. He said they could fill the school 3-4 times over with students that have 4.0 from top schools. You must have that extra "something something" like being a Karate Champ, have won a triathalon, written a play, had an interesting career in another field, or anything that makes you different. Plus he said having shown a strong commitment to medicine by volunteering in a clinic or hospital is MANDATORY. Although the new HIPAA regulations will likely disallow student volunteers in clinical medicine (as a violation of the rights of privacy). He said this will be a big problem.

In any case, getting a 40 on the MCAT and a 4.0 from Univ Of Mich will not get you in if you are a complete tool in all other areas of life.

Good Luck getting into Harvard.

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The Dean's advice to you isn't unique to Harvard in the least. You need a lot more than just a 4.0 GPA to get into ANY medical school. :rolleyes:
 
not true a 4.0 from Berk and a 40 MCAT would get you in all over the place
 
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Originally posted by pathstudent
not true a 4.0 from Berk and a 40 MCAT would get you in all over the place

Is that based on one person you know, who probably had good ECs and experience too?

And why would you say such a thing, based on what you had written previously about what the dean told you? :rolleyes:

Ahhh, naive froshies... Welcome to SDN. :)
 
what a joke medical school admissions has become. "Karate Champ, won a triathalon, written a play, had an interesting career in another field, or anything that makes you different"

that's great. this is relevant to medicine how? oh yes, so you can be a better person and better clinician. medicine is the only thing that cares about things that have nothing to do with medicine.

gee, i sure wish presidential debates included mention of bush and gore's extracurricular activities, because a love of painting or collecting cars is really relevant to leading a country. it's hard to argue with something like that... i mean, those things will make a president more interesting and will make him a better people person.

think about it. business, law, graduate school... they don't care anywhere near about your unrelated activities as much as medicine does. it's stupid. medicine is a profession for goodness sake. why are admissions committees putting so much emphasis on the ability for someone to have something interesting to say while taking a history. "hey bob, you have cancer. but good news, i played lacrosse in college, maybe we can talk about that to make you feel better!"
 
Originally posted by Street Philosopher
what a joke medical school admissions has become. "Karate Champ, won a triathalon, written a play, had an interesting career in another field, or anything that makes you different"

that's great. this is relevant to medicine how? oh yes, so you can be a better person and better clinician. medicine is the only thing that cares about things that have nothing to do with medicine.

gee, i sure wish presidential debates included mention of bush and gore's extracurricular activities, because a love of painting or collecting cars is really relevant to leading a country. it's hard to argue with something like that... i mean, those things will make a president more interesting and will make him a better people person.

think about it. business, law, graduate school... they don't care anywhere near about your unrelated activities as much as medicine does. it's stupid. medicine is a profession for goodness sake. why are admissions committees putting so much emphasis on the ability for someone to have something interesting to say while taking a history. "hey bob, you have cancer. but good news, i played lacrosse in college, maybe we can talk about that to make you feel better!"

:laugh: so true.
 
Originally posted by Street Philosopher
"hey bob, you have cancer. but good news, i played lacrosse in college, maybe we can talk about that to make you feel better!"
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
I kinda disagree that success in areas not related to medicine is irrelevant. The magazine Chicago (I think?) comes out with a list of "Best Doctors" every year or so. One thing on that list that jumps out at you right off the bat : they're not just extremely accomplished doctors in their respective fields, but also amazing human beings. Many are leaders in areas outside of medicine (community, sports, music, etc.).

I think this is what med schools are banking on. That if you have the desire/drive/passion/intelligence to succeed in one area, you certainly have the ability to do it in medicine.

I don't think adcoms see your extracurricular activities as making you a better practicing physician. Rather, that it shows you have potential for becoming a leader in the profession - and thus elevating the name of the school that trained you. As the OP said, finding an intelligent person is easy; finding an intelligent, compassionate person is a bit harder; finding an intelligent, compassionate leader is where the real challenge is.
 
Personally, I think the only reason med schools look for other qualities in people is because they can. If they were having trouble filling every seat, they'd be out scouring the prisons looking for possible applicants. That's what happens when you have 2 to 3 times more applicants than seats to fill.

I agree with SP. It's such nonsense. 90% of the crap you see on applications were done because the applicant knew that medical schools looked disfavorably on an application without it. My friends and I had our "checklist". Okay, I did my volunteer time, check, I did my research, check, I'm setting up a possible LOR, check, hmm.. I'm not president of any clubs, gonna have to rectify that soon!

Just look at how many threads on SDN are posted by people asking whether they have enough volunteer time, or can they get accepted with no research etc. And I don't blame them for asking. Med schools make students jump through so many hoops it can get dizzying.
 
I think partly they are looking for outside qualities because the competition is so stiff. They just can't eliminate in terms of grades alone because there's bound to be differences in GPAs, etc.
Partly also, they want to be able to find students that are well-rounded and stable enough socially to make it through the medical school years. A marathon runner probably has more stamina, patience than the avg applicant.
Also perhaps more selfishly, they want star students as advertisement for their own school. Of course Harvard likes a Rhodes Scholar/Jazz musician, it makes them look good.

So maybe the admissions process goes both ways, they give you the knowledge that you need and you give them the qualities that you have.
 
Harvard isnt the only one thats picky like this. The OP is somehow insinuating that ONLY harvard looks for that stuff. Not true at all.

All the top med schools are picky. There are 20 schools with an acceptance rate less than 10%. All of them are picky like Harvard.

Harvard is not on a pedestal in their admissions selectivity. In fact, there are at least 5 schools which have a higher selectivity (WashU being #1).
 
Originally posted by Street Philosopher
"hey bob, you have cancer. but good news, i played lacrosse in college, maybe we can talk about that to make you feel better!"


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
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jmwalker was here
 
i work in hte harvard system. I have made connections at the harvard hospitals, harvard school of public health, nejm and i have taken clasess in hte HST program. people always said, "wow, so do youthink you will go to harvard?" I didn't even apply. i have sat in the classes and i know who gets into harvard and i know it is not me :) you are absolutely right, these people have accomplished careers outside of and prior to med school. i was not going to waste the application fee.

the thing is, schools like harvard and the big names are looking to admit people that will be the real movers and shakers of the field in 10-20 years. they are not concerned with making good clinicians. they are admitting a class that will shape the medical field of the future whether it be through hospital administration, govt legislation, scientific breakthroughs...dr. joe schmoe is none of their concern.
 
Man I want one of those Mexican Jumping Pigs.
 
Originally posted by bridgie
the thing is, schools like harvard and the big names are looking to admit people that will be the real movers and shakers of the field in 10-20 years. they are not concerned with making good clinicians. they are admitting a class that will shape the medical field of the future whether it be through hospital administration, govt legislation, scientific breakthroughs...dr. joe schmoe is none of their concern.

i think this is one of the most important point about getting into the top medical schools, and harvard specifically seems to place particular emphasis on this goal. i was lucky enough to get in to hms, and i am not even close to having a 4.0 or 40, or another career, or having run marathons or been a karate champ. i briefly worked in a lab and briefly volunteered in a hospital, but other than that i just did activities that i enjoyed. what i think was most important in my application, though, was that i expressed in my personal statement that i was interested in working on the problem of access to care and healthcare disparities on a national level, and that some of my activities (like my job in my year b/t undergrad and med school) have been oriented around this goal. basically my point is that noone should count theirself out from schools like harvard b/c they don't have a perfect gpa and 40+ mcats, or b/c they think they haven't fulfilled all the "traditional" premed ECs, or b/c they haven't already saved the world.
 
Just to know...Sunnygirl are you a URM?

I don't mean to insinuate anything...I am just curious.
She has been the most successful applicant I have seen on this site.

B
 
Oh yeah, I forgot, being a Karate Champ, have won a triathalon, or having written a play makes you better able to understand the etiology of disease and to help design cures.

Gimme a break, they emphasize ECs because they needed another criterion to filter applications through. I also would think that people who devote their time to something are more likely to be able to handle a med school courseload, because they are more efficient timemanagers.

But then again, people doing research or volunteering or whatnot for several hours a week might not have something as fancy as a black belt, but they too spent tons of time working.

I really just think its there as another criterion. I doubt playing lacrosse in high school makes you more likely to be president of the AMA or to win a Nobel Prize.
 
Well, I think the main reason top schools look for people with interesting backgrounds is that, since they have their pick of all the smartest applicants, they want a diverse and interesting class. Students at top 10 schools always say that one of the best things about their school are their classmates.

Another reason is that these schools indeed are trying to get the students who are going to go on to design cures, make medical history, etc. etc. More often than not (this has in fact been shown, according to one of my professors - I can't quote a study for you though), the people who go on to find major breakthroughs and win Nobel Prizes in fact ARE the very people who know how to do something ELSE outside of the lab. This is because people who spend all their time in academia and do things "by the book" get stuck trying to solve new problems in old fashioned ways, while those who are able to reconceptualize problems in a different way and try something new are the ones who ultimately find the solution. Certainly not always, but often, the latter are the same people who are painters, atheletes, or writers as well as scientists.
 
Originally posted by MacGyver
Harvard isnt the only one thats picky like this. The OP is somehow insinuating that ONLY harvard looks for that stuff. Not true at all.

All the top med schools are picky. There are 20 schools with an acceptance rate less than 10%. All of them are picky like Harvard.

Harvard is not on a pedestal in their admissions selectivity. In fact, there are at least 5 schools which have a higher selectivity (WashU being #1).

Yeah, but if I remember correctly the selectivity ranking is based almost entirely on numbers - MCAT and GPA - which, though important, are, as we know from this thread, not the main factor in admission to the top schools (except Wash U, probably, since their average MCAT is like 3 points above everyone else). I would think the selectivity ranking of a school would have more to do with the school's acceptance rate.
 
For Harvard, it helps a good deal if you've spent a year abroad, especially if it was in Africa. I repeat--especially Africa. Talk to HMS students, and you'll see that around half of them have taken a year off and done something.
 
The important thing is that people who are unique and are leaders as college students are going to be leaders as med students and leaders as doctors. They're not only going to treat patients, but they're going to treat patients and also lead the field - make important discoveries, change health care delivery, etc. That's why top schools want leaders. Because they'll be leaders as doctors and give prestige to the school. Just like Bill Clinton - he was a Yale Law student who showed promising leadership as an undergrad and as a Rhodes Scholar - and he became President. Top Med Schools and Law Schools look for the same uniqueness in the applicants.
 
top med schools and law schools do not look for the same thing. law school applications are primarily based on lsat score and gpa. one could make the case that it is more important for the law profession to demonstrate interpersonal skills and leadership ability, but law schools still do not make their admissions decisions primarily based on these factors. in fact, most law schools do not even interview students. med school admissions has become a circus. the most irrelevant factors for medicine have become the most important factors for admission to top schools.
 
Originally posted by Premed2003
The important thing is that people who are unique and are leaders as college students are going to be leaders as med students and leaders as doctors. They're not only going to treat patients, but they're going to treat patients and also lead the field - make important discoveries, change health care delivery, etc. That's why top schools want leaders. Because they'll be leaders as doctors and give prestige to the school. Just like Bill Clinton - he was a Yale Law student who showed promising leadership as an undergrad and as a Rhodes Scholar - and he became President. Top Med Schools and Law Schools look for the same uniqueness in the applicants.

Just like George W Bush. - he was a Harvard Business student who showed promising financial assets as an undergrad and as a frat leader - and he became President. Top Med Schools and Law Schools look for this same uniqueness in the applicants.
 
I agree with SunnyGirl. I was fortunate enough to get into HMS too. I believe that I sincerely enjoyed my activities and volunteering. The sincerity does come through within essays and within the interview especially with a student. My student interviewer was in my shoes two years ago, and he knew that I took a deep interest in all of the things that I did.

As far as the GPA and MCAT deal is, I am really far away from a high MCAT or 4.0 GPA. I felt I was lucky and fortunate to have Harvard accept me for my ambitions and passion for service.

-AIM-MEDDY
HMS 2007:clap:
 
Originally posted by Gleevec
Just like George W Bush. - he was a Harvard Business student who showed promising financial assets as an undergrad and as a frat leader - and he became President. Top Med Schools and Law Schools look for this same uniqueness in the applicants.

:laugh: That's because he was a business student - I'd like to see Dubya try his hand at O Chem.

Jwin et. al. - Come on guys, med school admissions sometimes isn't fair; there are flukes and with so many applicants, mistakes are definitely made, but I would hardly call the admissions process a "circus." What some of us are trying to say is that some of the unique things that applicants have done IS relevant to what type of doctor they will become later on. And it is not as if science GPA and MCATs are not taken into account - the top 10 schools also have the highest GPA and MCAT averages of all the schools, give or take a couple.

Also, universities like Harvard are more than just places to learn about medicine. They are academic communities that thrive on the interplay of different viewpoints, backgrounds. The whole point is to admit a med school class that will contribute to that as much as possible - how boring would it be if Harvard or Penn or Hopkins was filled with people whose only hobby was studying?
 
The top law schools do look for uniqueness. Do you know how hard it is to get into Yale or Harvard Law Schools? Yale Law is filled with Rhodes Scholalrs. Do you know how they became Rhodes Scholars? By being unique

You're right though that they don't have interviews - kind of strange. I guess that's how come so many lawyers are sleezeballs
 
The best scenario I see is this:

Alaskan Eskimo who enjoys hang-gliding, is a champion ballroom dancer, karate champion, volunteers to help the blind, and Dean of Admissions owes his father a HUGE favor.

Wow this individual would be the most under-represented of the URM and have all these other things mentioned above in his favor.

Too bad such a person probably does not exist. :D
 
Originally posted by Premed2003
Do you know how hard it is to get into Yale or Harvard Law Schools?

Not as hard as getting into Yale or Harvard med schools.
 
Actually, I know a Navaho with a 3.8+/40. I think hopkins and harvard are hand delivering his airplane ticket for the interview.

Hehe. And you know what? Good for him.
 
Originally posted by Rapid Decomposition
What some of us are trying to say is that some of the unique things that applicants have done IS relevant to what type of doctor they will become later on.

I completely agree with this. As ironic as it is, I was lucky enough to win a world championship in martial arts. Before that, I had a couple of hip surgeries to repair all of the injuries that I had done. You can all probably guess what field I want to go into - orthopaedic surgery. Now as far as this being a one-way ticket to Harvard, I didn't apply to Harvard. But, I did apply to some of the other top schools and none of them have come banging down my door. My closest top five school is a Duke waitlist. But, my grades suffered a little while I was competing seriously (~3.5 during my first two years and close to a 4.0 my last two) and my MCAT scores were decent (not as high as I wanted but high enough to be competitive). That being said, although top five medical schools like diversity, they are also looking for high enough numbers. They get so many applications from qualified applicants - they can pick and choose exactly who they want.
 
Originally posted by Rapid Decomposition
:laugh: That's because he was a business student - I'd like to see Dubya try his hand at O Chem.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
Originally posted by pathstudent

Although the new HIPAA regulations will likely disallow student volunteers in clinical medicine (as a violation of the rights of privacy). He said this will be a big problem.



:laugh: :laugh: bbbbbbbb BS!!! :laugh: :laugh:

Maybe I could suggest reading HIPAA or taking a training class...the regulations have nothing to do with this. (Policies are already in effect at most hospitals, and the only change for volunteers is mandatory HIPAA training).

However, please keep us informed of your future conversations during dinner with the Dean of Harvard medical school....the information is invaluable. ;)
 
Originally posted by pathstudent
You must have that extra "something something" like being a Karate Champ, have won a triathalon, written a play, had an interesting career in another field...

Damn, and here I wasted all that time doing research on curative therapy for osteosarcomas. Maybe I should reapply next year, this time after I've won my black belt - especially since I came in a disappointing 3rd in the IronWoman last year. :(
 
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