How to Improve Med App Moving Forward

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PremedPri

Hello,

I am a 22M who recently graduated from UCLA with a degree in Psychobiology. I am currently in the middle of the current medical school application cycle- I strictly applied MD as I am primarily interested in pursuing allopathic medicine.


I am a CA resident
I have a 3.41 sGPA and a 3.47 cGPA.
I have 3 MCAT scores: 498, 505, 509.
I have 1792 Clinical Hours (Emergency Room Scribe, General Hospital Volunteering), 321 Community Service Hours (Soup Kitchen, Campus Clubs, Wheelchair Basketball Volunteer/Coordinator), 3019 Non-Clinical Hours (Patient Service Coordinator).

I initially applied with 4 LORS: 1 Emergency Medicine MD Director, 2 Science Professors, 1 Non-Science Professor.

- I recently obtained another MD LOR from a well-renowned hip and knee replacement orthopedic surgeon with whom I with. (recently sent to schools)


I am currently in a gap year, worked full time at an orthopedic institute in a health administrative/customer service/receptionist role. I am about to terminate my employment here and am pursuing a research role or direct medical assisting role.


I applied and submitted secondaries to 32 MD programs. Currently with 5 pre-interview rejections (Albany, Tulane, UACOM-P, MSUCHM, WVUSOM), 1 pre-interview hold (UACOM-Tucson), and 0 II.


I know the cycle is still early and my stats will most likely not attract early interview invites, and I am steadfast on pursuing strictly MD. With that said, what can I do to positively impact my application moving forward?


I appreciate any constructive feedback as well as positive sentiments!

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The Good: Your ECs are great!

The Truth: Your metrics are not on par with other MD applicants with below average GPAs and multiple MCAT scores of which 2 are below average. You have not illuminated why you are so against the DO route which begs the question of whether you want to become a doctor or you just want MD after your name.

My Honest $0.02: Drop your hesitancy to go DO. You are competitive for DO. Your insistence on only MD, while not impossible, will be a tougher mountain to climb.

GL.
 
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When did you submit your secondaries? Submitting in early July vs late August is a factor. Also, be prepared to get grilled for your choice to be MD only with your stats.
 
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As an ORM CA resident with a 3.47 GPA and two non-competitive prior MCATs, the best thing you can do is add some DO backups. I don't know what "pursue allopathic medicine means", since DO and MD will all be applying into the same residency match system by the time you reach that stage.
 
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The Good: Your ECs are great!

The Truth: Your metrics are not on par with other MD applicants with below average GPAs and multiple MCAT scores of which 2 are below average. You have not illuminated why you are so against the DO route which begs the question of whether you want to become a doctor or you just want MD after your name.

My Honest $0.02: Drop your hesitancy to go DO. You are competitive for DO. Your insistence on only MD, while not impossible, will be a tougher mountain to climb.

GL.

Thank you for responding and giving me your feedback! I maintain that I want to pursue MD as opposed to DO because I want to have a greater chance of matching into the specialties I have been interested in (cardiology, oncology). I am not too interested in pursuing primary care, and I do not want to be at a disadvantage against other MDs when applying for certain specialties. I understand that high-achieving DOs can most certainly match into competitive specialties, however I want to avoid the added pressure of being at the top of my class in a DO school to have a shot to achieve this. With that said, I know my stats are not the most competitive for MD schools, however I would like to portray myself as a competitive candidate to MD adcoms in spite of this, before changing route to the DO pathway. At the end of the day, I will apply to DO schools as well next cycle if I do not have success this cycle, but for this cycle I want to pursue MD only and do everything possible to make that happen. Is there anything you think I can improve on for my current application to improve these chances? Your input so far is much appreciated!! :)
 
When did you submit your secondaries? Submitting in early July vs late August is a factor. Also, be prepared to get grilled for your choice to be MD only with your stats.

I was complete at most schools late July, with the exception of a few MDs that I received secondaries from in early August. For these few schools I submitted secondaries within ten days. I understand/expect to receive criticism however I welcome all constructive advice!
 
...you don't match cardio/medonc, you match IM which is very accessible for DO, and then from there you go for fellowship.

It really doesn't make sense to add an additional cycle/year to this process for yourself.
 
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Stick to MD if that is what you are after. I took the advice from strangers on this forum and went to a DO school for two years after I was not admitted to any allopathic schools and was absolutely miserable the entire time. You have a reasonable chance of admission as is. Since your application is already submitted, there isn't much you can do in the meantime except perhaps send updates in a few months to schools you are particularly interested in or have a compelling reason to attend.
 
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As an ORM CA resident with a 3.47 GPA and two non-competitive prior MCATs, the best thing you can do is add some DO backups. I don't know what "pursue allopathic medicine means", since DO and MD will all be applying into the same residency match system by the time you reach that stage.

Thank you for the response! :) From my understanding DOs are at a disadvantage in comparison to MDs when applying to residencies/specialties. This is my reasoning for wanting to pursue MD primarily- the added pressure of being a top DO student in order to make residency matches more viable later on seems daunting, however it is something I will do if I do not have success with my current MD application cycle. At the end of the day I want to be a doctor, MD or DO, however I would like to minimize the obstacles I will have to go through to get to that point, if possible. I see going to an MD school versus a DO as one less hurdle to make that happen.
 
Stick to MD if that is what you are after. I took the advice from strangers on this forum and went to a DO school for two years after I was not admitted to any allopathic schools and was absolutely miserable the entire time.
I don't understand your advice here - you would tell someone the priorities should be MD > not be a doctor > DO ? What other option did you have than going DO?
 
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Thank you for the response! :) From my understanding DOs are at a disadvantage in comparison to MDs when applying to residencies/specialties. This is my reasoning for wanting to pursue MD primarily- the added pressure of being a top DO student in order to make residency matches more viable later on seems daunting, however it is something I will do if I do not have success with my current MD application cycle. At the end of the day I want to be a doctor, MD or DO, however I would like to minimize the obstacles I will have to go through to get to that point, if possible. I see going to an MD school versus a DO as one less hurdle to make that happen.
I completely understand why you'd prefer MD over DO.

I just don't understand why you'd want to add an additional cycle to the process. If you'd be happy to use DO as a last resort next year, why not just do it this year? Is it because you expect the second MD cycle would go a lot better...? You'd still have the same grades and scores.
 
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I was complete at most schools late July, with the exception of a few MDs that I received secondaries from in early August. For these few schools I submitted secondaries within ten days. I understand/expect to receive criticism however I welcome all constructive advice!

Ah okay. As stated by others on this forum, lower stat applicants tend to get reviewed later in the cycle (I'm on the mid/low end as well so I feel your pain). You might not hear back until November for II's.

As for improving your app, your EC's are solid but if possible, I would suggest a competitive post-bacc to improve your GPA's.
 
I don't understand your advice here - you would tell someone the priorities should be MD > not be a doctor > DO ? What other option did you have than going DO?

My options would have been reapplying or enrolling in a program abroad. In hindsight, I would have taken either of these two options instead of attending my former osteopathic institution.
 
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My options would have been reapplying or enrolling in a program abroad. In hindsight, I would have taken either of these two options instead of attending my former osteopathic institution.

No offense, but that's silly. My mother was an offshore MD and has failed getting a residency in primary care/OB, so an offshore degree is worthless if you are trying to practice medicine in the US. It worked for my dad who applied 20 years ago, but the environment has drastically changed since then. It seems like you so despised the DO route that you couldn't even stand being in a DO program.
 
My options would have been reapplying or enrolling in a program abroad. In hindsight, I would have taken either of these two options instead of attending my former osteopathic institution.
Let's assume since your app hadn't changed much the reapplication route was a no-go. You'd really prefer Caribbean to a DO? I assume you've already read the first hand accounts of schools over there, pretty much the same criticisms of the lower quality DO programs only to a much further extreme
 
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Stick to MD if that is what you are after. I took the advice from strangers on this forum and went to a DO school for two years after I was not admitted to any allopathic schools and was absolutely miserable the entire time. You have a reasonable chance of admission as is. Since your application is already submitted, there isn't much you can do in the meantime except perhaps send updates in a few months to schools you are particularly interested in or have a compelling reason to attend.
I agree with the above. If if is what you believe in, then go for it. There's a lot more to this than just raw numbers. Statistics are just used to rationalize what people are unable to explain.
 
Let's assume since your app hadn't changed much the reapplication route was a no-go. You'd really prefer Caribbean to a DO? I assume you've already read the first hand accounts of schools over there, pretty much the same criticisms of the lower quality DO programs only to a much further extreme

Yeah, if I could go back in time I would have enrolled in a Caribbean program in the first place. I actually transferred into one such program after taking the USMLE/COMLEX a few months ago (See my threads on the topic if you are interested in knowing more). So far, I have no complaints. It may be a taboo stance for some reason on this site, but I firmly believe that obtaining an MD is infinitely move valuable than getting a DO.
 
I agree with the above. If if is what you believe in, then go for it. There's a lot more to this than just raw numbers. Statistics are just used to rationalize what people are unable to explain.
Alternatively, statistics explain why people are unable to safely apply MD-only, like the fact that the ORM 3.4-3.6/28 bin fails to get in anywhere 80% of the time. And that's nationwide data, most of the 20% having success are getting into instate-friendly public schools in states with low stats medians. For CA specifically the fail rate is probably 95%. It makes no sense to add the cost + time of a second cycle when they've already acknowledged DO as their backup route.

Yeah, if I could go back in time I would have enrolled in a Caribbean program in the first place. I actually transferred into one such program after taking the USMLE/COMLEX a few months ago (See my threads on the topic if you are interested in knowing more). So far, I have no complaints. It may be a taboo stance for some reason on this site, but I firmly believe that obtaining an MD is infinitely move valuable than getting a DO.
Did you transfer into the basic science years, so you are comparing apples to apples with preclinical DO vs preclinical Caribbean? Or are you saying clinical rotations at Carib feels better than preclinicals did at DO?
 
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I'd also add the above discussion is interesting to me, but moot for OP, since their concern is about stigma during matching and the stigma against Caribbean (deserved or not) is undoubtedly just as bad or worse.
 
Alternatively, statistics explain why people are unable to safely apply MD-only, like the fact that the ORM 3.4-3.6/28 bin fails to get in anywhere 80% of the time. And that's nationwide data, most of the 20% having success are getting into instate-friendly public schools in stats with low stats medians. For CA specifically the fail rate is probably 95%. It makes no sense to add the cost + time of a second cycle when they've already acknowledged DO as their backup route.


Did you transfer into the basic science years, so you are comparing apples to apples with preclinical DO vs preclinical Caribbean? Or are you saying clinical rotations at Carib feels better than preclinicals did at DO?

No, I transferred after the basic science years (start of MS3). I am not trying to compare the two schools because such a comparison would not be reliable since basic sciences and clinical years are not compatible in nature. I just think that the OP should fully investigate all of his options if he gets to the end of the cycle without any MD acceptances. You do not know where the OP is from, what personally reasons he may have for prioritizing an allopathic medical education, or other factors in his portfolio. The notion that there is not a significant stigma against DOs in the match is naive and just plain wrong. A similar proportion of DOs end up in primary care when compared to FMGs. In addition, some highly competitive specialties are known to prefer MDs (of any kind) over DOs.
 
I completely understand why you'd prefer MD over DO.

I just don't understand why you'd want to add an additional cycle to the process. If you'd be happy to use DO as a last resort next year, why not just do it this year? Is it because you expect the second MD cycle would go a lot better...? You'd still have the same grades and scores.

I would hope that a reapplicant cycle would bring me more success and that is exactly why I would chose to add DO schools during the second cycle as opposed to the first- hopefully I can add a few changes to my application if a second cycle is needed, and put my best foot forward during next cycle and show MD adcoms that I am a good candidate (aside from my GPA/MCAT, which will not change in that time).

You're right in saying that taking another year to go through that cycle seems like a waste of time if I am okay with going DO as backup- I suppose I would feel most comfortable going DO if I do not have any MD success this cycle OR next cycle.
 
Ah okay. As stated by others on this forum, lower stat applicants tend to get reviewed later in the cycle (I'm on the mid/low end as well so I feel your pain). You might not hear back until November for II's.

As for improving your app, your EC's are solid but if possible, I would suggest a competitive post-bacc to improve your GPA's.


I have started to look at post-bacc/SMPS but do not know much about these programs. I suppose the high cost of these programs would be my main reason for trying to avoid going down this route, but If they would significantly improve my changes I would definitely consider this.

What's everyone's thoughts on post-bacc/SMP?
 
Stick to MD if that is what you are after. I took the advice from strangers on this forum and went to a DO school for two years after I was not admitted to any allopathic schools and was absolutely miserable the entire time. You have a reasonable chance of admission as is. Since your application is already submitted, there isn't much you can do in the meantime except perhaps send updates in a few months to schools you are particularly interested in or have a compelling reason to attend.

Thanks for the response! :) I appreciate hearing the optimistic side of this- I'm sorry you had that experience with DO. Any specific reason why you developed an aversion to it? I just added a 5th LOR to my app and plan on updating by Thanksgiving if I don't hear back. I guess it's a waiting game at this point! I also am trying my best to enjoy myself during my time off and not get consumed with all of this, however it's easier said than done haha.
 
No, I transferred after the basic science years (start of MS3). I am not trying to compare the two schools because such a comparison would not be reliable since basic sciences and clinical years are not compatible in nature. I just think that the OP should fully investigate all of his options if he gets to the end of the cycle without any MD acceptances. You do not know where the OP is from, what personally reasons he may have for prioritizing an allopathic medical education, or other factors in his portfolio. The notion that there is not a significant stigma against DOs in the match is naive and just plain wrong. A similar proportion of DOs end up in primary care when compared to FMGs. In addition, some highly competitive specialties are known to prefer MDs (of any kind) over DOs.
He explicitly stated his concern is due to the disadvantage in matching. I believe there is a significant stigma at many programs, but the same is 100% true for Caribbean as well to an even greater degree, and IM as a match target is not highly competitive/exclusive towards DO.

There is data on this that gave me reason to believe this, not just the SDN mantra. From the NRMP survey of program directors:

8GRI51H.png


52-53% often interview and rank osteo. Only 35-36% often interview and rank US IMG. I don't mean to be rude, but data is data, and going offshore is not a step in the right direction if your concern is stigma in the match.
 
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I would hope that a reapplicant cycle would bring me more success and that is exactly why I would chose to add DO schools during the second cycle as opposed to the first- hopefully I can add a few changes to my application if a second cycle is needed, and put my best foot forward during next cycle and show MD adcoms that I am a good candidate (aside from my GPA/MCAT, which will not change in that time).

You're right in saying that taking another year to go through that cycle seems like a waste of time if I am okay with going DO as backup- I suppose I would feel most comfortable going DO if I do not have any MD success this cycle OR next cycle.
There might be a middle ground based on timing - add DO schools this cycle. If MD interviews start rolling in, withdraw from DO. If you still have no MD interviews in another couple months, then just be happy with the DO backup. The odds of jumping from a 0-MD-interview cycle to a successful second one are miniscule, whereas if you got some MD interviews but unfortunately no admits, you at least came close and a second cycle becomes a lot more reasonable to attempt.
 
No, I transferred after the basic science years (start of MS3). I am not trying to compare the two schools because such a comparison would not be reliable since basic sciences and clinical years are not compatible in nature. I just think that the OP should fully investigate all of his options if he gets to the end of the cycle without any MD acceptances. You do not know where the OP is from, what personally reasons he may have for prioritizing an allopathic medical education, or other factors in his portfolio. The notion that there is not a significant stigma against DOs in the match is naive and just plain wrong. A similar proportion of DOs end up in primary care when compared to FMGs. In addition, some highly competitive specialties are known to prefer MDs (of any kind) over DOs.

Yes, this is my main concern! I want to make sure I'm making the right decision, I do not want to make a quick decision based on my unease with the current application cycle and go DO just to get into school right away. I'm trying to consider how my decisions now will affect me later (time to match into residencies)- I do not want to be force-fed into the primary care route, especially since I do not believe I would want to pursue this. Even if I ended up being a slightly above average DO student, how competitive would I be to residency programs?
 
Thanks for the response! :) I appreciate hearing the optimistic side of this- I'm sorry you had that experience with DO. Any specific reason why you developed an aversion to it? I just added a 5th LOR to my app and plan on updating by Thanksgiving if I don't hear back. I guess it's a waiting game at this point! I also am trying my best to enjoy myself during my time off and not get consumed with all of this, however it's easier said than done haha.


This is what eventually drove me out of my former DO program
-huge class size
-questionable professors (most from other countries)
-disorganized administration
-dishonest student body (several students were expelled for cheating in my first year)
-outdated curriculum
-poor hospital connections for clinical rotations (one of the main reason I transferred)
-school is in the middle of nowhere
-extremely high tuition
-little to no student guidance/resources

You would probably encounter these same issues during the basic science years at a Caribbean program but at least you would have the MD degree in the end. You would probably match IM either way, but you really don't know what you want to do at this point (no offense). I have personally changed my specialty interests 12 times since I started medical school and you will too. It is inevitable.
 
In addition, some highly competitive specialties are known to prefer MDs (of any kind) over DOs.


Where did you hear that "of any kind" claim?

The program directories of highly competitive residencies prefer MDs from the US MD schools that have MSTPs. The PDs highly protect the reputations of their programs. They list the med schools of their residents and do not want people looking at those lists and think their program can't attract US MD students, particularly ones from the ones with more research dollars.
 
Even if I ended up being a slightly above average DO student, how competitive would I be to residency programs?
For IM, you're fine. For something like derm, ophtho, ortho, ENT etc it's a big hurdle.

Strongly, strongly advise against Caribbean though, for reasons you can find many threads about on SDN. The net attrition/failure rate at even the stronger Caribbean programs is something like 70% (meaning, only 30% that arrive 1st semester end up matched). All the complaints listed above about the DO program are also common about Carib programs, and most to a much greater degree - for example look up some of the class sizes.
 
Btw @Rhabdoviridae were you at one of the more established/better regarded DO programs, like Oklahoma state or Kansas City, or was this one of the new programs?
 
For IM, you're fine. For something like derm, ophtho, ortho, ENT etc it's a big hurdle.

Strongly, strongly advise against Caribbean though, for reasons you can find many threads about on SDN. The net attrition/failure rate at even the stronger Caribbean programs is something like 70% (meaning, only 30% that arrive 1st semester end up matched). All the complaints listed above about the DO program are also common about Carib programs, and most to a much greater degree - for example look up some of the class sizes.

Not true. This chart is from SGU (one of the stronger programs) and shows the number of students who matriculated each year. Compare that to the list of residency matches for each corresponding year (easily obtainable from website just add 4 to whatever starting year you are looking at) and you will see that roughly 70-80% who start end up matching.

Edit: As for the DO school I attended, it was a newer program. PM me and I will give you the exact program name if you'd like
 

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Not true. This chart is from SGU (one of the stronger programs) and shows the number of students who matriculated each year. Compare that to the list of residency matches for each corresponding year (easily obtainable from website just add 4 to whatever starting year you are looking at) and you will see that roughly 70-80% who start end up matching.

Edit: As for the DO school I attended, it was a newer program. PM me and I will give you the exact program name if you'd like
Maybe SGU is being honest and is just a huge exception...dunno. But other "Big 4" members are somewhere in the 40% success ballpark based on the bloomberg piece from a few years back. Iirc it's something like 52% graduating on time at Ross for example, and only 60% that make it to the match end up matched (including SOAP).

That makes more sense. I think OP would likely have luck with the much more established DO programs (which, according to US News survey data, are actually regarded better than some US MD schools)
 
Of 2000+ DOs who matched into MD residencies, 670 went unto IM
I recall you recommending 2 USMD cycles before anyone considered going offshore. Do you also think it makes sense to be on the second MD cycle before including DO?
 
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For IM, you're fine. For something like derm, ophtho, ortho, ENT etc it's a big hurdle.

Strongly, strongly advise against Caribbean though, for reasons you can find many threads about on SDN. The net attrition/failure rate at even the stronger Caribbean programs is something like 70% (meaning, only 30% that arrive 1st semester end up matched). All the complaints listed above about the DO program are also common about Carib programs, and most to a much greater degree - for example look up some of the class sizes.

I am not considering Caribbean programs at all
 
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Concerning ?? That's a huge number of IM matches!

Here, look at this:


You can see IM was the most common target for DOs participating in NRMP, and ~90% successfully matched.

Why is that concerning? 24% of DOs who matched MD programs did so in IM.

It was 19% for US MDs.

I misinterpreted, I read that as out of 2000+ DOs trying to match IM, 670 were successful.

Is anyone aware of the current DO match rate to allopathic residencies in general?
 
I misinterpreted, I read that as out of 2000+ DOs trying to match IM, 670 were successful.

Is anyone aware of the current DO match rate to allopathic residencies in general?

It fluctuates but is usually somewhere in the mid seventies for DO applicants. This is compared to roughly 95% of US allopathic seniors.
 
Keep in mind there's a lot of self selection of course. Like 90% matched successfully to diagnostic rads, but the cohort of applicants was likely a very above-average group that only made the effort because they thought they were competitive enough
 
It fluctuates but is usually somewhere in the mid seventies for DO applicants. This is compared to roughly 95% of US allopathic seniors.

It was over 80% in 2017. When you include the AOA match as well, it's over 99%.

The corresponding number for IMGs is about 54%.

Going Caribbean over DO is frankly stupid.
 
DO schools have their own disadvantages and structural problems. But if you want to get accepted into a US medical school, I think applying to DO is your safest bet. Right now, you're at a disadvantage for US MD schools as you have below average GPA and 3x MCAT (which schools may average). Seeing that (at least to me) admissions is driven by numbers, getting into US MD may be an uphill climb. It's possible but still risky and you may have to prepare having to reapply.
 
Going to be interesting to see how things hold up after the merger. Will the DO stigma fade as the training pathway becomes the same? Will it initially make it even harder for DOs to match anything competitive now that the pile of apps will always have MDs too? Both?
 
You have my standard recommendation a little wrong :

as I've said often, before considering any offshore school applicant must go through at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement. the break is necessary to analyze and understand the weaknesses in an application. Repair may be as simple as reorganizing rewriting application or it may require postbacc, SMP, MCAT, or additional extracurricular such as clinical volunteering and other items. I strongly advise that no student should consider off shore schools until the above has been done.
I take it you're in the DO >> IMG corner then.

What do you think about SGU's claim of ~90% making it from Day 1 to matching? Are they lying in their M1 class size or match reports, or are they just doing much much better than their DeVry peers?
 
Keep in mind there's a lot of self selection of course. Like 90% matched successfully to diagnostic rads, but the cohort of applicants was likely a very above-average group that only made the effort because they thought they were competitive enough

The added pressure to be an above-average DO student, to maintain very high test scores consistently, in order to be a good applicant to residency programs as a DO student, seems incredibly stressful. I want to avoid this- one of my main reasons against DO if I am able to avoid this route.

All in all I need to do a lot more research on DO programs before I consider applying to them, and potentially going into thousands of dollars of debt later on for.
 
DO schools have their own disadvantages and structural problems. But if you want to get accepted into a US medical school, I think applying to DO is your safest bet. Right now, you're at a disadvantage for US MD schools as you have below average GPA and 3x MCAT (which schools may average). Seeing that (at least to me) admissions is driven by numbers, getting into US MD may be an uphill climb. It's possible but still risky and you may have to prepare having to reapply.

Thank you for the response! I really appreciate the feedback. To focus on MD for now, what are some things I can do to improve my application going forward? Possibly pursue research? What are your thoughts on SMP/Post-Bacc programs?
 
You have my standard recommendation a little wrong :

as I've said often, before considering any offshore school applicant must go through at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement. the break is necessary to analyze and understand the weaknesses in an application. Repair may be as simple as reorganizing rewriting application or it may require postbacc, SMP, MCAT, or additional extracurricular such as clinical volunteering and other items. I strongly advise that no student should consider off shore schools until the above has been done.


What are some application repair steps I can take to improve myself as an MD candidate? What are your thoughts on postbacc/SMP. In my current position, would pursuing something like research, a component of my application that I currently lack, improve my application? Thanks in advance for the feedback :)
 
The added pressure to be an above-average DO student, to maintain very high test scores consistently, in order to be a good applicant to residency programs as a DO student, seems incredibly stressful. I want to avoid this- one of my main reasons against DO if I am able to avoid this route.

All in all I need to do a lot more research on DO programs before I consider applying to them, and potentially going into thousands of dollars of debt later on for.
I found this very disturbing and silly. The fact that you claim MD's dont have study to match into IM. Regardless of what school or what degree you get, you have to work hard to get what you want. After reading this thread, it sounds to me like OP wants an MD for prestige and nothing else...
 
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