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For a million a year, you'd think he could get a better haircut.
If healthcare WAS socialized, how much would doctors make? Lets say now they make around $300,000 for an orthopedic spine surgeon. After socializing medicine, would they only make like...$150,000? If so, thats still a good amount of money.
Also, if medicine was socialized, would doctors still pay malpractice insurance?
I just finished a GI fellowship and and will make over 300K this year.
Still I think medicine is a poor field to go into for the energetic and highly motivated. Despite my income, here are some of the negatives
1) losing out on your precious 20's
2) medicare cuts are coming in 2008 and will continue to do so
3) student loan debt of 100K plus interest
4) by the time you make $$ you have missed out on a lot of retirement funding--and now make too much for Roth IRA
5) by the time you finish you can no longer deduct student loan debt because your income to too high
6) You jump to high tax bracket and just multiply your income by 0.6 (60%) for your take home
7) Assuming a Democrat gets elected they will push even more for socialized medicine
8) The most highly prized specialties are SUPER competitive and you have to extra work to get them ie chief year, year of research, etc!!
9) For you alltruistic folks who are not doing it for the money....realize that PRIMARY CARE IS A TRIAGE NURSE AND DUMPING GROUND, YOU WILL WORK HARDER THAN ME AND MAKE 1/4 THE MONEY!!
The plan should be bank $$ while GI is good, then in 10 years when it goes to crap work part time or not at all and get into something else!!
I will discourage and kids from doing medicine!!
Unfortunately, as a dentist, you have to work with teeth. I really don't like teeth.how to make a million dollars a year as a doctor? become a dentist; that way, you'll make the million dollars a year way faster. Remember: MS just means "Misinformed Student"
Tack on the state income tax, FICA, and Medicare for good measure.Not sure what country you're in, but tax brackets in the US don't go up as high as 40%. If you're pulling ~$300k, you're in the 33% bracket. On Roth IRA and retirement funding, and student loan deduction during training - this has been discussed numerous times how to do this and who can do it and when. There is a seperate area on SDN that talks about this - look in the finance section.
Not sure what country you're in, but tax brackets in the US don't go up as high as 40%. If you're pulling ~$300k, you're in the 33% bracket. On Roth IRA and retirement funding, and student loan deduction during training - this has been discussed numerous times how to do this and who can do it and when. There is a seperate area on SDN that talks about this - look in the finance section.
The thing is, even though I do have sympathy for the older generation of doctors who saw their incomes (which are not, in most cases, salaries) collapse, it would be hard for me to be disappointed about my own future if "cut in half" meant having gone from $600k to $300k and staying there. What I fear is that more like $100k is going to become the norm--at which point it becomes not really worth it to go through med school and residency.
I just finished a GI fellowship and and will make over 300K this year.
gida said:I will discourage and kids from doing medicine!!
Can the U.S. have a Universal Healthcare system while increasing doctors' salaries?
I think so. At least I hope so. The U.S. spends at least 40% more than any other industrialized nation on healthcare (1). The cost of Health Care Administration in the U.S. is $1059 USD per capita compared to $307 USD per capita in Canada (2).
Where is all this excess money going? Private insurance companies are doing something with it. They spend way to much on administration costs and they make huge profits. Its an inefficient system that does not benefit patients. The purpose of a corporation is to make a profit for its shareholders, not make sure that the customers are taken care of.
You would think that it would be impossible to continually make huge profits while screwing your customers (unless of course you're a prostitute). But the insurance companies do it all the time with high premiums and poor coverage.
The government, on the other hand, can operate at a loss. Look at our war in Iraq. Look at the deficit.
I think Universal Healthcare would work in the United States if we funneled all that profit and wasted money into actually providing care to everyone and could keep physician salaries up -- which is important if we want to produce enough doctors to meet demand.
The roadblocks are, the lobbyists for these big corporations (of which there are about 3.8 lobbyists for each member of congress(3) ) and doctors' fears that salaries will plummet in a Universal Healthcare system.
Seriously, everyone is thinking this exact thought if you are in medical school. I don't want to hear those liberal whinings about the poor and all that crap. Everyone is concerned about their future bank account! So, we've worked hard for 4 years of school, and then (for surgery) like 6 to 7 years of residency and we want to make some money. If the system is socialized, the government will be in control of our wages as a whole. We cannot let that happen. What are some ideas to prevent that from happening as well as maximize our bank rolls?
Still haven't answered my question...lets say surgeons make like $300,000 now, using the current trends, about how much willl they make in 30 years or so? Can salaries, in 30 or so years, go from like $300,000 to like $150,000?
The roadblocks are, the lobbyists for these big corporations (of which there are about 3.8 lobbyists for each member of congress(3) ) and doctors' fears that salaries will plummet in a Universal Healthcare system.
Yes, many doctor's are very afraid of their salaries plummeting, and this is the driving force behind the AMAs hatred of single-payer medicine. As far as quality of medicine goes, we all know it would be better for the patient with single payer. I have my own pet story of hospitalization and insurance problems and I'm sure everyone knows a friend or relative that has had the same issues.
Yes, a single payer system is kinda scary. Only because that single payer will have control of all provider salaries.
However, single payer systems could lead to lower prices for medications. In New Zealand (with a universal healthcare system), a government agency called Pharmac is responsible for deciding what medications will be covered. As the governing body for the entire country, pharmaceuticals must negotiate with Pharmac over prices. And if the prices are unacceptable, Pharmac does not list that company's medication as an option for New Zealand's doctors. It's price control that benefits the patients.
The key for a Universal system with a single payer is to have a diverse group that will be in charge of setting compensation for each service. In theory, it sounds good. In practice, who knows.
But it would be in the interest of everyone, in a universal system, for physicians to make a good living. I think people are generally good, but you still have to provide financial benefits to make the long journey into medicine worth it.
At this point I've only briefly read about systems in Canada and New Zealand, but I've heard some good things about Germany's system. There is universal health care, but it isn't a single-payer system.
Yes, many doctor's are very afraid of their salaries plummeting, and this is the driving force behind the AMAs hatred of single-payer medicine. As far as quality of medicine goes, we all know it would be better for the patient with single payer. I have my own pet story of hospitalization and insurance problems and I'm sure everyone knows a friend or relative that has had the same issues.
like they say on the Taco Bell commercial we gotta think outside the bun. Having a multitude of insurance companies causes very expensive duplication of general and admin expenses. A properly structured single payer would leave a significantly higher portion of the healthcare dollar to go for direct patient care- and yes to fairly compensate doctors.
The way I see it someone like Michael Bloomberg or Warren Buffet can spearhead healthcare reform. Men like this have no financial or political agenda. If something is not done many of you will be practicing medicine for insulting compensation.
like they say on the Taco Bell commercial we gotta think outside the bun. Having a multitude of insurance companies causes very expensive duplication of general and admin expenses. A properly structured single payer would leave a significantly higher portion of the healthcare dollar to go for direct patient care- and yes to fairly compensate doctors.
The way I see it someone like Michael Bloomberg or Warren Buffet can spearhead healthcare reform. Men like this have no financial or political agenda. If something is not done many of you will be practicing medicine for insulting compensation.
Neither our government, nor an outside entity is going to rescue physicians from their economic woes. The key is to be independent and have enough money in the bank to float one's living expenses for 6 months so low paying insurance companies and Medicare/Medicaid can be dropped.
It is not easy for physicians to be fiscally responsible. Everybody tells us we're supposed to be rich and the constant delayed gratification makes it even worse. When most of us finish, we have mounds of debt and either have just started a family or are preparing to start one. Then, many doctors leverage themselves to the max with big houses, fancy cars, and other trinkets. Anybody who wants to see how not to handle their finances, check out this recent article from CNN Money.
What really needs to happen is physicians need to live modestly the first 2 or 3 years out of residency and save up some money and pay off debt. It is a very un-American idea, but it does work. During this time, physicians need to save up a legitimate 6 months of living expenses. At this point, if they are in private practice, they can start dropping low paying plans. It is hard to bargain from a position of weakness, which is the position in which most docs place themselves. I know way too many doctors who are 5-10 years out of training and have maxed out credit cards and no money in the bank.
Most dentists I know do exactly that. They work for somebody else for 2 or 3 years and save their money, then they start their own practice. They generally require payment at the time of service and regard insurance as the patient's insurance, not the doctor's insurance.
As far as care for the poor goes, hospitals can pay doctors an hourly or "by the case" rate for taking care of uninsured patients. It is already happening across the country. Let the hospitals collect whatever pittance Medicare throws them.
Fiscal responsibility is the key to solving our problems. Expecting anybody else to solve our problems will result in the same situation as welfare recipients waiting for the government to lift them out of poverty....it ain't gonna happen.
Neither our government, nor an outside entity is going to rescue physicians from their economic woes. The key is to be independent and have enough money in the bank to float one's living expenses for 6 months so low paying insurance companies and Medicare/Medicaid can be dropped.
It is not easy for physicians to be fiscally responsible. Everybody tells us we're supposed to be rich and the constant delayed gratification makes it even worse. When most of us finish, we have mounds of debt and either have just started a family or are preparing to start one. Then, many doctors leverage themselves to the max with big houses, fancy cars, and other trinkets. Anybody who wants to see how not to handle their finances, check out this recent article from CNN Money.
What really needs to happen is physicians need to live modestly the first 2 or 3 years out of residency and save up some money and pay off debt. It is a very un-American idea, but it does work. During this time, physicians need to save up a legitimate 6 months of living expenses. At this point, if they are in private practice, they can start dropping low paying plans. It is hard to bargain from a position of weakness, which is the position in which most docs place themselves. I know way too many doctors who are 5-10 years out of training and have maxed out credit cards and no money in the bank.
Most dentists I know do exactly that. They work for somebody else for 2 or 3 years and save their money, then they start their own practice. They generally require payment at the time of service and regard insurance as the patient's insurance, not the doctor's insurance.
As far as care for the poor goes, hospitals can pay doctors an hourly or "by the case" rate for taking care of uninsured patients. It is already happening across the country. Let the hospitals collect whatever pittance Medicare throws them.
Fiscal responsibility is the key to solving our problems. Expecting anybody else to solve our problems will result in the same situation as welfare recipients waiting for the government to lift them out of poverty....it ain't gonna happen.
Sufficient funds are earmarked from the government for medicaid and medicare. The insurance companies absorb the lion's share of these funds-leaving table scraps for doctors. Again my colleagues the true culprits here are the health insurance companies. I propose a single government payer-BUT NOT SOCIALIZED MEDICINE- we would not be government employees. A national health clearing facility would have only fiscal and administrative responsibility. The savings would be HUGE (again no duplication of general and administrative expense, no insurance company profits) and more funds would be available for doctors and patient care.
It doesn't matter. It's like hiring an independent contractor to do your billing, or having a billing dept in your office. The only real difference is that as your employee, you have to pay the secretaries' soc sec and unemployment taxes. Either way they end up getting the same check from you.
Biscuit799 said:If the government is writing the check, they have you by the short and curly's.
which brings me to my new career switch, 400 dollar a head barber, lol, i be making 3 times as much as ER docs for way less training, stress and effort, by the way thats not including tips!!! who tips u as a doc, lol except for the nurses, hehe...
By this logic there would be no difference in care going to a private hospital that accepts medicare or a VA. I think we can agree that this isn't the case.
True, although if the government were responsible for paying for every citizen, they'd have a helluva incentive to adequately fund the system. I still wouldn't want to be leveraged by a single entity, but it's not like the Gubmint could dismantle healthcare without the electorate taking notice.
Doctors that work at either hospital don't make significantly more or less than either other doctor.
And the one who writes the check, calls the shots.
Military physicians sure make less than their civillian counterparts. Yes, they will pay for medical school, but even after that obligation is completed pay is less, that's why nearly all jump ship after their obligation. Visit the military medicine forum to see how many are satisified with being government property.
(and yes, I do realize most VA physicians are not military, but the point is to compare current private income/satisfaction with government paid physicians).
Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you, but you have to admit that there is a significant difference between working in a government-owned, government-run facility versus a private one. The government writes a lot of checks to Boeing, for instance, and I bet they have a much nicer cafeteria than the Pentagon.
Sure you did.
Truer nonsensical words have rarely been written.
Um, yeah. I am 33 years old and finished my Gastroenterology fellowship at the end of June 2007.
And yes, the senior partners told me to multiply my income by .6 to determine what my take home will generally be.
And I prefer that my children don't become M.D.'s unless the system is better in 20 years.
And the bottom line is that MD/DO's---we need to get better organized to fight against decreasing reimbursement! Tell the Congressmen that we are cutting their salaries by 10% off the top and see if they complain.
Sure you did.
Truer nonsensical words have rarely been written.
]Not sure what country you're in, but tax brackets in the US don't go up as high as 40%. If you're pulling ~$300k, you're in the 33% bracket. On Roth IRA and retirement funding, and student loan deduction during training - this has been discussed numerous times how to do this and who can do it and when. There is a separate area on SDN that talks about this - look in the finance section.
Not sure what country you're in, but tax brackets in the US don't go up as high as 40%. If you're pulling ~$300k, you're in the 33% bracket. On Roth IRA and retirement funding, and student loan deduction during training - this has been discussed numerous times how to do this and who can do it and when. There is a seperate area on SDN that talks about this - look in the finance section.