How to make the absolute most money doing FM?

[SKaminski]

Hey everyone,

I'm in an FM residency and poised to graduate in FM. I'm not interested in beating around the bush. At this point in my medical career, i'm interested in making the most money I can, as quickly as possible. I don't much mind about what that entails. I'm fine with performing abortions, i'm fine with suboxone and methadone, although i'll need additional training to get suboxone and methadone certified. I'm fine with doing intra-articular injections, and my residency program offers me training in just about everything.

Location is not an issue, either. If it's spending 6 months in alaska going from eskimo village to eskimo village, i'm fine with doing that. No significant other, no kids.

So. How do I go about maximizing my profits?

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[InternistDO]

I've seen some pretty crazy EM jobs in upstate NY that seem to accept FM boarded docs.

Emergency Medicine Position in Upstate New York 432K Base Plus Bonus Job Opening in New York - AAFP CareerLink

 

[SKaminski]

I've seen some pretty crazy EM jobs in upstate NY that seem to accept FM boarded docs.

Emergency Medicine Position in Upstate New York 432K Base Plus Bonus Job Opening in New York - AAFP CareerLink

I like it. I really really like emergency medicine, so that's a wonderful option. Thank you!

 

[plica]

I graduated FM residency 2 yrs ago and am now a Nocturnist, I have a 7on, 7off schedule but pick up extra shifts per month. Typically work 18 shifts per month. Grossed 405K last year. If you like nights (as do I) it is a great gig. No rounding, no discharge summaries, no progress notes, no meetings or administrators. I admit about 6-8 per night, respond to codes and rapid responses. Get off at 7am. In bed by 9am. Up at 300pm. Gym at 400pm. Then dinner and off to work. Love it!

 

[SKaminski]

I graduated FM residency 2 yrs ago and am now a Nocturnist, I have a 7on, 7off schedule but pick up extra shifts per month. Typically work 18 shifts per month. Grossed 405K last year. If you like nights (as do I) it is a great gig. No rounding, no discharge summaries, no progress notes, no meetings or administrators. I admit about 6-8 per night, respond to codes and rapid responses. Get off at 7am. In bed by 9am. Up at 300pm. Gym at 400pm. Then dinner and off to work. Love it!

Not a bad option either! I like the idea of shift work, so when i'm off i'm completely off. Thanks for the input!

 

[deleted87716]

Look for the crappiest job that nobody wants in the crappiest part of the country that nobody lives in, and name your price.

Be prepared to drink heavily. On the bright side, you'll be able to afford the good stuff.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Look for the crappiest job that nobody wants in the crappiest part of the country that nobody lives in, and name your price.

Be prepared to drink heavily. On the bright side, you'll be able to afford the good stuff.

I hear pill mills pay bank for the 3-5 years before the Feds catch on

 

[deleted87716]

I hear pill mills pay bank for the 3-5 years before the Feds catch on

Yeah, but you'd go to a white collar prison. I hear they're cush. Plus, after your release, you could use the experience to launch a lucrative second career in correctional medicine (in another state, of course). Better yet, you could write a best-selling tell-all book on the pill mill industry and hit the talk show circuit. Cha-ching!

 

[mabinante]

I do Suboxone treatment...pretty good money. PM me...I have an opportunity for you.

 

[SKaminski]

I hear pill mills pay bank for the 3-5 years before the Feds catch on

Not looking to risk my career or do anything illegal. Looking to make money.

 

[Shufflin]

Hey everyone,

I'm in an FM residency and poised to graduate in FM. I'm not interested in beating around the bush. At this point in my medical career, i'm interested in making the most money I can, as quickly as possible. I don't much mind about what that entails. I'm fine with performing abortions, i'm fine with suboxone and methadone, although i'll need additional training to get suboxone and methadone certified. I'm fine with doing intra-articular injections, and my residency program offers me training in just about everything.

Location is not an issue, either. If it's spending 6 months in alaska going from eskimo village to eskimo village, i'm fine with doing that. No significant other, no kids.

So. How do I go about maximizing my profits?

Just curious. If you're so bent on making money, why did you choose FM? Or did FM choose you...

 

[QueenJames]

I think one of the most legal ways is do the private practice --> hire midlevels --> see bunch of patients.

Or...

Direct Primary Care... which may require more legwork on your part and can be done when you're established in your community.

Even if you get anywhere from 700-800 people under your care, charging a $70 flat fee which is around the average of what I've seen DPC docs charge around the states I am near.

That's 550K+ right there.

Minus the 20-30% overhead ---> sitting right around 300-400K.... which taxes than take anywhere from 30-40% of.

But if you have a baller accountant, I'm sure you can find unique ways to reduce your tax burden since the DPC can be a separate LLC or corp and you can just pay yourself a $100K salary... and write off the rest....

This is just be brainstorming as I have the same mood as OP for the most part.

Just trying to get to residency at this point and learn the most I can so that I can put it to use.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Yeah, but you'd go to a white collar prison. I hear they're cush. Plus, after your release, you could use the experience to launch a lucrative second career in correctional medicine (in another state, of course). Better yet, you could write a best-selling tell-all book on the pill mill industry and hit the talk show circuit. Cha-ching!

View attachment 238937

You forgot to mention an exquisite taste for receiving butt stuff.

 

[TableMD]

Suprised no one said Testosterone clinics!

All the glitz and glamor of helping guys fix their T!!!!

Also likely an opportunity for some snake oil salesman cash with lyme disease, vitamin infusions, homeopathic concoctions and facility run yoga classes for chronic lyme disease muscular fatigue syndrome. If Blue dog signs up, ill throw in a pair of fancy yoga pants for only $200....

 

[deleted87716]

Suprised no one said Testosterone clinics!

All the glitz and glamor of helping guys fix their T!!!!

Also likely an opportunity for some snake oil salesman cash with lyme disease, vitamin infusions, homeopathic concoctions and facility run yoga classes for chronic lyme disease muscular fatigue syndrome. If Blue dog signs up, ill throw in a pair of fancy yoga pants for only $200....

 

[Shinken]

Yeah, but you'd go to a white collar prison. I hear they're cush.

"Minimum-security prison is no picnic. I have a client in there right now. He says the trick is, kick someone’s ass the first day, or become someone’s bitch. Then everything will be all right" (Office Space)

 

[FrustratedFamDoc]

"What would you say, ya do here?"

<------- Reformed corporate IT guy.

 

[d2305]

 

[IntheClouds4ever]

Clinic 3-4 days/week, nursing home medical director seeing patients half to full day and then local jail medicine half to full day.

 

[BigSib]

A lot of rural contracts pay well. I work Mon-Thu 9-5 and make about 310k, but also pick up hospitalist, nursery, ED shifts here and there.

Sent from my Pixel XL using SDN mobile

 

[KeikoTanaka]

A lot of rural contracts pay well. I work Mon-Thu 9-5 and make about 310k, but also pick up hospitalist, nursery, ED shifts here and there.

Sent from my Pixel XL using SDN mobile

How rural? where do you live? Could this be possible living in southern new Hampshire/maine?

Also what would be the difference in salary of rural IM vs rural FM?

 

[Sardonix]

A lot of rural contracts pay well. I work Mon-Thu 9-5 and make about 310k, but also pick up hospitalist, nursery, ED shifts here and there.

Sent from my Pixel XL using SDN mobile

That sounds like the dream life, right there.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

How rural? where do you live? Could this be possible living in southern new Hampshire/maine?

Also what would be the difference in salary of rural IM vs rural FM?

1.5 - 2 hrs away from a top 5 major metropolitan city at least for my preceptor

I'm pretty sure that he's easily clearing over 300K with a potential for clearing over 400K

4 days a week gig with opportunities to pick up hospitalist shifts 4-5 days a month

The # and variety of procedures that he's doing outside of typical primary care medicine are making me consider practicing rural medicine in my specialty of choice

There're so much more stuff that you can do in term of procedures. You work less days and get paid much more. More time off and vacation days for health maintenance.

 

[Hamhock]

I like it. I really really like emergency medicine, so that's a wonderful option. Thank you!

You may "really like emergency medicine", but you are not trained to do it.

If you pursue something like the above position, remember:

1. NYS taxes
2. the liability/malpractice (and even the mental stress) of managing a group of patients you are not trained to manage [let's not debate FM vs EM in a true ED -- that discussion can be read in multiple threads in the EM forum]
3. this job is unfilled by an EM doc for a reason

Don't mean to deflate your excitement, but it's important for at least med students to consider reality before going a a "quick" FM residency so that they can make >$400K practicing "emergency medicine".

HH

 

[QueenJames]

Clinic 3-4 days/week, nursing home medical director seeing patients half to full day and then local jail medicine half to full day.

GOALS AF.

I was told by an attending of mine who is a close mentor that is going to be a FM teaching doc at a nearby residency ....

"It's easy to make the first $250K in FM. Any FM doc can make that. The next 100K-200K is all about how creative you can get with your medical license."

 

[QueenJames]

You may "really like emergency medicine", but you are not trained to do it.

If you pursue something like the above position, remember:

1. NYS taxes
2. the liability/malpractice (and even the mental stress) of managing a group of patients you are not trained to manage [let's not debate FM vs EM in a true ED -- that discussion can be read in multiple threads in the EM forum]
3. this job is unfilled by an EM doc for a reason

Don't mean to deflate your excitement, but it's important for at least med students to consider reality before going a a "quick" FM residency so that they can make >$400K practicing "emergency medicine".

HH

What's ur take on the EM "fellowships" that are offered post-FM residency training?

 

[KeikoTanaka]

I've been debating a lot lately between FM and IM, I can't really decide what I am more interested in. People have been saying FM and IM have same RVUs and incomes etc starting out, but, in terms of options available to both (Assuming you don't subspecialize as IM) - which has the potential to make more money? I'm interested in doing sports medicine as a fellowship with either or.

I also plan on living in a more suburban area, so I imagine specialists (Peds and OBGYN) are readily available where I want to practice. So could IM offer more in this instance since in a more congested area you lose the privilege of practicing in most hospitals as FM in either the ED or as a hospitalist?

Obviously I think in a rural setting FM has more options for more money but... does that translate to suburban ?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I've been debating a lot lately between FM and IM, I can't really decide what I am more interested in. People have been saying FM and IM have same RVUs and incomes etc starting out, but, in terms of options available to both (Assuming you don't subspecialize as IM) - which has the potential to make more money? I'm interested in doing sports medicine as a fellowship with either or.

I also plan on living in a more suburban area, so I imagine specialists (Peds and OBGYN) are readily available where I want to practice. So could IM offer more in this instance since in a more congested area you lose the privilege of practicing in most hospitals as FM in either the ED or as a hospitalist?

Obviously I think in a rural setting FM has more options for more money but... does that translate to suburban ?

Outpatient FM and outpatient IM are essentially identical in terms of money. Outpatient IM is more rare but because of that less in demand as time goes on.

Both can do sports med, though I think its better to get there from FM as our ortho training is better and that way you're not limited to adult sports med.

If you want to do traditional (inpatient and outpatient), God help you.

 

[Hamhock]

What's ur take on the EM "fellowships" that are offered post-FM residency training?

That's a general, open-ended question.
There are a few threads about this already in the EM sub-forum.
I can try to answer more specific questions if you want to pose them.
HH

 

[Lexdiamondz]

You may "really like emergency medicine", but you are not trained to do it.

If you pursue something like the above position, remember:

1. NYS taxes
2. the liability/malpractice (and even the mental stress) of managing a group of patients you are not trained to manage [let's not debate FM vs EM in a true ED -- that discussion can be read in multiple threads in the EM forum]
3. this job is unfilled by an EM doc for a reason

Don't mean to deflate your excitement, but it's important for at least med students to consider reality before going a a "quick" FM residency so that they can make >$400K practicing "emergency medicine".

HH

This.


People who chose to practise a specialty they arent trained to practice need to realise that, should anything go south and they end up in court, they will be held to the same standard as someone who is BE/BC in that field. If one isn't comfortable possibly managing a difficult airway, a level 1 trauma or a medically unstable patient with relatively limited resources then they shouldn't be taking a job in EM in a hospital with limited backup (and no, a hospitalist there 24/7 isn't backup when you can't pass the tube).

 

[KeikoTanaka]

This.


People who chose to practise a specialty they arent trained to practice need to realise that, should anything go south and they end up in court, they will be held to the same standard as someone who is BE/BC in that field. If one isn't comfortable possibly managing a difficult airway, a level 1 trauma or a medically unstable patient with relatively limited resources then they shouldn't be taking a job in EM in a hospital with limited backup (and no, a hospitalist there 24/7 isn't backup when you can't pass the tube).

Why is there such an emphasis on EM training in FM residencies if its not going to ready you (at least somewhat) for working in an ED at least under the supervision of a BC/BE EM Physician? Couldn't you at least be like a super-PA in the ED? Is this ED training for FM solely just procedural then, learning how to do sutures and I&Ds etc?

This brings me to my second question - what skills does an FM learn to do OP, and is this all learned in the ED and in OP clinics?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Why is there such an emphasis on EM training in FM residencies if its not going to ready you (at least somewhat) for working in an ED at least under the supervision of a BC/BE EM Physician? Couldn't you at least be like a super-PA in the ED? Is this ED training for FM solely just procedural then, learning how to do sutures and I&Ds etc?

This brings me to my second question - what skills does an FM learn to do OP, and is this all learned in the ED and in OP clinics?

Fm training these days has essentially 2 end goals. First, to make the standard outpatient FP. Second and much less common, prepare you to do it all in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Why is there such an emphasis on EM training in FM residencies if its not going to ready you (at least somewhat) for working in an ED at least under the supervision of a BC/BE EM Physician? Couldn't you at least be like a super-PA in the ED? Is this ED training for FM solely just procedural then, learning how to do sutures and I&Ds etc?

This brings me to my second question - what skills does an FM learn to do OP, and is this all learned in the ED and in OP clinics?

The point of hiring an attending physician isn't so that they can work under the supervision of another attending - if that's the case you might as well hire a midlevel who will work for half the salary.

To answer your second question - there isn't an "emphasis" on EM training in FM residencies. While it's true that most FM residencies have at least 8-10 weeks of dedicated ER time, many would argue that that isn't enough to be competent EM physician in anything busier than a low-medium volume institution.

 

[septoplasty]

Why is there such an emphasis on EM training in FM residencies if its not going to ready you (at least somewhat) for working in an ED at least under the supervision of a BC/BE EM Physician?

As other posters said + alot of inpatient procedures have "higher" volume in the ED. I.e. Lines, Intubations, Codes, Fracture management etc.

This is why the "rotation" is emphasized.

 

[Vandalia]

EM here, so I am biased. But I am newly retired so I no longer have a stake in the game.

When it comes to hiring, EDs basically are in two categories and only two categories. One camp is places that will only take board certified/eligible EM physicians. The other camp are places that will take anyone with a medical license. (Or more specifically with a non-medical license.) There is little in between. So when it comes to hiring, doing an EM fellowship will make little difference. When it comes to doing the job, it is better than nothing, but is nowhere near the equivalent to a residency.

Part of the problem is that things actually work out backwards. I think primary care physicians in the ED is a good option at large/academic places since a lot of what is seen is basically primary care. (EM heresy) On the other hand, at a small, rural hospital you really need that EM training, because you are it. There is often literally not another physician within 50 miles. That is where you need training/experience. When something critical comes in, you have very little time to differentiate sick and not-sick, and call in what resources are available. Which is usually none. As additional evidence of that, our group was responsible for several small critical access hospitals. We never put the new guys at those sites, because that is where experience is really needed. (Us old guys liked it because it was much less busy and we were not as concerned with production.)

Now, if you are working at an ED as a non-EM physician where do you think you will be working? The 500 bed hospital with all the consultants and all the imaging, or the 30 bed place where you are it and the only imaging available at night is plain film with a tech who is also an MA and is likely working as an MA because of her (lack of) skills as a tech.

The issue is not really technical skills and things like procedures. Those can be easily learned. This sounds ephemeral and fluffy, but the critical difference is mindset. After 3+ years of having it pounded into your head to think about what is the most likely diagnosis, and what is the most efficient way to treat this patient, it is very difficult to have the EM mindset of "what will kill this patient in the next 30 minutes." It sounds like this would be easy, but trust me, I have seen it enough that it is difficult to change that thought-pattern. As the surgeons say, you can teach a decent chef to cut, it is knowing when and what to cut that is hard.

Sure FM residency programs have EM training. Our unopposed FM program also had a urology rotation, that doesn't mean you will be resecting a RCC once you have graduated.

 

[LeroyJenkinsMD]

I get it. EM is a specialty. The procedures, knowledge, and experience can only be gained in the vacuum that is an EM residency. However, and no explanation needed here... just wanted to remind everyone of the obvious differences in the various amounts of overlap amongst EM, FM, and urology.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

Clinic 3-4 days/week, nursing home medical director seeing patients half to full day and then local jail medicine half to full day.

How much does prison medicine pay and how is it structured?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

How much does prison medicine pay and how is it structured?

I would be very wary of prison medicine. A classmate of mine did that for a year. Racked up 20-something board complaints. All BS but still have to be investigated and responded to.

 

[QueenJames]

There are a few hospice/palliative care facilities opening up in the area. Does anybody work at one as the physician on site? Those seems like solid options to get in on before opening your own.

 

[deleted87716]

I would be very wary of prison medicine. A classmate of mine did that for a year. Racked up 20-something board complaints. All BS but still have to be investigated and responded to.

It's usually something people do either near the end of their careers, or because they can't get a job doing anything else.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

There are a few hospice/palliative care facilities opening up in the area. Does anybody work at one as the physician on site? Those seems like solid options to get in on before opening your own.

A classmate of mine does.

I would be very careful opening your own hospice company. Eventually CMS is going to cotton on to the fact that they're paying way too much for Hospice care and cut those rates.

 

[Vandalia]

A few things:

1) On prison medicine: It is absolutely true that prisoners love to file lawsuits and board complaints. The vast majority (>99.9%) are dismissed, but it is still a long process to go through, and with credentialing wanting to know everything about everything, it can become a huge hassle. Also, this may be very unfair, but prison physicians have a pretty horrible reputation. You will definitely be looked down upon if you spent any amount of (full) time working in correctional medicine. The one exception is the Public Health Service, which is a completely different animal. If for some reason you fell a need to work in this field, I would strongly recommend the PHS route and working at one of the federal medical centers for prisoners. When I did hiring/credentialing I would give physicians one "mulligan." If the c.v. was perfectly clean, then working in correctional medicine would not be a deal-breaker; but as intimated before, I have yet to come across an application that met that standard.

(Also, "healthcare systems" often contract with county jails and state prisons. One of my close friends saw maybe a jail patient a month in his rural practice in this way. Again, having inmates as patients is different from a full-time job in corrections.)

2) Arbitrage does not work in medicine. At least not for physicians. "Arbitrage" is a fancy, Wall Street term that basically means "make a lot of money with little effort." If you complete a neurosurgery residency you will make a lot of money, and I would bet that will not change, but that also does not meet the "little effort" requirement. There is always some area in medicine that benefits from some loophole in the CPTs, or medicare DME reimbursements, or the like. For a short period of time. However, that will never last because the other specialties are always prowling around looking to get that money for themselves. That is one reason why the veterans on this site are loathe to discuss salary. A marketing expert may be able to follow the hot trends from Wall Street to Silicon Valley, to renewable energy to whatever. But it is next to impossible for a physician to switch specialties that quickly.

A someone who has been around the block a couple of times, I would be worried about being a physician in hospice medicine. This seems to be an area that is ripe for mid-levels. Our ( a doctors) best friend is high malpractice risk. What damages would be awarded from killing a cancer patient with a morphine overdose 3 weeks early? You get them "addicted" two weeks before they die? The combination of a near-certain CMS crackdown, mid-level takeover, and trend to corporate takeover (linked to previous) would have me worried. But I certainly don't claim to be an expert in this area.

 

[QueenJames]

A few things:

1) On prison medicine: It is absolutely true that prisoners love to file lawsuits and board complaints. The vast majority (>99.9%) are dismissed, but it is still a long process to go through, and with credentialing wanting to know everything about everything, it can become a huge hassle. Also, this may be very unfair, but prison physicians have a pretty horrible reputation. You will definitely be looked down upon if you spent any amount of (full) time working in correctional medicine. The one exception is the Public Health Service, which is a completely different animal. If for some reason you fell a need to work in this field, I would strongly recommend the PHS route and working at one of the federal medical centers for prisoners. When I did hiring/credentialing I would give physicians one "mulligan." If the c.v. was perfectly clean, then working in correctional medicine would not be a deal-breaker; but as intimated before, I have yet to come across an application that met that standard.

(Also, "healthcare systems" often contract with county jails and state prisons. One of my close friends saw maybe a jail patient a month in his rural practice in this way. Again, having inmates as patients is different from a full-time job in corrections.)

2) Arbitrage does not work in medicine. At least not for physicians. "Arbitrage" is a fancy, Wall Street term that basically means "make a lot of money with little effort." If you complete a neurosurgery residency you will make a lot of money, and I would bet that will not change, but that also does not meet the "little effort" requirement. There is always some area in medicine that benefits from some loophole in the CPTs, or medicare DME reimbursements, or the like. For a short period of time. However, that will never last because the other specialties are always prowling around looking to get that money for themselves. That is one reason why the veterans on this site are loathe to discuss salary. A marketing expert may be able to follow the hot trends from Wall Street to Silicon Valley, to renewable energy to whatever. But it is next to impossible for a physician to switch specialties that quickly.

A someone who has been around the block a couple of times, I would be worried about being a physician in hospice medicine. This seems to be an area that is ripe for mid-levels. Our ( a doctors) best friend is high malpractice risk. What damages would be awarded from killing a cancer patient with a morphine overdose 3 weeks early? You get them "addicted" two weeks before they die? The combination of a near-certain CMS crackdown, mid-level takeover, and trend to corporate takeover (linked to previous) would have me worried. But I certainly don't claim to be an expert in this area.

So I guess that leaves us with A) see more patients per day (preceptor is seeing more than 30 patients a day currently and states that he clears more than 280K...), B) Urgent care, or C) nursing homes...?

Maybe DPC will be another avenue for the business savvy to explore?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

So I guess that leaves us with A) see more patients per day (preceptor is seeing more than 30 patients a day currently and states that he clears more than 280K...), B) Urgent care, or C) nursing homes...?

Maybe DPC will be another avenue for the business savvy to explore?

If he's seeing more than 30 patients per day, he should be making more than that.

Urgent care moonlighting is usually hourly, and most docs I know make more per hour in their regular practice than doing urgent care.

The only way in DPC to make significantly more than regular practice is to employ other docs in a practice you own. That's pretty rare these days. Plus you can accomplish the same in a regular practice you own.

 

[QueenJames]

If he's seeing more than 30 patients per day, he should be making more than that.

Urgent care moonlighting is usually hourly, and most docs I know make more per hour in their regular practice than doing urgent care.

The only way in DPC to make significantly more than regular practice is to employ other docs in a practice you own. That's pretty rare these days. Plus you can accomplish the same in a regular practice you own.

So pretty much the answer is to go private practice if possible (meaning if you have the funds).

 

[Vandalia]

So pretty much the answer is to go private practice if possible (meaning if you have the funds).

It depends.

As an example, for my (former) healthcare system, a religiously-oriented non-profit, rural primary care physicians were subsidized so that their salaries were the same as those in the urban area. So in those relatively small towns, they probably earned more than the pure-private guys down the road. There is also the issue of negotiating insurance contracts; if you are completely on your own you are going to get screwed.

I know some places have a hybrd-model where physicians are able to run their own practices, but benefit from group negotiating power.

The one hard and fast rule to remember is that there are no hard and fast rules.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

So pretty much the answer is to go private practice if possible (meaning if you have the funds).

Not always.

If I see 30 patients per day at the average wRVU per patient with my current job taking 6 weeks off per year I'd be making 394k/year.

 

[QueenJames]

Not always.

If I see 30 patients per day at the average wRVU per patient with my current job taking 6 weeks off per year I'd be making 394k/year.

ahhh.

FRICKING GOALS DOC!

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Sometimes i wonder why I didn't choose FM. Short residency, flexibility, no nights/weekends, variety, high demand, and decent pay.

 

[QueenJames]

Sometimes i wonder why I didn't choose FM. Short residency, flexibility, no nights/weekends, variety, high demand, and decent pay.

Because you're gonna be a goddamn brilliant neurologist and have a huge potential for killing the financial game and make money I could only dream of as a FM doc with the same if not less amount of time. (No offense to anybody)