"How to ruin Sex Research" article by JM Bailey

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This is what TexasPhysician just sent to me (my Lord): "Commenting that you can't respond due to being a heterosexual male in the psychiatry forum can only incite an argument. As the first post in this thread, it didn't even make sense beyond derailing or trolling."

Good luck, folks, raising your kids in a state where they can't even think or speak their minds. Good luck.

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Okay. I will do my best. A person (Texas Physician) basically told me I was in violation of some principles.
 
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This is unreal if our profession is hoping to try to appear objective and credible to the public (and to ourselves).
 
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TexasPhysician apparently said that my posts were 'derailing' or 'off-topic'...not sure if it was merely a personal PM to me (which is cool, he/she is within his/her rights to express an opinion to me) or if they were threatening to limit my ability to participate in this forum (which would be.......bad).
 
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Yes, this has also been my experience (albeit very limited). I have only worked with one client diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria but they had a different presentation than the adolescents I work with now. The former's gender dysphoric feelings emerged in early childhood and were also more persistent/consistent.

I think we are all trying to understand this development and find the best way to help those who are experiencing it.
 
I think we are all trying to understand this development and find the best way to help those who are experiencing it.

Yes, I thought that’s what we were all discussing in the recent part of the thread.
 
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I think we are all on-point with discussion of a very difficult topic. I also think we can orient ourselves to the goal of trying to be maximally helpful to our clients who may have this stuff going on in their lives :)
 
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I just graduated from a dual degree program in Women's Studies (BA) and Psychology (BSc) and conducted a sex research study about internalized homonegativity and HIV-risk-taking behavior in gay men so I felt extremely vinidcated reading this article.
I agree to many things that the author said. It is extremely tough conducting research that deals with minority populations without appearing to offend them. In one of the feesbacks I got from doing my research, a participant had referred to me as Mike Pence. Some others said that I am exploiting the LGBT community.
I am scared that political ideologies might suffocate not only sex research but also every other area of the academia.
However, I think it is important to realize that as researchers we do not live in a cultural and political vacuum. Your results can be used by various parties to advocate for or against the same population that you were studying. Even worse - as researchers I do not think that we all share the same objective outlook on what science should be like. Mind you - for a long period of time psychologists thought that homosexuality was a mental illness and various programs were implemented to try to cure it. It is easy to understand why some minority groups are extremely hostile towards psychological research aimed at them even in the 21st century. But does that mean that researchers should be less objective or avoid doing certain kinds of research? I do not think so.
[I also have a lot of thoughts about Women's Studies as a major (some good some bad) but I am not sure if it is relevant to this thread.]
 
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For what it's worth, Mike Bailey has done lots of controversial (but interesting) sex research, and I often offer his work as an example of why tenure was created - to be able to study things that people find confusing, complicated, or "unsavory" (as in his work with pedophiles). However, he is also often in the position of making claims that can clearly be read as inflammatory, phrased/framed in ways that *are* inflammatory, and then acting offended when people get upset, as though a criticism of him is a criticism of science writ-large. I saw this play out most recently on a listserv debacle related to the Kavanaugh hearings and Christine Blasey Ford's testimony, in which he referred to the statistic that 1 in 4 women experiences sexual assault as a "trope". I think there's ways to present findings that go against current cultural norms, views, etc. without being dismissive of people who disagree. Just my 2c.
 
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I think we are all on-point with discussion of a very difficult topic. I also think we can orient ourselves to the goal of trying to be maximally helpful to our clients who may have this stuff going on in their lives :)

I wouldn’t be too concerned. They’re all stirred up over there. I asked a question and they immediately went on the attack. I mean, it is me, but even for them it was unusual.
 
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For what it's worth, Mike Bailey has done lots of controversial (but interesting) sex research, and I often offer his work as an example of why tenure was created - to be able to study things that people find confusing, complicated, or "unsavory" (as in his work with pedophiles). However, he is also often in the position of making claims that can clearly be read as inflammatory, phrased/framed in ways that *are* inflammatory, and then acting offended when people get upset, as though a criticism of him is a criticism of science writ-large. I saw this play out most recently on a listserv debacle related to the Kavanaugh hearings and Christine Blasey Ford's testimony, in which he referred to the statistic that 1 in 4 women experiences sexual assault as a "trope". I think there's ways to present findings that go against current cultural norms, views, etc. without being dismissive of people who disagree. Just my 2c.
We are on the same listserv and I agree with your perspective. The admins of that listserv responded similarly to SSSS. In these situations, it seems that it takes 2 to tango. Both Bailey and Milrod could have made their concerns in a more respectful manner and each organization could have made responses that took both perspectives.

Interestingly, both that listserv discussion and this thread have taught me a lot. For example, I never had a reason to examine the validity of the prevalence of sexual assault. Now, I can speak about the data with much more clarity. Similarly, I haven't given much thought to theories of transgender.

Small note (not sure if this was mentioned earlier), Milrod is not a doctoral psychologist but an LMFT with a psychology masters and a PhD in Human Sexuality.
 
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But it’s also completely true that much of psych is being pushed out of real striving for scientific approaches.
I hope this is purposeful hyperbole. My perception is that the vast majority of psychology research is far removed from politics and social movements. Or at least not political correctness that devalues scientific knowledge.
 
I just graduated from a dual degree program in Women's Studies (BA) and Psychology (BSc) and conducted a sex research study about internalized homonegativity and HIV-risk-taking behavior in gay men so I felt extremely vinidcated reading this article.
I agree to many things that the author said. It is extremely tough conducting research that deals with minority populations without appearing to offend them. In one of the feesbacks I got from doing my research, a participant had referred to me as Mike Pence. Some others said that I am exploiting the LGBT community.
I am scared that political ideologies might suffocate not only sex research but also every other area of the academia.
However, I think it is important to realize that as researchers we do not live in a cultural and political vacuum. Your results can be used by various parties to advocate for or against the same population that you were studying. Even worse - as researchers I do not think that we all share the same objective outlook on what science should be like. Mind you - for a long period of time psychologists thought that homosexuality was a mental illness and various programs were implemented to try to cure it. It is easy to understand why some minority groups are extremely hostile towards psychological research aimed at them even in the 21st century. But does that mean that researchers should be less objective or avoid doing certain kinds of research? I do not think so.
[I also have a lot of thoughts about Women's Studies as a major (some good some bad) but I am not sure if it is relevant to this thread.]

That reminds me of the play The Normal Heart, where Larry Kramer's character--based on him in real life--is attacked for suggesting that the sexual behavior of gay men may have been contributing to the spread of HIV.

I saw this play out most recently on a listserv debacle related to the Kavanaugh hearings and Christine Blasey Ford's testimony, in which he referred to the statistic that 1 in 4 women experiences sexual assault as a "trope".

Oh God... I may not know a lot about gender research, but I do know a lot about sexual assault research, and dismissing the 1 in 4 stat is a completely false statement. I would expect a fellow researcher to know better.
 
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An argument that I see occasionally here and in the field more broadly is that we should be trying to separate politics from our research and try to "be objective." I appreciate where I see that argument as coming from, because I think there are ways to try to be "more objective," and that at the core of these sentiments is a desire to seek the truth. However, I think it's counterproductive to think that it is possible for us to fully remove our political ideologies or subjectivities from our work, and obscures the fact that we are humans that are therefore inherently riddled with biases. We can't remove politics from our research. What we decide to research and how we research it is already inherently a political question. What kinds of research is allowed/encouraged, who/what gets funded, who pursues and gets accepted into academia - these are all at least partly political questions.

To bring some clarity to my argument, I define ideologies as "systems of socially shared ideas, beliefs, and values used to understand, justify, or challenge a particular political, economic, or social order." This is a broad definition that can be hard to apply, but I think it's a worthwhile one that is important to tease apart. Not everything is inherently a political question; but conversely, elements of political ideology tend to influence just about everything we do and think about. For example, we all need to eat and generally maintain some degree of domestic order - what and how we do that is a deeply political question. The food we have access to is shaped by a complex web of regional and economic factors. But even getting to the very basic individual acts of cooking or cleaning, it can get muddy. Cooking and cleaning the dishes is in itself not necessarily an inherently political act; however, when that task gets relegated to specific groups of people - then we are back in the realm of politics. When certain groups of people (historically, women of the household or domestic workers primarily made up of immigrants, women of color, women of lower SES, etc.) are impacted by those tasks or questions at different rates, we are looking at at least a partially political issue.

Every realm of mental health research is impacted and shaped by our political world, and how we're approaching those problems is shaped by our political ideologies. I don't see this as a bad thing - I see it as an inescapable fact that we need to incorporate into our thinking. I think it is possible and good to strive toward more validity and to figure out how to better account for how our perspectives influence our research, but I think that necessitates acknowledging our political ideologies and perspectives, rather than trying to divorce them entirely from our work.

I have a lot of thoughts and reactions to a lot of what has been said in this thread, and I am trying to sit with and sort through what I think might be of actual value to the discussion. But it seemed to me like this is a basic assumption that some of the rest of the discussion hinges on.
 
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There is research about the impact of a clinican's race on treatment and testing outcomes. It would be interesting to add the variable of political party, considering identity politics is more prevlant in our current cultural climate.
An argument that I see occasionally here and in the field more broadly is that we should be trying to separate politics from our research and try to "be objective." I appreciate where I see that argument as coming from, because I think there are ways to try to be "more objective," and that at the core of these sentiments is a desire to seek the truth. However, I think it's counterproductive to think that it is possible for us to fully remove our political ideologies or subjectivities from our work, and obscures the fact that we are humans that are therefore inherently riddled with biases. We can't remove politics from our research. What we decide to research and how we research it is already inherently a political question. What kinds of research is allowed/encouraged, who/what gets funded, who pursues and gets accepted into academia - these are all at least partly political questions.

To bring some clarity to my argument, I define ideologies as "systems of socially shared ideas, beliefs, and values used to understand, justify, or challenge a particular political, economic, or social order." This is a broad definition that can be hard to apply, but I think it's a worthwhile one that is important to tease apart. Not everything is inherently a political question; but conversely, elements of political ideology tend to influence just about everything we do and think about. For example, we all need to eat and generally maintain some degree of domestic order - what and how we do that is a deeply political question. The food we have access to is shaped by a complex web of regional and economic factors. But even getting to the very basic individual acts of cooking or cleaning, it can get muddy. Cooking and cleaning the dishes is in itself not necessarily an inherently political act; however, when that task gets relegated to specific groups of people - then we are back in the realm of politics. When certain groups of people (historically, women of the household or domestic workers primarily made up of immigrants, women of color, women of lower SES, etc.) are impacted by those tasks or questions at different rates, we are looking at at least a partially political issue.

Every realm of mental health research is impacted and shaped by our political world, and how we're approaching those problems is shaped by our political ideologies. I don't see this as a bad thing - I see it as an inescapable fact that we need to incorporate into our thinking. I think it is possible and good to strive toward more validity and to figure out how to better account for how our perspectives influence our research, but I think that necessitates acknowledging our political ideologies and perspectives, rather than trying to divorce them entirely from our work.
 
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The evidence is hardly in for 'what works' in terms of helping our clients who present with gender dysphoria. Moreover, I don't even discern a coherent theoretical model of 'what's wrong' or 'what is the pathology' here.
As has been pointed to in previous posts, actually there is a lot of research behind what is helpful and largely it boils down to social acceptance.

In my clinical experience, those who present with 'gender dysphoria' are typically narcissistic and demanding that the world bend and cater to their opinions, needs, and demands. Now, I'll get 'flamed' (poetically) for saying it, but it's the truth. Typically, their difficulties have little or nothing to do with the gender issue itself, but their narcissism. Delete/scald/obliterate this post, but it won't cancel out the truth.

Pull literature all you want. Adopting an 'I am a victim and the world is against me so why try' mentality is inherently dysfunctional.
Your experience of working with this population is wildly different from mine, and I fundamentally disagree with your conclusions about them. But beyond that, I wonder about how your conceptualization influences your interactions with them. If you're thinking about them as "personality disordered," this seems like a problem right off the bat - we have plenty research looking at the negative impacts of stigmatizing and pathologizing clients. This is especially important given that we know how important social acceptance is in outcomes! This is not to say that you can't ask or explore relationships among gender dysphoria with other kinds of psychopathology, or explore how trans people are impacted by psychopathology at different rates, but you're making fundamental assertions about a hugely diverse group of people and claiming it's just "the truth."

I'll tell them all about my cis-gender, white-male, patriarchal, colonizing guilt and see if that reduces their symptoms and improves their relationships and interpersonal functioning. Where are the studies in support of this approach? Is this a religion?
This is a very jarring post to read. It seems very out of place as I don't think anyone was advocating for this at all. Instead, it reads as though you are defensive about being a cisgender white male, and I wonder how that's impacting your interactions with anyone who isn't.

This is what TexasPhysician just sent to me (my Lord): "Commenting that you can't respond due to being a heterosexual male in the psychiatry forum can only incite an argument. As the first post in this thread, it didn't even make sense beyond derailing or trolling."

Good luck, folks, raising your kids in a state where they can't even think or speak their minds. Good luck.
I don't disagree with this person's concern, though I do disagree with their interpretation of your motives. I don't get the impression that you're trying to derail or troll, but it does seem like there is some underlying resentment or defensiveness that is influencing your interactions and conceptualizations.

I think we are all on-point with discussion of a very difficult topic. I also think we can orient ourselves to the goal of trying to be maximally helpful to our clients who may have this stuff going on in their lives :)
I agree that it seems like you're engaging in this discussion in good faith, despite holding attitudes that I think are very possibly harming some of your clients.

You are not an objective observer devoid of biases and political ideology. None of us are. The way that you've spoken so far about your transgender clients and some of your assumptions about what they are looking for in treatment are concerning. The views you hold influence how you interact with your clients, and you're also a factor in their treatment and their reactions to you. It seems like you're conceptualizing negative reactions to you or poor outcomes as due to an inherent aspect of their pathology, rather than examining the possibility that there is something about how you're engaging with them that might bring out some of those defensive or emotionally reactive traits.
 
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Seems relevant to the board, perhaps in particular the "feeling attacked" thread....

How to Ruin Sex Research

Thoughts, all?

Fascinating. The jab at progressives and the works of certain theorists was telling. I wonder--is autogynephilia a "cause," or a reason for the development, of transexuality in Western natal men, or is it rather a strong correlate if not defining characteristic? Might that question, remaining more or less unasked, be what triggered the activist's interruption? The unstated assumption is that "reasons" exist, at all, and can be scientifically isolated, further--that subjects should be willing to help articulate their reason for being the way they are if they want better treatment. This, the notion that science somehow stands apart from ideology, strikes me as entirely problematic.
 
Here are two important papers reviewing the shoddy evidence for autogynephilia, its theoretical problems, and why the focus on it does far more harm to the trans community than it does good:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00918369.2010.486241
http://www.juliaserano.com/av/Serano-CaseAgainstAutogynephilia.pdf


To be clear the author of the first article does not seem critical of the construct in itself so much as critical of using it to pathologize the trans community.
 
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