JohnUC33

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I'm not even in medical school yet (starting in the Fall of 06), but I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn (I'm ashamed for even writing that corny joke) :oops: Anyways, I work as an E.R. tech. For those who are actually on rotations and have nurses that are not so nice, I've figured out the key to winning them over---talk to them about their children. Just find a little dead time and just ask them if they have kids and just listen (or pretend) to them talk about them. As questions every now and then and act impressed with their kids life. Now, I must admit that most of my nurses are pretty nice (except for this one...but lets not go there), yet I've "broken the ice" with several by using the kids issue. I'm sure someone will have derogatory comment about this post, but I thought it might help someone.
 

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JohnUC33 said:
I'm not even in medical school yet (starting in the Fall of 06), but I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn (I'm ashamed for even writing that corny joke) :oops: Anyways, I work as an E.R. tech. For those who are actually on rotations and have nurses that are not so nice, I've figured out the key to winning them over---talk to them about their children. Just find a little dead time and just ask them if they have kids and just listen (or pretend) to them talk about them. As questions every now and then and act impressed with their kids life. Now, I must admit that most of my nurses are pretty nice (except for this one...but lets not go there), yet I've "broken the ice" with several by using the kids issue. I'm sure someone will have derogatory comment about this post, but I thought it might help someone.

Sounds to me that all you have to do is be a decent human being and acknowledge the RN's existance. Doesnt seem to hard, seems like everyone should do this to everybody whether President of the US or Janitor at the hospital. Keep your attitude and you will do great. But then you said you werent a med student yet, that is the key. Once you become a med student you are all of a sudden and big shot, that gets disrepected by attending so you disrespect those under you. Having the Nurses on your side will do nothing but work in your advantage. Having them hate you, well then you have about say 250 RN's in the hospital that will make your life hell. Just be cool and respectful and you will get the same in return even more for the most part.
 

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Chitchatting about kids and weekend plans may work in the nurse-tech interaction, but it's different as a medical student. The nurses aren't going to be your buddies. You're on the "doctor" team now, but you're not a doctor yet. I was in a room one time, putting orders in a patient's chart (had run them to my senior to get them co-signed), and I saw a nurse pull up my name on the paging system. She read my name aloud (pronounced incorrectly), and then said "medical student, that's not who I want to talk to." I went up to her and explained that I was the intern equivalent for that patient as the Sub-I, and addressed the patient's issue. I also let her know that although it might take longer because I was a Sub-I, the issue would be taken care of. The nurses just want to get the work done, and get in contact with someone with an MD to get orders written. They don't care about your education. My advice is to treat everyone with respect, patients, doctors, nurses, phebotomists, clerks, everybody. You can't go wrong with that.
 
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JohnUC33 said:
I'm not even in medical school yet (starting in the Fall of 06), but I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn (I'm ashamed for even writing that corny joke) :oops: Anyways, I work as an E.R. tech. For those who are actually on rotations and have nurses that are not so nice, I've figured out the key to winning them over---talk to them about their children. Just find a little dead time and just ask them if they have kids and just listen (or pretend) to them talk about them. As questions every now and then and act impressed with their kids life. Now, I must admit that most of my nurses are pretty nice (except for this one...but lets not go there), yet I've "broken the ice" with several by using the kids issue. I'm sure someone will have derogatory comment about this post, but I thought it might help someone.
Ah. but the time tested way to a nurse's heart is through their stomach. Yes indeed, doughnuts can go a very long way. Now, is this promoting healthy eating habits, healthy lifestyles, a productive way to deal with stress and all that 1o care nab nab. Hell no. But it does smooth the road....discussing kids is too much effort. Bring the goods, drop them in the lounge with a little note signed "the medical student," and your're golden.

-PB
 

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JohnUC33 said:
I'm not even in medical school yet (starting in the Fall of 06), but I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn (I'm ashamed for even writing that corny joke) :oops: Anyways, I work as an E.R. tech. For those who are actually on rotations and have nurses that are not so nice, I've figured out the key to winning them over---talk to them about their children. Just find a little dead time and just ask them if they have kids and just listen (or pretend) to them talk about them. As questions every now and then and act impressed with their kids life. Now, I must admit that most of my nurses are pretty nice (except for this one...but lets not go there), yet I've "broken the ice" with several by using the kids issue. I'm sure someone will have derogatory comment about this post, but I thought it might help someone.
Normally I like to pick up nurses that don't have children. Too much baggage.
 

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I thought everyone knew - to win over the nurses you must bring them chocolate!
 

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orientedtoself said:
Chitchatting about kids and weekend plans may work in the nurse-tech interaction, but it's different as a medical student. The nurses aren't going to be your buddies. You're on the "doctor" team now, but you're not a doctor yet. I was in a room one time, putting orders in a patient's chart (had run them to my senior to get them co-signed), and I saw a nurse pull up my name on the paging system. She read my name aloud (pronounced incorrectly), and then said "medical student, that's not who I want to talk to." I went up to her and explained that I was the intern equivalent for that patient as the Sub-I, and addressed the patient's issue. I also let her know that although it might take longer because I was a Sub-I, the issue would be taken care of. The nurses just want to get the work done, and get in contact with someone with an MD to get orders written. They don't care about your education. My advice is to treat everyone with respect, patients, doctors, nurses, phebotomists, clerks, everybody. You can't go wrong with that.
True.....Give and take respect is the rule, wherever you are...As medical students our status is "in between"...The doctors think we are just a student and the nurses take us to be another doctor..:confused:
 

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Most people will warm up to you when you smile and say hello. It is hard to be nasty when the other person is friendly. As Dale Carnegie has said, and as you probably know, as long as you acknowledge their hard work and their unbearable situation, they will usually avoid being nasty.
Notice how I did not say that they would be nice. That is asking a lot. They will just refrain from making your day worse, and that is all you can ask of a stranger.
 
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The quick and dirty way to deal with nurses is this: be extremely competent, reasonably confident, and very respectful of their territory/responsibilities/expertise.
 

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Telemachus said:
The quick and dirty way to deal with nurses is this: be extremely competent, reasonably confident, and very respectful of their territory/responsibilities/expertise.
Exactly. My team's service covers patients on like 10 different units, you can't be expected to be chummy with that many people. If you were working with the same few nurses on one unit every day, that would be a different story.
 

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I thought this thread was about hooking up with nurses :confused: Now that would be a thread :thumbup: :D
 

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NRAI2001 said:
I thought this thread was about hooking up with nurses :confused: Now that would be a thread :thumbup:
You have to "Win Over a Nurse" before you can hook up with her.

Some nurses just require more of an effort than others.
 

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Are their any cute nurses at your hospitals? Most of the nurses I have seen are far from cute. How did the stereotype of nurses being cute arise?
 
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NRAI2001 said:
Are their any cute nurses at your hospitals? Most of the nurses I have seen are far from cute. How did the stereotype of nurses being cute arise?
Peds
PICU
NICU
ER

I've seen plenty of hot nurses in those areas.

Any others?
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
Peds
PICU
NICU
ER

I've seen plenty of hot nurses in those areas.
you must be rotating in OKC or getting really, really drunk before work everyday.
 

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DireWolf said:
you must be rotating in OKC or getting really, really drunk before work everyday.
I was actually talking about hospitals in Dallas, but I WILL be rotating in OKC.
 

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Ah,
The interaction with a work mate............hmmmmmmm,
could be dangerous if things go sour, and plenty of time left at that location.

So,
my advice, give them plenty of respect and treat them like gold. They are there to make your life easier..........if they desire.

Compliments go far...............".I like what you've done with your hair today".....................Then back off and leave it alone.
Don't forget to bring in their favorite ethnic foods, most Philipina nurses
will never pass up Balute, or a small candy dish.
The object here is to melt them, without the shark attack.

If there is something more there............you'll find out from one of the others.

Foil :p
 

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foil said:
Ah,
The interaction with a work mate............hmmmmmmm,
could be dangerous if things go sour, and plenty of time left at that location.


So,
my advice, give them plenty of respect and treat them like gold. They are there to make your life easier..........if they desire.

Compliments go far...............".I like what you've done with your hair today".....................Then back off and leave it alone.
Don't forget to bring in their favorite ethnic foods, most Philipina nurses
will never pass up Balute, or a small candy dish.
The object here is to melt them, without the shark attack.

If there is something more there............you'll find out from one of the others.

Foil :p
That's why you wait 'til the last shift to finish the job.
 

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foil said:
Ah,
The interaction with a work mate............hmmmmmmm,
could be dangerous if things go sour, and plenty of time left at that location.

So,
my advice, give them plenty of respect and treat them like gold. They are there to make your life easier..........if they desire.

Compliments go far...............".I like what you've done with your hair today".....................Then back off and leave it alone.
Don't forget to bring in their favorite ethnic foods, most Philipina nurses
will never pass up Balute, or a small candy dish.
The object here is to melt them, without the shark attack.

If there is something more there............you'll find out from one of the others.

Foil :p
I dont see whats wrong with hitting on a nurse as long as you re respectful? If shes not interested then move on. If it works out great. If it works out for a while and things go sour later, i dont think it ll be a huge issue?

But i ve never been in this situations so I dont know exactly how things would really work out?
 
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NRAI2001 said:
I dont see whats wrong with hitting on a nurse as long as you re respectful? If shes not interested then move on. If it works out great. If it works out for a while and things go sour later, i dont think it ll be a huge issue?

But i ve never been in this situations so I dont know exactly how things would really work out?
Generally speaking, don't dip you pen in the company inkwell. There's a reason that saying has persisted beyond the age of quill pens.....
 
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As a med stuent, it is also helpful to ask the nurses for their professional opinion while making it clear that they know more than you do. It is true and the fact that them that you understand their significance will make a big difference.

Case in point; My friend who is finishig up residency in nuclear medicine made it a point to ask nurses their opinions about seemingly simple procedures and work-ups. In the end, the nurses allowed him to sleep on call while paging the bastard med students over and over again for next to nothing. Let's just say he had plenty of rest during his calls:)
 

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McGillGrad said:
As a med stuent, it is also helpful to ask the nurses for their professional opinion while making it clear that they know more than you do. It is true and the fact that them that you understand their significance will make a big difference.

Case in point; My friend who is finishig up residency in nuclear medicine made it a point to ask nurses their opinions about seemingly simple procedures and work-ups. In the end, the nurses allowed him to sleep on call while paging the bastard med students over and over again for next to nothing. Let's just say he had plenty of rest during his calls:)

My experience has been vastly different. The nurses do know a lot about the ins and outs of the hospital, and are helpful when you need to locate something or need to know who to call to get something done, but I've found that their medical knowledge is often frighteningly thin. Furthermore, I've been amazed at how much more I as a third year MS know about conditions, medications, etc than the average floor nurse. Granted, I've never worked in the ICU setting, where most of the best nurses gravitate.
 

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Learn a little Tagalog. Say "kamusta kah?" when you first greet them. They will be suprised and like you :)
 
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PlasticMan said:
Learn a little Tagalog. Say "kamusta kah?" when you first greet them. They will be suprised and like you :)
Just remember, "yes doctor" is tagalog for "F--- you"
 

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If you're on my unit don't make small talk, don't bring me doughnuts, and believe me, I have no interest in discussing my personal life with you. I know you are there to learn so do what you have to do and move on. I have no problem completing written orders from a student if they are appropriate (eg. Tylenol 650mg IVP, no such thing). Treat me with genuine respect and I'll do the same but don't patronize me. Remember, the nurse is the last line of defense for the patient. Every nurse I know, including myself, have saved physicians from making serious mistakes and possibly causing harm to patients. I have respect for your training but discount mine, that kind of arrogance will only get you in trouble and may harm somebody someday. Just a few helpful tips to make everyones job a little more pleasant.
P.S. If you hit on me, I'll bust the teeth out of your head ;)
 

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burnt40 said:
If you're on my unit don't make small talk, don't bring me doughnuts, and believe me, I have no interest in discussing my personal life with you. I know you are there to learn so do what you have to do and move on. I have no problem completing written orders from a student if they are appropriate (eg. Tylenol 650mg IVP, no such thing). Treat me with genuine respect and I'll do the same but don't patronize me. Remember, the nurse is the last line of defense for the patient. Every nurse I know, including myself, have saved physicians from making serious mistakes and possibly causing harm to patients. I have respect for your training but discount mine, that kind of arrogance will only get you in trouble and may harm somebody someday. Just a few helpful tips to make everyones job a little more pleasant.
P.S. If you hit on me, I'll bust the teeth out of your head ;)
Dam, someones got issues :scared:
 

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PlasticMan said:
Learn a little Tagalog. Say "kamusta kah?" when you first greet them. They will be suprised and like you :)




Rather try this: komoasta magunda dalaga ( how are you beautiful woman)
komoasta magunda bini-bini ( young beautiful girl)
bahook-mo magunda ( your hair is beautiful)
ikow-masurap ( you are delicious)
maliboog ako ( I am horny)
maliboog-ka? ( are you horney)
nyion-din ( right now)
hali-ka-na (let's go now)


foil ;)
 

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PickyBicky said:
Ah. but the time tested way to a nurse's heart is through their stomach. Yes indeed, doughnuts can go a very long way. Now, is this promoting healthy eating habits, healthy lifestyles, a productive way to deal with stress and all that 1o care nab nab. Hell no. But it does smooth the road....discussing kids is too much effort. Bring the goods, drop them in the lounge with a little note signed "the medical student," and your're golden.

-PB
That's kind of insulting, and isn't what really works to have a good rapport with the nursing staff. Neither is trying to chit-chat about kids...some of us don't have kids, BTW.

What works is acting like a decent human, asking where things are rather than demanding that the nurse drops what he/she's doing to go get it for you, respecting that the nursing staff have a crucial role in patient care (and making your life easier) and not confusing the hospital for "The Dating Game."

The med students who seem to have the most trouble are the ones who act like everyone should genuflect whenever they pass by. In all fairness, these people would probably be the same no matter what profession they chose.
 

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fab4fan said:
That's kind of insulting, and isn't what really works to have a good rapport with the nursing staff. Neither is trying to chit-chat about kids...some of us don't have kids, BTW.

What works is acting like a decent human, asking where things are rather than demanding that the nurse drops what he/she's doing to go get it for you, respecting that the nursing staff have a crucial role in patient care (and making your life easier) and not confusing the hospital for "The Dating Game."

The med students who seem to have the most trouble are the ones who act like everyone should genuflect whenever they pass by. In all fairness, these people would probably be the same no matter what profession they chose.
1. The hierarchy of hot RN chicks is right on--peds/peds ER's, any hospital area to do with peds--always has the hottest ones. AND you can seduce the mommies--take home the RN and the MILFer together. :thumbup:
2. My old paramedic partner used to say: never piss off waitresses and dispatchers--they can make your life hell. I'd add to the list any human being with the knowledge of your pager #
 

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fab4fan said:
What works is acting like a decent human, asking where things are rather than demanding that the nurse drops what he/she's doing to go get it for you, respecting that the nursing staff have a crucial role in patient care (and making your life easier) and not confusing the hospital for "The Dating Game."
I agree with the above. The nurses I've worked with just loved it when I asked if they would show me things instead of doing them for me, even simple things like where to get the patient census list or where different items were in the supply room. One of them said that in the 3 years she'd worked at the hospital, no doctors or med students had ever asked her how to access certain patient information so they could get it themselves instead of asking her. They really do appreciate stuff like that and would be more likely to make your life easier if you tried doing things that way.
 
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kaos said:
I agree with the above. The nurses I've worked with just loved it when I asked if they would show me things instead of doing them for me, even simple things like where to get the patient census list or where different items were in the supply room. One of them said that in the 3 years she'd worked at the hospital, no doctors or med students had ever asked her how to access certain patient information so they could get it themselves instead of asking her. They really do appreciate stuff like that and would be more likely to make your life easier if you tried doing things that way.
That will get you much further than a box of Krispy Kremes, to be sure.

In all honesty, 98% of the med students I've dealt with have been terrific; I'd give about an 85% to docs. It's so much easier to get along with each other instead of all the adversarial BS that happens. Yes, I do know nurses who would play stupid games like page the intern on call in the middle of the night for a Tyelnol order...stupid! Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
 

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Talk to them about their children? That is your way of winning them over? Why don't you just try being yourself and treating them like one of your colleagues.
 

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foil said:
Rather try this: komoasta magunda dalaga ( how are you beautiful woman)
komoasta magunda bini-bini ( young beautiful girl)
bahook-mo magunda ( your hair is beautiful)
ikow-masurap ( you are delicious)
maliboog ako ( I am horny)
maliboog-ka? ( are you horney)
nyion-din ( right now)
hali-ka-na (let's go now)


foil ;)
your tagalog is :laugh:
:thumbup:
it's "kumusta" not "kamusta" , you have really mixed up the "U"s and "A"s
anyways, are there that many Filipino nurses now?
 

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fab4fan said:
That's kind of insulting, and isn't what really works to have a good rapport with the nursing staff. Neither is trying to chit-chat about kids...some of us don't have kids, BTW.

What works is acting like a decent human, asking where things are rather than demanding that the nurse drops what he/she's doing to go get it for you, respecting that the nursing staff have a crucial role in patient care (and making your life easier) and not confusing the hospital for "The Dating Game."

The med students who seem to have the most trouble are the ones who act like everyone should genuflect whenever they pass by. In all fairness, these people would probably be the same no matter what profession they chose.
Yup! since nurses spend more time with the patient, they tend to know more, it would help you if you show them that you recognize that role when you confer with them. ;)
 

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burnt40 said:
If you're on my unit don't make small talk, don't bring me doughnuts, and believe me, I have no interest in discussing my personal life with you. I know you are there to learn so do what you have to do and move on. I have no problem completing written orders from a student if they are appropriate (eg. Tylenol 650mg IVP, no such thing). Treat me with genuine respect and I'll do the same but don't patronize me. Remember, the nurse is the last line of defense for the patient. Every nurse I know, including myself, have saved physicians from making serious mistakes and possibly causing harm to patients. I have respect for your training but discount mine, that kind of arrogance will only get you in trouble and may harm somebody someday. Just a few helpful tips to make everyones job a little more pleasant.
P.S. If you hit on me, I'll bust the teeth out of your head ;)
Now that's more like it! My experiences thus far have been that RNs hate med students. Cute and cuddly as we may appear now, they've probably learned what to expect from us once we get those two little letters at the end of our names. As long as I stay nonthreatening (lay on the ground and hold very still), I manage not to draw their animosity. The LPNs are a little nicer, and the nursing students, until they've been propositioned by enough interns, are reasonably friendly human beings.

Here's to writing for Dilaudid at 4 am!
 

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A sheepish smile will make them feel sorry for you and be nice.
 

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What about basic manners? This is what worked for me. Maybe there should be a class..Hmmm.
BTW....coffee always workes for me. I will take back rubs too! :rolleyes:

I have to laugh at all the coments about the good looking nurses. Trust me it works both ways. Our last batch of students must have got hit with the ugly stick on the way to med school :p
 

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burnt40 said:
P.S. If you hit on me, I'll bust the teeth out of your head ;)

But what if I'm hot? :cool:




Anyways, I do agree that all these sure-fire tactics are insulting and half-******ed. The best way for a student to "get in good" with a nurse is to recognize her as 1)clinically experienced, and 2) very busy.

Show her respect, stay out of the way, and prepare to still get picked on by her.....sh#t rolls downhill, and there's not much downhill from the short white coat.
 

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NRAI2001 said:
Are their any cute nurses at your hospitals? Most of the nurses I have seen are far from cute. How did the stereotype of nurses being cute arise?

In my experience....

Nursing Students = cute

Nurses = generally not cute

So, when does the changeover occur?
 

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burnt40 said:
If you're on my unit don't make small talk, don't bring me doughnuts, and believe me, I have no interest in discussing my personal life with you. I know you are there to learn so do what you have to do and move on. I have no problem completing written orders from a student if they are appropriate (eg. Tylenol 650mg IVP, no such thing). Treat me with genuine respect and I'll do the same but don't patronize me. Remember, the nurse is the last line of defense for the patient. Every nurse I know, including myself, have saved physicians from making serious mistakes and possibly causing harm to patients. I have respect for your training but discount mine, that kind of arrogance will only get you in trouble and may harm somebody someday. Just a few helpful tips to make everyones job a little more pleasant.
P.S. If you hit on me, I'll bust the teeth out of your head ;)
You are one mean battleaxe of a nurse. :laugh:
 

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jason3278 said:
In my experience....

Nursing Students = cute

Nurses = generally not cute

So, when does the changeover occur?
When they get introduced to donuts.
 

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SLUser11 said:
But what if I'm hot? :cool:




Anyways, I do agree that all these sure-fire tactics are insulting and half-******ed. The best way for a student to "get in good" with a nurse is to recognize her as 1)clinically experienced, and 2) very busy.

Show her respect, stay out of the way, and prepare to still get picked on by her.....sh#t rolls downhill, and there's not much downhill from the short white coat.
Funny thought, if you kinda think about the situation, RN's constantly complain how they dont' get respect from doctors. But interestingly enough when student comes along (words like **** rolls down the hill, or bringing coffee to the nurses, or staying out of the way). See RN's dont' respect the student, b/c they don't know much and they just slow them down and ask "stupid q" at times. Well what do you think a doctor who spent most of his best years in school is gonna think of an RN. Come on now. You think that med student isn't gonna remember that once they are an MD and dish it all back.

I think if nurses tried to be more helpful to students coming in show them more around, they might get respect in return when these students become doctors one day.

Prepared to get still be picked on her. Well than they better be prepared to be talked down to when that med student is a doctor, cuz like you said **** rolls downhill.

Disclaimer: Not all nurses are bad not all doctors are good. It is the bad seeds that give the bad name to the rest.
 

SLUser11

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tupac_don said:
Funny thought, if you kinda think about the situation, RN's constantly complain how they dont' get respect from doctors. But interestingly enough when student comes along (words like **** rolls down the hill, or bringing coffee to the nurses, or staying out of the way). See RN's dont' respect the student, b/c they don't know much and they just slow them down and ask "stupid q" at times. Well what do you think a doctor who spent most of his best years in school is gonna think of an RN. Come on now. You think that med student isn't gonna remember that once they are an MD and dish it all back.

I think if nurses tried to be more helpful to students coming in show them more around, they might get respect in return when these students become doctors one day.

Prepared to get still be picked on her. Well than they better be prepared to be talked down to when that med student is a doctor, cuz like you said **** rolls downhill.

Disclaimer: Not all nurses are bad not all doctors are good. It is the bad seeds that give the bad name to the rest.
I somewhat agree....lots of nurses in academic hospitals have horrible attitudes, and really have no place in a TEACHING hospital. But at the same time, most of their behavior is learned.....Nursing students see more experienced nurses complaining about med students, and they think "yeah! They ARE dumb! They don't know my patient's like I do..." and so the cycle of bitchy nurses continues....and so the cycle of upset residents continue.......such is the fostered antagonism of the teaching hospital, and different members of the health care team butt heads habitually.....

BUT, go to a PRIVATE hospital.....where that same learned hatred of the med students isn't ingrained into the system.....and the nurses are sweethearts. :thumbup:
PLUS, the nurses are much hotter at private hospitals.....this is a proven fact. :rolleyes:
 

tupac_don

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SLUser11 said:
I somewhat agree....lots of nurses in academic hospitals have horrible attitudes, and really have no place in a TEACHING hospital. But at the same time, most of their behavior is learned.....Nursing students see more experienced nurses complaining about med students, and they think "yeah! They ARE dumb! They don't know my patient's like I do..." and so the cycle of bitchy nurses continues....and so the cycle of upset residents continue.......such is the fostered antagonism of the teaching hospital, and different members of the health care team butt heads habitually.....

BUT, go to a PRIVATE hospital.....where that same learned hatred of the med students isn't ingrained into the system.....and the nurses are sweethearts. :thumbup:
PLUS, the nurses are much hotter at private hospitals.....this is a proven fact. :rolleyes:
Don't know about private hospitals. But that statement makes sense. Usually private hospitals are about making money for their investorts, and best way to get people to come to your hospital is to have class A service, both from nurses and physicians. So your statement definetly has merit.
 

Blake

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jason3278 said:
In my experience....

Nursing Students = cute

Nurses = generally not cute

So, when does the changeover occur?
The cute ones get married and either become stay-at-home wives or part-time nurses, from what I've seen/heard.
 

OSUdoc08

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jason3278 said:
In my experience....

Nursing Students = cute

Nurses = generally not cute

So, when does the changeover occur?
I'm not sure what nursing students you have been looking at, but the ratio seems pretty even to me. The reason you may see more attractive nurses in a particular department is that all nursing students are required to rotate through each area.

Once they finish, most are found in Pediatrics, Pediatric specialties, or ER.
 

mesoderm

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Are female nurses friendlier to male students and residents? Seems like female students and residents would have a harder time w/female nurses. Has anyone observed anything like this on the wards?
 
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