How would one make over $500K with the future health reform?

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OP - If you're worried about making $500K as a doc, you're in the wrong field. Go start a business and screw over the third world, the environment, and find some cheap labor and then maybe you'll find that ill-gotten pot of gold you're looking for.

I'm just tired of people feeling entitled - yes, doctors need extensive training, they work incredibly hard, and should be compensated well. But $500K? No way - plus, wake up! Baby boomers are just starting to retire, and doc's compensation will most likely be on a downward trajectory in order to control costs in helping all those folks. It's just the way it is. Again, if you don't like, then don't do it.
 
NH14 said:
OP - If you're worried about making $500K as a doc, you're in the wrong field. Go start a business and screw over the third world, the environment, and find some cheap labor and then maybe you'll find that ill-gotten pot of gold you're looking for.

I'm just tired of people feeling entitled - yes, doctors need extensive training, they work incredibly hard, and should be compensated well. But $500K? No way - plus, wake up! Baby boomers are just starting to retire, and doc's compensation will most likely be on a downward trajectory in order to control costs in helping all those folks. It's just the way it is. Again, if you don't like, then don't do it.
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Actually, basic economics says that with the coming huge influx of very sick patients as the baby-boomers age, if the supply of doctors does not increase, compensation will increase, not decrease. I am not aware of what economic theories state that when supply is steady and demand increases, cost goes DOWN. Even if reimbursement rates begin to decrease to control costs, the increasing scarcity of doctors relative to demand will increase those willing to pay out-of-pocket for quality care, so overall compensation will increase barring huge future changes.
 
paul411 said:
I think we are on the path to huge future changes because healthcare costs are a huge part of America's economic woes.
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That is probably true, but no one can predict with any accuracy whatsoever how, exactly, those changes will or will not impact physician compensation. Drastically reducing the pay of doctors isn't exactly the best way to help with the physician shortage after all.....
 
theseeker4 said:
Actually, basic economics says that with the coming huge influx of very sick patients as the baby-boomers age, if the supply of doctors does not increase, compensation will increase, not decrease. I am not aware of what economic theories state that when supply is steady and demand increases, cost goes DOWN. Even if reimbursement rates begin to decrease to control costs, the increasing scarcity of doctors relative to demand will increase those willing to pay out-of-pocket for quality care, so overall compensation will increase barring huge future changes.
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Yes, but we aren't talking about basic economics are we? You have to remember, doctors, in most cases, are NOT paid directly by health-care consumers. Thus, especially in the case of health care for the elderly, the federal government is the largest payor via medicare. Thus the supply-demand chain is not that simple. Plus, we are talking about health care here, which, in general is not subject to the basic economic principles for numerous reasons. The most fundamental being that consumers have little to no knowledge, and must rely on specialists to tell them what to purchase. Basic economic theory, the ones you want to apply, assume that the consumer has full knowledge - which is akin to saying that every patient can self-diagnose and can also self-treat. 'Yes, I think I have appendicitis, let me just hire a surgeon to take that sucker out, and I'll pick my pain meds out after the surgery...'

You are right that there will be an increase in demand. However, doctors, as they have already, will benefit little or not at all from this increased demand. Intermediaries such as health insurance companies, medical tech, pharmaceuticals, etc. will be the greatest beneficiaries.

EDIT: Read it and weep: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/
 
NH14 said:
Yes, but we aren't talking about basic economics are we? You have to remember, doctors, in most cases, are NOT paid directly by health-care consumers. Thus, especially in the case of health care for the elderly, the federal government is the largest payor via medicare. Thus the supply-demand chain is not that simple. Plus, we are talking about health care here, which, in general is not subject to the basic economic principles for numerous reasons. The most fundamental being that consumers have little to no knowledge, and must rely on specialists to tell them what to purchase. Basic economic theory, the ones you want to apply, assume that the consumer has full knowledge - which is akin to saying that every patient can self-diagnose and can also self-treat. 'Yes, I think I have appendicitis, let me just hire a surgeon to take that sucker out, and I'll pick my pain meds out after the surgery...'

You are right that there will be an increase in demand. However, doctors, as they have already, will benefit little or not at all from this increased demand. Intermediaries such as health insurance companies, medical tech, pharmaceuticals, etc. will be the greatest beneficiaries.

EDIT: Read it and weep: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/
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And what is the difference in student loan debt between those other countries and here? We already have cash-only practices springing up, and I hardly think this is a trend that is going to DECREASE if compensation continues to decrease.
 
NH14 said:
OP - If you're worried about making $500K as a doc, you're in the wrong field. Go start a business and screw over the third world, the environment, and find some cheap labor and then maybe you'll find that ill-gotten pot of gold you're looking for.

I'm just tired of people feeling entitled - yes, doctors need extensive training, they work incredibly hard, and should be compensated well. But $500K? No way - plus, wake up! Baby boomers are just starting to retire, and doc's compensation will most likely be on a downward trajectory in order to control costs in helping all those folks. It's just the way it is. Again, if you don't like, then don't do it.
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Seriously? ffs
If you're going to criticize at least read the damn post.
If you actually read the post, you would have seen:
"It seems people are getting confused. I am not asking how I can get over $500K if I pursue medicine. I was just wondering if those high-paying salaries days will be over, out of interest, a discussion rather. Not a question for my own benefit."
 
NH14 said:
OP - If you're worried about making $500K as a doc, you're in the wrong field. Go start a business and screw over the third world, the environment, and find some cheap labor and then maybe you'll find that ill-gotten pot of gold you're looking for.

I'm just tired of people feeling entitled - yes, doctors need extensive training, they work incredibly hard, and should be compensated well. But $500K? No way - plus, wake up! Baby boomers are just starting to retire, and doc's compensation will most likely be on a downward trajectory in order to control costs in helping all those folks. It's just the way it is. Again, if you don't like, then don't do it.
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Doctors are not really entitled to anything, much less a six figure salary, regardless of the cost of medical school and the loans. The Constitution does not grant them the right to a high income.
 
theseeker4 said:
And what is the difference in student loan debt between those other countries and here? We already have cash-only practices springing up, and I hardly think this is a trend that is going to DECREASE if compensation continues to decrease.
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Seeker, you should really take the time to learn about how our healthcare system works before making claims such as this. The poster before you gave a very educated and informative response which is that the healthcare system is not regulated by simple supply and demand economics. I am not going to repeat what he said, but essentially physicians nor patients directly control the cost of healthcare. Insurance companies be they governmental or private dictate these costs. Pharmaceutical companies, external factors, new discoveries and patents etc etc... are what play a huge role in the cost of healthcare. There has always been a physician shortage in the country, and its not as if this has lead to a dramatic rise in physician salary even in the unregulated state that healthcare is in. This is a silly argument. A good physician will not allow money to dictate quality of care or motivation to help patients and that is the bottomline.
 
CeltSoxDoc said:
Seeker, you should really take the time to learn about how our healthcare system works before making claims such as this. The poster before you gave a very educated and informative response which is that the healthcare system is not regulated by simple supply and demand economics. I am not going to repeat what he said, but essentially physicians nor patients directly control the cost of healthcare. Insurance companies be they governmental or private dictate these costs. Pharmaceutical companies, external factors, new discoveries and patents etc etc... are what play a huge role in the cost of healthcare. There has always been a physician shortage in the country, and its not as if this has lead to a dramatic rise in physician salary even in the unregulated state that healthcare is in. This is a silly argument. A good physician will not allow money to dictate quality of care or motivation to help patients and that is the bottomline.
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Says who? There are plenty of good physicians who do not take medicare/medicaid due to crappy reimbursements. Money is a factor.
 
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Dubaifan490 said:
Doctors are not really entitled to anything, much less a six figure salary, regardless of the cost of medical school and the loans. The Constitution does not grant them the right to a high income.
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And it also doesn't give a patient the right to receive healthcare.
 
if you're a doctor, you can always find a way to get $$$. My uncle's a family physician, and he's filthy rich. The money will come, you just have to put in the work.
 
gettheleadout said:
I agree with this.

You can live very comfortably on half of that.
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I tried to say that you could live very comfortably on 100K on a thread a few months ago and someone said they have a hard time believing someone could live comfortably on that. ???
Anything in the six figure range is alot of money. And it is guaranteed money, because the world will always need doctors. Money should not be the sole motivating factor to pursue medicine, but anyone who thinks it shouldn't be a factor at all is joking with themselves.
 
StephanieZ said:
I tried to say that you could live very comfortably on 100K on a thread a few months ago and someone said they have a hard time believing someone could live comfortably on that. ???
Anything in the six figure range is alot of money. And it is guaranteed money, because the world will always need doctors. Money should not be the sole motivating factor to pursue medicine, but anyone who thinks it shouldn't be a factor at all is joking with themselves.
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Exactly. Now, granted this may vary based on the COL where you are, but I would wager that in most places in the US you won't be worrying about keeping your car running, putting as much food as you need on the table, keeping your family safe, and saving for retirement/college with just above/around six figures.
 
Just because you can live "comfortably" on $100k doesn't mean that should serveas a ceiling for all salaries. I'm not really sure while people have such a hard on for limiting physician salaries while in all other fields greed is entirely unchecked.
 
NickNaylor said:
Just because you can live "comfortably" on $100k doesn't mean that should serveas a ceiling for all salaries. I'm not really sure while people have such a hard on for limiting physician salaries while in all other fields greed is entirely unchecked.
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With soaring health care costs, people will naturally blame the "greedy doctors".
 
NickNaylor said:
Just because you can live "comfortably" on $100k doesn't mean that should serveas a ceiling for all salaries. I'm not really sure while people have such a hard on for limiting physician salaries while in all other fields greed is entirely unchecked.
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I was just making the point that the floor for "comfortable" living is lower than people think. I think the idea that there is some universally "appropriate" amount for physicians to be compensated is ignorant and impractical.
 
gettheleadout said:
I was just making the point that the floor for "comfortable" living is lower than people think. I think the idea that there is some universally "appropriate" amount for physicians to be compensated is ignorant and impractical.
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I wasn't necessarily pointing at you, but there ARE people who think that even $100k is too much for physicians.

Absolutely ridiculous.
 
NickNaylor said:
I wasn't necessarily pointing at you, but there ARE people who think that even $100k is too much for physicians.

Absolutely ridiculous.
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Those same people likely believe 100K isn't enough for nurses.
 
NickNaylor said:
I wasn't necessarily pointing at you, but there ARE people who think that even $100k is too much for physicians.

Absolutely ridiculous.
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There's a double standard for physicians and non-physicians. Ie. A CEO should earn over $1 mil for their "hard" work for running a huge enterprise, while the family doc down the street makes mad money from your maladies and should be paid next to nothing.

People have a massive sense of entitlement. They think that they deserve everything under the sun for free and get angry when they have to pay the co-pay for something that appears to them as a simple procedure. Unfortunately, physician compensation is largely influenced by the government, which in turn is influenced by the people. Am I arguing for cash-only practices? No. Am I affirming that we shouldn't accept Medicare/Medicaid ? No. I am merely stating that this is what the current situation is.

Unfortunately, there is a cure for most diseases, but not for human incompetency.
 
FlowRate said:
In any regulated system, there will always be a way to game the system to some degree.

While the regulators (pretend or not) try to align payment with outcomes, you try to maximize payment always.
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How so?
 
There are people that bust their ass every single day and don't even make 20k a year and we got you dreaming and drooling all over studentdoc with indirect inquiries about 500k. If you're not interested in making that money for "personal reasons" then why are you even bringing it up. Seriously wtf you're a tool dude clearly money is a very big motive if it wasn't you wouldn't post this idiotic thread :thumbdown:
 
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You have two arms. It stands to reason that you can operate on two people at the same time.
 
flodhi1 said:
There are people that bust their ass every single day and don't even make 20k a year and we got you dreaming and drooling all over studentdoc with indirect inquiries about 500k. If you're not interested in making that money for "personal reasons" then why are you even bringing it up. Seriously wtf you're a tool dude clearly money is a very big motive if it wasn't you wouldn't post this idiotic thread :thumbdown:
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I honestly wish people would read the damn thing before criticizing. Is it really that hard to read?

I'm bringing it up for a DISCUSSION, OUT OF INTEREST. I'm wondering if with the high-elite doctors of today, if those days will be over in the future because of the future health reform. I definitely do not want over $500K.

I quote:
If you actually read the post, you would have seen:
"It seems people are getting confused. I am not asking how I can get over $500K if I pursue medicine. I was just wondering if those high-paying salaries days will be over, out of interest, a discussion rather. Not a question for my own benefit.""
 
In America, it has often been considered that doctors are paid too much money. Currently, it seems that many aspects of doctor pay and patient needs have been artificial. As such, sure, I can see why some economic reform is required. However, the problem with government is that it tends to make the economics of issues work in its favor, thus the most money possible to flow in its direction without resolving all of the contemporary issues: Do enough of the right/moral/responsible thing to make the most potential profit from it.

Those who understand economics and government will notice that doing the right/moral thing to the highest potential does not always bring about maximal (or close to maximal) profit.

However, as I've learned more about the medical field, sometimes their salaries are justified. Nonetheless, the play of big business into the medical field (especially with America being as capitalistic as it is) will inevitably attempt to cut the wages of doctors. I believe this cut is not an attempt at a moral justification but is simply attempting to find a way to reduce salaries so that other business individuals can get rich.

That's really an unfortunate case. However, I could see that as plenty of reason for government intervention. It becomes a situation where the government can prevent big business from abusing the health care system and its workers for years to come.

Now, I really believe doctors will definitely not accept below particular wages for particular hours. With that in mind, business owners (health lobbyists or w/e) will have to fight with the doctors for what is suitable.

Has this particular fight not been underway? If it hasn't, then this may be the reason why government may be attempting to cut doctor wages.

I think what will really happen is that America doctors might have living incomes proportional to those of doctors living in Europe or other places with health care reforms that suit the people rather than doctors' financial interests. Even then, doctors will still make a decent amount of money and, if things go right for them, they too will receive decent health care benefits for reduced or no cost.

I think government will surely attempt to step in, because people are noticing the high importance of health care in this modern day. As such, the government will attempt to setup things so that it can get a large piece of the pie as history continues.

As a final note, if supply and demand work well, and the government finds a way to cut doctor's wages, doctors don't want to work as many hours because it's not worth it anymore, and so on... Then med school admissions should be accepting more people.
 
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I started medical school in 2002. I had heard all the rumors of "doctors getting their salaries cut" and other BS. Yet, we all persevered through the hardwork and now I'm almost done with my training. And yes, I'm looking for a handsome payout upon graduation. Namely, $400K starting base salary, + production, + $100K signing bonus.

Did I enter medicine ONLY for money? No. That's a stupid question. But that being said, you need something motivating you to survive 10 long years of grueling training, whether it be money, prestige, or because you really are the chosen one with unwavering altruism. Personally, I know 6 figure incomes will always be there for me. That's the bottom line. I never have to worry about shelter, putting food on the table, or going on vacations, as long as I live within my means. Your question should not be whether $600K salaries will still be there when you "make it." Your real question should be, do I have what it takes to go through hell and back.

Good luck.
 
libertarian said:
I started medical school in 2002. I had heard all the rumors of "doctors getting their salaries cut" and other BS. Yet, we all persevered through the hardwork and now I'm almost done with my training. And yes, I'm looking for a handsome payout upon graduation. Namely, $400K starting base salary, + production, + $100K signing bonus.

Did I enter medicine ONLY for money? No. That's a stupid question. But that being said, you need something motivating you to survive 10 long years of grueling training, whether it be money, prestige, or because you really are the chosen one with unwavering altruism. Personally, I know 6 figure incomes will always be there for me. That's the bottom line. I never have to worry about shelter, putting food on the table, or going on vacations, as long as I live within my means. Your question should not be whether $600K salaries will still be there when you "make it." Your real question should be, do I have what it takes to go through hell and back.

Good luck.
Click to expand...
What specialty are you in?
 
libertarian said:
I started medical school in 2002. I had heard all the rumors of "doctors getting their salaries cut" and other BS. Yet, we all persevered through the hardwork and now I'm almost done with my training. And yes, I'm looking for a handsome payout upon graduation. Namely, $400K starting base salary, + production, + $100K signing bonus.

Did I enter medicine ONLY for money? No. That's a stupid question. But that being said, you need something motivating you to survive 10 long years of grueling training, whether it be money, prestige, or because you really are the chosen one with unwavering altruism. Personally, I know 6 figure incomes will always be there for me. That's the bottom line. I never have to worry about shelter, putting food on the table, or going on vacations, as long as I live within my means. Your question should not be whether $600K salaries will still be there when you "make it." Your real question should be, do I have what it takes to go through hell and back.

Good luck.
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Couple Questions...

Specialty?
Area of Country?
How many hours?
Break down of hours? (nights, call, weekends?)

I can only assume that you are working your ass off, super high paying specialty, or living in some city that has an outrageous COL.
 
Poliscidoc said:
Couple Questions...

Specialty?
Area of Country?
How many hours?
Break down of hours? (nights, call, weekends?)

I can only assume that you are working your ass off, super high paying specialty, or living in some city that has an outrageous COL.
Click to expand...

Outrageously low, perhaps. Fact: locations that are in high demand also typically have high COL (i.e. new york, LA, chicago, boston, etc). Paradoxically, the average physician income in these same [high COL] locations is often lower than the comparative income of physicians in rural (low COL) settings.
 
libertarian said:
I started medical school in 2002. I had heard all the rumors of "doctors getting their salaries cut" and other BS. Yet, we all persevered through the hardwork and now I'm almost done with my training. And yes, I'm looking for a handsome payout upon graduation. Namely, $400K starting base salary, + production, + $100K signing bonus.

Did I enter medicine ONLY for money? No. That's a stupid question. But that being said, you need something motivating you to survive 10 long years of grueling training, whether it be money, prestige, or because you really are the chosen one with unwavering altruism. Personally, I know 6 figure incomes will always be there for me. That's the bottom line. I never have to worry about shelter, putting food on the table, or going on vacations, as long as I live within my means. Your question should not be whether $600K salaries will still be there when you "make it." Your real question should be, do I have what it takes to go through hell and back.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

A lot has changed since 2002, though.

The general public is more intelligent. Main reason: The Internet.

God, I remember when people would never shut up in AOL chatrooms about political issues, which each new couple of lines another chatroom individual spouting some BS.

But many Internet forum boards have communities that actively talk about political issues. The general public has become more intelligent and more responsible and more well read. If the general public is starting to gain a sense of how to make things work in their direction, then it's going to happen. And that has been occurring more and more with advancements in information technology.

I know health reform is going to occur in America. I really believe something that decreases doctor salaries will occur. Perhaps benefits will also occur with reductions in schooling/residency. But wages and salaries are definitely going to go down. When will that occur? Probably 50 years or so. Maybe 30 if Generation Z gives that much of a care. But people say X setup Z to die early, so meh? 50 years?

I'll be a cyborg by then, so I probably won't worry as much about this.
 
the real question is how anyone will make over 500K with this crusade against the rich that Obama is championing
 
Genecks said:
A lot has changed since 2002, though.

The general public is more intelligent. Main reason: The Internet.

...

The general public has become more intelligent and more responsible and more well read. If the general public is starting to gain a sense of how to make things work in their direction, then it's going to happen.
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Considering that most of the Internet is filled with crap, it seems difficult to believe that the public can educate itself off it. If anything, the public has remained at the same level of stupidity and probably watches Jersey Shore more than MSNBC/CNN/FOX/Etc.

But people say X setup Z to die early, so meh? 50 years?
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Gen X got a lot of things wrong which Gen Y and Gen Z are going to have to deal with. Gotta love Gen X.
 
gettheleadout said:
Because by "rich" he totally isn't referring to multi-millionaires and billionaires paying 15% income tax through loopholes or anything...

:thumbdown:
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no he is labeling ppl who make over 250K as "rich".250K is NOT rich...
:thumbdown:
 
justwant said:
no he is labeling ppl who make over 250K as "rich".250K is NOT rich...
:thumbdown:
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Wow, 250k per year sure seems rich to me. That's five times my family income growing up, and my parents put three kids through college.
 
waht you need 500k for... lol? women?
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haha, they are expensive. I think the OP is hoping that half a mill might compensate for some other deficiencies he/she may have in finding a possible mate.

Girl: What do you bring to the table?
OP: 500k and an ivy league pedigree
Girl: I wanna have your babies.

LOL:)
 
gettheleadout said:
He wasn't saying that in an accusatory way toward physicians, he just meant in general the individual always tries to maximize payment because, well, duh.
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FlowRate said:
Are you asking for a specific answer to an infinitely variable question?
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Sorry if my query came off as being sharp. I just wanted to know if there was a specific example of how doctors "play" the system, which is not something that I support (to anyone out there thinking that I intend to commit Medicare fraud).

fneverforget said:
haha, they are expensive. I think the OP is hoping that half a mill might compensate for some other deficiencies he/she may have in finding a possible mate.

Girl: What do you bring to the table?
OP: 500k and an ivy league pedigree
Girl: I wanna have your babies.

LOL:)
Click to expand...

I think the OP wants to end up on "Millionaire Matchmaker" on Bravo
 
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