How would the outcome of 2008 Presidential Election affect your practice?

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uglyjohn

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"If you were a doctor, how would the outcome of the 2008 Presidential Election affect you and your practice?" That was one of the questions I was asked at an interview and I'd like your take on it. As a future doctor, who would you vote for? Democrat or Republican?

It took me 2-3 minutes to dance around the question 'cuz I tried not to take a side. But I did tell them I don't want to wait months to get a CAT scan and they all smiled knowing perfectly what I meant.

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"If you were a doctor, how would the outcome of the 2008 Presidential Election affect you and your practice?" That was one of the questions I was asked at an interview and I'd like your take on it. As a future doctor, who would you vote for? Democrat or Republican?

It took me 2-3 minutes to get started 'cuz I tried not to take a side. But I did tell them I don't want to wait months to get a CAT scan and they all smiled knowing perfectly what I meant.

oh brother..
 
Realistically, I'd probably feel better taking a hit to my paycheck if I knew I didn't have to tell patients that they can't afford X or Y procedure, but that's just me.

Then again, I'm young and naive. What I am hoping for is that the system has changed enough that it's better in 10 years than what it looks like right now regardless of picking any of the Democratic or Republican proposals. :thumbup:

I'd argue that there are other areas of large spending that moreso affect our ability to manage things here than outside the US.
 
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I heard from a fairly reliable source that if Hilary is elected it's entirely likely the sun will explode....:smuggrin:

lol, I'm kidding, nobody get mad at me!
 
It doesn't matter who gets elected. If the Federal Reserve stays in existence, the healthcare system will suck.
 
I heard from a fairly reliable source that if Hilary is elected it's entirely likely the sun will explode....:smuggrin:

lol, I'm kidding, nobody get mad at me!

dont worry i feel like a lot of people feel the same way!!!
 
I don't think i'm far enough in my education/have enough experience to know how it would affect my actual practice, but for me it would definitely have an affect on whether or not i consider a military scholarship program. There are certain parties i'd be even more reluctant to serve under than i already am.
 
I really don't think that either way (Dem or Rep) that the health care system will change much. Too many people are addicted to the status quo. I've met a couple of doctors who said the same thing. Maybe its just their cynicism rubbing off on me.. ?
 
Whenever somebody -- anybody -- finds out that I am trying to get into medical school and become a doctor, the first thing they ask about is medical liability and lawsuits. My answer to them is that things will be different 8 or 9 years from now, hoping that there will be some sort of medical liability tort law reform. But if a democrat is elected, it will never happen.

Without having to go through everything all over again, just see:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=481428
 
basically, and everyone can hate me for being honest, if you are going into Med to make money, vote republican. If you are going into med to help people without ruining their finances, vote democrat.

the end.

I hope that's not how you would answer the question. You sound like a close-minded fool.
 
I hope that's not how you would answer the question. You sound like a close-minded fool.

what RA said is pretty much true.....whether you choose to say that in an interview or not

although if a democrat was elected its not like doctors wouldnt make money. they will still be more than well off. none of the democrats are even proposing a truly socialized health care system. its not "government pays for everyone no matter what"
 
Whenever somebody -- anybody -- finds out that I am trying to get into medical school and become a doctor, the first thing they ask about is medical liability and lawsuits. My answer to them is that things will be different 8 or 9 years from now, hoping that there will be some sort of medical liability tort law reform. But if a democrat is elected, it will never happen.

Without having to go through everything all over again, just see:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=481428

As the article you reference in the other posts states medical liability reform has had the support of the executive branch and it is democrat senators who have managed to impede the efforts.
 
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As the article you reference in the other posts states medical liability reform has had the support of the executive branch and it is democrat senators who have managed to impede the efforts.

people seem to forget that Presidents don't make laws, they enforce them. Sure they all have some good ideas, but its up to congress to make them law...
 
people seem to forget that Presidents don't make laws, they enforce them. Sure they all have some good ideas, but its up to congress to make them law...
Good point! I totally overlooked this fact maybe because I was caught off guard.
However, I think the President can influence his/her subordinates in congress to legislate according to his/her wishes.
 
Whenever somebody -- anybody -- finds out that I am trying to get into medical school and become a doctor, the first thing they ask about is medical liability and lawsuits. My answer to them is that things will be different 8 or 9 years from now, hoping that there will be some sort of medical liability tort law reform. But if a democrat is elected, it will never happen.

Without having to go through everything all over again, just see:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=481428

Medical tort reform is not going to happen until the public gets behind it. Physicians don't have enough clout to do it on their own. The public just rolls their eyes and proclaims that physicians make enough money, and lawyers are way too powerful. Tort reform will happen when there are so few OB/GYNs around that the average pregnant woman cannot easily find one. They will eventually learn that they have been sued into oblivion. This is beginning to happen, but we are not close enough to a severe OB/GYN shortage for the public to really get it yet.

Tort is not just affecting medicine, it is hurting all businesses. Currently, most companies spend more on defending themselves from predatory lawsuits than they do on R&D. It is highly destructive and unsustainable, basically stifling innovation and creating a very risk adverse atmosphere. Physicians would do well to tie medical tort reform in with tort reform in general, I think.

And I'll have to jump in and agree that it is pretty silly to frame the issue as one of making money vs. helping people. One does not preclude the other, nor does either one determine your party affiliation. What a sophomoric argument. Please grow up.
 
Medical tort reform is not going to happen until the public gets behind it. Physicians don't have enough clout to do it on their own. The public just rolls their eyes and proclaims that physicians make enough money. Tort reform will happen when there are so few OB/GYNs around that the average pregnant woman cannot easily find one. They will eventually learn that they have been sued into oblivion. This is beginning to happen, but we are not close enough to a severe OB/GYN shortage for the public to really get it yet.

Thankfully when choosing residency and site of practice people respond more strongly to disincentives than when choosing to enter medicine in the first place. Personally, I think we need more sympathizers in the national media before any major, universal reform occurs.

And I'll have to jump in and agree that it is pretty silly to frame the issue as one of making money vs. helping people. One does not preclude the other, nor does either one determine your party affiliation. What a sophomoric argument. Please grow up.
 
The president doesn't have subordinates in Congress... that's the whole "separate but equal" thing you may have heard of once upon a time?
 
The president doesn't have subordinates in Congress... that's the whole "separate but equal" thing you may have heard of once upon a time?

That phrase is most closely related to segragation of blacks in the US.

Even wikipedia recognizes that. I guess you were the one not paying attention in history class. :laugh:
 
As the article you reference in the other posts states medical liability reform has had the support of the executive branch and it is democrat senators who have managed to impede the efforts.

Yes, but as you can see in the other post, every single democratic senator voted against medical liability reform. Additionally in the House, most democrats voted against reform and it was Republicans who pushed the legislation through (even though it never passed in the Senate due to democrats' filibustering).

As a logical conclusion, any democratic president would veto any legislation if it did finally make it through the House and Senate.

Originally Posted by Kthanksbye
Medical tort reform is not going to happen until the public gets behind it. Physicians don't have enough clout to do it on their own. The public just rolls their eyes and proclaims that physicians make enough money. Tort reform will happen when there are so few OB/GYNs around that the average pregnant woman cannot easily find one. They will eventually learn that they have been sued into oblivion. This is beginning to happen, but we are not close enough to a severe OB/GYN shortage for the public to really get it yet.

According to the AMA, 72% of the general population is behind medical liability tort reform.
 
Yes, but as you can see in the other post, every single democratic senator voted against medical liability reform. Additionally in the House, most democrats voted against reform and it was Republicans who pushed the legislation through (even though it never passed in the Senate due to democrats' filibustering).

As a logical conclusion, any democratic president would veto any legislation if it did finally make it through the House and Senate.



According to the AMA, 72% of the general population is behind medical liability tort reform.

I'm glad to hear that! I agree that any democrat will not do anything to help medical tort. Edwards claims to be for tort reform, but his proposals are laughable and he made his 92 million dollars suing OB/GYNs in the first place (for bogus reasons supported by junk science, no less). Who is the party out for money vs. the party out to actually help people now?
 
I'm glad to hear that! I agree that any democrat will not do anything to help medical tort. Edwards claims to be for tort reform, but his proposals are laughable and he made his 92 million dollars suing OB/GYNs in the first place (for bogus reasons supported by junk science, no less). Who is the party out for money vs. the party out to actually help people now?

:clap:
 
I'm glad to hear that! I agree that any democrat will not do anything to help medical tort. Edwards claims to be for tort reform, but his proposals are laughable and he made his 92 million dollars suing OB/GYNs in the first place (for bogus reasons supported by junk science, no less). Who is the party out for money vs. the party out to actually help people now?

:thumbup:

Nothing is black and white in politics, though. All politics is dirty and subject to significant financial temptations that bias their actions. Just a matter of deciding who you think would push for the policies you care most about and whose competing interests you find least reprehensible.
 
can someone breifly explain what medical liability tort reform is?
 
can someone breifly explain what medical liability tort reform is?

C'mon man, do some research. Wikipedia is your friend (and a decent starting place).

Interesting quote: "For every dollar spent on compensation, 54 cents went to administrative expenses (including lawyers, experts, and courts)"
 
It won't affect your practice at all, since you'll be in medical school until 2012, and will have internship and residency for at least the next 3+ years. :)

That being said, checks and balances will prevent any one candidate from making unilateral changes, and lobbying will prevent sweeping changes in health care provision.
 
A few things to think about.

If doctor's salaries decrease, with tuition decrease? If tuition does not decrease, will this defer people? If it does not how are doctors going to effectively pay off their loans.

Also, I agree that everyone having healthcare is ideal, but the logistics of it are often overlooked. How are the current # of doctors going to be able to give effective care to an extra 50 million patients? Will this happen by working more and being paid less? Is the answer to this doctor shortage to let more people into medical school and graduate more doctors annually? But would doing this meaning that underqualified people will be let in and graduating? Would this result in underqualified doctors and a worse healthcare system in 20 years because of underqualified people caring for others?

I'm just playing the devil's advocate here and pointing out it isn't as clear cut as some of you would like to assume
 
A few things to think about.

If doctor's salaries decrease, with tuition decrease? If tuition does not decrease, will this defer people? If it does not how are doctors going to effectively pay off their loans.

Unfortunately, this isn't likely, tuition is outpacing inflation. A tuition freeze is possible, but not likely. And there is nothing about universal coverage that requires a reduction in salary.

Also, I agree that everyone having healthcare is ideal, but the logistics of it are often overlooked. How are the current # of doctors going to be able to give effective care to an extra 50 million patients?

There aren't any additional patients; the only difference is that 50 million self-pay patients will become 50 million third-party payer patients. Clinicians already see these patients; they just tend not to pay their bills. Additionally, there is the chance that the number of visits and/or level of care could be reduced, as preventative treatment requires less resources and time than acute care.

twick121 said:
Will this happen by working more and being paid less? Is the answer to this doctor shortage to let more people into medical school and graduate more doctors annually? But would doing this meaning that underqualified people will be let in and graduating?

Not necessarily - there are many people who are qualified who aren't admitted to any of the schools to which they've applied. If people are genuinely unqualified, they will be weeded out by USMLE and residency.

twick121 said:
Would this result in underqualified doctors and a worse healthcare system in 20 years because of underqualified people caring for others?

Probably not. There are a lot of debatable assumptions made in the argument you've proposed.
 
C'mon man, do some research. Wikipedia is your friend (and a decent starting place).

Interesting quote: "For every dollar spent on compensation, 54 cents went to administrative expenses (including lawyers, experts, and courts)"

fair enough. i underestimate the power of wikipedia and its ability to answer every question :) i should have thought of it (not a sarcastic comment)
 
I think a democratic vicotry would help doctors.

There are two major financial problems that affect doctors today:

1) Malpractice

2) Patients who can't pay their bills but recieve treatment anyway (whether treating these patients is a chairitable act or federally mandated).

The Republicans have shown, both at a state level and when they controlled the federal government, that they're just as unwilling as Democrats to do anything about problem #1. However the Democrats have shown, at least at the state level, that they are capable of doing something about problem #2. A mandate that you must have health insurance, much the way that people in floodzones must have flood insurance or drivers must have car insurance, is the best hope for an increase in both the quality of care that doctors can provide and the rewards for health care providers.
 
A few things to think about.

If doctor's salaries decrease, with tuition decrease? If tuition does not decrease, will this defer people? If it does not how are doctors going to effectively pay off their loans.

Also, I agree that everyone having healthcare is ideal, but the logistics of it are often overlooked. How are the current # of doctors going to be able to give effective care to an extra 50 million patients? Will this happen by working more and being paid less? Is the answer to this doctor shortage to let more people into medical school and graduate more doctors annually? But would doing this meaning that underqualified people will be let in and graduating? Would this result in underqualified doctors and a worse healthcare system in 20 years because of underqualified people caring for others?

I'm just playing the devil's advocate here and pointing out it isn't as clear cut as some of you would like to assume

if we change to a universal-esque health care system i think one of th keys will be to produce more primary care physicians and move away from the trend of more and more docs going into specialties. except for the DO schools, you dont really see a majority of primary care physicians graduating. i dont think that is say-all-end-all solution, but it will need to be a part of it and it will certainly help with the extra 50 milion.
 
I think a democratic vicotry would help doctors.

There are two major financial problems that affect doctors today:

1) Malpractice

2) Patients who can't pay their bills but recieve treatment anyway (whether treating these patients is a chairitable act or federally mandated).

The Republicans have shown, both at a state level and when they controlled the federal government, that they're just as unwilling as Democrats to do anything about problem #1. However the Democrats have shown, at least at the state level, that they are capable of doing something about problem #2. A mandate that you must have health insurance, much the way that people in floodzones must have flood insurance or drivers must have car insurance, is the best hope for an increase in both the quality of care that doctors can provide and the rewards for health care providers.

You mean what happened in Mass under Mitt Romney :laugh:
 
if we change to a universal-esque health care system i think one of th keys will be to produce more primary care physicians and move away from the trend of more and more docs going into specialties. except for the DO schools, you dont really see a majority of primary care physicians graduating. i dont think that is say-all-end-all solution, but it will need to be a part of it and it will certainly help with the extra 50 milion.

I see midlevels taking on primary care more. I'm not sure we are ever going to go back to a model of care where MDs are the only primary caregivers. The economic incentives are not there and I don't think this is likely to change. I'm not qualified to say, but Iwouldn't be surprised if PA's were more than capable of handling most primary care patients (as they already do is some parts of the US). I see physicians ceding primary care over time.
 
You mean what happened in Mass under Mitt Romney

I was thinking of CA, but you're right that Romney created a similar system. And it was very effective in addressing the issue of patients recieving care without paying.
 
I was thinking of CA, but you're right that Romney created a similar system. And it was very effective in addressing the issue of patients recieving care without paying.

I'm not sure how you can say that it was very effective, since this is the first year that the mandate goes into effect in Mass. No one knows yet how effective this program will be, and it is already encountering significant problems. All eyes are on Mass to see how this will play out, but no one knows just yet.


There are a lot of problems with forcing people to buy insurance. There are sometimes good reasons why people don't have insurance...because they don't want it. The way that the number of "uninsured Americans" is calculated leaves much to be desired. They count everyone as "uninsured" if they lack insurance for a few weeks, which means I would be counted since when I switched insurance, I went without for about a month. The numbers are made to be large and scary. But why force people to buy something they don't want? The main problem with this is that it is a huge boon to the insurance companies, which already have too much power in the health care process, in my opinion. Suddenly, they have a government mandated product. This would make insurance reform next to impossible. (Contrary to popular opinion, forcing people to buy insurance does nothing to reform the insurance industry). Many of the uninsured are young and healthy, and don't necessarily need insurance, even if it would be prudent to get some. Why mandate that people be prudent? Doesn't it fall on the insurance companies to convince people that they need to buy their products? Here, read this from the WSJ:

"the nation's 47 million uninsured are not as bad a risk as is commonly assumed. Census Bureau data reveal that the uninsured are actually the kind of demographic that consumer product companies dream about. A surprising 85% of the nation's uninsured are currently employed and nearly all have worked in the past year. They are young -- almost half are between the ages of 18 and 34 -- and nearly three-quarters of the uninsured describe their health as "excellent" or "very good." More than two-thirds have at least some college education and about half earn middle-class incomes."

Of course there is a lot of political pressure to mandate that this group buys insurance, there is a lot of money to be had. I'm not convinced that it would create the health care improvements that people assume it would, however, and I would prefer to seem some actual reform of the industry that allows companies to sell to the individual more easily. This would involve major changes to the tax code that currently favor employer purchased insurance over individual insurance, a topic that is forgotten when the government mandates that everyone buy the product.
 
I'm not sure how you can say that it was very effective, since this is the first year that the mandate goes into effect in Mass. No one knows yet how effective this program will be, and it is already encountering significant problems. All eyes are on Mass to see how this will play out, but no one knows just yet.


There are a lot of problems with forcing people to buy insurance. There are sometimes good reasons why people don't have insurance...because they don't want it. The way that the number of "uninsured Americans" is calculated leaves much to be desired. They count everyone as "uninsured" if they lack insurance for a few weeks, which means I would be counted since when I switched insurance, I went without for about a month. The numbers are made to be large and scary. But why force people to buy something they don't want? The main problem with this is that it is a huge boon to the insurance companies, which already have too much power in the health care process, in my opinion. Suddenly, they have a government mandated product. This would make insurance reform next to impossible. (Contrary to popular opinion, forcing people to buy insurance does nothing to reform the insurance industry). Many of the uninsured are young and healthy, and don't necessarily need insurance, even if it would be prudent to get some. Why mandate that people be prudent? Doesn't it fall on the insurance companies to convince people that they need to buy their products? Here, read this from the WSJ:

"the nation's 47 million uninsured are not as bad a risk as is commonly assumed. Census Bureau data reveal that the uninsured are actually the kind of demographic that consumer product companies dream about. A surprising 85% of the nation's uninsured are currently employed and nearly all have worked in the past year. They are young -- almost half are between the ages of 18 and 34 -- and nearly three-quarters of the uninsured describe their health as "excellent" or "very good." More than two-thirds have at least some college education and about half earn middle-class incomes."

Of course there is a lot of political pressure to mandate that this group buys insurance, there is a lot of money to be had. I'm not convinced that it would create the health care improvements that people assume it would, however, and I would prefer to seem some actual reform of the industry that allows companies to sell to the individual more easily. This would involve major changes to the tax code that currently favor employer purchased insurance over individual insurance, a topic that is forgotten when the government mandates that everyone buy the product.

Do you by any chance have a link to the full-text of this article?
 
If a republican wins, my practice will be located in Canada.
 
I see midlevels taking on primary care more. I'm not sure we are ever going to go back to a model of care where MDs are the only primary caregivers. The economic incentives are not there and I don't think this is likely to change. I'm not qualified to say, but Iwouldn't be surprised if PA's were more than capable of handling most primary care patients (as they already do is some parts of the US). I see physicians ceding primary care over time.

i dont think its necessary for MDs to be the only primary caregivers, but it would sure help if we had more of them going into the field. interesting opinion about the PAs taking over....it could happen
 
The main reason that you force people to buy insurance when they don't want it is so that others don't have to pick up the costs when they end up getting sick and start regretting their decision. The cost of a serious long term illness isn't something that savings or home equity can counter: it's going to cost hundreds of thousands if not millions if you're part of the unlucky 1% that gets seriously ill during your working years. That's a value higher than the assets of all but the richest few percent of the nation. When someone faces a serious illness either they're going to have someone else cover their expenses or they're going to die.

I must admit that I am not 100% against the idea of requiring everyone to have insurance.

Of course, not having insurance would still be a reasonable financial risk if we were willing to actually let these people die when they couldn't afford care. However you will be hard pressed to find an ER that turns out a gunshot victim or Cancer patient onto the street because he can't afford his care (if only because such compassion is legally mandated). The uninsured victim therefore gets his thousands worth of care, and unless he has assets that can be auctioned the hospital eats the cost. Ultimately this means that the paying, insured customers eat the cost, either through higher procedure costs (and higher insurance premiums) or a lower quality of care. The ultimate result of this is that when you have facilities like Grady in Atlanta, which handle high volumes of uninsured patients, the costs pile up and hospital is in constant risk of shutting down.
It is not just ERs which provide pro bono care. All physicians have a certain percentage of patients which they will never be able to get payment from. Hospitals do not have the power to force people to sell their assets. They generally give the bill to a collection agency or drop it altogether.

We are (rightly) not willing to let people die because of lack of insurance when we have the facilities available to heal them, and no one wants to pay for someone else's negligence, so for the financial security of the community we make everyone get insurance. We don't mandate what kind of insurance, as long as it covers major medical, but they have to pay for it, if only so that I don't have to pay for it. It's what we already do with car insurance, with flood insurance in flood zones, and it makes sense for medical insurance as well.
Actually, they do mandate what kind of insurance, and this is where much of the problem lies. Insurance companies are forced to provide certain "baseline" coverage, which generally pushes up the premiums. The only state that requires insurance so far is Mass., and the comparison to car insurance is instructive in that state. Currently, car insurance is such a corrupt racket in Mass. that none of the major players in the country operate in that state, the insurance is extremely expensive and mandated by government. If health insurance becomes as corrupt in a state with a history of insurance corruption, that could signal major problems for the rest of the country that wants to follow suit.

For those who follow this sort of thing there already is an example of a National healthcare mandate (as opposed to socialized healthcare): the French. Highly paid physicians, reasonable cost of care, one of the highest qualities of healthcare in the world, no long waits to see a doctor, and an exteremely healthy population.
Lets hope we can do better than the French.
 
The way that the number of "uninsured Americans" is calculated leaves much to be desired. They count everyone as "uninsured" if they lack insurance for a few weeks, which means I would be counted since when I switched insurance, I went without for about a month.

This is incorrect. You are counted as uninsured if you are surveyed and report no coverage for the previous calendar year. The most commonly acknowledged error is an underreporting of Medicaid coverage.

Kthanksbye said:
The numbers are made to be large and scary.

The numbers are large and scary... and they're growing.
 
The main reason that you force people to buy insurance when they don't want it is so that others don't have to pick up the costs when they end up getting sick and start regretting their decision.

The main reason to force people to buy insurance is so that older people who are likely to get sick and need insurance don't have high insurance premiums. Forcing people who don't need or want insurance to buy it is a way of subsidizing the premiums of people who do need it. It's kind of like social security and medicare taxes.

I'm on the fence about whether this is a good idea or not. I think it's a horrible idea if insurance companies are not more effectively regulated and people are forced to buy sucky policies.

Of course, not having insurance would still be a reasonable financial risk if we were willing to actually let these people die when they couldn't afford care. However you will be hard pressed to find an ER that turns out a gunshot victim or Cancer patient onto the street because he can't afford his care (if only because such compassion is legally mandated). The uninsured victim therefore gets his thousands worth of care, and unless he has assets that can be auctioned the hospital eats the cost. Ultimately this means that the paying, insured customers eat the cost, either through higher procedure costs (and higher insurance premiums) or a lower quality of care. The ultimate result of this is that when you have facilities like Grady in Atlanta, which handle high volumes of uninsured patients, the costs pile up and hospital is in constant risk of shutting down.

It is interesting that there are no health policies for young people that are like life insurance policies. You can buy life insurance at $20 per month for a $1million policy. In the health arena, this would cover most people for catastrophic or long-term health care. Most young people don't need health insurance at $300-700 per month when they could easily see their doctor every week and pay for it themselves for the same price.
 
The main reason that you force people to buy insurance when they don't want it is so that others don't have to pick up the costs when they end up getting sick and start regretting their decision. The cost of a serious long term illness isn't something that savings or home equity can counter: it's going to cost hundreds of thousands if not millions if you're part of the unlucky 1% that gets seriously ill during your working years. That's a value higher than the assets of all but the richest few percent of the nation. When someone faces a serious illness either they're going to have someone else cover their expenses or they're going to die.

Of course, not having insurance would still be a reasonable financial risk if we were willing to actually let these people die when they couldn't afford care. However you will be hard pressed to find an ER that turns out a gunshot victim or Cancer patient onto the street because he can't afford his care (if only because such compassion is legally mandated). The uninsured victim therefore gets his thousands worth of care, and unless he has assets that can be auctioned the hospital eats the cost. Ultimately this means that the paying, insured customers eat the cost, either through higher procedure costs (and higher insurance premiums) or a lower quality of care. The ultimate result of this is that when you have facilities like Grady in Atlanta, which handle high volumes of uninsured patients, the costs pile up and hospital is in constant risk of shutting down.

We are (rightly) not willing to let people die because of lack of insurance when we have the facilities available to heal them, and no one wants to pay for someone else's negligence, so for the financial security of the community we make everyone get insurance. We don't mandate what kind of insurance, as long as it covers major medical, but they have to pay for it, if only so that I don't have to pay for it. It's what we already do with car insurance, with flood insurance in flood zones, and it makes sense for medical insurance as well.

For those who follow this sort of thing there already is an example of a National healthcare mandate (as opposed to socialized healthcare): the French. Highly paid physicians, reasonable cost of care, one of the highest qualities of healthcare in the world, no long waits to see a doctor, and an exteremely healthy population.

Uh.. this is simply not true. Remember Edith Rodriguez, who was vomiting blood and literally collapsed in the ER on the floor, and no one paid any attention-- video shows a cleaning woman sweeping the floor around her, cleaning up her vomit, but doing nothing to hep her. A fellow patient waiting in the ER was disturbed enough that she called 911 to try to get help for her-- as hospital staff were unresponsive to her attempts to get help. Then the 911 operator of course hung up on the woman, after finding out she's calling about a woman already in an ER. Edith died of something completely treatable.

Then there's 17-year-old Nataline Sarkisyan who couldn't afford a liver transplant because her insurance company for the longest time wanted to label it an "experimental procedure". Her parents led protests that eventually overturned that decision.. but that change came too late and Nataline died not too long after. It was a completely preventable death of a girl coming into her prime.


Point is, this kind of thing is a routine occurance. We're lying to ourselves if we think that the uninsured (or even the insured) aren't routinely refused care... oftentimes with fatal results.

Granted, having universal coverage is not entirely like having a panacea for this "epidemic of apathy"... but for the financially motivated, I would think that it would definitely go a ways toward eliminating the incentive to withhold care from patients who desperate need it.
 
Uh.. this is simply not true. Remember Edith Rodriguez, who was vomiting blood and literally collapsed in the ER on the floor, and no one paid any attention-- video shows a cleaning woman sweeping the floor around her, cleaning up her vomit, but doing nothing to hep her. A fellow patient waiting in the ER was disturbed enough that she called 911 to try to get help for her-- as hospital staff were unresponsive to her attempts to get help. Then the 911 operator of course hung up on the woman, after finding out she's calling about a woman already in an ER. Edith died of something completely treatable.

Then there's 17-year-old Nataline Sarkisyan who couldn't afford a liver transplant because her insurance company for the longest time wanted to label it an "experimental procedure". Her parents led protests that eventually overturned that decision.. but that change came too late and Nataline died not too long after. It was a completely preventable death of a girl coming into her prime.


Point is, this kind of thing is a routine occurance. We're lying to ourselves if we think that the uninsured (or even the insured) aren't routinely refused care... oftentimes with fatal results.

Granted, having universal coverage is not entirely like having a panacea for this "epidemic of apathy"... but for the financially motivated, I would think that it would definitely go a ways toward eliminating the incentive to withhold care from patients who desperate need it.

You are totally exaggerating. What you are describing is by no means the norm. These are not routine occurrences by any stretch of the imagination. People in America are not "routinely refused care". These stories make headlines precisely because they are unusual.
 
I'm not sure how you can say that it was very effective, since this is the first year that the mandate goes into effect in Mass. No one knows yet how effective this program will be, and it is already encountering significant problems. All eyes are on Mass to see how this will play out, but no one knows just yet.


There are a lot of problems with forcing people to buy insurance. There are sometimes good reasons why people don't have insurance...because they don't want it. The way that the number of "uninsured Americans" is calculated leaves much to be desired. They count everyone as "uninsured" if they lack insurance for a few weeks, which means I would be counted since when I switched insurance, I went without for about a month.

Wrong. The CPS is intended to estimate the number of people who go uninsured for the entire year. As Gut Shot suggested there is a problem with recall, since the survey asks people to remember an entire year. Nevertheless, there is some evidence that the CB overstimates the uninsured who lack insurance for the entire year by 4-9 million. However, the CPS is the only current estimate that has a sufficiently large sample size and represents all 50 states.

In reality the CPS is much closer to point-in-time estimates which show how many people lack insurance at any given time. If anyone who lacked insurance during the year was counted as you are suggesting the number would be >65 million per year. In any case, gaps in insurance and unstable insurance coverage presents a significant problem even if your example of suggesting people who've only lackedcoverage for 2 weeks in their life minimizes this concern.

The numbers are made to be large and scary. But why force people to buy something they don't want? The main problem with this is that it is a huge boon to the insurance companies, which already have too much power in the health care process, in my opinion. Suddenly, they have a government mandated product. This would make insurance reform next to impossible. (Contrary to popular opinion, forcing people to buy insurance does nothing to reform the insurance industry). Many of the uninsured are young and healthy, and don't necessarily need insurance, even if it would be prudent to get some. Why mandate that people be prudent? Doesn't it fall on the insurance companies to convince people that they need to buy their products? Here, read this from the WSJ:

"the nation's 47 million uninsured are not as bad a risk as is commonly assumed. Census Bureau data reveal that the uninsured are actually the kind of demographic that consumer product companies dream about. A surprising 85% of the nation's uninsured are currently employed and nearly all have worked in the past year. They are young -- almost half are between the ages of 18 and 34 -- and nearly three-quarters of the uninsured describe their health as "excellent" or "very good." More than two-thirds have at least some college education and about half earn middle-class incomes."

That article is a joke that anyone could've written with access to CPS data and 10 minutes of time. It lacks any context or real analysis. The uninsured have been increasing every year. Instead of linking that fact to the idea that every year less people want insurance it would be more reasonable to link it to the increasing cost of healthcare, the decreasing availability of stable jobs with good benefits and the difficulty and cost of entering the individual insurance market. These factors make it harder and harder for people to prioritize insurance or simply afford it. The effects are not limited to those who go uninsured anyway as the economic cost of uninsurance spills over to everyone else in the healthcare system.

Of course there is a lot of political pressure to mandate that this group buys insurance, there is a lot of money to be had. I'm not convinced that it would create the health care improvements that people assume it would, however, and I would prefer to seem some actual reform of the industry that allows companies to sell to the individual more easily. This would involve major changes to the tax code that currently favor employer purchased insurance over individual insurance, a topic that is forgotten when the government mandates that everyone buy the product.

Without reform to insurance eligibility this idea would not go over well. Limiting and fragmenting risk pools only contributes to one thing: insurance companies profits.
 
Point is, this kind of thing is a routine occurance. We're lying to ourselves if we think that the uninsured (or even the insured) aren't routinely refused care... oftentimes with fatal results.

Granted, having universal coverage is not entirely like having a panacea for this "epidemic of apathy"... but for the financially motivated, I would think that it would definitely go a ways toward eliminating the incentive to withhold care from patients who desperate need it.

Don't get me wrong, I would support a health care mandate on moral ground alone. Everyone should have health insurance, in the same way that every child should have an education, and the uninsured who we do take care of definitely recienve a lower quality of care than those who can pay for their treatment. However this argument tends to leave the traditional antagonists of health care reform unmoved, so I focused on the argument that it also makes good financial sense for everyone affect by the law; including the healthy taxpayers and the health care providers. After all, how many people would protest everyone having healthcare if it actually saved them money?
 
if Obama wins ---> lower pay?
 
basically, and everyone can hate me for being honest, if you are going into Med to make money, vote republican. If you are going into med to help people without ruining their finances, vote democrat.

the end.


You have yet a lot to learn about medicine and politics.
 
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