How's Loma Linda?

[jdh71]

My worries stem from their ability to forge physicians who are able to relate to the diverse situations their patients may present them with.

you have no clue, wait until you get out to county 3rd year.

honestly, what do you think happens in medical school? do you know what you're signing up for?

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[jdh71]

So if you ever find yourself a patient at a 7th Day Adventist hospital, be warned that your meals, beyond the usual hospital food quality, will be vegetarian.

Again . . . WRONG. Patiets get meals with meat.

Where are you people coming up with this stuff?

 

[jdh71]

I read in a thread that over 90% of classmates are devout Christians. Even if you are accepted, it is going to be tough to have colleagues who think that most of their textbooks are BS (like genetics-->evolution). Personally, I think that this school has illegal practices. Private institution or not, when you are discriminating by religion, you are violating the law. Given the competitiveness of CA med schools, it is frustrating to see that this school, which is a misfit for a liberal state like CA, takes up precious school space. I wish there was another med school instead of it or that SDA meant "Soap and Detergent Association."

Before any of you devouts start a crusade here, ask yourself how would you feel if there was a medical school that accepted 90% atheists and left the other 10% for agnostics and other religions. There would be a real crusade. I'll add count two: hypocrisy charge.

We are not even required to submit information about our religion. I bet LL would reject the vast majority of such applicants, assuming it even allows to skip the religion question.

We're in the 21st century. Separation of state and church occurred a long time ago. Why we have a vestigial school that is homogeneous with religion right here in CA is perplexing. It feels to be equivalent to a science school that advocates Scientology. What an oxymoron.

You cry more than anyone. Get a grip man. You've set up more strawmen in one post than I've seen in a long time. You probably deserve some sort of award. One's particular stance in regards to origin has no bearing on the objective study of genetics as it relates to medicine.

And no, I wouldn't care if a bunch of atheists wanted to start their own exclusive school. The only person who really cares is you.

 

[jdh71]

This is a ridiculous statement for so many reasons. Just because California is a liberal state does not mean that religious denominations don't have the right to provide education for Church members that is consistent with their particular beliefs. Loma Linda is accredited and therefore adequately train new physicians, at least up to US standards. Whatever else they provide/require in the curriculum is up to the SDAs to decide. And, despite the California location, as a private school, it is not technically a "CA med school." They don't OWE you a spot just because you are a CA resident. It's not like the state of California set aside so many medical school spots 100 years ago and gave a fraction to Loma Linda so that they may exclude non-SDA students like you or me.

Yes, but "State" is not really involved here, now is it? And how is a medical school which emphasizes the Christian values of service, caring, and compassion "vestigial?"

 

[jdh71]

"people like me" means students who are atheists. I am sorry if that sounds like an entitlement. "We" don't even have our school, so we must not be as entitled after all. I know that the conservatives would make such a big deal out of a school that denied admission to Christians that it would shut down due to ethical or financial reasons.

As I said, there isn't much else I can add. You keep mixing religion and education. Yes, accreditation is part of education as well. If LL teaches something extra, it should have a different accreditation, even if it meets all MD standards. If it doesn't teach anything extra (which is not the case), then it shouldn't have the right to discriminate based on religion.

You are welcome to substitute Nazi's with extremists, eugenicists, utopians, or whatever else makes you more comfortable. I used them because most people can identify with what I meant by that example vs using something more arcane. Why can't you put yourself in others' shoes as well? Please, understand that if Nazi's are repulsive to you, SDAs might be repulsive to others. Also, I do not have anything against SDAs or Christians (I was one for 16 years, since birth). My problem is mixing religion with scientific education.

It is unlikely that I will apply to LL, but that is irrelevant. As for the school taking up no space, I think that if the given state has a certain number of med schools, there will be less incentive to build more because a certain number of "same" schools already exists. This is how a religious school can take a spot (not just in a state, but in the entire country).

Please, keep and practice your religion. I happily condone it because I know that religion is very important since it comforts many people and keeps others in check, but for Christ's sake, keep it out of the educational system.


Ok. This is enough. I am sorry if anyone got offended. If you read carefully, you'll see that I don't have any issues with religion. My frustration is with the ideology of creating the schools...

No one got offended, you merely fail so hard it's not even funny anymore.

Your total lack of insight is disturbing to say the least

 

[jdh71]

There are many pedagogical, ethical and legal issues that come up in this thread.

What is of importance here however is the fact that Loma Linda is essentially asking the student to give up some rights (some of which are constitutionally protected) in order to gain admission to the program.

The comparisons between Loma Linda and Jesuit schools are simply false. A Jesuit hospital may very well have the right to not perform abortions. But that does not mean that said institution is going to reprimand a student for choosing to have an abortion. Likewise if Yeshiva chooses to shut down its libraries because they are observant as an institution fine. But forcing me to not study (or anything else) during Saturday and force me to attend services is a completely different story.

Furthermore, schools should (and usually) ask questions that specifically relate to the potential performance of the candidate if admitted to said program (or the overall mission of the program). The same goes for employers of course. I fail to see the connection between performance as a student or a practising professional and pre-marital sex. Let alone that I am leaving out the pedagogical, moral and psychological implications of forcing students in a rigorous science to follow a rigorous (and irrational imo) honour code.

Bottom line: asking others to give up their right to privacy and the right to live their lives as they please (provided that they don't intentionally hurt others) is wrong in any way you see it and simply saying "its a private institution don't apply there if you don't think you can follow through" is also wrong in a variety of different levels.

Haha - you FAIL hard too. No one is taking away your rights through force or fraud, least of all Loma Linda.

I'm beginning to suspect sour grapes . . . on many accounts . . .

 

[Katatonic]

Wow, how in the world did this perfectly legitimate thread descend into such disgusting, unapologetic ignorance?

Live and let live, people. Being atheist scientists does not, believe it or not, give you the right to insult other people's Faith. I shudder at the thought of you treating a religious person- would you ignore his/her wishes because you disagree with them? You talk of being objective, meanwhile here you are calling a perfectly legitimate religious affiliation a "cult". I am absolutely appalled at the idea that there will be physicians like you out there. You don't like it? Don't apply. If you're bitter cause you're a CA resident and can't get in anywhere, go OOS. Seriously, just shut up.

You're right, being an Atheist in itself does not give me the right to insult others religious beliefs. However, living in America DOES give me that right. I completely agree with you however that if you don't like LL's policies, just don't apply! They're a private institution, so they can have some off-the-wall policies if they'd like. The only time when I throw a red flag is when those policies spill over into training less-qualified physicians or putting patients at risk. So far, I've detected nothing in the curriculum that would suggest either of those.

It's about choice. I will not go to a med school that has certain policies I disagree with (not prescribing birth control, not performing abortions, etc.) because I believe those are important parts of healthcare and treating a patient in need.

And although you shudder at the thought of them treating religious patients, it IS possible for an Atheist who thinks religions are cults to compassionately treat someone who is religious. It involves tact and sensitivity. Would it also involve lying? Maybe, it depends on the situation.

 

[jdh71]

You're right, being an Atheist in itself does not give me the right to insult others religious beliefs. However, living in America DOES give me that right. I completely agree with you however that if you don't like LL's policies, just don't apply! They're a private institution, so they can have some off-the-wall policies if they'd like. The only time when I throw a red flag is when those policies spill over into training less-qualified physicians or putting patients at risk. So far, I've detected nothing in the curriculum that would suggest either of those.

It's because they don't exist - the standardized clinical skills test given in California to all the california medical school, including UCSF, Stanford, UCLA, USC, and UCSD, has Loma Linda coming out ahead every single year. Those schools ask Loma Linda what's it doing.

Step scores coming out of Loma Linda average BETTER than the national average - now this mostly reflects the test taker's personal and individual preparation, but some of you think it's important . . . and I would argue would be a tough task to pull off if your entire curriculum were crap.

People form Loma Linda match ALL over the country and into competitive residencies, including derm, ophthal, rads, ortho, neuro surg, etc. Resident's from Loma Linda are notorious for being known as workhorses, and once you've been through their program you'll understand why.

And although you shudder at the thought of them treating religious patients, it IS possible for an Atheist who thinks religions are cults to compassionately treat someone who is religious. It involves tact and sensitivity. Would it also involve lying? Maybe, it depends on the situation.

Why would an atheist have to lie when treating a religious patient? Practicing medicine requires zero belief in God. Much the same way, you don't have to believe evolution explains the origin or Life, the Universe, and Everything to practice medicine.

 

[LucidSplash]

Again . . . WRONG. Patiets get meals with meat.

Where are you people coming up with this stuff?

Well, this was from my experience when my spouse was a patient at an SDA hospital in Maryland. There was no meat in the cafeteria or in the meals served to patients, and we were informed that this was because most SDA institutions do not serve meat. So if my statement was incorrect, I apologize, as I was misinformed by an SDA hospital administrator.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Is it true that if I knock my gf up while i'm at LLU I would be kicked out of school?

Someone said something of that sort earlier in the thread but it sounds like the posters who have now arrived in the thread think LLU is not so strict.

Oh, and is it true you can't drink during your time at the school?

 

[tiedyeddog]

I am sure that if I could prove that I got rejected from any school based only on my religious beliefs, I would win the case.

Wow, you really don't understand what "private institution" means, do you?

 

[Chrishel]

Wow, you really don't understand what "private institution" means, do you?

Any institution that receives millions a year in federal grants is not private in my book!

 

[Katatonic]

It's because they don't exist - the standardized clinical skills test given in California to all the california medical school, including UCSF, Stanford, UCLA, USC, and UCSD, has Loma Linda coming out ahead every single year. Those schools ask Loma Linda what's it doing.

Step scores coming out of Loma Linda average BETTER than the national average - now this mostly reflects the test taker's personal and individual preparation, but some of you think it's important . . . and I would argue would be a tough task to pull off if your entire curriculum were crap.

People form Loma Linda match ALL over the country and into competitive residencies, including derm, ophthal, rads, ortho, neuro surg, etc. Resident's from Loma Linda are notorious for being known as workhorses, and once you've been through their program you'll understand why.



Why would an atheist have to lie when treating a religious patient? Practicing medicine requires zero belief in God. Much the same way, you don't have to believe evolution explains the origin or Life, the Universe, and Everything to practice medicine.

I completely agree with what you said in the first part. The reason I mentioned having to lie to a patient is because I've often wondered how I would react to a dying patient, or dying child, asking me if I believe in a God, or if they'll be going to a better place when they die. Of course I don't think they're going to a better place, but why would I want to cause a child such emotional pain by telling them the truth? I'd find it much more ethical for me personally to either skillfully evade the question with a vague answer, or simply tell them "Yes, when this is all over there won't be any pain and you'll be in a wonderful place." If they're going to die anyway, I wouldn't want to cause them undue stress or emotional grievance on their deathbed, especially a child. There's a time and a place to actually explain my beliefs, but at work is NOT one of those places. That's how I feel anyway.

 

[Textuality]

If your SDA, then apply, and have fun.
If you're not, then don't.

You're entitled to your opinions about drinking, premarital sex etc, but if your opinions don't match up with the school, then don't apply. You can feel free to love or hate the school and its policies as you see fit, it's certainly in your right to think they're entirely screwball...and if that's the case, don't apply. I CERTAINLY didn't even consider applying for a second seeing how I'm agnostic and have a strong personal dislike of organized religion (probably cause they keep telling me that I'm going to hell...oh well, hehe)

As long as the school is producing good physicians, I'm fine with living and let live even though I completely disagree with their principles.

To be honest, I can kind of see why such a school exists. Most of the premeds I know are atheist/agnostic/or non practicing (and do their fair share of drinking, copulating, and meat eating), and a strict SDA or very devout Christian might feel very out of place, and would probably be ostracized if they strongly voiced their belief that Christ should be a part of medicine.

 

[bcat85]

If your SDA, then apply, and have fun.
If you're not, then don't.

You're entitled to your opinions about drinking, premarital sex etc, but if your opinions don't match up with the school, then don't apply. You can feel free to love or hate the school and its policies as you see fit, it's certainly in your right to think they're entirely screwball...and if that's the case, don't apply.

Holy crap how hard is it for everyone else to understand this? This thread is like a carwreck I can't look away from. Text, thanks for being the voice of reason here. This is the way I feel about it too. In the same way that, because I'm a Christian, I applied and chose to go to a Christian medical school and not somewhere like AECOM (which is Jewish), why is it so hard to grasp this: If you don't want to do what they want you to do, good Lord, don't apply there. If you want an atheist-esque education, go to a public medical school.

 

[Excelsius]

You cry more than anyone. Get a grip man. You've set up more strawmen in one post than I've seen in a long time. You probably deserve some sort of award. One's particular stance in regards to origin has no bearing on the objective study of genetics as it relates to medicine.

And no, I wouldn't care if a bunch of atheists wanted to start their own exclusive school. The only person who really cares is you.

You are right. That's called denial. And sure you wouldn't mind an atheist school. Neither would the rest of the country's devouts. Right. Look at the presidents of the US. Do you think an atheist would ever have a chance? We are in this ****hole because in 2000 religion dominated the elections. It is a slap int he face when someone like you says that it doesn't matter whether a person or an institution is atheistic or religious. It is also bull**** to say that just because someone is devout, aka the bush, that makes him somehow kinder and of higher moral standard. Maybe you personally don't have the same exact beliefs, but many devouts in this country do. Don't get me started...

It's because they don't exist - the standardized clinical skills test given in California to all the california medical school, including UCSF, Stanford, UCLA, USC, and UCSD, has Loma Linda coming out ahead every single year. Those schools ask Loma Linda what's it doing.

Step scores coming out of Loma Linda average BETTER than the national average - now this mostly reflects the test taker's personal and individual preparation, but some of you think it's important . . . and I would argue would be a tough task to pull off if your entire curriculum were crap.

People form Loma Linda match ALL over the country and into competitive residencies, including derm, ophthal, rads, ortho, neuro surg, etc. Resident's from Loma Linda are notorious for being known as workhorses, and once you've been through their program you'll understand why.

Why would an atheist have to lie when treating a religious patient? Practicing medicine requires zero belief in God. Much the same way, you don't have to believe evolution explains the origin or Life, the Universe, and Everything to practice medicine.

Really? So UCSF, Stanford, and all other CA schools "ask Loma Linda what's it's doing"? Interesting. Do you care to elaborate? Exactly what are they "asking"? What are your sources?

CA is a competitive state. Being above national average is true for many schools. Average is just that. Likely means that close to 50% of schools are above it and 50% below it. Same thing goes to residency matches, which is more a function of where students choose to apply rather than the name of the school. As for workhorses, really? Is Loma Linda somehow special than all the other med students who have to bust their asses at Harvards and Drexels? Didn't you yourself say that all accredited schools teach the same stuff? That makes all schools equal, pretty much.

Ok. You better have gone to LL, otherwise all your comments just don't sit well. Given the logic you use, threads like this "Don't Masturbate," and words like "pwned," I have serious doubts either about your resident status or your maturity as a future doctor, despite that out of all people you have gone to a religious school. "Pwned" Yeah, you got that right.

I completely agree with what you said in the first part. The reason I mentioned having to lie to a patient is because I've often wondered how I would react to a dying patient, or dying child, asking me if I believe in a God, or if they'll be going to a better place when they die. Of course I don't think they're going to a better place, but why would I want to cause a child such emotional pain by telling them the truth? I'd find it much more ethical for me personally to either skillfully evade the question with a vague answer, or simply tell them "Yes, when this is all over there won't be any pain and you'll be in a wonderful place." If they're going to die anyway, I wouldn't want to cause them undue stress or emotional grievance on their deathbed, especially a child. There's a time and a place to actually explain my beliefs, but at work is NOT one of those places. That's how I feel anyway.

You are right, but I am not talking about a child or a dying patient. Just the school. If you are facing a dying patient, you still don't have to lie. First, when the code blue comes up, I am not exactly sure if you are going to have time to talk to your patient about death. And in other circumstances, I am not sure whether doctors are even there when the patient is dying. Even if the scenario comes up and you are asked the difficult question, you should stand by your convictions most of the time. I would respond to such questions with a possibility: matter and energy are interchangeable. We all were stars once and when we die, it is only our physical body that dies, but the energy is not lost and gets back to the universe perhaps to form new stars one day or a new universe. In other words, that is immortality of the essence. A heartfelt discussion like that will make your patient feel better than a cold "God will save you," even if you believe in God.

 

[classydude]

Really? So UCSF, Stanford, and all other CA schools "ask Loma Linda what's it's doing"? Interesting. Do you care to elaborate? Exactly what are they "asking"? What are your sources?

Excelsius, I've already mentioned that LLU students perform better on the clinical exams than the other CA school students. My source is the UCSD SOM administration, in fact the Dean told me that the UC's have had meetings to try to find out why every year the Loma Linda students perform better on the clinical exams! They are actively trying to figure out how its happening and its so clear that it drives them crazy. It just seems that Loma Linda creates stronger clinical physicians, hence why the students there seem to match very well. We have a lot of Loma Linda students as residents here at UCSD and I like to think a spot here is pretty ideal.

In fact I spoke to one of the attendings here after reading this post and he mentioned the reason why Loma Linda students are so successful as residents is that when they start the residency they are already ahead of most other students because the curriculum at Loma Linda allows the students to get a lot more clinical exposure than other schools. That being said, while I dont like the traditional curriculum here at UCSD, I love San Diego too much to go to another school.

And please dont question other people's status or future as a physician, because from what I can read, I rather have jdh71 as my doctor than you.

 

[Katatonic]

You are right, but I am not talking about a child or a dying patient. Just the school. If you are facing a dying patient, you still don't have to lie. First, when the code blue comes up, I am not exactly sure if you are going to have time to talk to your patient about death. And in other circumstances, I am not sure whether doctors are even there when the patient is dying. Even if the scenario comes up and you are asked the difficult question, you should stand by your convictions most of the time. I would respond to such questions with a possibility: matter and energy are interchangeable. We all were stars once and when we die, it is only our physical body that dies, but the energy is not lost and gets back to the universe perhaps to form new stars one day or a new universe. In other words, that is immortality of the essence. A heartfelt discussion like that will make your patient feel better than a cold "God will save you," even if you believe in God.

Yeah, I was talking about the terminally ill, lots of of time to think about the subject kind of situation, not a fast paced code blue. I liked your way of handling it though, rather than overtly saying yes or no. Still, when faced with a child, it'd be tough to keep my composure and stick to my principles with that subject haha. Despite what others have said, I DO think this is a good conversation to have about the schools criteria for entrance and principles taught. If I were screened out of an application process based on my atheism, I'd call BS. It's the same as if a 90% white private school screened black students from entering. I doubt everyone would be playing the "it's a private school so they can discriminate" card. Just my $0.02. Either way, I won't be applying here haha.

 

[Excelsius]

I am not saying that LL is a bad school academically. It maybe average or above. I don't know. What I am talking about is their admissions discrimination, especially since it seems that they are receiving millions in federal grants. Why is it so difficult to separate the issues? I would have doubts about a professor who doesn't believe in evolution and teaches genetics, but one class is not representative of the entire academics at the school.

You wouldn't want to have a doctor who speaks up against religious admissions bias? Unlike you, I would first look at the experience and qualifications of the doctor. I would never choose to discount a doctor because of his political beliefs or even religious affiliation. Neither would I refuse to treat a patient who has opposing views. That's one difference between us.

 

[Excelsius]

Yeah, I was talking about the terminally ill, lots of of time to think about the subject kind of situation, not a fast paced code blue. I liked your way of handling it though, rather than overtly saying yes or no. Still, when faced with a child, it'd be tough to keep my composure and stick to my principles with that subject haha. Despite what others have said, I DO think this is a good conversation to have about the schools criteria for entrance and principles taught. If I were screened out of an application process based on my atheism, I'd call BS. It's the same as if a 90% white private school screened black students from entering. I doubt everyone would be playing the "it's a private school so they can discriminate" card. Just my $0.02. Either way, I won't be applying here haha.

Yes, if you think you wouldn't be able to handle explaining what you believe, then I agree that you could just attribute it to a god when you are dealing with a dying child. There are two things to keep in mind: 1. children are often far more open-minded and prone to accept an explanation even if they don't understand it completely, 2. and probably there aren't a lot of children who are very philosophical about life and think about life after death. You could also practice the explanation with yourself. One day you will be facing death to. What do YOU think will happen? If you think about it, the explanation will come very easily.

Many people here say "don't apply to LL." That is easy to say. As I said, I don't have any problems with LL's lifestyle requirements, probably less so that many religious people here. So that's not an issue. The question is if your only (or one of the fewest options) of becoming a doctor was to attend a religious school, wouldn't you do it? If you say no, then it's questionable whether you are determined to become a doctor. I am sure most atheists wouldn't choose to attend that school, but if that was their only acceptance, most of us will. It's just few of us admit it. Well, I do.

 

[coldweatherblue]

Excelsius, rather than realizing that all people essentially have the same basic needs and that a segment from any given population will exhibit the same social tendencies (ie some will be liberal, some conservative) you divide people into basic camps: the normal, good people, who in your opinion are the non-religious, and the abnormal, who in your opinion seem to be the religious people. Everyone has different reasons for their actions; you spoke about the 2000 election as if it were the direct cause of a lot of problems. Some voted for Bush, some voted for Gore; they all had their reasons relating to their own experiences but ultimately there is no defining difference between them despite for whom they voted.

Medical school is basically the same. I moved to Loma Linda a week ago to begin med school, so I don't have much experience yet, but from what I can tell it is like most other schools and places I've attended. Most people are nice; some people are not so nice. There is no dictatorship telling you how to run your life here. The school has its ideals and expects and hopes that students will follow them; not because it is some crazy-conservative neo-nazi prison, but because the school genuinely believes that it is in the best interest of its medical students to abstain from things like alcohol, illicit drugs, and tobacco.

From reading your posts it sounds like you are bitter against religion for whatever reason, and many of your posts are written in a tone expressly meant to offend someone with religious beliefs. JMO, but I think many here would agree. Again, this is only my opinion but I think it is quite pointless to hold prejudices against vast groups of people who you don't know, because chances are that a lot of those people could be interesting, friendly, and helpful to you otherwise. Everywhere you go some people will be nice, and some not so nice, but either way having a positive attitude towards everyone you meet is ultimately in your best interest. If you came to LLU and spoke with some of the students here, maybe went to the beach, socialized, etc I think you would see that it's a pretty cool place. cheers.

 

[Katatonic]

Yes, if you think you wouldn't be able to handle explaining what you believe, then I agree that you could just attribute it to a god when you are dealing with a dying child. There are two things to keep in mind: 1. children are often far more open-minded and prone to accept an explanation even if they don't understand it completely, 2. and probably there aren't a lot of children who are very philosophical about life and think about life after death. You could also practice the explanation with yourself. One day you will be facing death to. What do YOU think will happen? If you think about it, the explanation will come very easily.

Many people here say "don't apply to LL." That is easy to say. As I said, I don't have any problems with LL's lifestyle requirements, probably less so that many religious people here. So that's not an issue. The question is if your only (or one of the fewest options) of becoming a doctor was to attend a religious school, wouldn't you do it? If you say no, then it's questionable whether you are determined to become a doctor. I am sure most atheists wouldn't choose to attend that school, but if that was their only acceptance, most of us will. It's just few of us admit it. Well, I do.

I would definitely take an acceptance from any religious school. The main reason I wouldn't apply there is cost, and that's all really.

 

[Excelsius]

Excelsius, rather than realizing that all people essentially have the same basic needs and that a segment from any given population will exhibit the same social tendencies (ie some will be liberal, some conservative) you divide people into basic camps: the normal, good people, who in your opinion are the non-religious, and the abnormal, who in your opinion seem to be the religious people. Everyone has different reasons for their actions; you spoke about the 2000 election as if it were the direct cause of a lot of problems. Some voted for Bush, some voted for Gore; they all had their reasons relating to their own experiences but ultimately there is no defining difference between them despite for whom they voted.

Medical school is basically the same. I moved to Loma Linda a week ago to begin med school, so I don't have much experience yet, but from what I can tell it is like most other schools and places I've attended. Most people are nice; some people are not so nice. There is no dictatorship telling you how to run your life here. The school has its ideals and expects and hopes that students will follow them; not because it is some crazy-conservative neo-nazi prison, but because the school genuinely believes that it is in the best interest of its medical students to abstain from things like alcohol, illicit drugs, and tobacco.

From reading your posts it sounds like you are bitter against religion for whatever reason, and many of your posts are written in a tone expressly meant to offend someone with religious beliefs. JMO, but I think many here would agree. Again, this is only my opinion but I think it is quite pointless to hold prejudices against vast groups of people who you don't know, because chances are that a lot of those people could be interesting, friendly, and helpful to you otherwise. Everywhere you go some people will be nice, and some not so nice, but either way having a positive attitude towards everyone you meet is ultimately in your best interest. If you came to LLU and spoke with some of the students here, maybe went to the beach, socialized, etc I think you would see that it's a pretty cool place. cheers.

Some of my friends and most of my coworkers, teachers, classmates, etc, are religious. Religion is so irrelevant that I never even bring it up. Most people in US are religious, meaning that every one of us attends classes where most people believe in some form of god. Is that a problem? Of course not. My grandmother is completely devout, even too much. Does that mean I don't like her? So once again, the issue here is the admissions practices. Did it ever cross your mind that maybe I actually like the no-alcohol and tobacco policy? Now, do you think it's right that I can't attend that school just because I am an atheist? This is exactly what I am talking about. The academics of the school is not an issue. The lifestyle requirements are not an issue (though imposing them so strictly in accordance to religion is not a great idea). The exclusion of certain people from school based on their religion IS an issue.

My only caveat is having a student body that constantly talks about how evolution is not real, sort of like those Jehova's Witnesses. But if that's not what's happening on campus, I am sure I might like the school; however I will not get in since I am an atheist.

If my posts sound anti-religion, it is only because some posters try to put words in my mouth. I have said repeatedly that religion per se is not a problem. Mixing it up with admissions practices or political views is. Just ask yourself: Would Jesus create a school and say that only HIS people could attend it? I have learned enough about the bible to know that the answer to that is a resounding NO.

 

[bcat85]

Some of my friends and most of my coworkers, teachers, classmates, etc, are religious. Religion is so irrelevant that I never even bring it up. Most people in US are religious, meaning that every one of us attends classes where most people believe in some form of god. Is that a problem? Of course not. My grandmother is completely devout, even too much. Does that mean I don't like her? So once again, the issue here is the admissions practices. Did it ever cross your mind that maybe I actually like the no-alcohol and tobacco policy? Now, do you think it's right that I can't attend that school just because I am an atheist? This is exactly what I am talking about. The academics of the school is not an issue. The lifestyle requirements are not an issue (though imposing them so strictly in accordance to religion is not a great idea). The exclusion of certain people from school based on their religion IS an issue.

My only caveat is having a student body that constantly talks about how evolution is not real, sort of like those Jehova's Witnesses. But if that's not what's happening on campus, I am sure I might like the school; however I will not get in since I am an atheist.

If my posts sound anti-religion, it is only because some posters try to put words in my mouth. I have said repeatedly that religion per se is not a problem. Mixing it up with admissions practices or political views is. Just ask yourself: Would Jesus create a school and say that only HIS people could attend it? I have learned enough about the bible to know that the answer to that is a resounding NO.

Do you have ANY evidence to support that other than the religion question on the secondary?


I think you had a real bad experience with religion. I almost wonder if you aren't so much turned to atheism by some sort of philosophical perspective as you are by the nature of your poor experience with organized religion. This happens a ton with the Catholic church, but I don't know much about SDA.

 

[WrightMD]

What I don't like is that the school isn't honest about why they ban certain lifestyles. I agree that smokers and drinkers can be extremely annoying and that a school who didn't allow those activities would be attractive. But they act as if some sort of higher power will be happy because of that. If there was a higher power, I seriously doubt they would be concerned with what humans are doing.

 

[DocMTL]

It is very disconcerting that things can get out of hand so quickly on SDN threads..I haven’t read all the opinions posted here, I will simply try my best to offer my two cents to the inquiring student interested in LLU

I am a current student at LLU, under the MD/PhD program and I will not try to fuel this discussion as it has already deviated from its original intent. Although I’ve only been here (LLU) for a short time, here is what I can say about the institution based on my personal experience

- Loma Linda University truly fosters and environment where you can build relationships with your administrators and staff. They study the roster of all their classes and ensure that they know all of their students by name. I arrived in the admissions to pick up my orientation packet and the secretary greeted me by name (which I’ve never met…The entering class is of ~170+ students…I was impressed) and also knew my roommate (who is an upperclassmen in her clinical rotations)… what state and school she was from, etc…They are very friendly for the most part.

- This attitude also translates to their students I believe. The upperclassmen truly seek out the underclassmen to mentor them and help them out. A third year student lend me all her books. Of course there are some books which I will purchase to keep in my possession, but the gesture speaks volume about the mentality that some people carry on this campus. Furthermore, they will, (the nice ones) give you sound advice on how to pass courses, etc...

-As far as research opportunities goes, LLU has a summer program which pays you roughly 4 000$ to conduct a small project in someone’s lab for 8-10 wks. This may eventually lead to a publication (obviously not first author) depending on your research mentor, project, etc. You can do research in any field and I know LLU is pretty strong on cancer research, and they also have a very strong neuro-phys lab.

-The institution is very big on mission work/humanitarian relief work. They have an organization called SIMS (Students for International Mission Service) which provides a venue for students to provide health services in some underserved area anywhere in the world where there is an affiliated hospital. The opportunity truly is fantastic; furthermore, the school covers a good portion of the associated costs. Doctajay has a blog which i have thoroughly enjoyed about his trip to Africa and that might give you an idea of what the program entails. (www.doctajay.com)


-Support systems are truly of importance here at LLU. They really try to make your transition from undergrad, (or grad, or wherever ...the backgrounds vary from student to student) and sailing here as smooth as possible. And to achieve that, the students have many organizations which foster a nurturing environment for new/returning students. I believe that finding a circle of support is critical in matriculating through medical school successfully; fortunately LLU provides that.

-Your first two weeks and last two weeks of MS1 is spent doing clinical rotations. I think this component of the curriculum is great, although you might not know anything clinically relevant as of yet, the exposure will definitely further fuel your drive to pursue this vocation more intently

-Lastly, the school is truly focused on training physicians; more specifically Christian physicians. The school is an institution of the SDA church and therefore it will follow certain guidelines. However, by no means are the guidelines forced. Now I say this because you chose to attend the institution, and hence agree to uphold a certain standard. That is a conscious choice you make. Many will argue and whine that this is unfair,etc… but the latter will not change the reality. It is true, as previously mentioned, that not everyone follows through with what they sign up (the student form where you consent to uphold a certain lifestyle) But I find this unfortunate since as aspiring physicians, integrity should be held of much higher esteem....
So if you know u can’t do it…you might want to reconsider your choice. Again, being here isn’t unbearable and administrators do not snoop or spy on students’ lives. However, if you make something public (via internet, facebook, myspace, etc...) you might be contacted by the administrators…

Since I do not wish to make this a longer post than it already is… I will answer any questions to the best of my ability, if you have any…(If I can’t answer you, I will direct you to someone who may be more resourceful than myself) You can private message me also, if you feel that putting any more posts on this thread will only fuel this warring debate. (www.llu.edu)

 

[bcat85]

Holy crap an LLU student!? I was starting to think they just had an empty school sitting down there. Thanks for posting and attempting to clear up the trainwreck that is this thread.

 

[DoctaJay]

Lol, man alot happens when you are gone. I'm a 2nd year at LLU, and I'm SDA, so hopefully I can answer some questions. Also I think jdh71 is a rads resident who went to LLU for medical school. I used to have the link to his blog but I can't find it. So yeah, he knows what he is talking about. On to different issues:
______________________

I dont know about the lifestyle there, however friends of mine who go there tell me that a lot of kids drink coffee (even in class) and parties exist. I cant tell you if thats true or not as I dont go there, but I can speak about its academic reputation. There is no doubt that LLU is a top notch school academically. In fact, on the clinical boards, LL students always outperform the UC's Im told. They also have a good match list and all the physicians I know of that went to LLU are top notch, so there is no doubt that its a great school.

And serisouly, if you have problems with a school because you cant get drunk, party, smoke, etc, then should you really be going to medical school? Maybe law school is the better path for you...

As with any church, things tend to be lest strict as time goes on. Probably 50 years ago, no SDA's drank coffee (for health reasons, not because its a sin) but alot of my class does right now and know one even really notices.

It is true that LLU outperforms all other schools on the state wide clinical skills test. HOWEVER, we don't outperform them on the Step II CS test, which is confusing but true. Either way, you will graduate here knowing your clinical skills like the back of your hand.

It might be a good idea first to try to understand the debate and only then decide to make your erudite, over-par-GPA contributions.

I read a little about these other allegedly religious medical schools. None of them come across as intense as Loma Linda. There is a difference between a school having a certain religious affiliation (e.g., Albert Einstein) and a school overtly mandating admissions and personal requirements based on those affiliations.

If you take everything on faith, then it doesn't matter what data you are presented with or what is asked. You are not going to change your positions. Some people here can't understand what is being criticized and keep getting angry because they think their rights are somehow attacked. Maybe this entire discussion is pointless.

The statement in bold is quite true. There are a couple of other religiously based medical schools but LLU still actually retains the atmosphere of a Christian campus. They don't apologize for it, and no one does. It is so clear what they expect from you before you even apply, so that you aren't surprised when you get here. We have required religion classes and chapel every Wednesday (except during test week, and not during 3rd and 4th years). With all that said, I come from the east coast where Adventism is much more strict, and I can truly say that the atmosphere here is quite laid back. There are many options for you to get involved in Bible studies, work in the local communities, pray before tests, etc., but none of that is stuffed down your throat. But if you applied to LLU, and you interviewed, and you were accepted, I would assume that you wouldn't mind the atmosphere which is very comfortable for Christians of all faiths.

Well, this was from my experience when my spouse was a patient at an SDA hospital in Maryland. There was no meat in the cafeteria or in the meals served to patients, and we were informed that this was because most SDA institutions do not serve meat. So if my statement was incorrect, I apologize, as I was misinformed by an SDA hospital administrator.

Don't feel bad LS, I was under that impression too before I got here. In reality, if you just walk into the hospital cafeteria you will only find vegetarian meals on display, but LLU is required by law to have meat available if a patient wants it (or needs it I think) so the cafeteria can make meat if they need to and they do. I was visiting a little girl in the hospital who had leukemia, and there was fried chicken on her plate. So they can hook it up .

Is it true that if I knock my gf up while i'm at LLU I would be kicked out of school?

Someone said something of that sort earlier in the thread but it sounds like the posters who have now arrived in the thread think LLU is not so strict.

Oh, and is it true you can't drink during your time at the school?

LLU always errs on the side of rehabilitation not expulsion. There have been students, residents, and faculty who have gotten into serious problems with alcohol addiction and other drug addictions. LLU has a special program that they are put into where they are given the opportunity to get better while still keeping their spot in school or their position on faculty. Of course everyone's situation is different but generally this is the case. If you got your girlfriend pregnant and you were in medical school I'm pretty sure no one would even know unless you spread the news and much less would they do something about it. There are alot of Adventist girls and guys who have kids out of wedlock and while the more conservative may not be happy, the church in general works towards rehabilitation and reconciliation.

If your SDA, then apply, and have fun.
If you're not, then don't.

I just wanted to respond to this part. I would say that about 35%-40% of my class is not SDA, so I wouldn't discourage non-SDAs from applying. While the atmosphere is wholly Adventist, most non-SDAs still find the environment loving and welcoming.

I am not saying that LL is a bad school academically. It maybe average or above. I don't know. What I am talking about is their admissions discrimination, especially since it seems that they are receiving millions in federal grants. Why is it so difficult to separate the issues? I would have doubts about a professor who doesn't believe in evolution and teaches genetics, but one class is not representative of the entire academics at the school.

You wouldn't want to have a doctor who speaks up against religious admissions bias? Unlike you, I would first look at the experience and qualifications of the doctor. I would never choose to discount a doctor because of his political beliefs or even religious affiliation. Neither would I refuse to treat a patient who has opposing views. That's one difference between us.

Faith-based institutions have proven to work better at providing relief during disasters then many non religious NGOs or organizations. Many of these groups receive federal funds because they provide services for Americans. (Heard this from the McCain debate last night). The separation of church and state in reality is quite different than what you think. LLU's admission policies have been vetted for years and have stood the test. Once again it is about choice, and students choose to apply. LLU doesn't hide at all what they are about; and what are they about? They are about producing Christian physicians who's purpose to work to make man (and woman) whole. They don't hide that, and our dean told us privately how other Cali med school deans told him they envy LLU because they are clear in the type of students they want. The other deans were remarking how they are changing their model student up every year to get the right type of class. For LLU, they don't have to change. They know the type of student they want, they accept them, and things go well. Now I want to make this clear; my dean didn't say that they inherently envied LLU. Cause obviously they have a better national rep than LLU. What the deans were saying was that it was so much easier for LLU to get they class they want because they know the exact type of student to accept. For them they are always changing things to make the class fit into whatever ideal they have.
--------------------------------

I'll be here to answer any pointed questions if you have them.

 

[1John5vs7]

hahahahaha, how uptight can you be? That's ridiculous, better just keep that kind of stuff on a need to know basis. School = doesn't need to know.

It's a private, religious institution, so it can therefore do as it likes. If you studied the Adventist beliefs at all, you'd understand why these things are prohibited in an institute of higher learning. It is not meet to walk after enlightenment while stooping to drag one's knuckles on the ground. And what's more, it certainly seems to be working since Loma Linda is world renowned as an excellent medical institute.

So as an earlier poster observed: why are you applying to an Adventist school if you know nothing about Adventism and can't keep your member in your pants or your hand off a bottle?

And another thing: if you are someone who is abiding by laws in letter only and not in spirit, then the letter of the law says "while at Loma Linda." They cannot enforce such a law if you are not physically on the campus, so all this is saying is that it's a dry campus. So if you want to get sloshed, head out to a seedy bar in San Bernardino. Just watch your back and your wallet, and may God protect you in your stupor.

 

[1John5vs7]

You cry more than anyone. Get a grip man. You've set up more strawmen in one post than I've seen in a long time. You probably deserve some sort of award. One's particular stance in regards to origin has no bearing on the objective study of genetics as it relates to medicine.

And no, I wouldn't care if a bunch of atheists wanted to start their own exclusive school. The only person who really cares is you.

And what's more, my friend, this fellow neglects to mention that there ARE atheist institutions. They just don't state their religion of choice as vocally as Loma Linda. You would be laughed out of most state-funded medical institutions for so much as SUGGESTING that evolutionary theory had holes in it the size of the San Andreas fault. And all of the Ivy Leagues are the same way; heck, who do you think came up with the idea of secular education anyway?

So you're going to cry and moan over one medical school in the entire country that is a bastion for Christian men and women who want to champion the cause of promoting health, wellness, and Christian charity while you have an entire country, nay, an entire world of possibilities at your fingertips? I'll make sure I keep my tiny little violin handy as I read more of your tirades.

 

[1John5vs7]

I completely agree with what you said in the first part. The reason I mentioned having to lie to a patient is because I've often wondered how I would react to a dying patient, or dying child, asking me if I believe in a God, or if they'll be going to a better place when they die. Of course I don't think they're going to a better place, but why would I want to cause a child such emotional pain by telling them the truth? I'd find it much more ethical for me personally to either skillfully evade the question with a vague answer, or simply tell them "Yes, when this is all over there won't be any pain and you'll be in a wonderful place." If they're going to die anyway, I wouldn't want to cause them undue stress or emotional grievance on their deathbed, especially a child. There's a time and a place to actually explain my beliefs, but at work is NOT one of those places. That's how I feel anyway.

You know, I do find it humorous how we, as a collective society, seem to toss the half of the commandments that are so inconvenient to us in our eyes. I mean here is a guy who is droning on about how horrid the idea of a religious institution is, but he feels genuinely guilty about lying. I suspect he would feel guilty about stealing too. And cheating on his wife. And obsessing over his neighbor's possessions to the point that he doesn't sleep at night.

Yet this same fellow can't find common ground with Adventists? I mean what is there that separates an Adventist from a law-abiding atheist? Simply the belief in the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ, the observance of a day of rest (most atheists view Saturday as a day of rest too, albeit they don't observe Sabbath laws, but most secular jobs are off-duty Saturday and Sunday), and trying not to curse. Well I've met a few atheists who think that rattling off obscenities in rapid succession is rather a lowbrow thing to do too, so I guess there's just really one difference.

And for all the similarities between Adventists and atheists, you're hooting and hollering about the one difference? Not only that, you're hooting and hollering about the right to freedom of speech which gives you the right to denounce this religion...when that same freedom of speech also confers freedom of religious practice. Thou hypocrite!

I want to let you know I'm going to be praying for you in the name of Jesus Christ, that He will touch your life in such a way and spill out such blessings on your life that when you realize it is the result of prayer you will be humbled and repent.

Hopefully in the future we can keep threads like this civil so that when prospective students of Loma Linda University School of Medicine--such as myself--are cruising SDN for objective accounts of med student experiences at LLUSoM, they won't have to slog waist-deep through religious hate speech and circular logic.

I can't seem to find a single decent post with information concerning the MD program in all of SDN, and I suspect it's because all the Adventists with any sensibility have quietly left in light of this kind of mindless back-and-forth religious war.

In short, if we're going to invoke freedom of speech, then I would like to use mine to cast a vote that says you should take this to a different thread and stop mucking up a thread that purports to discuss medical school experiences. And I also use my freedom of speech to ask a moderator to take all the religious bickering, this post included, off of this forum so that the objective information can be more readily viewed.

 

[1John5vs7]

It is very disconcerting that things can get out of hand so quickly on SDN threads..I haven’t read all the opinions posted here, I will simply try my best to offer my two cents to the inquiring student interested in LLU

I am a current student at LLU, under the MD/PhD program and I will not try to fuel this discussion as it has already deviated from its original intent. Although I’ve only been here (LLU) for a short time, here is what I can say about the institution based on my personal experience

- Loma Linda University truly fosters and environment where you can build relationships with your administrators and staff. They study the roster of all their classes and ensure that they know all of their students by name. I arrived in the admissions to pick up my orientation packet and the secretary greeted me by name (which I’ve never met…The entering class is of ~170+ students…I was impressed) and also knew my roommate (who is an upperclassmen in her clinical rotations)… what state and school she was from, etc…They are very friendly for the most part.

- This attitude also translates to their students I believe. The upperclassmen truly seek out the underclassmen to mentor them and help them out. A third year student lend me all her books. Of course there are some books which I will purchase to keep in my possession, but the gesture speaks volume about the mentality that some people carry on this campus. Furthermore, they will, (the nice ones) give you sound advice on how to pass courses, etc...

-As far as research opportunities goes, LLU has a summer program which pays you roughly 4 000$ to conduct a small project in someone’s lab for 8-10 wks. This may eventually lead to a publication (obviously not first author) depending on your research mentor, project, etc. You can do research in any field and I know LLU is pretty strong on cancer research, and they also have a very strong neuro-phys lab.

-The institution is very big on mission work/humanitarian relief work. They have an organization called SIMS (Students for International Mission Service) which provides a venue for students to provide health services in some underserved area anywhere in the world where there is an affiliated hospital. The opportunity truly is fantastic; furthermore, the school covers a good portion of the associated costs. Doctajay has a blog which i have thoroughly enjoyed about his trip to Africa and that might give you an idea of what the program entails. (www.doctajay.com)


-Support systems are truly of importance here at LLU. They really try to make your transition from undergrad, (or grad, or wherever ...the backgrounds vary from student to student) and sailing here as smooth as possible. And to achieve that, the students have many organizations which foster a nurturing environment for new/returning students. I believe that finding a circle of support is critical in matriculating through medical school successfully; fortunately LLU provides that.

-Your first two weeks and last two weeks of MS1 is spent doing clinical rotations. I think this component of the curriculum is great, although you might not know anything clinically relevant as of yet, the exposure will definitely further fuel your drive to pursue this vocation more intently

-Lastly, the school is truly focused on training physicians; more specifically Christian physicians. The school is an institution of the SDA church and therefore it will follow certain guidelines. However, by no means are the guidelines forced. Now I say this because you chose to attend the institution, and hence agree to uphold a certain standard. That is a conscious choice you make. Many will argue and whine that this is unfair,etc… but the latter will not change the reality. It is true, as previously mentioned, that not everyone follows through with what they sign up (the student form where you consent to uphold a certain lifestyle) But I find this unfortunate since as aspiring physicians, integrity should be held of much higher esteem....
So if you know u can’t do it…you might want to reconsider your choice. Again, being here isn’t unbearable and administrators do not snoop or spy on students’ lives. However, if you make something public (via internet, facebook, myspace, etc...) you might be contacted by the administrators…

Since I do not wish to make this a longer post than it already is… I will answer any questions to the best of my ability, if you have any…(If I can’t answer you, I will direct you to someone who may be more resourceful than myself) You can private message me also, if you feel that putting any more posts on this thread will only fuel this warring debate. (www.llu.edu)

THANK YOU! Between you and DoctaJay, I have finally managed to get some objective descriptions of what to expect as a student at LLUSoM.

 

[Hymi83]

Thanks for the Med Students who replied. That helps.

 

[ksmi117]

Moving to the School Specific Discussions forum.

 

[Aerin Sol]

There is mandatory chapel every week?

Do you think a straight-edge vegetarian atheist would be happy there?

 

[Tereza586]

I was accepted into LLU and I am a Middle Eastern Catholic with no previous knowledge of SDAs or their beliefs. I even expressed that in the interview and was still accepted into their MPH program (yes I know, this is not the MPH forum). Nevertheless, I am planning to start this fall. The school’s health programs are amazing, the faculty is extremely kind and helpful, and the atmosphere is what I looked for in a school. You do not have to be a SDA to be accepted but you do have to have an open mind and respect others no matter if you share the same beliefs or not, that’s just being a good HUMAN. If you do not share the same social standards as the LLU, then don't apply. But please educate yourselves before you go around calling a group of people a “cult."