HPSP: Deciding Which Branch

[holyravioli]

I've been doing a lot of reading here on SDN and I've spoken with a Navy recruiter over the phone at length and met with an Army recruiter yesterday. I did send a pre-health screening to an AF recruiter but haven't heard anything back yet. I know there is always uncertainty and things can change with HPSP, but I've finally come to an understanding of what the commitment would entail at this point. The biggest thing I'm grappling with is which branch to go with. If anyone is a part of the HPSP and wouldn't mind chatting with me, I'd love to message you. Here's what I've gathered so far though as far as differences go:

Navy: Was told that the GMO tour is a possibility but is not mandatory for all and that this is used by the AF and Army to trick recruits. Pro seems to be the locations/views on the coast or near water compared to likely being in the middle of nowhere with the AF/Army. The possibility of going to Italy after residency if it could be managed is also very tempting to me.

AF: No idea about pros besides subjective opinions I've read that say the AF really cares for its people more so than other branches.

Army: First off, they were the easiest to get a hold of, which could be good or bad haha (fresh blood actively being sought out?). I was told Army HPSP students often do not have issues with residency matching and do not have to do GMO tours like the Navy/go on a boat (good/bad depending on your view) but again it's all the same military match system so it seemed kind of a moot point.


Anyone want to chime in with any HPSP updates or what swayed them? I was hoping I would make a decision soon to avoid applying to multiple branches...

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[WernickeDO]

I've been doing a lot of reading here on SDN and I've spoken with a Navy recruiter over the phone at length and met with an Army recruiter yesterday. I did send a pre-health screening to an AF recruiter but haven't heard anything back yet. I know there is always uncertainty and things can change with HPSP, but I've finally come to an understanding of what the commitment would entail at this point. The biggest thing I'm grappling with is which branch to go with. If anyone is a part of the HPSP and wouldn't mind chatting with me, I'd love to message you. Here's what I've gathered so far though as far as differences go:

Navy: Was told that the GMO tour is a possibility but is not mandatory for all and that this is used by the AF and Army to trick recruits. Pro seems to be the locations/views on the coast or near water compared to likely being in the middle of nowhere with the AF/Army. The possibility of going to Italy after residency if it could be managed is also very tempting to me.

AF: No idea about pros besides subjective opinions I've read that say the AF really cares for its people more so than other branches.

Army: First off, they were the easiest to get a hold of, which could be good or bad haha (fresh blood actively being sought out?). I was told Army HPSP students often do not have issues with residency matching and do not have to do GMO tours like the Navy/go on a boat (good/bad depending on your view) but again it's all the same military match system so it seemed kind of a moot point.


Anyone want to chime in with any HPSP updates or what swayed them? I was hoping I would make a decision soon to avoid applying to multiple branches...

I went with the Army for the reasons that you mention above. It is true that GMO tours are less frequent in the Army than in the Navy, but you do run the chance of doing a GMO tour in the Army too. In my opinion, the Navy has it right in that a larger portion of a residency class is made up of returning GMOs. In the Army, GMOs are kind of an oddity and many people have a hard time getting back to training after a GMO tour, especially if they want something competitive (surgery, EM, rads, etc).

Remember that even if you go straight through with residency that the Army loves to take board certified docs out of the clinic to do brigade surgeon tours which are 95% administrative. If your goal is to become a board certified doctor and to practice medicine in an environment that is patient centered then avoid the military. Keep reading this forum for what life is like for military docs these days.

 

[68PGunner]

The Army GMO is the BN surgeon slot.

 

[holyravioli]

The Army GMO is the BN surgeon slot.

Is that rare? From what I've researched, that tour for the Army would likely be after residency if selected for it.

 

[WernickeDO]

Is that rare? From what I've researched, that tour for the Army would likely be after residency if selected for it.

Residency trained docs are not GMOs. Board certified docs usually occupy brigade level positions if they are operational (4-7 battalions (BN) in a brigade (BDE)). And yes, Army GMOs are the exception rather than the rule, but when it happens to you it's 100%.

 

[Gerudo]

Whether or not you do a GMO in the Navy depends on your specialty and luck regarding what the big Navy feels is necessary that year. It is not a trick used by the Army and Air Force: a majority of people (are forced to) complete a GMO tour.

 

[68PGunner]

Is that rare? From what I've researched, that tour for the Army would likely be after residency if selected for it.

It's technically not a GMO since you will be board certified. However, it's a slot where you get clinical experience at a hospital like twice a month. What kind of crap is that for a BC physician? They're treating you like an enlisted soldier.

 

[holyravioli]

It's technically not a GMO since you will be board certified. However, it's a slot where you get clinical experience at a hospital like twice a month. What kind of crap is that for a BE physician? They're treating you like an enlisted soldier.

That's kind of ironic since the Army recruiter was saying it's all about being patient-centered and keeping docs at the top of their game... Thank you all for the insight, by the way. The recruiter mentioned about a fail-safe if you don't get your residency choice and don't match civilian or do the rebuttal board, but I didn't know about the BE role. @68PGunner are you an Army HPSP?

 

[holyravioli]

Whether or not you do a GMO in the Navy depends on your specialty and luck regarding what the big Navy feels is necessary that year. It is not a trick used by the Army and Air Force: a majority of people (are forced to) complete a GMO tour.

That's what I've been hearing a lot of, that you have a decent shot of doing a residency you enjoy but then afterwards your specialty and the needs of the branch you serve with need to match up. Are you a Navy HPSP student? @Gerudo

 

[holyravioli]

I went with the Army for the reasons that you mention above. It is true that GMO tours are less frequent in the Army than in the Navy, but you do run the chance of doing a GMO tour in the Army too. In my opinion, the Navy has it right in that a larger portion of a residency class is made up of returning GMOs. In the Army, GMOs are kind of an oddity and many people have a hard time getting back to training after a GMO tour, especially if they want something competitive (surgery, EM, rads, etc).

Remember that even if you go straight through with residency that the Army loves to take board certified docs out of the clinic to do brigade surgeon tours which are 95% administrative. If your goal is to become a board certified doctor and to practice medicine in an environment that is patient centered then avoid the military. Keep reading this forum for what life is like for military docs these days.

@WernickeDO I know you can't change what you know now, but would you switch branches or go full civilian for med school? Have you enjoyed your HPSP process thus far? I know this is a big decision so I've been trying to pick student brains instead of just the recruiter's. The Army is kind of what I was leaning towards as I mentioned but I still can't pick a clear cut favorite...

 

[Shikima]

No decision necessary. Coasties.

 

[WernickeDO]

@WernickeDO I know you can't change what you know now, but would you switch branches or go full civilian for med school? Have you enjoyed your HPSP process thus far? I know this is a big decision so I've been trying to pick student brains instead of just the recruiter's. The Army is kind of what I was leaning towards as I mentioned but I still can't pick a clear cut favorite...

If I had it all to do over again I would not join. I have the benefit of hindsight. What you have to realize is that everyone's experience in the military will be different, and I don't just mean a can-do, bloom where you're planted attitude. I have had a bad experience, partially because of my misadventures in internship, but mostly because of the sacrifices I've had to ask my wife to make. When I signed up for HPSP, I was single and thought I wanted to do family med. When I graduated from med school I was married and headed to general surgery. Things change over 4 years, and your HPSP commitment does not.

Know too that many docs do great with HPSP; they get med school paid for, go into a specialty they want, complete fellowship, etc. Those people are usually busy practicing medicine to post on this board, but there are a few veterans here who are real doctors.

Bottom line: you can't possibly predict how you will want your medical career to go before you even start med school orientation. You sign away a lot of freedoms with the HPSP before you are in a position to make an informed decision. Why do you think the Army sends out non-doctors to do the recruiting?

 

[holyravioli]

If I had it all to do over again I would not join. I have the benefit of hindsight. What you have to realize is that everyone's experience in the military will be different, and I don't just mean a can-do, bloom where you're planted attitude. I have had a bad experience, partially because of my misadventures in internship, but mostly because of the sacrifices I've had to ask my wife to make. When I signed up for HPSP, I was single and thought I wanted to do family med. When I graduated from med school I was married and headed to general surgery. Things change over 4 years, and your HPSP commitment does not.

Know too that many docs do great with HPSP; they get med school paid for, go into a specialty they want, complete fellowship, etc. Those people are usually busy practicing medicine to post on this board, but there are a few veterans here who are real doctors.

Bottom line: you can't possibly predict how you will want your medical career to go before you even start med school orientation. You sign away a lot of freedoms with the HPSP before you are in a position to make an informed decision. Why do you think the Army sends out non-doctors to do the recruiting?

That is a good point. Mine was a nurse/former combat medic. I appreciate your insight, that is good food for thought. I'd be lying if I said my motives were not at least partly financial. I understand there is bureaucracy with government and military but I'm largely concerned with doing a specialty I'll love so I am hesitant.

 

[WernickeDO]

That is a good point. Mine was a nurse/former combat medic. I appreciate your insight, that is good food for thought. I'd be lying if I said my motives were not at least partly financial. I understand there is bureaucracy with government and military but I'm largely concerned with doing a specialty I'll love so I am hesitant.

If your main concern is training in a specialty of your choice then avoid the military. In the military, a doctor is an officer with a medical degree. Big Army sees nothing wrong with parking a surgical subspecialist at a desk to do paperwork, or have a PA be a PCP for a 600 man battalion and practice medicine unsupervised (no offense to our PA friends out there). If medicine is your goal, then bite the bullet, take the loans, and never look back. If you want to serve you can always commission after you have completed a civilian residency of your choosing under your terms. Good luck.

 

[Eskibot]

If I had it all to do over again I would not join. I have the benefit of hindsight. What you have to realize is that everyone's experience in the military will be different, and I don't just mean a can-do, bloom where you're planted attitude. I have had a bad experience, partially because of my misadventures in internship, but mostly because of the sacrifices I've had to ask my wife to make. When I signed up for HPSP, I was single and thought I wanted to do family med. When I graduated from med school I was married and headed to general surgery. Things change over 4 years, and your HPSP commitment does not.

Know too that many docs do great with HPSP; they get med school paid for, go into a specialty they want, complete fellowship, etc. Those people are usually busy practicing medicine to post on this board, but there are a few veterans here who are real doctors.

Bottom line: you can't possibly predict how you will want your medical career to go before you even start med school orientation. You sign away a lot of freedoms with the HPSP before you are in a position to make an informed decision. Why do you think the Army sends out non-doctors to do the recruiting?

Are you still completing your residency?


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[WernickeDO]

Are you still completing your residency?


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No I am a GMO. I am doing my time and getting out.

 

[Eskibot]

No I am a GMO. I am doing my time and getting out.

So you got the Army HPSP, matched into gen surg, got orders for a GMO tour? Then you'll go back to complete the gen surg residency and do your 4 year obligation?


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[WernickeDO]

So you got the Army HPSP, matched into gen surg, got orders for a GMO tour? Then you'll go back to complete the gen surg residency and do your 4 year obligation?


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No I am paying back my obligation now.

 

[Eskibot]

No I am paying back my obligation now.

So you completed your residency and the Army made you a GMO? Sorry, im not really understanding your situation.


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[WernickeDO]

So you completed your residency and the Army made you a GMO? Sorry, im not really understanding your situation.


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No. I was removed from residency to do a GMO tour against my will.

A better way of understanding for you would be to spend some time on this forum reading and using the search function to get an idea as to what this game is like. My situation is going to be different from others and you need to understand the whole picture before you sign up.

 

[Eskibot]

No. I was removed from residency to do a GMO tour against my will.

A better way of understanding for you would be to spend some time on this forum reading and using the search function to get an idea as to what this game is like. My situation is going to be different from others and you need to understand the whole picture before you sign up.

Gotcha. I have been trying to absorb as much as I can. Also have been in contact with an Army doc doing a family residency now, but I just want to learn about what individuals are going through/ have been through to understand all the possibilities.

If you dont mind me asking, so Army pulled you from your residency, and just made you a GMO for the rest of your service time? Will you be allowed to go back to your residency after you get out?


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[Mace1370]

I think the hardest thing to communicate to people who are looking at joining the military to pay for medical school is how much freedom you actually sacrifice. It is a hard thing to comprehend. I think it is important to realize, like Wernicke said, that many things can change after you have signed up, but your contract stays the same.

Realize that if you are single and ok moving around the country you might fall in love with someone who doesn't want to move around. Maybe they have a career that is only viable in a few select areas. Maybe the military forces you away from those areas. This was my scenario. I joined up as a single guy and realized I could get moved around or deployed. I was ok with this, but didn't really about what would happen if I fell in love with someone who wasn't flexible. It is easy to rationalize and say "oh, I'll just date people who are ok with my situation" but life is never that straight forward.

Also, I didn't realize before I signed up how limiting the military can be for those interested in fellowship training. Many fellowships are just not allowed, period. I had no idea. Also, depending on your specialty many people are not selected for fellowship or have to wait years before they go.

I am so thankful my situation has worked out so well. I matched to my #1 specialty choice and got my #1 location. Then, I got selected for my #1 fellowship choice right after residency. I look around at other residents in my situation and literally only one or two other people have a similar situation. In my class alone, I know there is one candidate who is a very strong resident but will not be able to get a fellowship right away. He asked the Navy and they pretty much gave him the finger. I can see how bitter I would be if I didn't get as lucky as I have.

 

[Eskibot]

I think the hardest thing to communicate to people who are looking at joining the military to pay for medical school is how much freedom you actually sacrifice. It is a hard thing to comprehend. I think it is important to realize, like Wernicke said, that many things can change after you have signed up, but your contract stays the same.

Realize that if you are single and ok moving around the country you might fall in love with someone who doesn't want to move around. Maybe they have a career that is only viable in a few select areas. Maybe the military forces you away from those areas. This was my scenario. I joined up as a single guy and realized I could get moved around or deployed. I was ok with this, but didn't really about what would happen if I fell in love with someone who wasn't flexible. It is easy to rationalize and say "oh, I'll just date people who are ok with my situation" but life is never that straight forward.

Also, I didn't realize before I signed up how limiting the military can be for those interested in fellowship training. Many fellowships are just not allowed, period. I had no idea. Also, depending on your specialty many people are not selected for fellowship or have to wait years before they go.

I am so thankful my situation has worked out so well. I matched to my #1 specialty choice and got my #1 location. Then, I got selected for my #1 fellowship choice right after residency. I look around at other residents in my situation and literally only one or two other people have a similar situation. In my class alone, I know there is one candidate who is a very strong resident but will not be able to get a fellowship right away. He asked the Navy and they pretty much gave him the finger. I can see how bitter I would be if I didn't get as lucky as I have.

Wow, thanks for the information. I still have a year or so before I apply so I will definitely consider everything you just said.

So what happened to the guy who didnt get his fellowship right away?


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[psychbender]

Wow, thanks for the information. I still have a year or so before I apply so I will definitely consider everything you just said.

So what happened to the guy who didnt get his fellowship right away?


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I can't speak to his particular acquaintance, but I was told no to fellowship, so I'm getting out this year and going to fellowship on my own. Another classmate is in the exact same position, but getting out next year.

 

[Gerudo]

That's what I've been hearing a lot of, that you have a decent shot of doing a residency you enjoy but then afterwards your specialty and the needs of the branch you serve with need to match up. Are you a Navy HPSP student? @Gerudo

I am. Feel free to pm me if you have any specific questions.