SDN members see fewer ads and full resolution images. Join our non-profit community!

HPSP Recruiter Meeting

Discussion in 'Military Medicine' started by TryingToDoc, Feb 24, 2017.

  1. SDN is made possible through member donations, sponsorships, and our volunteers. Learn about SDN's nonprofit mission.
  1. TryingToDoc

    TryingToDoc

    58
    31
    Dec 27, 2015
    Have a meeting in the next week or so with a HPSP recruiter. I've written a lot of questions but I'm sure there are things I haven't thought of that only people who have gone through the process would think to ask. Any recommendations on additional questions I should ask?

    Thanks!
     
  2. SDN Members don't see this ad. About the ads.
  3. colbgw02

    colbgw02 Delightfully Tacky 10+ Year Member

    Huh? So you want people to just post random questions and then you'll check to see if you need to add them to your list? That's kinda useless without knowing how well-informed you already are. Why not just post what you plan to ask and then let others add to it? Or, better yet, read the forum, extensively, and then ask your questions here if you can't find the answer(s).

    I think you'll find this forum a much better resource than your recruiter, especially because this whole thing is a big, lumbering bureaucratic machine. Your recruiter doesn't have the authority to make changes or give you assurances. At best, he can give you updated information about scholarship competitiveness, but you're better off here otherwise. At worst, your recruiter will be ill-informed and pass out black pearls.
     
  4. Perrotfish

    Perrotfish Has an MD in Horribleness 10+ Year Member

    7,370
    2,641
    May 26, 2007
    Physician
    The thing to understand about HPSP recruiters is that they are not doctors and don't really know the answers to any questions you might have. The good ones will say so, the bad ones will make something up. The only questions I would ask the recruiter would be about the process of being recruited itself, like 'when do I go to MEPS?' and 'what is a scroll form?'.

    For all other questions just ask us.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
  5. Gastrapathy

    Gastrapathy no longer apathetic Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    4,088
    2,671
    Feb 27, 2007
    Physician
    Ask him for stock tips. He's as qualified for that as he is to explain the complexities of HPSP and everything that follows.
     
    KP2AZ and 68PGunner like this.
  6. WernickeDO

    WernickeDO Mending tents 5+ Year Member

    534
    256
    Feb 27, 2011
    Tatooine
    Physician
    Read this forum as exhaustively as possible. If you have questions try the search function, and if there are no answers then feel free to start a new thread. You should go into this meeting knowing more about HPSP than your recruiter does. If your recruiter gives you answers that smell fishy you can post them here and we can try to verify their accuracy.
     
  7. deuist

    deuist Stealthfully Sarcastic Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    4,367
    257
    Jun 14, 2004
    Florida
    Physician
    Air Force
    Ask, "How are you qualified to tell me about being a doctor in the military?"
     
    KP2AZ, HopefulSlav, Clap MD and 4 others like this.
  8. Ask your recruiter to get you in touch with a military doctor to answer your questions. Use your recruiter to give you up-to-date answers on incentives, contracts, and the application process.
     
  9. TryingToDoc

    TryingToDoc

    58
    31
    Dec 27, 2015
    Hey Hey,

    I talked to the recruiter and there was an answer or two that didn't jive super well with me. Mainly, about having my residency interrupted to be sent out on a GMO tour. I had read that you can be sent out during your residency and then have to come back and try to finish it after a GMO year. I asked, and the recruiter said "why would do that, it doesn't make sense to interrupt your training" that seemed like a non-denial. Do you know of this happening or a possibility of happening? It's the Navy btw.
     
    155HE likes this.
  10. colbgw02

    colbgw02 Delightfully Tacky 10+ Year Member

    This is mostly about how you want to parse the language.

    Military medicine makes a distinction between internship (FYGME) and the rest of residency. This is true even for specialties whose internship is integrated, much less fields that have separate preliminary years (e.g. rads, derm, etc.). So, when a recruiter says the military won't interrupt your training, he either 1) doesn't understand, 2) is lying, or 3) is telling a half-truth. The half-truth version is that the military absolutely will send you to be a GMO after internship, but they may not recognize that as a legitimate interruption because they don't draw a straight line between PGY-1 and PGY-2.

    Of course, this distinction between FYGME and beyond, apart from being vestigial, is one made only by the military. Every other person/organization in the country recognizes that an undesired delay between PGY-1 and PGY-2 is an interruption in training.
     
    WernickeDO likes this.
  11. SirGecko

    SirGecko Go Navy 7+ Year Member

    1,133
    27
    Feb 27, 2008
    The reason your recruiter didn't really answer the question is most likely because they don't know the answer due to a lack of familiarity with how post graduate training works in the Navy. You do not apply for your full residency right out medical school. You apply for intern year right out of medical school and then during medical school apply to residency/GMO programs. The proper terminology isn't really that you get sent out "during" residency as the Navy doesn't see it that way. You get sent out between your intern year and your residency. Functionally this is what you mean when you say getting sent out during residency but imprecise language can contribute to confusion here.

    So the answer is yes you have a good chance of getting sent to do a GMO tour in the Navy.
     
  12. TryingToDoc

    TryingToDoc

    58
    31
    Dec 27, 2015
    @colbgw02 @SirGecko I think I may have a flawed understanding of residency in general. I was under the assumption you applied for residency during your 4th year and then went straight in if you were accepted and that the length of the residency (4 years for example for psych) was what you did and the Navy could say, between years 2 and 3 could say you have a GMO tour and then come back and do years 3 and 4.

    You all are much more familiar with the process and seems you're saying there is an internship year and then residency training after that and that I could get sent on a GMO tour between the two. Pgy 1 is postgraduate year one I assume. I don't mind doing a GMO tour, but was afraid I would be doing a residency and that would be interrupted.
     
  13. colbgw02

    colbgw02 Delightfully Tacky 10+ Year Member

    The first year of post-graduate medical education is internship (AKA PGY-1 and FYGME). Sometimes your internship is part of your residency, such as with internal medicine, general surgery, pediatrics, etc.. Sometimes your internship is a separate program, not necessarily even in the same state, that you complete before going to your residency, as seen in dermatology, anesthesia, radiology, etc..

    For all specialties, the military makes a distinction between internship and the rest of residency, even if they aren't separate programs. This is a vestige of when an internship-trained-only physician wasn't uncommon. Sometimes the distinction is administrative only - as in when the military offers you a contract for continuous training out of medical school. Many times, the distinction is quite real, requiring you to reapply for a PGY-2 position. People who are not accepted into a PGY-2 position with an active duty service obligation (ADSO) will become a GMO.

    They will not pull you out of internship to be a GMO because you can't get a medical license. I have never heard of a resident in good standing being pulled out of residency to be a GMO. However, only in the military is it not a foregone conclusion for an intern in good-standing to progress to PGY-2. I think it's word games to call that anything other than getting pulled out of training.
     
  14. SirGecko

    SirGecko Go Navy 7+ Year Member

    1,133
    27
    Feb 27, 2008
    Yes pgy means post graduate year. And just because the navy doesn't call it an interruption doesn't mean that it isn't one. A good illustration of this is that there has been talk about making some of the people doing reaidencies with categorical internships repeat intern year if they are out for too long. (The example I know I've heard about is ER)

    The other nuance to remember here is that if you do a gmo tour and then go to residency you aren't "returning" to residency. You are applying to get a PGY-2 spot but one isn't being "held" for you. This could have functionally no impact on you but it also means might. There are a lot of variables and not a lot of garuntees there.
     
  15. backrow

    backrow 60% of the time it works everytime Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    1,554
    212
    Apr 16, 2005
    That's not talk in regard to EM, that is now a requirement according to the RRC/Board of Emergency Medicine. 3yrs or more gap between EM internship and residency = repeat internship.

    This is not a Navy/military thing, this is an ACGME/Board of XYZ specialty thing.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
     
  16. SirGecko

    SirGecko Go Navy 7+ Year Member

    1,133
    27
    Feb 27, 2008
    I can't imagine that other specialties will be far behind in implementing similar rules.
     
  17. backrow

    backrow 60% of the time it works everytime Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    1,554
    212
    Apr 16, 2005
    For the categorical programs I think you are likely correct.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
     
  18. DeadCactus

    DeadCactus SDN Lifetime Donor Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    2,473
    520
    Oct 28, 2006
    Your first mistake is having questions for a recruiter. Once you've moved beyond a cursory interest in the military, a recruiter is a paper-shuffling beaurocrat. And like every other paper-shuffling beaurocrat in the military, your life will go much smoother if you know the answers to the questions you are asking them better than they do.
     
    Mclovin0351 likes this.
  19. Armyhealth

    Armyhealth

    354
    143
    Jan 3, 2017
    Army
    @TryingToDoc while deadcactus is right that some healthcare recruiters just don't know the programs or know how to get the answers you seek that is not all of us. I usually set up my appointments with at least one doctor/former HPSP on the ready to answer any question I don't know. I also never give a half answer, if I don't know I will tell you I don't know and will go find the answer for you.
     
  20. dr zaius

    dr zaius 7+ Year Member

    1,343
    340
    Oct 27, 2008
    Physician
    Army
    I had a pretty decent recruiter (O-4 nurse) who was straightforward and didn't try to BS her way through things. I picked through this forum thoroughly in '08-'09 while going through the process, and when I asked questions I developed from this board that she did not know the answer to she set me up with a .mil doc that went through the process. This does not appear to be the norm based on my discussions with other HPSP residents. Many were told they could do whatever specialty they wanted, residency was awesome with high volume, and they could kick down doors if they so desired. I think maybe we should find a way to give recruiting feedback, because milmed makes us disgruntled enough as is as military physicians. It's bad enough when you have some sort of idea of what you are stepping into, but those that haven't found this site/are completely blind to the problems are the most miserable of all.
     
  21. TryingToDoc

    TryingToDoc

    58
    31
    Dec 27, 2015
    Other than not being familiar with interruption of residency, my recruiter told me they didn't know when I asked a question with which they weren't familiar. They also wrote the question down and said they would try to find out answers for me. As to the specialty question, my recruiter actually told me that the specialty I was interested in has been overfilled the last few years and they had less spots this year that than the last few. I had a good amount of questions from reading the posts on this forum before, thankfully.
     
  22. HighPriest

    HighPriest insert "clever" statement 7+ Year Member

    1,235
    850
    Jan 1, 2008
    Army
    Not all recruiters are necessarily dishonest. Some are. Some make up answers, others do not. The problem occurs when a recruiter legitimately thinks they know the answer to a question, when in fact they are misinformed. I have certainly seen that happen. So my advice is to ask your recruiter "mechanical" questions about the application process, and save questions specific to the training or practice of medicine for a milmed doc.
     
    Homunculus and Armyhealth like this.
  23. DeadCactus

    DeadCactus SDN Lifetime Donor Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    2,473
    520
    Oct 28, 2006
    I didn't mean to come across as overly disparaging of recruiters. I've been fortunate and yet to have a negative experience with any of the recruiters I've ever dealt with. But I do believe very strongly in not losing track of people's expertise and people's motivation. No one will care more about your needs than you and you need to remember that whenever you are dealing with recruiters, financial advisors, lawyers, etc. You have to decide what is important to you, do your own research, and really only rely on answers to specific questions within their area of expertise. The medical training process is complex and there are nuances to a medical career that are difficult to appreciate without being inside the process. Good recruiters will be familiar with it but it's not their area of expertise. They are experts on moving through the bureaucratic process of taking you from civilian to service member; if you're completely relying on their answer to your question, it should be related to that.
     
    Armyhealth likes this.
  24. Gastrapathy

    Gastrapathy no longer apathetic Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    4,088
    2,671
    Feb 27, 2007
    Physician
    But @Armyhealth obviously considers himself a good recruiter and he "knew" that we didn't live in a tent for months (ok inside a burned out building inside a tent) outside the wire in Iraq in 2003. They all can't be trusted to be accurate.
     
  25. sb247

    sb247 wait...you mean I got in? 5+ Year Member

    14,723
    19,070
    Jul 5, 2012
    Galt's Gulch
    I genuinely get along with my recruiter. They are nice and well intentioned. They still help me navigate the beaurocracy now...

    Having said that...they know less than nothing about med school/residency/doctors. And that level of knowledge is not similar to what they think they know. More than once they said things that were patently untrue with surety. And not just med related, i had to almost get rude to get them to realize an incentive program they were pushing had a larger service obligation than they thought.

    Nice and honest is not enough for a recruit to trust. "But my recruiter said" won't save you from .mil obligations 8yrs from now.

    My normal philosophy is "trust, but verify". My .mil philosophy is literally just verify from the get go
     
  26. Armyhealth

    Armyhealth

    354
    143
    Jan 3, 2017
    Army
    I lived in a tent inside the wire 2003, we were at Anaconda. You could ask 25 people what their experience was like during a deployment and you would get 25 answers. I am sorry your deployment was so tough. Though I think you suffer from recruiter PTSD :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
  27. Gastrapathy

    Gastrapathy no longer apathetic Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    4,088
    2,671
    Feb 27, 2007
    Physician
    You just don't get it. I'm not competing with your deployments or those of any of the 8404s.

    You said something false with certainty. Then you said that you don't do that. You're better informed than the average recruiter yet you can't get it right. There is no accountability when you tell an applicant an untruth (intentional or otherwise).
     
  28. Armyhealth

    Armyhealth

    354
    143
    Jan 3, 2017
    Army
    I do get what you are saying but your personal standard of what a recruiter should be is over the top. We are human and we make mistakes, have you never told a patient something that you thought was true but ended up being wrong? I had a condition where I was misdiagnosed for six months before they figured out what was wrong. I don't make it my personal mission to go after every doctor that says something untrue or misleading. Everyone does it by accident in every profession so please step off the soap box and realize that recruiters are trying to fill an all volunteer force. Without us you would be talking to someone who just drafted you or your son or someone else you care about instead of trying to be helpful and find volunteers that are willing to serve.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
    OxToCA likes this.
  29. sb247

    sb247 wait...you mean I got in? 5+ Year Member

    14,723
    19,070
    Jul 5, 2012
    Galt's Gulch
    "put up with flaws in recruiting or deal with the draft" isn't a particularly strong argument.

    I believe you are sincere but just answering policy questions is likely to be more successful than this line of discussion.
     
    HopefulPilot likes this.
  30. colbgw02

    colbgw02 Delightfully Tacky 10+ Year Member

    Unless you're referring to an internist speaking authoritatively about neurosurgery, this is a pretty terrible false equivalency.
     
  31. Ziehl-Neelsen

    Ziehl-Neelsen I'm perfectly calm, dude. 10+ Year Member

    442
    159
    Feb 17, 2005
    Oh please. Talk about a false dilemma.

    And reinstitute the draft I say. I'll bet a copy of Stranger in a Strange Land that I'm not the only Heinlein-reading laconophile on this board.

    No citizenship without service!
     
  32. WernickeDO

    WernickeDO Mending tents 5+ Year Member

    534
    256
    Feb 27, 2011
    Tatooine
    Physician
    upload_2017-3-12_14-36-48.png
     
    rhedr001, Armyhealth and Shikima like this.
  33. Armyhealth

    Armyhealth

    354
    143
    Jan 3, 2017
    Army
    I believe you are sincere but just answering policy questions is likely to be more successful than this line of discussion.[/QUOTE]

    You are right, and being in this forum talking to you guys have made me more informed. I enjoy constructive criticism and things that make me learn and grow. I actually have adjusted the way I talk about matching numbers for the Army and don't compare them to civilian matching anymore when I talk to interested students because of previous threads on this forum. So at least I am trying to get better....however is there a reason to go after every single post and try to find a flaw in it like @Gastrapathy is doing?
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
  34. sb247

    sb247 wait...you mean I got in? 5+ Year Member

    14,723
    19,070
    Jul 5, 2012
    Galt's Gulch
    Don't hold it against us if you can manage. Much like you are protective over recruiters , this forum is protective of medical recruits. We're all a little sensitive about potential mistreatment of our respective tribes.

    If we all stick to our particular expertise, our goals don't really have to be opposed
     
    pgg likes this.
  35. TryingToDoc

    TryingToDoc

    58
    31
    Dec 27, 2015
    Has anyone had to do a GMO tour after their pgy-1 and then went back in to match? What were your experiences, did you think it made it harder for you to find a residency?
     
  36. Gastrapathy

    Gastrapathy no longer apathetic Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    4,088
    2,671
    Feb 27, 2007
    Physician
    Challenge accepted. And here I'd refrained from commenting on the absurdity of the rather classic false dilemma presented above.
     
  37. Army Medical Recruiter

    Army Medical Recruiter

    6
    2
    Apr 5, 2016
    Army

    @Armyhealth I am also a recruiter (Army), the Recruiters in my office does the same thing. We always offer a subject matter expert (SME) to speak with anyone that comes into our office with non-processing questions. It's a team effort between the Recruiter aND the Physician that went through the particular program.

    @TryingToDoc if your Recruiter did not offer for you to speak with a Physician ask to speak with one. Good luck with your studies.
     
    Homunculus likes this.
  38. MDviaMBB

    MDviaMBB 2+ Year Member

    41
    7
    Aug 15, 2015
    Well, he is a gastroenterologist :prof:
     
    OxToCA likes this.
  39. Homunculus

    Homunculus SDN Caveman Administrator SDN Moderator 10+ Year Member

    3,520
    271
    Jul 24, 2000
    Physician
    wow.

    1) "to err is human..." yes, we get it. try using that excuse as an air traffic controller, pilot, or surgeon. thankfully you're not at that level of responsibility, but when you make a mistake or mislead someone (consciously or not) you have a huge impact in their life-- 11+ years of military involvement. you aren't recruiting an infantryman or cook who can get out in a few years. similarly, the opportunity cost for a physician is many times that of (most) enlisted recruits. you need to know what these medical students are giving up to know how impactful your information is.

    2) all volunteer force should not be relevant to the discussion. here you are basically admitting that filling an all volunteer force is difficult (no doubt) and that we should cut you some slack when it comes to being misleading. that cuts to the heart of the problem. if you are having to "sell" it like you'd sell a used car there's a problem. what I can tell you from my end is that the more transparent you are at your stage of the game the better off the whole system will be. I don't know if you operate on a quota system-- I suspect you do-- but if so that's part of the problem. further-- would you cut your surgeon or subspecialist some slack when it comes to being treated since they are "volunteers?" because I can tell you on our end we don't get any bonus points for it.

    --your friendly to err is human, to really f*ck things up requires a computer caveman
     
    Fluffhead87 likes this.
  40. OxToCA

    OxToCA 2+ Year Member

    112
    37
    Nov 7, 2015
    I'm curious about your opinions on the 20% NIH budget cut and likely boost to defense-related research funding as it relates to potential HPSP applicants (e.g. they would be more interested in applying if they want to do research in practice); there's a lot of doom and gloom talk in the physician scientist forum about this NIH Could Face $6 Billion cut in new budget. Here's a link to my post in the pre-MD Health Professions Scholarship Program and pre-DO Health Professions Scholarship Program sub-forums about it, which states the following:

    "
    Although I'm still researching the above, I wanted to bump this thread with an update since there has been a lot of talk on other sub-forums (e.g. Physician Scientists: NIH Could Face $6 Billion cut in new budget & Business: Should I do a MD/MBA if I want to have my own Pharmaceutical company? & the Sociopolitical Lounge: https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/opinion-on-new-fda-commissioner.1247385/) about the recent 20%/$6 billion NIH budget cut.

    Defense-related research funding will not be affected and is most likely going to get a boost; posters in all of the above linked threads have stated the same, including moderators. So IMO, the HPSP is a route toward a research career since a lot of non-MD/PhDs do research (e.g. as clinical assistant professors) and have labs @Armyhealth"

    In other words, it'd be great if HPSP recipients could be involved with defense-based research in medical school at/through the DoD, NIH, etc. as well as during residency and payback, and the OP could ask his recruiter about that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  41. backrow

    backrow 60% of the time it works everytime Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    1,554
    212
    Apr 16, 2005
    I'm not sure if you are currently a military physician, but if you are you should know very well that significant research as a physician in the military is nearly impossible. Except for USUHS I bet you could count on one hand the number of physicians who have a true research lab and the number of physicians at USUHS as a percentage is probably significantly lower than 1%.

    HPSP recipients are probably already doing some of that DOD funded research as the vast majority of DOD funded medical research actually occurs outside the military.

    If you want to be a researcher the military is not the place to be.



    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
     
  42. OxToCA

    OxToCA 2+ Year Member

    112
    37
    Nov 7, 2015
    I'm not a physician, and think that being involved with defense-related research as a medical student, resident, and during payback would support doing it afterward as a civilian. Don't know if this addresses your points; I also want to go to USUHS for medical school.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  43. pgg

    pgg Laugh at me, will they? SDN Moderator 10+ Year Member

    10,722
    4,703
    Dec 14, 2005
    Home Again
    The vast, vast majority of "defense-related" research is done by civilian physicians and scientists.

    A career as a military physician will not give you a leg up or some kind of "in" to doing DOD-funded research either during or after your obligated service. If anything, it will be detrimental because it is very difficult to engage in meaningful research while on active duty.
    1) there's no protected time to do it
    2) virtually everyone is moved every 2-3 years, putting a hard cap on the length of any project they take on
    3) deployments occur at unpredictable times


    Also ... attempting to interpret year-to-year federal budget proposals to guide your multi-decade long career aspirations is, perhaps, like reading tea leaves. There's a lot of noise in that signal.
     
  44. OxToCA

    OxToCA 2+ Year Member

    112
    37
    Nov 7, 2015
    Thanks for the reply; I started a thread on a related topic, too NIH Defunding (news) vs Defense Research

    For reference, you seem to have alluded to what I asked about in it, which is whether potential HPSP applicants would "... be more interested in applying if they want/know they can do funded research in practice after completing their obligations."
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  45. TryingToDoc

    TryingToDoc

    58
    31
    Dec 27, 2015
    So does anyone have an answer to my question about having had an interruption between their pgy-1 year and residency and how that affected their chances to match?
     
  46. SirGecko

    SirGecko Go Navy 7+ Year Member

    1,133
    27
    Feb 27, 2008
    Thought I answered that but looking back I must have not submitted the response. The answer sort of depends on what you are trying to do. Are you asking about returning to milmed gme or going out to civilian? I don't know much beyond hearsay about applying out to civilian. I'm sure it depends on if the program sees your gap in training as a liability or not.

    For the Navy at least it's generally not going to be a hit on your ability to match unless you are trying to apply to a program with a categorical intern year that you didn't already do. (Example: you did gen surg and later decided to do ortho; that may result in an uphill battle) It's supposed to actually be helpful for matching by the scoring system but don't get oversold on that. That said it is part of why you can expect even if you are competetive that there is a good chance you will need to do a gmo tour after intern year. If you aren't competetive enough to match for a specialty no amount of operational time will change that.
     
  47. WernickeDO

    WernickeDO Mending tents 5+ Year Member

    534
    256
    Feb 27, 2011
    Tatooine
    Physician
    If you are asking about how doing a GMO tour will affect your chances of matching to a civilian program after getting out, then take a look at the excellent "Civilian residency" sticky on the front page. It will largely depend on you, in terms of preparation, academics, and timing. Generally, military service is viewed favorably when you go to apply.

    If you are asking about the military match after a 2 year GMO, then take a look at the "Military medicine: Pros, Cons" sticky. If you go to the last page in the thread you will find a discussion about how difficult it can be to get back to residency after a GMO tour if you want to do something besides FM, IM, or psych. I know it sounds strange that the civilian world views GMO time more favorably than the military does, but here we are.
     
    TryingToDoc likes this.

Share This Page