HR 5688 - “Healthcare Truth and Transparency Act"

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thats right! the point here being that barbers did not invent dentistry, nor does dentistry have its roots strongly imbedded in a barber shop. assistance/hygiene is probably a more reasonable spin-off from barbers than is dentistry. CCSN in las vegas has a pretty cool museum of dentistry, should anyone EVER have a spare moment while in town.


jefguth said:
1130-1163—A series of Papal edicts prohibit monks from performing any type of surgery, bloodletting or tooth extraction. Barbers often assisted monks in their surgical ministry because they visited monasteries to shave the heads of monks and the tools of the barber trade—sharp knives and razors—were useful for surgery. After the edicts, barbers assume the monks’ surgical duties: bloodletting, lancing abscesses, extracting teeth, etc.

1210—A Guild of Barbers is established in France. Barbers eventually evolve into two groups: surgeons who were educated and trained to perform complex surgical operations; and lay barbers, or barber-surgeons, who performed more routine hygienic services including shaving, bleeding and tooth extraction.

1400s—A series of royal decrees in France prohibit lay barbers from practicing all surgical procedures except bleeding, cupping, leeching, and extracting teeth.
http://www.ada.org/public/resources/history/timeline_midlage.asp

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xmattODx said:
ProZackMI,

Thanks for your posts in this thread. Excellent. You echo many things I have felt about optometry for the past 8 years and I appreciate the thougt you've put into your posts and your willingness to share them.

I must admit that a lot of pre-optometry students and early optometry students are fed a line from organized optometry that doesn't bear out in reality. We are told we are primary care eye doctors but have no idea what primary care really is. We don't work with patient's systemic disease, although we claim we are taught systemic disease. The real optometric world is a harsh mistress and as the reality of optometry sets in we often sound bitter, angry, and as a few of the recent posts show, a bit ignorant.

Thanks again

xmattODx,

Thanks for the comments. I think a lot of folks on this forum believe I'm like I_surgeon and other OMDs who truly believe ODs are technicians. I'm NOT an OMD. I'm an internist/psychiatrist. In the hierarchy of organized medicine, I'm a smear on someone's boot. I'm no way up there in status or prestige as an OMD, neurosurgeon, vascular surgeon, etc. That being said, I don't need to compare myself to others and whine about how I'm viewed.

Believe it or not, even among MDs, which is my point, we make these value judgments. I mean, many OMDs, on the ophth forum, knock optometry and love to point out how inferior OD training is compared to MD training. Well, among the MDs, many surgeons knock psychiatrists and make comments that we're not real doctors either. Many other specialties look down on internists, OB-GYNS, peds, etc. It happens. You wouldn't think it would among educated folks, but it happens.

I don't need to compare myself to an OD because there is no comparison whatsoever. I don't believe I'm better than an OD, BUT I do believe the training an MD receives is vastly different from the training an OD receives. Why? Because it is. I don't care how many hours of pharm you guys receive, you don't have the same type of training in pharmacology as an MD. I don't care if OD students at UAB sit in the same classes as the dental students. I don't care if some ODs go through a one year residency.

My point here is that many ODs are delusional if they really believe their training is similar to or equivalent to an MDs. This Bill aims to make those differences clear in advertising and self-promotion. I mean, let's be honest here, we're not talking about trivial points like number of years in school, title of professional degrees, and things like. We're talking about type of training and depth of training.

It's like I said above, an OD knows a hell of a lot about the eye and how to treat ocular conditions, but primary care medicine is much more than that. What may appear to be something ocular might be something more insidious (e.g., neurological, neoplastic, vascular, etc.). MOST ODs do not serve as primary care providers in the real world, do they? Isn't it true that most refract or do a combo refraction and basic, minor ocular care? If I, as a patient, have a true medical problem like proliferative diabetic retinopathy mac degen, OAG, myasthenia gravis, MS, Bell's Palsy with tear involvement, or whatever, why the hell would I see an OD when I can see an OMD or neuro-ophthalmologist who can order an MRI, MRA, VEP, CT, PET, XR? Or who can read my bloodwork and understand what it means. Who can admit me into the hospital and visit me there if need-be. Who can order and interpret a bx report.

Medicine is comprehensive. An OD cannot do these things and has no business doing them.
 
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
ProZackMI said:
It's really sad that you have to resort an ad hominem type of attack, kid. Also, since it's unlikely you're a psychiatrist, clinical psychologist, licensed professional counselor, or licensed clinical social worker, it's illegal for you to diagnose a disorder like major depression.

At least I made you laugh :) You, likewise, made me laugh with your child-like naïveté. With professionalism like this, you'll make a fine "eye doctor", Doctor! :)
:thumbup:
 
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amazing, the pre-opts can be just as relentless as the pre-meds! :)

Please don't be hating on ProZack, in truth he has shown himself to be a relative friend here. While his lengthy opinions may rub the wrong way at times, they are far from malicious. If anything, the posting history of his on the optomety forum demonstrates that optometry's big problem here is its relative isolation from other professions in its training. True, optometry students will interact with ophthalmology at times, but the issue is that other than the ophthalmologists, MD's don't know who and what we are, and are often suspicous of us. In medical school, students are taught that if they have a patient with some ocular issue they themselves are not comfortable treating, then refer the patient to ophthalmology. Optometry is just not on the radar.

In a way, ProZack's comments here today continue to reflect this reality, but can he really be blamed? As mentioned, the only encountered optometry during his training in a retail type enviroment with an OD that did not even know what a CVA was!
 
lillytwig said:
thats right! the point here being that barbers did not invent dentistry, nor does dentistry have its roots strongly imbedded in a barber shop. assistance/hygiene is probably a more reasonable spin-off from barbers than is dentistry. CCSN in las vegas has a pretty cool museum of dentistry, should anyone EVER have a spare moment while in town.

The point is that all modern western professions have their origins in one of the relatively modern european trade guilds that trained members by apprenticeships. Surgeons, including dental surgeons, arose from the barbers guild, physicians from the from a separate guild that trained medical practioners. Ever wonder why UK medical students recieve a MBBS, bachelor of medicine/bachelor of surgery? Because physicians and surgeons came from different guilds. Its the same reason why today in the UK you would address your PCP as "doctor," and your surgeon as "mister/misses."
 
so then, after all of this arguement, and the obvious debate over whether or not dental or optometry are from "medical roots", can someone tell me why dentists, WHO ARE NOT PHYSICIANS AND HAVE EQUAL DEGREE STATUS TO ODS AND DPMS, are exempt from this...
 
ProZackMI said:
It's like I said above, an OD knows a hell of a lot about the eye and how to treat ocular conditions, but primary care medicine is much more than that. What may appear to be something ocular might be something more insidious (e.g., neurological, neoplastic, vascular, etc.). MOST ODs do not serve as primary care providers in the real world, do they? Isn't it true that most refract or do a combo refraction and basic, minor ocular care? If I, as a patient, have a true medical problem like proliferative diabetic retinopathy mac degen, OAG, myasthenia gravis, MS, Bell's Palsy with tear involvement, or whatever, why the hell would I see an OD when I can see an OMD or neuro-ophthalmologist who can order an MRI, MRA, VEP, CT, PET, XR? Or who can read my bloodwork and understand what it means. Who can admit me into the hospital and visit me there if need-be. Who can order and interpret a bx report.

Medicine is comprehensive. An OD cannot do these things and has no business doing them.
Hey Zack. In the past you and I have had our disagreements, but I would now agree with the previous posters who wrote that your comments are completely different today than they were several months ago. Now, I find myself mostly agreeing with what you are saying. I do, however, disagree to some extent with the above quoted post. Unless I completely misunderstand the role of primary care, OD's do, in fact, serve as primary care in the real world. Yes, it is true that the vast majority of the patients we see have very little if any ocular problems other than refractive error. It is also true,however, that OD's are often times the first provider to diagnose diabetes in patients. I also understand your belief that if you have proliferative diabetic retinopathy, OAG, myasthenia gravis, Bell's Palsey, etc you wouldn't necessarily want to go to the optometrist. The fact of the matter is that patients don't necessarily know that's what is going on. Patients will come in to my office with a complaint that they have decreased vision assuming it is due to their glasses. When I diagnose PDR with CSME as the cause of the decrease acuity and refer them to a retina specialist, am I not providing the same level of care they would receive at the general OMD office? Wouldn't that be considered primary care?

Optometrists diagnose and treat open angle glaucoma all the time. It's not like those patients knew they had glaucoma when they first came in. Should they be sent to an OMD? I guess that all depends on the comfort level of the OD. In my office we work very closely with a glaucoma specialist, but we follow those patients which repond well to topical therapy, which is a fairly high percentage. As for ordering tests like MRI's, OD's can actually order those. In my practice, just as it was in the ophthalmology practice I used to work in, the radiologist reads the film not the doctor who ordered the test. In fact, in the real world, it takes a special request to actually get a copy of the film. All we get is the interpretation report which is a good thing since after being out of residency for 15 years, I doubt the OMD's I used to work for felt comfortable reading them.

An example of what can happen in an OD office I can give you is a 29 year old female with recent onset of double vision. She felt that there was something wrong with her glasses. After my examination, I diagnosed an isolated sixth nerve palsey and sent her for blood work to rule out diabetes. When she returned to my office 2 weeks later, her bloodwork was normal, but now she was having ipsilateral numbness on her face. I therefore sent her for an MRI. The MRI report initially came back normal, but after discussing the case with the radiologist he did a little research and ending up finding a small plaque at the nucleus of the 6th nerve right where the fibers of the 7th nerve wrap around it. He felt the finding was consistent with MS and I sent her back to her physician who treated her. Now I am not going to say that OD's are qualified to manage MS, nor do I believe the majority of us truely understand the disease, but does that really matter? We are qualified to provide the level of care necessary to uncover the condition and refer to someone who can manage the disease.

I guess my point in this long post is to say that I do agree with most of what you have posted in this thread, except that OD's do provide primary care. We may not be qualified to manage some of the conditions we diagnose in the course of an eye examination but then again the ophthalmologist isn't managing diabetes, hypertension, MS, etc in his chair either.
 
True Story....

About 4 or 5 months ago I was applying for a summer job at a local restaurant. When I sat down for the interview with the manager one of the questions he asked me was "what are your future career goals?" I responded by telling him that I was going to Optometry School at OSU in the fall. He then paused for a second and then looked at me and said, "Wow, that’s great. Now a days kids have so many problems with their teeth, it seems like that would be a great field" My Reaction... :eek:

Kind of an ironic story based on the discussion we are having. The argument being made is that the term "eye doctor" is some how confusing to the public, and that we should only use the term "Optometrist". Now I bet you if I would have told him that I was going to "Eye Doctor School" he would have known exactly what I met.
 
drgregory said:
so then, after all of this arguement, and the obvious debate over whether or not dental or optometry are from "medical roots", can someone tell me why dentists, WHO ARE NOT PHYSICIANS AND HAVE EQUAL DEGREE STATUS TO ODS AND DPMS, are exempt from this...

Political clout, no doubt. The American Dental Ass'n is bigger and more influencial than the AOA. That's my guess. Point of correction, however, optometrists are not considered to be of equal status to dentists and podiatrists. In most states, podiatrists are considered "physicians and surgeons of the foot" and given unfettered prescriptive authority, have the ability to order, interpret labs and diagnostic imaging, and in many cases, have full or partial attending hospital/surg privis.

Dentists have unfettered PA in most states, but unless they are OMFS, do not have hospital privileges, but can, I believe, order labs, and we all know that they do x-rays, etc.
 
prettygreeneyes said:
I admire your passion and fire... but you aren't helping our cause. ProZack is a very educated member of SDN. Go through and read some of his past posts, and you will see that he usually presents a fairly unbiased opinion. He does have some past posts that were somewhat negative towards optometry, but we've all seemed to make up since then.

If you don't like his arguments, present specific reasons, backed up with facts, why you believe he is wrong... but don't attack him personally. Hopefully everyone will afford you the same respect.


PGE, although ProZack is a very educated member of SDN, his attitude toward optometry oscillates. Lately he has made some remarks such as "Yes, a PharmD can, and often does, go by the title "doctor", but most don't need to inflate their egos like optometrists and chiropractors who insist on the title, even outside work-settings." on the pharmacy forum. He adds insult to injury with these random generalizations on OTHER professions forums ABOUT optometrists.
 
Ben Chudner said:
Hey Zack. In the past you and I have had our disagreements, but I would now agree with the previous posters who wrote that your comments are completely different today than they were several months ago. Now, I find myself mostly agreeing with what you are saying. I do, however, disagree to some extent with the above quoted post. Unless I completely misunderstand the role of primary care, OD's do, in fact, serve as primary care in the real world. Yes, it is true that the vast majority of the patients we see have very little if any ocular problems other than refractive error. It is also true,however, that OD's are often times the first provider to diagnose diabetes in patients. I also understand your belief that if you have proliferative diabetic retinopathy, OAG, myasthenia gravis, Bell's Palsey, etc you wouldn't necessarily want to go to the optometrist. The fact of the matter is that patients don't necessarily know that's what is going on. Patients will come in to my office with a complaint that they have decreased vision assuming it is due to their glasses. When I diagnose PDR with CSME as the cause of the decrease acuity and refer them to a retina specialist, am I not providing the same level of care they would receive at the general OMD office? Wouldn't that be considered primary care?

Optometrists diagnose and treat open angle glaucoma all the time. It's not like those patients knew they had glaucoma when they first came in. Should they be sent to an OMD? I guess that all depends on the comfort level of the OD. In my office we work very closely with a glaucoma specialist, but we follow those patients which repond well to topical therapy, which is a fairly high percentage. As for ordering tests like MRI's, OD's can actually order those. In my practice, just as it was in the ophthalmology practice I used to work in, the radiologist reads the film not the doctor who ordered the test. In fact, in the real world, it takes a special request to actually get a copy of the film. All we get is the interpretation report which is a good thing since after being out of residency for 15 years, I doubt the OMD's I used to work for felt comfortable reading them.

An example of what can happen in an OD office I can give you is a 29 year old female with recent onset of double vision. She felt that there was something wrong with her glasses. After my examination, I diagnosed an isolated sixth nerve palsey and sent her for blood work to rule out diabetes. When she returned to my office 2 weeks later, her bloodwork was normal, but now she was having ipsilateral numbness on her face. I therefore sent her for an MRI. The MRI report initially came back normal, but after discussing the case with the radiologist he did a little research and ending up finding a small plaque at the nucleus of the 6th nerve right where the fibers of the 7th nerve wrap around it. He felt the finding was consistent with MS and I sent her back to her physician who treated her. Now I am not going to say that OD's are qualified to manage MS, nor do I believe the majority of us truely understand the disease, but does that really matter? We are qualified to provide the level of care necessary to uncover the condition and refer to someone who can manage the disease.

I guess my point in this long post is to say that I do agree with most of what you have posted in this thread, except that OD's do provide primary care. We may not be qualified to manage some of the conditions we diagnose in the course of an eye examination but then again the ophthalmologist isn't managing diabetes, hypertension, MS, etc in his chair either.


Ben,
You make some valid points. I suppose it's a matter of semantics and what constitutes "primary care". In one of my posts, I made a point of saying "primary care optometrist", which is a striking constrast from primary care physician. Many of the pre-opts here don't realize the distinction, or truly believe that there is no difference and that an "eye doctor" is an eye doctor. However, a physician is, for the most part, able to treat the patient systemically and has a comprehensive training in medicine, not just optometry or psychology or dentistry (etc.).

In MI, as with many states, ODs have a very limited scope of practice. They have TPA and DPA and I believe they can order some labs, but I know that they cannot order MRIs or XRs or PETs or CTs or any diagnostic imaging here. You're right, most MDs can't interpret the actual film, and it requires a radiologist to do so, but by law, I'm allowed to order imaging and understand the report when I'm reading it.

Based on your examples, yes, you are a primary care provider/optometrist. You more than just refract. I've learned a great deal about optometry the last few months and I can see that I still have much to learn. As with your examples, as a physician, specifically, a psychiatrist, I have examined patients (yes, we do physical exams too) and discovered abnormalities and diagnosed conditions like IDDM, NIDDM, COPD, systolic murmurs, PDR (AV nicking and vitreal bleeds), hydroceles, HTN, vaginitis, etc. If I was still in IM, I would feel comfortable treating some of these conditions, but now that I'm in psych, I refer to others for tx despite the fact I was the one who made the dx.

When I was 12, I remember it was my dentist (actually, orthodontist), who noticed my inflammed tonsils and recommended I see my doctor due to tonsilitis.

I think my point was, an OD is an excellent source for a primary dx, but once that has been established, a prudent patient should see an MD and a prudent optometrist should refer to an MD of the appropriate specialty. Now, where ODs differ from "quacks" like chiros is that you almost never hear of ODs practicing outside the scope of their training. In MI, the Department of Community Health, burea of health professional licensing, reports frequent abuses from chiros attempting to treat diabetes, COPD, asthma, depression, ADHD, anxiety, CANCER, IMPOTENCE, etc. Yep, chiropractors! Three years of chiro school with no residency and you're qualified to be a primary care PHYSICIAN. Talk about scary.

You never see that kind of abuse from ODs who know seem to know their professional boundaries and refer when outside their competence. Even as an MD, I refer when it's outside my scope of knowledge and training.
 
blazenmadison said:
PGE, although ProZack is a very educated member of SDN, his attitude toward optometry oscillates. Lately he has made some remarks such as "Yes, a PharmD can, and often does, go by the title "doctor", but most don't need to inflate their egos like optometrists and chiropractors who insist on the title, even outside work-settings." on the pharmacy forum. He adds insult to injury with these random generalizations on OTHER professions forums ABOUT optometrists.


Yes, and your point is? While optometrists infrequently engage in unethtical behaviour, UNLIKE chiros and naturopaths, they FREQUENTLY engage in self laudatory behaviour like insisting on calling themselves "doctor" even outside of the work setting, LIKE chiros and naturos. You never see this with PhD psychologists, vets, or even dentists (usually not).

You do see it with chiros, optos, naturopaths, and...oddly enough, EdDs (Doctors of Education). I'm not sure why, I've seen this, and many other physicians see it. My girlfriend is a PharmD and MPH. She never insists on being called "doctor" outside of her hospital, and even in the hospital, is down-to-Earth. I'm an MD-JD and I don't insist on "doctor" outside of work. My colleagues are all MDs, DOs, or PhDs and never insist on being called "doctor" outside of work. My dentist is Dave and my vet is Angela, or "Dr. Angie" to the kids. She never insists on her clients calling her "doctor". My PCP is Janine and I'm Zack. However, my optometrist is DOCTOR M. Why? I don't know. She's in her early 40s and I'm 35. It can't an age thing. She knows I'm an MD, but I always just use my first and last name, never "Doctor". I'm not sure if she feels intimidated by me, or has a low self esteem, but I find that all of the optos I see in real life, and even most on SDN, insist on being called "doctor" or append OD or reference "doctor" somewhere in their nickname. You typically don't see this with other health care professionals. And, yes, I used to have MD, JD after my name. I did this to identify my profession, but took it off as I myself felt it was too self laudatory.

So, yes, I have made this comment about inflated egos before. Nothing new here. I believe it's a valid point.
 
Well said BenChudner! Prozack may have the best of intentions here, but the fact remains that, as an outsider to eyecare, it is hard to see how difficult the field really is. Where something as simple as blurry vision, could be potentially, any of a hundred blinding conditions. Where using pt history is often totally useless, and objective findings are your best friends. Nobody has ever implied that we were equal to a primary care physician (or any physician), yet Prozack continues to bring issues like this up. It's called fear-mongering, I hear this all the time in the OMD board, the claims that we can't do this or that, ring true for optometry. But if I make the same claims for Prozack, or any other MD (non-ophth), who renders care to the eye, and has no business doing it, then this is all OK!? I wonder Prozack, how do you know if it was truly an "infectious conjunctivitis"? Because it went away when you prescribed ABx? Or because you were able to truly assess the condition?

OK, prozack, I'll agree to no longer use the title doctor (that which I have rightfully earned), when you agree to never, ever render care to the eye, or make any authoritative comment (in public, or private, or with patients) regarding an eye's status. You maybe trying to honestly educate us OD's about what our role is in healthcare, but I've definetely got a better perspective. Anyway, I propose as a group, OD's should wholeheartedly, CRUSH this ridiculous bill for what it is. Self-serving trash that the AMA wants us to think is in the patients best interest. Otherwise, my "Transparency in Eyecare Bill" would have to follow to protect patient welfare.
 
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ProZackMI said:
So, yes, I have made this comment about inflated egos before. Nothing new here. I believe it's a valid point.
People everywhere make these kinds of ego comparisons, so it's difficult to say that those with this job tend to have big egos, and people with these jobs seem to be more low key...you happen to be an MD with a non-inflated ego, but for all we know, you could be the exception to the norm in that respect. Stereotypes don't ever really serve any useful purpose, do they? People are rarely what they seem. It'd be the better thing just to quit using them everywhere IMHO.
 
ProZackMI said:
In MI, as with many states, ODs have a very limited scope of practice. They have TPA and DPA and I believe they can order some labs, but I know that they cannot order MRIs or XRs or PETs or CTs or any diagnostic imaging here. You're right, most MDs can't interpret the actual film, and it requires a radiologist to do so, but by law, I'm allowed to order imaging and understand the report when I'm reading it.

I think my point was, an OD is an excellent source for a primary dx, but once that has been established, a prudent patient should see an MD and a prudent optometrist should refer to an MD of the appropriate specialty. Now, where ODs differ from "quacks" like chiros is that you almost never hear of ODs practicing outside the scope of their training. In MI, the Department of Community Health, burea of health professional licensing, reports frequent abuses from chiros attempting to treat diabetes, COPD, asthma, depression, ADHD, anxiety, CANCER, IMPOTENCE, etc. Yep, chiropractors! Three years of chiro school with no residency and you're qualified to be a primary care PHYSICIAN. Talk about scary.

You never see that kind of abuse from ODs who know seem to know their professional boundaries and refer when outside their competence. Even as an MD, I refer when it's outside my scope of knowledge and training.


Excellent post. I think the only part of your earlier post that was up for debate was
ProZackMI said:
MOST ODs do not serve as primary care providers in the real world, do they? Isn't it true that most refract or do a combo refraction and basic, minor ocular care? If I, as a patient, have a true medical problem like proliferative diabetic retinopathy mac degen, OAG, myasthenia gravis, MS, Bell's Palsy with tear involvement, or whatever, why the hell would I see an OD when I can see an OMD or neuro-ophthalmologist who can order an MRI, MRA, VEP, CT, PET, XR? Or who can read my bloodwork and understand what it means. Who can admit me into the hospital and visit me there if need-be. Who can order and interpret a bx report.

Lots of ODs treat OAG as long as the topical meds work (the refer for surgery after that point). DR is monitered until surgery is needed, refered, then brought back to continue monitoring. Ophthalmologists techinically CAN do more than ODs in terms of systemic diseases, but in private practice they don't often do that. The general health is handled by the internist (or FP, whatever) while the optho. just handles ocular health (something that most ODs can do with similar skill until surgery is needed).

I think your experience here on SDN is an excellent example of what optometry needs: positive exposure.
 
ProZackMI said:
I think my point was, an OD is an excellent source for a primary dx, but once that has been established, a prudent patient should see an MD and a prudent optometrist should refer to an MD of the appropriate specialty.
Absolutely, and doesn't this equate OD with primary care? OD's make the primary diagnosis and refer to the appropriate provider for treatment if it is outside their scope of practice or even outside their comfort zone. This is exacly the same thing that a large percentage of general ophthalmologists do. If a cataract surgeon sees diabetic retinopathy in an undiagnosed diabetic, they refer those patients to their PCP to manage the diabetes. If the retinopathy requires treatment, most general OMD's I know refer to the local retina specialist, or the one in their practice. Can they perform the PRP? Or course, but a retina specialist is more appropriate. I've said it before that the average cataract surgeon in private practice in a metropolitan area for the most part practices optometry with the added bonus that they can perform cataract surgery. They are not performing vitrectomies, trabs, blephs, etc. They refer out for those. I have worked in ophthalmology offices and can honestly say that most OD's could walk into those clinics and work the OMD's schedule with no problems. The only difference would be that when a patient needed cataract surgery or yag cap, the OD would have to refer to a surgeon rather than perform the procedure themself. And because I believe cataract surgery to be secondary care, I would argue that if OD's are not primary care providers, then general OMD's are not either. And if that is true, then I have no idea who performs primary eye care in the US.
 
ProZackMI said:
Political clout, no doubt. The American Dental Ass'n is bigger and more influencial than the AOA. That's my guess. Point of correction, however, optometrists are not considered to be of equal status to dentists and podiatrists. In most states, podiatrists are considered "physicians and surgeons of the foot" and given unfettered prescriptive authority, have the ability to order, interpret labs and diagnostic imaging, and in many cases, have full or partial attending hospital/surg privis.

Dentists have unfettered PA in most states, but unless they are OMFS, do not have hospital privileges, but can, I believe, order labs, and we all know that they do x-rays, etc.

so what im saying is that a non-resident trained OD has equal amount of training to a non-resident trained DDS. yet all DDSs are exempt from this bill. im not against everyone representing themselves as who they are, its just that this bill would allow DDSs to represent who they are not - physicians.
 
ProZackMI said:
Yes, and your point is? While optometrists infrequently engage in unethtical behaviour, UNLIKE chiros and naturopaths, they FREQUENTLY engage in self laudatory behaviour like insisting on calling themselves "doctor" even outside of the work setting, LIKE chiros and naturos. You never see this with PhD psychologists, vets, or even dentists (usually not).

You do see it with chiros, optos, naturopaths, and...oddly enough, EdDs (Doctors of Education). I'm not sure why, I've seen this, and many other physicians see it. My girlfriend is a PharmD and MPH. She never insists on being called "doctor" outside of her hospital, and even in the hospital, is down-to-Earth. I'm an MD-JD and I don't insist on "doctor" outside of work. My colleagues are all MDs, DOs, or PhDs and never insist on being called "doctor" outside of work. My dentist is Dave and my vet is Angela, or "Dr. Angie" to the kids. She never insists on her clients calling her "doctor". My PCP is Janine and I'm Zack. However, my optometrist is DOCTOR M. Why? I don't know. She's in her early 40s and I'm 35. It can't an age thing. She knows I'm an MD, but I always just use my first and last name, never "Doctor". I'm not sure if she feels intimidated by me, or has a low self esteem, but I find that all of the optos I see in real life, and even most on SDN, insist on being called "doctor" or append OD or reference "doctor" somewhere in their nickname. You typically don't see this with other health care professionals. And, yes, I used to have MD, JD after my name. I did this to identify my profession, but took it off as I myself felt it was too self laudatory.

So, yes, I have made this comment about inflated egos before. Nothing new here. I believe it's a valid point.

Dude, this is SOOOO true. My optometrist always goes by Dr. Fontaine and now that I'm a vet, I made her arrogant ass call me Dr. Zuege. I don't know what kind of training it takes to be an optometrist, but try your ass in vet school. My optometrist didn't even know what a tapetum lucidum was. For the most part, they seem like technicians to me. I don't consider them real doctors like vets, MDs, dentists, or even PHDs in the sciences.

Sorry but you guys are techs. Man, I know there's this AuD degree I've seen, I think even at Purdue. What the hell now audiologists are doctors? HAHA. Even physical therapy peeps are doctors. Dude, get over yourself and realize your techs and leave the doctoring to those who have earned it, namely vets and doctors, not techs.

Oh, and a law degree is like technically a masters degree it's not a doctorate. lawyers dont even have a real doctorate since they dont get called doctor. what a joke. lawyers are idiots, every lawyer is a freakin' ***** who couldn't handle it even in business school. chiropracters are a freaking joke too. psychiatrists are a joke too. all you guys do is push pills on ppl. wtf do you need medical school and a residency for that? if your depressed, see a freaking social worker and dont waste time a shrink who is probably crazier than you.

You alls need therapy.
 
PBEA said:
Well said BenChudner! Prozack may have the best of intentions here, but the fact remains that, as an outsider to eyecare, it is hard to see how difficult the field really is. Where something as simple as blurry vision, could be potentially, any of a hundred blinding conditions. Where using pt history is often totally useless, and objective findings are your best friends. Nobody has ever implied that we were equal to a primary care physician (or any physician), yet Prozack continues to bring issues like this up. It's called fear-mongering, I hear this all the time in the OMD board, the claims that we can't do this or that, ring true for optometry. But if I make the same claims for Prozack, or any other MD (non-ophth), who renders care to the eye, and has no business doing it, then this is all OK!? I wonder Prozack, how do you know if it was truly an "infectious conjunctivitis"? Because it went away when you prescribed ABx? Or because you were able to truly assess the condition?

OK, prozack, I'll agree to no longer use the title doctor (that which I have rightfully earned), when you agree to never, ever render care to the eye, or make any authoritative comment (in public, or private, or with patients) regarding an eye's status. You maybe trying to honestly educate us OD's about what our role is in healthcare, but I've definetely got a better perspective. Anyway, I propose as a group, OD's should wholeheartedly, CRUSH this ridiculous bill for what it is. Self-serving trash that the AMA wants us to think is in the patients best interest. Otherwise, my "Transparency in Eyecare Bill" would have to follow to protect patient welfare.


I hope you can't use the title doctor since your not one. WHICH ONE IS BETTER, THE ONE ON THE LEFT OR THE ONE ON THE RIGHT! HAHAHAH. WHAT A FREAKING JOKE. Dude, lose the 'tude since no one respects optometrists. Go to medical school if you want to be a real doctor, or better yet, VET school...if your ass could even get in and i doubt it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
DoggyDoc80 said:
Dude, this is SOOOO true. My optometrist always goes by Dr. Fontaine and now that I'm a vet, I made her arrogant ass call me Dr. Zuege. I don't know what kind of training it takes to be an optometrist, but try your ass in vet school. My optometrist didn't even know what a tapetum lucidum was. For the most part, they seem like technicians to me. I don't consider them real doctors like vets, MDs, dentists, or even PHDs in the sciences.

Sorry but you guys are techs. Man, I know there's this AuD degree I've seen, I think even at Purdue. What the hell now audiologists are doctors? HAHA. Even physical therapy peeps are doctors. Dude, get over yourself and realize your techs and leave the doctoring to those who have earned it, namely vets and doctors, not techs.

Oh, and a law degree is like technically a masters degree it's not a doctorate. lawyers dont even have a real doctorate since they dont get called doctor. what a joke. lawyers are idiots, every lawyer is a freakin' ***** who couldn't handle it even in business school. chiropracters are a freaking joke too. psychiatrists are a joke too. all you guys do is push pills on ppl. wtf do you need medical school and a residency for that? if your depressed, see a freaking social worker and dont waste time a shrink who is probably crazier than you.

You alls need therapy.

Some people need to learn that respect is a two-way street. That's all I have to say about that.
 
DoggyDoc80 said:
Dude, this is SOOOO true. My optometrist always goes by Dr. Fontaine and now that I'm a vet, I made her arrogant ass call me Dr. Zuege. I don't know what kind of training it takes to be an optometrist, but try your ass in vet school. My optometrist didn't even know what a tapetum lucidum was. For the most part, they seem like technicians to me. I don't consider them real doctors like vets, MDs, dentists, or even PHDs in the sciences.

Sorry but you guys are techs. Man, I know there's this AuD degree I've seen, I think even at Purdue. What the hell now audiologists are doctors? HAHA. Even physical therapy peeps are doctors. Dude, get over yourself and realize your techs and leave the doctoring to those who have earned it, namely vets and doctors, not techs.

Oh, and a law degree is like technically a masters degree it's not a doctorate. lawyers dont even have a real doctorate since they dont get called doctor. what a joke. lawyers are idiots, every lawyer is a freakin' ***** who couldn't handle it even in business school. chiropracters are a freaking joke too. psychiatrists are a joke too. all you guys do is push pills on ppl. wtf do you need medical school and a residency for that? if your depressed, see a freaking social worker and dont waste time a shrink who is probably crazier than you.

You alls need therapy.
Well, I guess that settles it.:laugh:
 
DoggyDoc80 said:
Dude, this is SOOOO true. My optometrist always goes by Dr. Fontaine and now that I'm a vet, I made her arrogant ass call me Dr. Zuege. I don't know what kind of training it takes to be an optometrist, but try your ass in vet school. My optometrist didn't even know what a tapetum lucidum was. For the most part, they seem like technicians to me. I don't consider them real doctors like vets, MDs, dentists, or even PHDs in the sciences.

Sorry but you guys are techs. Man, I know there's this AuD degree I've seen, I think even at Purdue. What the hell now audiologists are doctors? HAHA. Even physical therapy peeps are doctors. Dude, get over yourself and realize your techs and leave the doctoring to those who have earned it, namely vets and doctors, not techs.

Oh, and a law degree is like technically a masters degree it's not a doctorate. lawyers dont even have a real doctorate since they dont get called doctor. what a joke. lawyers are idiots, every lawyer is a freakin' ***** who couldn't handle it even in business school. chiropracters are a freaking joke too. psychiatrists are a joke too. all you guys do is push pills on ppl. wtf do you need medical school and a residency for that? if your depressed, see a freaking social worker and dont waste time a shrink who is probably crazier than you.

You alls need therapy.

I read a lot of funny comments regarding this topic so far, but DoggyDoc80's post made me burst out in laughter. :laugh:

Zack, take a deep breath and a 5-minute walk before you respond to this "real doctor"...
 
DoggyDoc80 said:
Dude, this is SOOOO true. My optometrist always goes by Dr. Fontaine and now that I'm a vet, I made her arrogant ass call me Dr. Zuege. I don't know what kind of training it takes to be an optometrist, but try your ass in vet school. My optometrist didn't even know what a tapetum lucidum was. For the most part, they seem like technicians to me. I don't consider them real doctors like vets, MDs, dentists, or even PHDs in the sciences.

Sorry but you guys are techs. Man, I know there's this AuD degree I've seen, I think even at Purdue. What the hell now audiologists are doctors? HAHA. Even physical therapy peeps are doctors. Dude, get over yourself and realize your techs and leave the doctoring to those who have earned it, namely vets and doctors, not techs.

Oh, and a law degree is like technically a masters degree it's not a doctorate. lawyers dont even have a real doctorate since they dont get called doctor. what a joke. lawyers are idiots, every lawyer is a freakin' ***** who couldn't handle it even in business school. chiropracters are a freaking joke too. psychiatrists are a joke too. all you guys do is push pills on ppl. wtf do you need medical school and a residency for that? if your depressed, see a freaking social worker and dont waste time a shrink who is probably crazier than you.

You alls need therapy.

Man...calm down and hug a hamster or something :smuggrin: -> :scared: -> :oops: -> :)
 
DoggyDoc80 said:
I hope you can't use the title doctor since your not one. WHICH ONE IS BETTER, THE ONE ON THE LEFT OR THE ONE ON THE RIGHT! HAHAHAH. WHAT A FREAKING JOKE. Dude, lose the 'tude since no one respects optometrists. Go to medical school if you want to be a real doctor, or better yet, VET school...if your ass could even get in and i doubt it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


I think Dr.Phil is in trouble if this law passes. He will have to find a new name for his TV show or start using a disclaimer. "I have a PHD but I'm not a "real" doctor. I just play one on TV" :laugh: :laugh:
 
DoggyDoc80 said:
I hope you can't use the title doctor since your not one. WHICH ONE IS BETTER, THE ONE ON THE LEFT OR THE ONE ON THE RIGHT! HAHAHAH. WHAT A FREAKING JOKE. Dude, lose the 'tude since no one respects optometrists. Go to medical school if you want to be a real doctor, or better yet, VET school...if your ass could even get in and i doubt it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


ummm it's which is better..one or two! i don't know what kind of optometrist you went to but every eye doc knows it's which is better...one or two.

please don't try to predict what other professional programs we could or could not get it to. you don't know us, and many of us could have gotten into any professional program we wanted. we decided to go to optometry school because we like what optometrists do


and lawyers get a JD, so it is not a MS degree
 
DoggyDoc80 said:
I hope you can't use the title doctor since your not one. WHICH ONE IS BETTER, THE ONE ON THE LEFT OR THE ONE ON THE RIGHT! HAHAHAH. WHAT A FREAKING JOKE. Dude, lose the 'tude since no one respects optometrists. Go to medical school if you want to be a real doctor, or better yet, VET school...if your ass could even get in and i doubt it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I see you graduated from Mississippi State - great vet school from what I hear. Congrats! But perhaps part of your negative feelings towards optometry is related to Mississippi being one of the states lagging behind in its scope of practice. It's getting better but still has a ways to go - especially compared with some of its neighboring states.

I'm sorry that you have such harsh feelings towards so many other professions but hopefully as you get out into the world you will realize we all play an integral part in society.
 
DoggyDoc80 said:
Dude, this is SOOOO true. My optometrist always goes by Dr. Fontaine and now that I'm a vet, I made her arrogant ass call me Dr. Zuege. I don't know what kind of training it takes to be an optometrist, but try your ass in vet school. My optometrist didn't even know what a tapetum lucidum was. For the most part, they seem like technicians to me. I don't consider them real doctors like vets, MDs, dentists, or even PHDs in the sciences.

Sorry but you guys are techs. Man, I know there's this AuD degree I've seen, I think even at Purdue. What the hell now audiologists are doctors? HAHA. Even physical therapy peeps are doctors. Dude, get over yourself and realize your techs and leave the doctoring to those who have earned it, namely vets and doctors, not techs.

Oh, and a law degree is like technically a masters degree it's not a doctorate. lawyers dont even have a real doctorate since they dont get called doctor. what a joke. lawyers are idiots, every lawyer is a freakin' ***** who couldn't handle it even in business school. chiropracters are a freaking joke too. psychiatrists are a joke too. all you guys do is push pills on ppl. wtf do you need medical school and a residency for that? if your depressed, see a freaking social worker and dont waste time a shrink who is probably crazier than you.

You alls need therapy.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Apparently the "God" complex isn't exclusive to medical school...
 
DoggyDoc80 said:
I hope you can't use the title doctor since your not one. WHICH ONE IS BETTER, THE ONE ON THE LEFT OR THE ONE ON THE RIGHT! HAHAHAH. WHAT A FREAKING JOKE. Dude, lose the 'tude since no one respects optometrists. Go to medical school if you want to be a real doctor, or better yet, VET school...if your ass could even get in and i doubt it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Duuuuuudddddddeeeee!!!!!!! What are you smoking?

Oh and, unless I'm mistaken, vets would also have to clarify that they are not a medical doctor! Now that's fargin' hysterical!!

Dr. : Hi, I'm Dr. Doggy, I'm not a medical doctor, what can I help you with?

Pt. : I know your not a medical doctor jackass, you're a veterenarian, now can you fix my dog, or what?

I actually covered the tapetum lucidum, when I was dissecting fetal pigs, in a AP Biology class during high school. Needless to say, that it isn't a highlight in any OD curriculum. You are troll, and should be discarded from this forum.
 
ProZackMI said:
Yes, and your point is? While optometrists infrequently engage in unethtical behaviour, UNLIKE chiros and naturopaths, they FREQUENTLY engage in self laudatory behaviour like insisting on calling themselves "doctor" even outside of the work setting, LIKE chiros and naturos. You never see this with PhD psychologists, vets, or even dentists (usually not).

You do see it with chiros, optos, naturopaths, and...oddly enough, EdDs (Doctors of Education). I'm not sure why, I've seen this, and many other physicians see it. My girlfriend is a PharmD and MPH. She never insists on being called "doctor" outside of her hospital, and even in the hospital, is down-to-Earth. I'm an MD-JD and I don't insist on "doctor" outside of work. My colleagues are all MDs, DOs, or PhDs and never insist on being called "doctor" outside of work. My dentist is Dave and my vet is Angela, or "Dr. Angie" to the kids. She never insists on her clients calling her "doctor". My PCP is Janine and I'm Zack. However, my optometrist is DOCTOR M. Why? I don't know. She's in her early 40s and I'm 35. It can't an age thing. She knows I'm an MD, but I always just use my first and last name, never "Doctor". I'm not sure if she feels intimidated by me, or has a low self esteem, but I find that all of the optos I see in real life, and even most on SDN, insist on being called "doctor" or append OD or reference "doctor" somewhere in their nickname. You typically don't see this with other health care professionals. And, yes, I used to have MD, JD after my name. I did this to identify my profession, but took it off as I myself felt it was too self laudatory.

So, yes, I have made this comment about inflated egos before. Nothing new here. I believe it's a valid point.

Look it is all about perception. Not one single medical doctor that I have seen was like...hi just call me "Steve" . Most introduce themselves as Dr. blah, blah, blah. Why should optometrist be any different? I see nothing wrong with coming into an exam room and introducing yourself to the patient as Dr. "A". I used to work for an optical chain and everyone called the optometrist--Dr. There was never a fuss...it is what it is.

Now if you all were at dinner with strangers and she introduced herself as Doctor "A", then maybe it is an issue with her, or anyone for that matter...maybe they just need to relax. The only way I see bringing it up outside of work is if you are asked what you do for a living, then saying I am an Optometrist/Eye Doctor would sound fine to me. But whatever...its just my personal opinion. When people work hard to obtain a position it can get alittle cut-throat. I had a undergrad professor snap at me on the first day of class freshmen year for calling her Mrs. __. She quickly and sharply corrected my by saying..."refer to me as and only as Dr._"
 
PBEA said:
Dr. : Hi, I'm Dr. Doggy, I'm not a medical doctor, what can I help you with?

Pt. : I know your not a medical doctor jackass, you're a veterenarian, now can you fix my dog, or what?

LOL!
 
blazenmadison said:
PGE, although ProZack is a very educated member of SDN, his attitude toward optometry oscillates. Lately he has made some remarks such as "Yes, a PharmD can, and often does, go by the title "doctor", but most don't need to inflate their egos like optometrists and chiropractors who insist on the title, even outside work-settings." on the pharmacy forum. He adds insult to injury with these random generalizations on OTHER professions forums ABOUT optometrists.

Hi blazen!!!

My comment to sweetzpassion was mostly to point out that ProZack isn't really an "enemy" of optometry... so there is no need to address him like one. Sometimes pre-optometry students (myself included... I guess I'm technically pre-opt until August 28th when school begins... unless you are pre-opt until you graduate!) have the necessary passion and fire, but don't have a whole lot of real world experience or exposure to the profession to be objective and realistic in their posts. (I'm not saying this is a bad thing... or that pre-opts like myself and others shouldn't post!)

I do know optometrists and chiropractors who do insist on being called "Doctor" outside of work. I have always addressed my providers, optometrist included, as "Doctor" outside of the office, mostly out of respect because 1. they are older than me 2. I don't know their first name anyway. I don't think I'll care one way or another if I'm called by my first name or Doctor when I'm out of school. I certainly wouldn't insist on it, but if I only have a professional relationship with some, (ie. they are only my patient...otherwise I don't know them from Adam) then if they feel comfortable calling me "Doctor Doe"... sure. If the relationship moved into a more casual one, it would be weird to always be called Doctor!

:D PGE
 
ProZackMI said:
wanted to make a points generally rather than specifically.

First, I am NOT trying to attack optometry. I am not a "hater" of optometry as that one misguided pre-optometry student said. I do not support a Bill that would preclude you from using an earned title (i.e., "doctor"). If you have read any of my posts, you'd see that. In addition, I fully admit that I'm an MD with training in internal med and psychiatry only. I'm NOT an ophthalmologist. Other than treating basic allergic or infectious conjunctivitis, I have absolutely NO experience in treating ocular pathology. Also, I fully admit that I have never been to optometry school and don't know what receiving an OD degree requires.

Second, I have nothing against optometry. Optometrists are well-educated professionals who serve a very vital and important role in health care. MANY (I don't know how many, but MANY) children, adolescents, and adults require some form of corrective lenses. Without these lenses, many of us with poor eyesight couldn't perform our jobs or operate a motor vehicle. I have worn glasses since I was 12 and I'm 35 years-old now. A LONG TIME. Optometrists examine eyes, prescribe lenses, and now, provide a full range of visual health services. I never disputed that. Over the last year or so, many posters on the OD forum have taught me a great deal about how much your profession has evolved and what optometry school actually entails. Prior to this epiphany, I admit, I assumed you were glorified techs who had inflated degrees with little or no medical training.

The ODs I've seen, throughout my life, have worked mostly retail/commerical and did not seem very medical to me. I remember during med school, I needed new glasses, and saw my regular optometrist who was asking me about school. I was talking about a woman who had a CVA and some residual hemiparesis and the optometrist said "What's a CVA?" This guy, however, insisted on being called DOCTOR and never let his patients/clients forget that. Things like that stuck in my craw and helped form my opinion that optometrists were non-medical quasi-professionals who loved the title "doctor". Many MD/DO colleagues shared my sentiment.

This forum has helped change my views and I have learned that I was very wrong. That does not change the fact that I have some valid concerns about optometry, which I have shared here. Specifically, my concern is regarding the language of this proposed Bill, taking us back to the topic.

Many of you were concerned that this Bill might pass and would therefore somehow hinder your quest for expanded scopes of practice or would set the practice of optometry back. Many of you erroneously assumed that if the Bill passed, it would limit your use of the title "doctor", etc. I read the language of the Bill and posted comments that I do not believe it will ever pass because it is way too ambiguous and vague. There are terms that are not clearly defined and there are obvious politically-motivated groups fueling the Bill (e.g., the AMA and ADA).

Why does this Bill exist in the first place? Does the big-bad-old AMA wanna hurt optometrists? NO. This Bill is only partially focused on optometry. What it really is geared for is ANY health care professional who INTENTIONALLY, DELIBERATELY, or NEGLIGENTLY induces the public (a barely literate public that is already incredibly naieve and uninformed) into thinking that he/she is a physician or possess training equivalent to a physician.

Using the title "doctor" is only a small portion of what the Bill would limit. However, remember one thing, UNLESS your state has a specific law that limits the title "doctor" to specific uses, ANYONE who holds an earned doctorate, either academic or professional, is allowed to use that title in any capacity he/she chooses. In most states, practitioners must qualifiy and clarify what kind of doctors they are (e.g., "Doctor of Optometry" or "O.D." versus "eye doctor"). Here, in MI, optometrists must advertise with O.D or "Doctor of Optometry" or "optometrist". In ads and on signs, they cannot use "eye doctor", by law. In common language, they can use "eye doctor", but this Bill would make that practice illegal as that usage would induce the public into thinking that "eye doctor" = MD/DO. Why? The public is comprised, by and large, of mostly uneducated, lazy people who don't know the difference and assume every "doctor" is an MD.

You shouldn't be so hung up on the title anyway. You can still be "Bob" and do your job effectively even if the Bill were to preclude you from using "doctor", which it won't. It's amazing how petty some people are when confronted with losing some "prestige".

This Bill is primarily aimed at chiros and naturopaths who are egregious in their deceptive practices. I've seen ads for chiros who are wearing white coats and stethoscopes. WTF? A chiro? Chiros love their "doctor" title and often use it without appending "D.C." or "Doctor of Chiropractic". Many chiros use chiropractic physician other terms like "sports medicine", "physical med and rehab specialist", "team physician", etc. Many naturopaths use the term physician and over-emphasize the title "doctor".

Where do ODs fall into this? The terms "eye doctor" and "optometric physician" ARE misleading, ambiguous, or deceptive. You may not think so, but in reality, no matter how good your schooling is, an OD is not a physician under most state medical practice statutes. Unless you want the liability of a "physician", and therefore, the malpractice insurance of one, be thankful you're not and don't use that term. Don't go around saying "eye doctor". Be specific and honest -- what's wrong with optometrist? Most patients are stupid, but even the dumb ones understand an orthodontist means braces and an optometrist means glasses/eyes.

Also, don't go outside your realm of knowledge or your scope of practice. PBEA went out of his way to explain how I, as an internist/psychiatrist, am an idiot when it comes to ocular dx and tx. At least I went to medical school and understand systemic medicine, not just ocular med/path. Increased IOP might be indicative of glaucoma or something else. ODs are not trained to read MRIs and CTs. You guys don't know how to read MRAs. You don't really know much about evoked potentials. You know what you know and know it well but there is MUCH more to practicing medicine as a PCP than what you know.

You went to school for 4 years to be an optometrist. Some of you did, or will do, a ONE year post OD "residency" (which is not a 24/7 on-call, in a hospital, working ALL floors residency). Physicians went to med school for 4 years (and by the way, this only gives us a medical education; we don't learn how to be doctors in med school, we learn how to be doctors in residency by rotating in OB-GYN, neuro, psych, path, emergency med, etc.) and then went through a 3-7 year residency learning our craft. We see hundreds of patients and rotate through a myriad of specialties learning the subtleties and nuances of diagnosis, treatment, appropriate pharmacological tx, diagnostic testing, radiology, test interpretation, patient-counseling, etc.

In 4 years, you learn how to be primary care optometrists, not physicians. There is simply no way your training is adequate or comprehensive enough to qualify you as a physician. I'm sorry to tell you this, but it's true. How many of you have had to go out into a waiting room and tell some parents their teenage son's suicide attempt was successful this time around? How many of you have ever had to tell someone they were dying or somone they loved had died?

That does not mean an OD is inferior to an MD. Far from it. You're just different. There is nothing wrong that. However, if you're proud of who you are and what you do, why compare yourself to dentists and doctors? Why not just be happy that you're an OD and do your job the best you can? This Bill won't pass, so don't worry about it. However, if you're honest and specific with your language, it shouldn't apply to you.

Peace,
Zack

I can understand where you are coming from looking at the Optometrists that you have personally known. But it is upsetting when you use those to represent an entire field and say that is why Optometrists don't need to be referring to themselves as "this or that". Since you are a med student, you might not have the desire to look into shadowing different optometrists.

That is why as pre-opts, we are encouraged to go out and look into the different modes of practice and specialties. Now as far as calling themselves "eye doctors" I have known it as just a way to describe in lay terms what an Optometrist is. Others do it even MD's...
Example-Career Day:
Dr-"Hi I am Dr._ _an otorhinolaryngologist"
School student-"What?!"
Dr-"Ear, Nose, and Throat Doctor (or ENT)"

Plus you would think the supporters of this bill would support placing "Eye" in front of Doctor...to clear up any mis-understanding.
 
DoggyDoc80 said:
Dude, this is SOOOO true. My optometrist always goes by Dr. Fontaine and now that I'm a vet, I made her arrogant ass call me Dr. Zuege. I don't know what kind of training it takes to be an optometrist, but try your ass in vet school. My optometrist didn't even know what a tapetum lucidum was. For the most part, they seem like technicians to me. I don't consider them real doctors like vets, MDs, dentists, or even PHDs in the sciences.

Sorry but you guys are techs. Man, I know there's this AuD degree I've seen, I think even at Purdue. What the hell now audiologists are doctors? HAHA. Even physical therapy peeps are doctors. Dude, get over yourself and realize your techs and leave the doctoring to those who have earned it, namely vets and doctors, not techs.

Oh, and a law degree is like technically a masters degree it's not a doctorate. lawyers dont even have a real doctorate since they dont get called doctor. what a joke. lawyers are idiots, every lawyer is a freakin' ***** who couldn't handle it even in business school. chiropracters are a freaking joke too. psychiatrists are a joke too. all you guys do is push pills on ppl. wtf do you need medical school and a residency for that? if your depressed, see a freaking social worker and dont waste time a shrink who is probably crazier than you.

You alls need therapy.

Wow. Here I was, sitting down to some Tivoed Stargate, sipping a nice big, iced tea, gonna check my e-mail, and I had to read this. Two Depeche Mode songs came to mind....

1) Enjoy the Silence..."Words are very...unnecessary...they can only do harm", and

2) People are People.

One thing you'll learn, as you get older, and experience life outside of school, is that some stereotypes are true, or have a scintilla of truth to them, but most are not true and that people who make sweeping generalizations about people or groups are often very insecure and self-conscious. I know many of my male homophobe patients who are actually closeted, or at the very least, bi-curious, and this drives them to womanize or act aggressively toward gay males in order to make themselves feel more masculine or straight. This is called Ego-dystonic homosexuality. Ego-dystonia also applies to other issues...which your post exemplifies.

I think your comments here were very childish and very rude to many different groups: psychiatrists, lawyers, optometrists (well, I won't defend the chiros!) who worked very hard for their professional identidies just like you did in veterinary school. Belittling others to make yourself look better doesn't really work in the real world. It just makes you look pathetic and even smaller than you think you are.

That being said, a law degree is a Juris Doctor or Doctor of Jurisprudence. When I graduated law school, my academic regalia (gown) was a doctoral gown with the three stripes on the sleeves just like my MD gown was. The MSU Law JD gown was no diff than the MD gown or the PhD gowns -- or DVM gowns (except in colour) -- they were all doctoral regalia. The JD gown came with a full doctoral hood including the doctoral tassel. My diploma reads DOCTOR of Jurisprudence, NOT JURIS MASTER. A law degree is a doctorate just like an optometry degree is a doctorate and just like a vet degree is a doctorate. To believe otherwise is not only misinformed, but ignorant.

Also, lawyers are among the brightest and most ethical folks I've ever experienced in the professional world. Law school was much more like a true graduate degree than medical school. Med school was very difficult, but it was, by and large, very similar to undergrad...memorization and regurgitation. It was not until residency where I actually learned how to apply the knowledge I learned in med school to actual facts. This is why residency is called "graduate medical education". However, in law school, from day one, students not only learn a body of knowledge (the law), but how to apply it to facts and think critically and analyze those facts in context with the law. This type of critical thinking is often unknown in many professional programs.

Lawyers are maligned by everyone -- especially physicians, but the truth is, most lawyers are very bright and highly ethical folks. Not all of them are out to make a buck and screw everyone. There are always the exceptions.

I will agree with you about many psychiatrists being "crazy". :) I know I've been told I'm a few fries short of a Happy Meal, but it's all good, right?

So, Dr. Zack's Rx for DoggyDoc80: take two Xanax-laden Milk Bones and call me in the morning. :)
 
drsax said:
Look it is all about perception. Not one single medical doctor that I have seen was like...hi just call me "Steve" . Most introduce themselves as Dr. blah, blah, blah. Why should optometrist be any different? I see nothing wrong with coming into an exam room and introducing yourself to the patient as Dr. "A". I used to work for an optical chain and everyone called the optometrist--Dr. There was never a fuss...it is what it is.

Now if you all were at dinner with strangers and she introduced herself as Doctor "A", then maybe it is an issue with her, or anyone for that matter...maybe they just need to relax. The only way I see bringing it up outside of work is if you are asked what you do for a living, then saying I am an Optometrist/Eye Doctor would sound fine to me. But whatever...its just my personal opinion. When people work hard to obtain a position it can get alittle cut-throat. I had a undergrad professor snap at me on the first day of class freshmen year for calling her Mrs. __. She quickly and sharply corrected my by saying..."refer to me as and only as Dr._"

At work, you should be Dr "A". You should also stress the optometrist part. I make sure I stress that I'm a psychiatrist, not an FP, not an OB-GYN, not working as an internist. I make it very clear to my patients. In a professional setting, you set the tone of your office.

Many of my older patients, both male and female, call me Zack, or eventually call me Zack because even though I'm 35, I have a very youthful face and look to be about 25 (which really sucks!). I'm also skinny. The end result, I look like I'm an undergrad to some people, especially older folks, and calling me Dr. S makes them uncomfortable. It's gotten better over the last few years. I remember cringing when this one older patient I had used to call me KID! Now, since I'm so old, I miss those days!! :)

Anyway, my point is, you're right, in a professional setting, it's cool to use your professional title. I never said it wasn't. However, outside of work, if you think it's cool, you need to examine your ego and ask yourself why it's okay to have others call you "doctor" when you're getting your car tuned up or are at the gym. I'm telling you, it was like...maybe...I dunno...a year or so after medical school, while I was in residency, that the novelty and coolness of being DOCTOR to everyone wore off. You know when it hit me? When I had a plumber come out to my townhouse one day to fix my drain and he quoted me a price, but once he saw my checkbook with MD after my name, the price mysteriously went up even though I was a pissant resident who made much less than him. I was a "doctor", so I was assumed to be rich. It was after that point, I started to be cool with being Mr. S again, or just Zack.

Today, I don't give a rat's ass what people call me. Well, at work, I still prefer Dr. S or Doc, but hey.

Your professor in college was right to insist on Dr. Many females who have doctorates are disrespected and called Ms. or Mrs. If you're in college, it's a fair assumption, although not always fact, that your professor is a PhD or other similar doctorate, so you should say Dr. X or at least Prof. X (like X-men!) rather than Ms. or Mr. X. Respect is one thing, but arrogance is another.
 
now there is something prozak and i can see eye to eye on!

stargate!
ready for that 200th episode? i heard rumors of a possible appearance of furlings!

and vets rule, they saved my dog! hopefully my dog would bite this one though!
 
I can totally agree with some of your points Prozack. With all the new titles trying to pop up like "doctor of physical therapy", etc. some feel that something has to be done. But it just seems like the pushers for the bill are trying to say no other type of doctor are "true" doctors, but them.

With all the professional degree programs from PhD's to all levels of health care, it isn't right...or realistic to try to "own" the title of doctor. It seems like the bill needs to focus on trying to target the few making the offenses (enforcing heavy consequences for false advertising) and not harassing the majority who are truthfully representing themselves along with providing the care they are trained to do.
 
ProZackMI said:
At work, you should be Dr "A". You should also stress the optometrist part. I make sure I stress that I'm a psychiatrist, not an FP, not an OB-GYN, not working as an internist. I make it very clear to my patients. In a professional setting, you set the tone of your office.

Many of my older patients, both male and female, call me Zack, or eventually call me Zack because even though I'm 35, I have a very youthful face and look to be about 25 (which really sucks!). I'm also skinny. The end result, I look like I'm an undergrad to some people, especially older folks, and calling me Dr. S makes them uncomfortable. It's gotten better over the last few years. I remember cringing when this one older patient I had used to call me KID! Now, since I'm so old, I miss those days!! :)

Anyway, my point is, you're right, in a professional setting, it's cool to use your professional title. I never said it wasn't. However, outside of work, if you think it's cool, you need to examine your ego and ask yourself why it's okay to have others call you "doctor" when you're getting your car tuned up or are at the gym. I'm telling you, it was like...maybe...I dunno...a year or so after medical school, while I was in residency, that the novelty and coolness of being DOCTOR to everyone wore off. You know when it hit me? When I had a plumber come out to my townhouse one day to fix my drain and he quoted me a price, but once he saw my checkbook with MD after my name, the price mysteriously went up even though I was a pissant resident who made much less than him. I was a "doctor", so I was assumed to be rich. It was after that point, I started to be cool with being Mr. S again, or just Zack.

Today, I don't give a rat's ass what people call me. Well, at work, I still prefer Dr. S or Doc, but hey.

Your professor in college was right to insist on Dr. Many females who have doctorates are disrespected and called Ms. or Mrs. If you're in college, it's a fair assumption, although not always fact, that your professor is a PhD or other similar doctorate, so you should say Dr. X or at least Prof. X (like X-men!) rather than Ms. or Mr. X. Respect is one thing, but arrogance is another.

I can see what you are trying to say...I think most pre-opt AKA KIDS students get confused by your long posts , but i do say you have raised a good point. I agree that all optometrists should stress on the O.D part...All i was trying to say that most optometrists say that they are eye docotrs to general public because most of them don't even know what it means. I swear, even my own parents and neighbors ask me so many times of how to pronounce the word "Optometrist". Even then my neighbor still says that "you are going to be an "Op, optometry" :laugh: and says oh wait what does that mean again". Oh btw, pre-opt students are not that mis-informed as you may think. We also have to shadow different optometrist even before applying. I even took a vision science class taught by an OPTOMETRIST.
 
DoggyDoc80 said:
Dude, this is SOOOO true. My optometrist always goes by Dr. Fontaine and now that I'm a vet, I made her arrogant ass call me Dr. Zuege. I don't know what kind of training it takes to be an optometrist, but try your ass in vet school. My optometrist didn't even know what a tapetum lucidum was. For the most part, they seem like technicians to me. I don't consider them real doctors like vets, MDs, dentists, or even PHDs in the sciences.

Sorry but you guys are techs. Man, I know there's this AuD degree I've seen, I think even at Purdue. What the hell now audiologists are doctors? HAHA. Even physical therapy peeps are doctors. Dude, get over yourself and realize your techs and leave the doctoring to those who have earned it, namely vets and doctors, not techs.

Oh, and a law degree is like technically a masters degree it's not a doctorate. lawyers dont even have a real doctorate since they dont get called doctor. what a joke. lawyers are idiots, every lawyer is a freakin' ***** who couldn't handle it even in business school. chiropracters are a freaking joke too. psychiatrists are a joke too. all you guys do is push pills on ppl. wtf do you need medical school and a residency for that? if your depressed, see a freaking social worker and dont waste time a shrink who is probably crazier than you.

You alls need therapy.
Muzzled. :thumbdown:
 
still_confused said:
now there is something prozak and i can see eye to eye on!

stargate!
ready for that 200th episode? i heard rumors of a possible appearance of furlings!

and vets rule, they saved my dog! hopefully my dog would bite this one though!

Very ready for the 200th Episode, but...I think they could use Jack better than for "comic relief", but I'll take any O'Neill I can get. Don't forget, he'll be in Dr. Weir's "nightmare" in the Atlantis episode after Sg-1.

Um, I don't expect any Furlings coming our way anytime soon, although, you never know...I hear they are the ones who own the ship in Season 8's "Grace", so we shall see. :)

I love vets too. I just don't like *****s!
 
sorry, if you use the word origin, you need to start at the edge, not half way through history. origin would be when practice was discovered, studied, implemented. barbers didn't enter the scene until 1200ad. the first indications of the practice of dental medicine was like 2500bc. how can 1200ad be point of origin??

jefguth said:
The point is that all modern western professions have their origins in one of the relatively modern european trade guilds that trained members by apprenticeships. Surgeons, including dental surgeons, arose from the barbers guild, physicians from the from a separate guild that trained medical practioners. Ever wonder why UK medical students recieve a MBBS, bachelor of medicine/bachelor of surgery? Because physicians and surgeons came from different guilds. Its the same reason why today in the UK you would address your PCP as "doctor," and your surgeon as "mister/misses."
 
cool article!! both myself and the ada.org timeline of ancient dentistry stand corrected! did i miss somewhere in that article that the barbers of the tribe performed the procedures??!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


aphistis said:
 
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