Husband dropped out of med school. Now what?

[shisong]

Honestly, from a christian perspective... yes people make mistake, they lie and etc... but like you said, if he is making progress then i will stick it out... if you divorce because of this then same thing can happen in the future, because human will always lie... I think as long as he didnt cheat on you during the times you are away, then that is good enough to give him a chance and to talk it out

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[Crayola227]

Honestly, from a christian perspective... yes people make mistake, they lie and etc... but like you said, if he is making progress then i will stick it out... if you divorce because of this then same thing can happen in the future, because human will always lie... I think as long as he didnt cheat on you during the times you are away, then that is good enough to give him a chance and to talk it out

um what do you mean human beings always lie?

like, about whether or not you look fat in those pants or they overcooked your birthday breakfast eggs?

I don't care what anyone says, not ALL lies are created equal

and a pattern of lying whether it's small or big, is a big deal

I don't take issue that as a Christian you recommend this couple try to work things out, even I think that's reasonable, but let's not dismiss or minimize what he did

just because the OP could divorce this big fat liar and marry another one is also not a reason to stay

this guy needs to somehow learn the lesson that this was totally unacceptable, and rebuild trust that he will never again act this way

I just am skeptical because most people don't need to learn this lesson, and if they do, the chances they will are slight

I'm not saying this isn't salvageable, that's not my place

that won't be done, though, if this isn't treated like a huge deal, of that much I am certain

 

[Crayola227]

I generally try to shy away from offering advice on personal matters because these things are just too complex for outsiders to truly understand. That said, I think there are some time-limited issues in your case that may compel you to move faster.

No matter what you chose, I think you would do well to sit down with a good divorce attorney and discuss your situation and the potential legal ramifications of your choices. This is very state-specific and I am not even remotely close to being an attorney so take all of this with a large Lot's-wife-sized grain of salt. I have heard of divorces where one spouse's MD degree and it's associated earning power is considered a marital asset if it was earned during the marriage, something that could lead to a lifetime of support payments. There may be other potential pitfalls depending on how your state views such things. Different states have different separation periods before divorces are finalized - another thing to keep in mind regarding the potential for your degree to be tagged a marital asset. Definitely worth a couple hundred bucks to have a confidential conversation with an attorney and figure out the best way to protect yourself and your assets.

I don't know what to make of your husband. Many people who struggle in medical school and residency turn to denial and concealment as a coping mechanism; this obviously only works for so long. The other financial things are a huge red flag obviously. He sounds like someone who desperately needs professional help, something you are wholly unqualified to give him in this particular situation. Would he be open to it? I'm not talking couples counseling, I'm talking him alone seeing the appropriate professionals to get his personal issues sorted. Is this something worth saving if he could get these issues under control? See this is why I hate giving relationship advice because these are the big questions that really matter and there's absolutely no way anyone else has a clue as to the answer.

You will never have an easier way out than you do right now. No kids, minimal assets, and an impending major life change that will potentially take you far away from the mess so you can start over again. It's rare, but some people do get remarried after divorcing, so ending this marriage does not mean you two couldn't reconcile and remarry in the future under better circumstances.

I don't know what field you're planning to pursue but residency is hard on even the best marriages. It's hard to convey the level of fatigue and lack of time you will have as a resident; some rotations you will be hard pressed to keep up with your own ADLs. There is no chance you will be able to do anything to help this man remotely while you're exhausted and more stressed than you've ever been before.

I would point out that considering this guy lied about finances, and was deliquent on the rent, I would be even more worried that with a divorce he would come to her with his hand out.

A friend of mine has made the point that you could get a divorce now, but that doesn't mean you can't work on the relationship and get re-married if that really seems appropriate. But at least then the OP hasn't locked themselves into a financial situation without that deliberation.

 

[Crayola227]

Also, I not sure if a legal separation now, then followed up by a divorce after graduation, what that does to any spousal support issues. I would definitely talk to a divorce lawyer.

 

[Crayola227]

Also, to keep your options open, I'm not sure how un-Christian it is to get a legal divorce for now, with a plan to work towards reconciliation, provided that you don't break your vow of fidelity (don't bang other dudes).

You're supposed to follow the law of the land, but....

Since marriage certificates aren't legally required for marriage-like cohabitation, I know that some churches don't require them. Just the ceremony and vows, plus upholding those vows.

 

[Crayola227]

These are the most important sentences in your post. Instead of turning to you for support and trusting you with the truth of his struggles and frailties, he lied to you. He concealed important facts and mislead you. He demonstrated a lack of integrity and lack of character that is a critical part of who he is. I'm sorry, but you did marry a fraud.



Wise observation. It can be harder for some people to admit they're struggling and ask for help than to dissemble and conceal and self-sabotage themselves into the ground. But unless and until that changes, how could the OP ever fully trust him? And without trust, there's just no chance for a good marriage.



Very, very true. And from what you've said, I can't see this guy digging out until he's hit rock bottom, which includes losing you. It may or may not ever happen - I hope it does - but you can't let him drag you down with him any further.

Excellent point about rock bottom. For almost everyone, rock bottom includes losing their SO. Or at least the SO separates. In 12 step programs, separation is actually recommended to those in recovery, if that is feasible.

 

[Crayola227]

I'm not sure how right with God either of you are being in this marriage.

I think it's better to ask forgiveness for the sin of divorce than for either of you to be distanced from God as a result of this marriage.

He might need the wake up call of divorce to get right with God. Lying to your wife - he's not right with God, I can tell you that.

Maybe you guys can fix this, but I still think a divorce and moratorium on baby plans is in order.

 

[Crayola227]

20 Top Divorce Bible Verses - What Does Scripture Say?

Matthew 19:8-9
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Unfortunately, I can't help but wonder, is this just applicable to men? Because God didn't want men to divorce their wives for the strange? And was less worried women would divorce without good cause?

Is this a case of just how the Bible is being interpreted?

 

[Crayola227]

To the whole "broken vows" thing, we don't know what OP's vows actually were. My wife and I wrote our own, and they certainly were not the traditional "love, honor, cherish". I don't think it's really fair to attack their marriage vows or that aspect since we don't really know those details.

Even if you don't like giving this sort of advice, you're pretty spot on more often than not. I think you're pretty spot on here as well. I'm not going to delve into my personal assessment as it's not appropriate here, but I agree that professional help for both of them as well as him as an individual is completely necessary, and I'm glad to hear OP and her husband are already pursuing that.

That could be true. He could also be someone whose self-esteem is so destroyed from all the failures (or perceived failures) in his life and was so scared that OP would leave him that he felt his only real option was to lie. Especially if he sees OP as such an incredible person and himself as worthless. Idk if that's the case, but considering OP still sees him as a "truly kind and selfless man", I suspect these lies have less to do with malicious or nefarious intent and more to do with some form of mental health problem. I've also worked with patients so depressed they didn't pay any utilities for months, even after they were shut off. So while that is a pretty egregious lie, I wouldn't automatically write it off as OP's husband being a horrible person.

I could totally do it with my current landlady. She's way too nice and doesn't really need the money. She'd probably let us live in our current location for free if we became desperate enough.

Idk what OP should do, but I think it's clear that if she decides to stay with her husband, it will be a very difficult path that will require a lot of work (clearly more than most people here would be willing to commit to a relationship). It sounds like the guy is trying to be productive as he's entered a PhD program and has several credits applied towards it, and he is seeking professional help. Whether the odds of that amounting to anything is something OP has to judge, as she knows him best. Whether the effort required to stay in a relationship like this (especially long-distance) is worth it is also only something OP can really know. For some people long-distance sucks, but is totally doable. For others, it's just a recipe for disaster and just leads to more trouble and problems than it's worth. Idk what I'd do, but if it's legit I don't think any further advice from SDN is going to provide any benefit.

Lying about this for esteem issues and to keep the OP from leaving, doesn't make any sense given that he had to know she would find out. Therefore, I don't think it's a question of "concealment so she'll never so." It's "concealment until..."

Now I am wondering if he was hoping to make her stuck by marriage, rely on her to "do the right thing," so he could check out career-wise. I don't care that he's not going to be a doctor, but if the goal was to be dishonest and "trick" her into marriage AND then pulling a career 180 - that's totally different. Whether they were married or not, he should have been honest about the failing of the courses. Waiting until AFTER they were married.... Saving the honesty under after the bells rings... not sure that's what happened here, but just saying I don't know how much I buy that he was concealing out of fear.

We all know it's wrong to wait until after marriage to reveal things we fear would have made our spouses not marry us. C'mon.

As someone who tried to move forward in a 7 year long engagement after acknowledged infidelity on the part of the other person.... yeah, I don't think it's fair that you're dismissing that the advice to this OP to bail out now is because people aren't willing to put in effort to heal a relationship.

I think some of us just feel strongly about the foundation that this marriage was built on, and what it means for the future.

I agree with someone else that depression doesn't explain this level of a lack of character. It certainly doesn't make it OK. I don't buy that he comes out of this failure a changed man, and that he doesn't act like this again. This is how he clearly deals with the hard times, and hard times can always happen. Depression can always happen.

Nevermind that the OP gave him MORE THAN ONE CHANCE to make this right and do the right thing, and more than once he pulled the same crap.

Remember? She let it go when she found out he failed a few courses and never said anything. She expressed concern about Step 1 and he blew it off. She expressed concern during the year he was to prepare for it again. She expressed concern about his lack of direction and he didn't pay the rent.

This can't be put down to what you're describing, in my view.

 

[jw3600]

Yeah, a person who gets into medical school and pursues a PhD is a bum. Your parents must be scary!

The current leader of the free world has “President” and “CEO” on his resume and he’s for sure a ****ing bum. Pedigree and credentials don’t make you infallible from being a loser.

 

[wegh]

It has absolutely nothing to do with status and everything to do with conduct. The fact that people don’t see that frightens me.

It’s one thing to fail medical school exams and take ownership of it. But hiding it, as well as large financial decisions undermine trust. At the root of every successful relationship is trust. Suppose your financial institution went belly up and fleed overseas because it had squandered all its clients money in faulty investments. That’s essentially the level of deception we are talking about here.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I think I just got caught up in wording. I think of a 'bum' as a lazy person. A 'loser' yes, I would agree is someone is dishonest, cheats, etc. So it was just an issue with semantics. I was thinking they were calling this person lazy for dropping out of medical school.

 

[Crayola227]

I assumed they meant bum because they didn't pay the rent for 6 months and not telling his wife

sounds pretty much like a bum (not being broke and not being able to pay the bills, but doing it ongoing and not letting your wife know....)

yeah, bum fits

 

[jw3600]

I assumed they meant bum because they didn't pay the rent for 6 months and not telling his wife

sounds pretty much like a bum (not being broke and not being able to pay the bills, but doing it ongoing and not letting your wife know....)

yeah, bum fits

I’m borderline shocked this is even being debated.

 

[Stagg737]

Lying about this for esteem issues and to keep the OP from leaving, doesn't make any sense given that he had to know she would find out. Therefore, I don't think it's a question of "concealment so she'll never so." It's "concealment until..."

As I said, people do things that make no sense when they have a severe mental illness. We don't know many of the details of this story or the extent of his condition. Not saying there wasn't any lying or manipulation. Just saying we don't know, and lying/concealing the truth out of fear or severe depression is not that ridiculous imo.

yeah, I don't think it's fair that you're dismissing that the advice to this OP to bail out now is because people aren't willing to put in effort to heal a relationship.

I never did this. Anywhere. I also don't think it's appropriate to be giving definitive relationship advice about ending a marriage to someone based on 4-5 posts over the internet though. Which is why I said the OP should make the decision for herself.

We all know it's wrong to wait until after marriage to reveal things we fear would have made our spouses not marry us. C'mon.

Obviously. Again, don't know why you'd assume I think that. If you read what I actually wrote, all I said was that if OP chooses to continue this supposed relationship it will take a lot of work and only she can decide if it's actually worth it. Never said I thought she should actually stay with him.

 

[Crayola227]

As I said, people do things that make no sense when they have a severe mental illness. We don't know many of the details of this story or the extent of his condition. Not saying there wasn't any lying or manipulation. Just saying we don't know, and lying/concealing the truth out of fear or severe depression is not that ridiculous imo.



I never did this. Anywhere. I also don't think it's appropriate to be giving definitive relationship advice about ending a marriage to someone based on 4-5 posts over the internet though. Which is why I said the OP should make the decision for herself.



Obviously. Again, don't know why you'd assume I think that. If you read what I actually wrote, all I said was that if OP chooses to continue this supposed relationship it will take a lot of work and only she can decide if it's actually worth it. Never said I thought she should actually stay with him.

This is all fair enough, but I don't think lying/concealing truth for any reason, to your spouse, makes sense. It is a ridiculous thing to do. It is a ridiculous thing to blame on your depression and fear. The concept that fear or depression was part of the decision, notsomuch. But carrying it through?

You're sort of relating bad character or poor moral decisions with mental illness in a way I find troublesome. I don't know if you see that.

For OP's sake, I hope her husband can figure out the distinction if that is the problem.

 

[Stagg737]

This is all fair enough, but I don't think lying/concealing truth for any reason, to your spouse, makes sense. It is a ridiculous thing to do. It is a ridiculous thing to blame on your depression and fear. The concept that fear or depression was part of the decision, notsomuch. But carrying it through?

You're sort of relating bad character or poor moral decisions with mental illness in a way I find troublesome. I don't know if you see that.

For OP's sake, I hope her husband can figure out the distinction if that is the problem.

I know what I'm saying, and the point I'm making is reflective of things I've seen actual patients do. I've seen patients tell lies that many people would consider worse than this out of fear/anxiety which they would not have told when mentally stable and genuinely believe they could keep them up forever. That's not blaming the whole situation on the disease or characterizing those with mental illness as immoral. It's simply acknowledging that the condition (if it existed in this individual), may have played a significant role in that decision making process. Either way, we don't know in this case. Maybe the person is antisocial, maybe they were severely mentally impaired due to mood issues, maybe they're just an a-hole (I'm guessing it's not as simple as the last option).

Even if there was mental illness or some other issue involved, I wouldn't advise OP to stay or leave. That's up to her, and I'm also not saying that if her husband has/had a mental illness that it would give his actions a pass or preclude her from leaving him. Just that some people seem to have made this situation out to be "he's a liar, dump him", when it's likely far more complicated than that.

 

[Crayola227]

I know what I'm saying, and the point I'm making is reflective of things I've seen actual patients do. I've seen patients tell lies that many people would consider worse than this out of fear/anxiety which they would not have told when mentally stable and genuinely believe they could keep them up forever. That's not blaming the whole situation on the disease or characterizing those with mental illness as immoral. It's simply acknowledging that the condition (if it existed in this individual), may have played a significant role in that decision making process. Either way, we don't know in this case. Maybe the person is antisocial, maybe they were severely mentally impaired due to mood issues, maybe they're just an a-hole (I'm guessing it's not as simple as the last option).

Even if there was mental illness or some other issue involved, I wouldn't advise OP to stay or leave. That's up to her, and I'm also not saying that if her husband has/had a mental illness that it would give his actions a pass or preclude her from leaving him. Just that some people seem to have made this situation out to be "he's a liar, dump him", when it's likely far more complicated than that.

It is complicated, yes. I can see why for many, at the end of the day, they think it will boil down to getting out now.

If he was that severely mentally impaired due to mood issues, no, he would not have been able to hide ALL of this from her. There's a lot you can hide, but interestingly enough for the most part complex and ongoing deception is a very complex cognitive process - much moreso than telling the truth. That doesn't fit with someone who is so mentally incapacitated due to anxiety, fear, or depression, that they carry out so many different types of deception over so long. For such mental illness to become so severe that it erodes that level of your integrity and moral fiber - uh, not buying it.

Also, did she not get any trust all the times he came to her with ugly truth and just asked him to follow through on whatever was the solution now?

And if he is antisocial personality disorder, what then?

Of course I'm analyzing this off of what was in OP's posts. I don't see how she could have wanted anything more or less. She is quite capable of weighing our advice given what we do or d0 not know of her situation.

Here's the thing, as a doc. You have to ask yourself what is the reasonable outcome of the situation right in front of you. Figuring out why sometimes makes no real difference to management. Not to mention your proposed mechanism not only doesn't account for the symptoms; even if it did, it doesn't make that much difference to outcome now.

I don't know the etiology. I feel confident of the prognosis.

 

[Crayola227]

I think you're missing my point:

THE SUPREME VAST MAJORITY OF ALL MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE NEVER ACT TO THIS EXTREME EVER, even psychotic patients who have lost touch with reality.

So why is that this guy, who I can tell you right now is pretty high functioning with his illness to pull this over on her for so long, has acted so egregiously?

That's the point. The fact that this kind of behavior is not characteristic of the illness, means you can't reduce it to mental illness.

If they can do it (be mentally ill but not betray the spouse so deeply over and over), then why can't he?

Honestly, if he had an addictive disorder, that would make more sense and I would have greater hopes of recovery. Because we understand how that works and it is treatable.

Depression, anxiety, so many mental health conditions, are treatable.

Being untrustworthy is not part of a mental health condition. I won't say it is untreatable but the prognosis is not good and frequently fatal to a relationship and can usually only be treated by termination.

 

[stickgirl390]

“I know that if we had just waited 6 months to get married we wouldn't even be together anymore.“

There’s your answer. I get the vibe by reading your post that you already know what you have to do. Best of luck to you.

 

[giantswing]

Honestly, from a christian perspective... because human will always lie...

Um... NO. That's a big, fat no.

You don't want or need or should stay with a spouse who lies. NO. NO. NO.

(Christians can be two faced liars who hide behind their Christianity to fool themselves into believing they are "good people" even though they lie, but that's beside the point.)

 

[Lori345!]

Two years ago, I married the love of my life. We were both in medical school, had known each other our whole lives, and didn't have a doubt in our minds that it was the right choice. I was a third year and he was a second year, so in order to match together, I decided to do my MPH between third and fourth year. To my knowledge, we were both doing well enough in school to make this decision to commit to each other.

Almost as soon as we got married, I learned some things he had been hiding from me. He had failed a couple classes during his first two years of school that he had to repeat. Not a huge deal, but I was surprised that he had never told me. Step 1 was coming up for him and I noticed that he wasn't putting in the time and effort in order to study. We had several talks about this, but I decided to trust him and let him take responsibility for his own education. Needless to say, he failed Step 1. In order to have more time to study, he decided to repeat second year. Just months after getting married this was obviously a huge blow, but I decided to support him in every way I could and stick with it together. He "studied" the whole year, still not putting in the effort that I know to be necessary to do well on Step. In the mean time, he shut all of our friends out of our lives, lied about how he was spending his year even to our friends, and lied to me about how he was progressing on his tests. We talked about how much it was bothering me but he never changed his behavior. Finally, June came around and it was time for him to attempt Step again. Instead of taking the test, he decided to quit medical school entirely, with a plan to do a PhD instead. I was leaving for an international rotation, and he promised that he would find a job and apply to school while I was gone. He had 6 weeks to do it, and neither of those things happened. In the mean time, I also found out that he was delinquent on rent for 6 months and we could no longer afford to live in our home.

Now, he got into a PhD program and is living at his parent's house while I am traveling the country for my interviews and away rotations. I feel so betrayed at this point and feel like I don't even know this person. I tried to be supportive for so long but almost feel like what has happened is irreconcilable. I get so excited thinking about my future in medicine, and finally feel like myself again not being associated with someone that I felt was slowly draining me in every way. I feel terrible because I know that he is struggling, and he really is a kind and selfless man that I feel like is in a hard place in life. But I can't help feeling like I married a fraud. My vows and belief in Christian marriage are what's stopping me from leaving, but I know that if we had just waited 6 months to get married we wouldn't even be together anymore.

I want to make clear that I don't care that my husband won't be a doctor. What makes me scared to continue our marriage is his lack of integrity and how horribly he dealt with the entire situation. Now that he's in a PhD program, we also will not be moving together when I move for residency and will have a long distance marriage for at least 2 years.

Has anyone been in this position before? Did you stay? Leave? I know this isn't necessarily a med student issue, but I felt that this community would understand this predicament in a way that others couldn't. Thanks!

So pretty much the same thing happened to me. Keep in mind that while he may have withheld information from you it was out of fear of rejection. Try to remove yourself from the line of fire and see it as a survival strategy. He was likely trying to avoid rejection at all odds by pulling it off and getting through school as you had done. While at the same time trying to manage large amounts of work and his feelings of failure. Med school not for everyone... failing out is probably the most terrible thing that has ever happened to him, it certainly is for my husband. We are still trying to figure out what plan B is and it hasn’t been easy. But I have faith that a mind that can get into med school can excel in some other career it’s just a matter of exploring options. Getting into med school didn’t happen over night so I’m sure this too will take some time to workout.

 

[Lori345!]

So pretty much the same thing happened to me. Keep in mind that while he may have withheld information from you it was out of fear of rejection. Try to remove yourself from the line of fire and see it as a survival strategy. He was likely trying to avoid rejection at all odds by pulling it off and getting through school as you had done. While at the same time trying to manage large amounts of work and his feelings of failure. Med school not for everyone... failing out is probably the most terrible thing that has ever happened to him, it certainly is for my husband. We are still trying to figure out what plan B is and it hasn’t been easy. But I have faith that a mind that can get into med school can excel in some other career it’s just a matter of exploring options. Getting into med school didn’t happen over night so I’m sure this too will take some time to workout.

So pretty much the same thing happened to me. Keep in mind that while he may have withheld information from you it was out of fear of rejection. Try to remove yourself from the line of fire and see it as a survival strategy. He was likely trying to avoid rejection at all odds by pulling it off and getting through school as you had done. While at the same time trying to manage large amounts of work and his feelings of failure. Med school not for everyone... failing out is probably the most terrible thing that has ever happened to him, it certainly is for my husband. We are still trying to figure out what plan B is and it hasn’t been easy. But I have faith that a mind that can get into med school can excel in some other career it’s just a matter of exploring options. Getting into med school didn’t happen over night so I’m sure this too will take some time to workout.

and actually I would love to talk to you about this more as this is fresh for us as well.

 

[kindoflostandsad]

I feel for you, OP. It's heartbreaking when someone you trust so much lies to your face. Especially given the stress and anxiety of med school and making decisions for residency.

 

[DesertDude]

Well Op, the Bible states that there's only a few valid reasons to divorce, regardless of what you're going through. Marriage is up and down, and if you stick this out, you may look back at this and chuckle at the hardships you and your husband pushed through. Very pathetic how he lied to you like that though.

 

[ElJamo17]

Yeah,
Who knows, be honest with this person... maybe he can change.

 

[Crayola227]

Well Op, the Bible states that there's only a few valid reasons to divorce, regardless of what you're going through. Marriage is up and down, and if you stick this out, you may look back at this and chuckle at the hardships you and your husband pushed through. Very pathetic how he lied to you like that though.

Just curious what the "reasons" plural are, as many maintain there's only one.