I don't mean to anger people but.....

[Amy B]

I do not mean to anger people but I am really curious about the whole URM thing. There have been so many posts on the SDN that talk about the URM,especially when pertaining to GPA and MCAT. Someone says they have low stats and everyone asks if they are URM. Or someone says "I have low gpa and low MCAt but I am a URM."

Here is my problem. What does being a URM have to do with lower stats. I did see the stats from the MCAT web site (I posted about this today) and stats were so different when they were compared by race. Why is this?

I feel if I were an URM I would be insulted with being accepted somewhere with lower scores then what everyone else was accepted with.

Maybe I am missing something, but I feel we all work very, very hard to get to med school, so why are some people given what seems to me to be special rights when looking at their stats.

I'm sure some people will take offense to my post. Those of you who have seen all my previous posts know that I do care about other people, I am not racist, I do not go out of my way to hurt or offend anyone.

Any thoughts?

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[brandonite]

The theory goes that URMs have less access to educational resources than other individuals, thus, their stats do not recognize their true potential. Is it true in every case? Probably not. But I would tend to believe that it is at least generally true. I don't really have a problem with it. The physicians educated by medical schools should reflect the population as a whole (less people like me, white males. ).

 

[A. Caveman]

i think they're given some extra slack because of many reasons. one is that there aren't enough of them in this profession, so to accept more, means to go down to where their scores are, and accept from what you got, basically. but why? why can't we just take the arians, they have the highest scores...(just a joke, but you see my point). diversity is necessary.
less importantly, only because i think the above reason is held highest in consideration by med schools (most pc and acceptable), URM's (generally) don't come from the same backgrounds that the nonURM's are supposedly from. URM's have had a tougher uphill climb. maybe parents weren't as successful as the nonURM's so this wasn't instilled in them as much as in nonURM's. for ex. parents didn't motivate and inspire them to study, or lived in bad school areas, etc, etc. you could come up with others. but you see why they get the benefit of the doubt. i think it makes sense, and it's totally fair. the people that make it to med school coming from very humble beginnings are often some of the most hardworking, and deserving. the chicano or african american that gets into med school is not the one that hangs out with his 'vatos' drinking all night. he/she is the dependable, hardworking type, and if you'd come from where they came from, you may not even have made it. i'm not a URM, and i think it's the right thing. it's all about REPRESENTING..like Ice T

 

[bebe2]

Wow!
So I would like to answer this by making a couple of points.

I hope this doesn't get ugly. As a URM, I have to add my 2cents.
This is a general response to the "Why are URMs accepted to medical school with lower stats". it may not even really answer you q's Amy Beth.

1) The acceptance rates for URM's in almost every school is not significantly different from the "general population". meaning, we are not accepted at higher rates
2) URM's make up less than 10 percent of most entering classes(at least the one's I have applied to). Believe me you are NOT at a disadvantage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3)Many URMs get into medical schools because they are ,here is the hard part to believe for some , intelligent people who have also worked very very hard to get into medical school
4)What about all the applications that ask "has your daddy worked here, is he a faculty member?" What do people think about that one?

5)MCATs maybe slightly lower for some URMs because truth is some URMs are at a educational and economic disadvantage. Many of my friends at Hopkins could not afford PR or Kaplan, when their Caucasian and Asian American counterparts could. Of course, many take these exams without these courses, but I am just giving some facts.

Okay, i haven't really answered your questions AMY but why is your post limited to URMS?

have you ever interviewed at a school, and thought "I'm not worthy".

Did you feel insulted when they interviewed you?

When non-URMs talk about being disadvantaged sometimes I cannot believe it! Check the stats for many of your schools. Or even better, look around at your interviews, how many URMs are in the room

Nuff said!

 

[megkudos]

From what I have heard, when URMs apply to medical school they "compete" against other URMs for admission. I think that it is a good thing because doctors should represent the population and we need URMs in medicine. This seems like a valid way to go about it--have a certain number of URM spots and fill them with the best candidates.

 

[lake show]

i think you're too narrow minded if you think stats are the end all for medical school acceptance. they are a significant factor, but there are so many other factors involved, experiences, interview, recommendations that it's foolish to try to correlate two students with the same stats. plus, i think with the lack of urm doctors in the field today, i don't see anything wrong with accepting someone who would bring a different background and experience into the mix.

 

[A. Caveman]

wait, bebe. i'm for your cause, but there's less of them at the interviews/attending schools because there's less of them in the population, period

out of X nonURM's in the applicant pool, a certain number are accepted. take this success percentage and apply it to URM's.
i'm willing to bet that URM's would have a higher success percentage, because 10% URM's in any given class sounds pretty high, relatively speaking.

 

[shimmer118]

I agree: that "is daddy or mommy a faculty member, physician, or a janitor here" is a terrible question. And I agree that there should be more URMs in medicine (heck, there should be more of them in lots of things!!! )

The only thing I have a problem with is suggesting that URMs get lower scores on the MCAT than do whites, etc. b/c of an economic disadvantage. While that may be true for many URMs, we shouldn't ignore those folks who are white or asian and can't afford Kaplan. I'm not a URM, but I sure as heck couldn't afford a Kaplan class while in college. URMs at, say, Johns Hopkins undergrad who can't afford the Kaplan aren't necessarily "disadvantaged": they're attending an extremely good school that I assume will teach them everything they need to know to do well on the MCAT.

I think most schools do this, but if they don't, then med schools should take a look at every candidate's entire profile (city of birth, where s/he grew up, and economic/socio background) *before* determining who is disadvantaged, regardless of race.

 

[E'01]

Megkudos I was surprised to hear that ...you are right though. As a URM I didn't think I would only be competing with other URMs at a particular school...I thought I would be considered with the entire applicant pool. I guess it has its advantage, but what if there are more qualified URM applicants for a particular quota set by a medical school are they then at least put into the overall applicant pool?

 

[bebe2]

By URMs I mean (Hispanic, Black, Pacific Islander, etc). how does 10 percent equal the percentage in the general population of all these groups. Maybe these applicants make up 10 percent of the application pool. All i am saying is that we are obviously NOT given as much "special consideration" as some would like to believe. If that were true, we would take up more seats in the medical school class.

Secondly, I said before many people do not take Kaplan, I am just giving that as an example of an economic disadvantage.

 

[willbeMD]

bebe2
To be considered a URM you must be African American, Puerto Rican natives, Alaskan/Native American, and Mexican. Not all Hispanic and Black people are URMs. Also, AMCAS now asks quetions regarding your socioeconomic status (SES). I am guessing this is to give special consideration to those who have a lower SES but are not URMs.

 

[alice]

I think what the schools do with Under Represented Minorities is totally legit. Doctors serve the entire population, and URM status means that this section of the population is not represented sufficiently. It is not about PC. It's about making a diverse world of doctors to to treat a diverse patient population. It's not about being aryan or not. I think the people who get this worst are asians - the average stats are much higher which means the competition is steeper. I am not a minority - represented or un - but I really think this is a good thing. I don't think that it sways the decisions too heavily. Just in comparing two comparable students. They make choices like that all the time and consider other parts of a person, why not race? It's not all about numbers.

 

[UCLA2000]

"i'm willing to bet that URM's would have a higher success percentage, because 10% URM's in any given class sounds pretty high, relatively speaking."

Considering that URM's make up a MUCH larger percentage of the general population than 10%, having only 10% in medical schools is a dismally low number.

My views: URM's tend to have a poorer educational background and start off at a disadvantage. If you disagree with this let's look at the facts.

URM's are NO Different than the rest of us. Color/Race has nothing to do with intelligence. Why is it then that URMs tend to do poorer? Obviously there's an environmental cause which brings us back to my initial argument. URM's tend to have a poorer educational background.

Due to this educational disadvantage it would be unfair to hold URMs to the same standards as the rest of us. Does this hold true in all cases? No, but statistally speaking it is a valid argument.

FYI..NO I'm NOT a URM.

 

[bebe2]

Okay, you are right.

This is probably my last post since I am leaving work soon.

I just wanted to say that the admissions process is total crapshoot. Not everyone will get in. But how do we know exactly why others were accpeted/rejected?

I know this year especially is crazy but I don't ever think, man I shouldn't have gotten this interview. Maybe there was something special in my application. Maybe I was just another URM and they needed to interview more to meet soem quota. I have no idea! But why is it that people believe that 1) URMs are undeserving of acceptances 2)URM acceptances directly affected their applications. Also, if these "special consideration exists" for URMs ( I am not saying they don't, I am saying that it is not as great as some believe), is it possible that other groups are given special consideration as well?


Okay, that is all for now. I hope I have not offended anyone either. I had this discussion with some of my non-URM pre-med friends at Hopkins a couple of years ago. It wears me out trying to defend myself and why I got into Hopkins (with higher than average stats) and why others like me , get into medical school. It saddens me to tell you the truth. To feel you have worked so hard and others look at you and think, she must be her because of Affirmative Action, her GPA must be low, her MCAT scores must be atrocious." when it simply isn't true.

 

[Amy B]

The MCAT site states that there are only about 3% of testers that are over the age of 31. The older students score lower than the younger students.

My question is if the older students are only about 3% of the applicant pool, then why are they not considered URM's for the med school process? There are way more URM's in classes than there are older students.

And I realise we are more than just numbers and I am not bothered when our special assets help our application, but I think it is wrong to assume that you have to be an URM in order to have grown up with hardship.

I come from a background where my father abandoned my self, sister and mother when I was 6 months old. We had to scrape togther an existence. My mother remarried when I was 7 to a man who didn't have kids and did not understand kids or what they needed. I had no encourgement and now even at 35 years old my parents are distant and unsupportive.
Believe me when I say I am not complaining, nor whining, but as the process of med school drags on I can't help to wonder if we are all being looked at for what we have done and earned rather than how we were born or grew up.

 

[Brian20]

Let me add another dimension to this post. I could be wrong, but when compared to the entire population of the united states, are asian-americans (chinese, korean, indian, pakistani. etc) not overrepresented in medical schools.

in interviewing, visiting schools, and looking at residency listings, it seems that, compared to their percentage in the population, asian students make up a large percentage of medical students.

I myself am a white irish american kid, my family has been here for centuries. I was an African studies minor in college and have spent some time in africa. I consider myself an open minded guy. I will admit that I sometimes thought my white-male status had kept me from getting a fair shot, but i must also say that i think black americans to be the most underrepresented persons in our medical schools. now this is only my simple observation.

I looked through a brochure of first years at a certain school and saw but ONE black male in the class. There were numerous asian students, and a few black females BUT ONLY ONE BLACK MALE.

so please, someone tell me why there are so many asian american students and so few black students. Do asian students gravitate to the sciences? are they pushed by their families? is medical school very popular in native countries?

anyway, I can say only that I think black students need more representation. its all about EQUALITY of opportunity.

 

[toobsllik]

1) The acceptance rates for URM's in almost every school is not significantly different from the "general population". meaning, we are not accepted at higher rates.

<a href="http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/davis/ucd-med-99.html" target="_blank">http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/davis/ucd-med-99.html</a>

<a href="http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/irvine/uci-med-99.html" target="_blank">http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/irvine/uci-med-99.html</a>

<a href="http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sanfrancisco/ucsf-med-99.html" target="_blank">http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sanfrancisco/ucsf-med-99.html</a>

The list goes on and on. URMs are accepted at much higher rates than whites and Asians despite their dismal MCATs and GPAs.


3)Many URMs get into medical schools because they are ,here is the hard part to believe for some , intelligent people who have also worked very very hard to get into medical school.

Is this conjecture? Where is the proof? The average MCAT score for an African-American student is a standard deviation below that of a white or Asian student. The number of African- American students who score a 12 or above on the BS section of the MCAT is roughly 17. On the VR secion, that number is 11. Of all African-American MCAT retakers, not a single one will score above an 11 on any one section. Where is the intelligence? Where is the work ethic?


4)What about all the applications that ask "has your daddy worked here, is he a faculty member?" What do people think about that one?

Definitely wrong. I sincerely doubt, however, that such policies admit as many unqualified students as Affirmative Action.

5)MCATs maybe slightly lower for some URMs because truth is some URMs are at a educational and economic disadvantage. Many of my friends at Hopkins could not afford PR or Kaplan, when their Caucasian and Asian American counterparts could. Of course, many take these exams without these courses, but I am just giving some facts.

This argument is so anachronistic it makes me sick. Socioeconomic differences cannot account for the marked test score disparities seen between URMs and whites/Asians. On the SAT, for example, white students coming from families making 0-10k score higher than black students coming from families making 70k+.


See the bottom of this page for a table of SAT scores as a function of family income and race:
<a href="http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm</a>

Undoubtedly, my reliance on test scores as a measure of academic achievement will be met with the familiar cries of the inherent cultural and linguistic bias of these standardized tests. But such arguments, like the proposed link between socioeconomic status and the black/white achievement gap, are anachronistic. In the wake of the release of Hermstein and Murray's The Bell Curve, the American Psychological Association organized a task force to prepare a statement concerning standardized testing. Included in its analysis of test scores as a function of race was the following:

From an educational point of view, the chief function of mental tests is as predictors. Intelligence tests predict school performance fairly well, at least in the American schools as they are now constituted. Similarly, achievement tests are fairly good predictors of performance in college and postgraduate settings. Considered in this light, the relevant question is whether the tests have a predictive bias against Blacks. Such a bias would exist if African-American performance on the criterion variables (school achievement, college GPA, etc.) were systematically higher than the subjects' test scores would predict. This is not the case. The actual regression lines (which show the mean criterion performance for individuals who got various scores on the predictor) for Blacks do not lie above those for Whites; there is even a tendency in the other direction (my note: that is, these tests OVERPREDICT African-American performance). Considered as predictors of future performance, the tests do not seem to be biased against African-Americans.


With regard to your "can't afford PR or Kaplan," the MCAT Student Manual reads: "The results of a study comparing the MCAT performance of students who had enrolled in commercial review courses with the performance of those who had not, involving over 20,000 students during a five year period, indicate that gains derived from commerical review courses ar small. The gains do not support the contention that review coures provide increased knowledge and facility in test taking. You should realize that the small difference in the scores of individuals receiving coaching may simply be due to the time devoted to reviewing relevant material."

 

[none]

The entire point of AA in this case is to get doctors into underserved areas. There is no cheaper/more effective manner than simply admitting URMs who will almost definitely return to their own communities.

 

[Tone2002]

Originally posted by none:
•The entire point of AA in this case is to get doctors into underserved areas. There is no cheaper/more effective manner than simply admitting URMs who will almost definitely return to their own communities.•••

Exactly!

All the other stuff I deem irrelevant. If you have your stuff together, an URM is not going to take your spot in med school.

 

[lake show]

Definitely wrong. I sincerely doubt, however, that such policies admit as many unqualified students as Affirmative Action.••

unqualified students? says who? this is the problem with people putting their faith in statistics. so, is if i got a 12 on the Biology MCAT, is that going to make me a better doctor than someone who got an 8? obviously not. it just means i was able to retain a little more info for this one test and possibly guessed a bit better, but does that infer greater success as a doctor? being a doctor doesn't require some special skills (correct me if i'm wrong since i'm not a med student), just a lot of dedication and hard work. our stats allow us to be in consideration to get into medical school, but to have lesser stats does not imply being "unqualified" as you wrtoe.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Originally posted by none:
•The entire point of AA in this case is to get doctors into underserved areas. There is no cheaper/more effective manner than simply admitting URMs who will almost definitely return to their own communities.•••

Huh?
I do not think that is the "entire" point of AA.
If you come from the "hood" most of the times you want to get the hell out of there and return now and then to serve as inspiration, not to service the community...

Once again your choice of words is superb none:
"almost definitely" ....

Toobsllk: Agreed with most of your points...

 

[mpp]

Just out of curiousity I checked the <a href="http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/start.htm" target="_blank">AAMC data</a> for applicants and accepted applicants by ethnicity. The results were suprising to me.

For 1999, 2000, and 2001 applicants cycles, the acceptance rates for URM's and other minorities was less than for the "Other Race/Ethnicity" category. Here are the acceptance rates (accepted applicants/total applicants):

1999
URM = 0.442
Other Minority = 0.453
Other Ethnicity = 0.455

2000
URM = 0.432
Other Minority = 0.468
Other Ethnicity = 0.482

2001
URM = 0.460
Other Minority = 0.502
Other Ethnicity = 0.508

Piror years showed higher acceptance rates for URM as I thought there would be. The statistics given before were for only a few schools and one application year.

 

[Tone2002]

Originally posted by Scooby Doo:
•

Huh?
I do not think that is the "entire" point of AA.
If you come from the "hood" most of the times you want to get the hell out of there and return now and then to serve as inspiration, not to service the community...

Once again your choice of words is superb none:
"almost definitely" ....

•••

How do you know? Are you even a URM?

Speaking of AA, white women benefitted the most from this policy if you looked at it broadly.

 

[ussdfiant]

Originally posted by willbeMD:
•bebe2
To be considered a URM you must be African American, Puerto Rican natives, Alaskan/Native American, and Mexican. Not all Hispanic and Black people are URMs. Also, AMCAS now asks quetions regarding your socioeconomic status (SES). I am guessing this is to give special consideration to those who have a lower SES but are not URMs.•••

I'm curious, what Black people are NOT considered URMs?

 

[Scooby Doo]

Originally posted by Tone2002:
•

How do you know? Are you even a URM?

Speaking of AA, white women benefitted the most from this policy if you looked at it broadly.•••

Not a URM...but most of my close friends are.
My main point is that that is not the what AA was intended to do...

So why do you think white women benefited most from this system? Racism of the employers was stronger than their sexism feelings?

 

[Ceelo]

All Black people are URMs. That's why we need AA.

 

[toobsllik]

Originally posted by corleone:
[QB]

unqualified students? says who?

Says the national boards, which black students are far more likely than whites to fail.

 

[simpleton]

I've been to six interviews. I didn't see one black person. enough said.

 

[Nikki]

The average MCAT score for an African-American student is a standard deviation below that of a white or Asian student. The number of African- American students who score a 12 or above on the BS section of the MCAT is roughly 17. On the VR secion, that number is 11. Of all African-American MCAT retakers, not a single one will score above an 11 on any one section. Where is the intelligence? Where is the work ethic?

••

So toobsllik, basically we're all dumb and lazy . . . of course with the exception of the 17 or so that could score above 12 in the BS section?

Medical schools aren't going to waste their time to admit students that they don't think will become doctors . . . which is why it's up to them and not you to judge whether an applicant is qualified. I hope you put as much time into your application as you have spent researching the inferiority of the black applicant.

 

[Ranger Bob]

Originally posted by Scooby Doo:
[QB]
Huh?
I do not think that is the "entire" point of AA.
If you come from the "hood" most of the times you want to get the hell out of there and return now and then to serve as inspiration, not to service the community...
••

Scooby, Studies have shown that minorities are more likely than non-minorities to serve in poor communities. The need for physicians in poor communities is one of the major arguments in favor of affirmative action. Your point about minorities wanting to "get the hell out of the hood" is actually strong argument AGAINST affirmative action.

 

[lake show]

toobsllik, show me the stats that back your statements up. is this discrepancy between blacks and whites a large one? what's the standard deviation, margin of error? just to say that because blacks have a lower pass rate means that they're more unqualified is just crazy. i don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're saying one race is not as smart as the other so we shouldn't accept as many. maybe i'm wrong.

amy beth, this topic always brings out a heated discussion. mainly against URMs, probably because most posters are not URMs. i personally think it's sad when people degrade someone's acceptance because their stats weren't as good AND that they happen to be a URM. if a caucasian got in a school with mediocre stats, most people would say that it's due to some awesome volunteer experience or life story, but if it's a URM, it sounds like people directly point to the URM status as the reason they got in. sad to hear.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Originally posted by Ranger Bob:
•

Scooby, Studies have shown that minorities are more likely than non-minorities to serve in poor communities. The need for physicians in poor communities is one of the major arguments in favor of affirmative action. Your point about minorities wanting to "get the hell out of the hood" is actually strong argument AGAINST affirmative action.•••

First, I never said I was FOR Affirmative Action.
I agree with the statement saying that coming from a poor place you are more likely to go back than someone who is not from there. And I agree that minorities are more likely to serve in areas where their is a lack of medical service. This is how so many doctors from other nations such as India are getting into the US right now...they will go work in rural areas and then establish residency here. Do I have a problem with that? Hellz no..if someone is serving these people who need it, it's all good!

Basically, you are equating URM status with socioeconomic class - and that is total BS. That is the main reason I am against blanket AA. If someone is a black male coming from Beverly Hills, is he going to have the same "background" to provide the "diversity" to a medical school...I personally don't think so. Basically, diversity comes from more than skin color.
Am I against all forms of AA? No...but i really think that AA is a step on a diagonal rather than a straight line approach to the path we should be taking. People are very much into immediate results, and that is more so what AA is doing..like it or not. Corporations want to pump out numbers that say, 20% of our workforce in managerial positions are URMs....Sure, that's good (or maybe it could be higher)...but if you really want to change some things you need to hook it at a lower level. Start pumping the money into the ghetto areas...Start being much stricter on gangs...start providing opportunities for kids to get involved in things other than gangs....stop crack mothers from giving birth...etc etc....it goes on and on...

 

[Scooby Doo]

Originally posted by simpleton:
•I've been to six interviews. I didn't see one black person. enough said.•••


I hate it when people make one line statements and then say "enough said" or "done" or "case closed"....

I have been to more interviews and I have seen some blacks and other URM's, though not a huge amount. Many unique people with great stats and great life stories. You have to understand that the whole meaning behind URM is that it stands for people who are UNDERREPRESENTED! Therefore, you are not going to see URM's be in the majority of your interviewing section.
While it's true at some schools there is not as much, but remember, some schools interview everyday for many months straight! Some schools only interview a small group on one day. If you were in groups of 50 or so, then it doesn't make sense that you did not see any URM's. Plus, you need to look at the places you are interviewing at as well....I actually saw more URM's at the higher ranked schools I went to. I dont' know why and I don't want to think about it right now. You can think about it and argue all you want...

 

[Medic171]

I had to voice my opinion. Please do not take it personal and feel free to correct or rebute me.

Yes, I think that schools should activly recruit URMs. They should go out of their way to find qualified URM applicants and strive to have a student body that matches or exceeds the population percentages..

No, I do not think URMs should be accepted with lower standards. IMO the argument that URMs generally have educational or financial disadvantages that account for and excuse lower scores is rediculous.

If this standard is to be applied, it should include all disadvantaged students regardless of race, gender, ethnicity ect.

For example, I am not a URM and I could never begin to know the hardship of being a minority in America today, BUT I came from a poor family and a bad high school in which I scored poorly.

What did I do?
(To overcome the educational disadvantage)
I went to community college and got good grades. I then applied to, got accepted, and matriculated to the University. Sounds like a disadvantaged educational background that was overcome by using tools avaliable to everyone, regardless of status(anyone can go to CC and transfer).

How did I pay for it?
(To overcome the financial disadvantage)
Loans, then and now. My student loan debt now exceeds $20,000 for undergrad alone. Again, Stafford loans are avaliable to everyone regardless of income or URM status. In other words, anybody can pay for college with loans. I would even dare to say that URMs may even have an advantage to funding their undergraduate education in the form of special loans, grants, scholarships, and preferance with Federal Aid.

I am a 25 year old male caucasion. My income last year was less than $11,000. I did NOT qualify for any PELL grants or otherwise, only Stafford loans.

I good friend of mine here at school is a 24 year old black female. Her income last year was about $19,000. She qualifies for a $3000 PELL grants, a local school grant for $1500, and the UNCF is picking up the rest of her bill and housing costs. She had $2200 left over, which she used as a down payment on her 2001 Ford Expidition.
My car...1992 Saturn SL with 192,000 miles on it.

I am not petty and I do not really care about the cars. I am truly happy for my friend, and she lets me drive the SUV sometimes , but my point is obvious.

The following is paraphrased from a social science researcher for Florida State University:

Equal opportunity and fairness are the goals of AA. Our society has not reached this goal yet, and some type of program is definitly needed to insure equal treatment of our URMs, but the current AA programs are not working. They serve only to lower the moral and self image of URMs, while discriminating against non-URM's.

AA programs as they are can allow unprepared students entrance to programs they are not ready for. Worse, they attach an unprecidented stigma to URMs that they are somehow less intlligent than others. Studies show that URM students tend to be more depressed and unhappy with themselves and their social life. Many have to "prove" themselves because they have been labeled as"the URM that got in b/c of his URM status and not his hard work and intelligence". This stigma is of course not true, and NO URM should have to "prove" themselves. But, many know this stigma and may even begin to believe it themselves, lowering their esteem and causing depression while being more socially isolated.

It seems to me that admitting by the same academic standards, but policing, watching, educating, and insuring equality is a better way to go.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[daisygirl]

Is this conjecture? Where is the proof? The average MCAT score for an African-American student is a standard deviation below that of a white or Asian student. The number of African- American students who score a 12 or above on the BS section of the MCAT is roughly 17. On the VR section, that number is 11. Of all African-American MCAT retakers, not a single one will score above an 11 on any one section. Where is the intelligence? Where is the work ethic?

This post is insulting; proving your point with sarcastic remarks is ignorant and definitely not well thought out.

I am not a URM. I am white and I have lived in the Bronx my whole life. I was economically disadvantaged for most of life (I am no longer disadvantaged). I feel very strongly that minorities are educationally disadvantaged and, on the most part, economically disadvantaged. I tutor in a public school in the South Bronx and I cannot tell you how bad it is for these kids. They have no resources (crappy old books, a few computers, etc..), the curriculum sucks (they are under prepared when they go to college and many people in the NYC public school system are promoted to make space for the next kid, so it is very likely that a lot of kids are not even prepared to make it to the next grade!), a lot of their teachers suck, etc.. I could go on all day about the educational disparities that are present if you want to compare a suburbia white kid education vs. an inner city kid education. I can only speak about the NYC public education system, but I imagine that the disparities in education are a nationwide problem. How could you expect a kid that gets a sub-par education to compete with a kid that learns calculus in the 9th grade, or a kid that is doing snazzy genetic experiments in high school? (I won't even start about the labs in the NYC public schools).

While kids who get a decent education (read suburban) can go on to college and learn college material. A lot of kids who come from the NYC public school system go on to college but wind up taking many remedial courses; this is a fact (I also know this b/c I am a CUNY student and many of our students need remedial classes). Now, please don't tell me they are in CUNY taking remedial courses b/c they are lower on the intellectual totem pole. The majority of these kids start out with a disadvantage that does not apply to many of your "typical" med student applicants. They have a work ethic and trust me they worked real hard to get there.

Also, many of the primarily white neighborhoods by me construct their curriculums, particularly high schools, around standardized testing, like the SAT's. NYC public schools (which are mainly comprised of minorities) do no such thing. Additionally many of the NYC public schools do not have any prep courses for tests like the SAT (with exceptions like Bronx High School of Science and Stuyvesant-but guess what they are not composed of mostly URM's).

AA is necessary; it would not be if society did the right thing to begin with!

 

[Smileyfree]

...but if you really want to change some things you need to hook it at a lower level. ••

Just my 2 cents. I agree that there should be more URM's in the medical field so that it reflects the population as a whole; however, I also feel that this should be addressed much earlier in the educational cycle. Once a URM gains addmission to a university (even with lower stats, say on the SAT's) they should be viewed as equals. A URM who attends a university HAS NOT received any less prep for medical school then other non-URM students at that same university. Also, compare these 2 students... a URM from a top private (perhaps Ivy League) university... and a non-URM from a "never-heard-of" state college. Who received the better pre-med education? How is it that the URM, from the Ivy League, can still be considered for medical school with lower stats than the non-URM? AA should exist! However, I am also against blanket AA. All individuals being considered for med school addmission should have to meet the same criteria. Any exceptions should be made on an individual basis, not based on race.

 

[Amy B]

Here are stats directly from AAMC. I think these are the stats people are referring to. The first score is VS, then PS, BS and writing sample score. The numbers in () represent the standard deviation.

April/August 2000 MCAT Performance

TOTAL 54,808 7.8 (2.4) 8.2 (2.4) 8.3 (2.4) O
GENDER
Female 28,655 7.7 (2.4) 7.7 (2.2) 8.0 (2.4) O
Male 26,140 7.8 (2.4) 8.7 (2.4) 8.7 (2.4) O
RACE/ETHNIC GROUP
White 31,495 8.3 (2.2) 8.4 (2.2) 8.6 (2.2) O
Black 15,116 6.0 (2.3) 6.3 (2.0) 6.3 (2.3) N
Mexican American Chicano 2 1,222 6.9 (2.3) 7.1 (2.1) 7.3 (2.3) O
American Indian 3 330 7.3 (2.3) 6.9 (1.9) 7.2 (2.2) O
Native Alaskan 4 10 7.7 (1.6) 8.0 (1.4) 8.0 (1.8) O
Native Hawaiian 5 41 7.1 (2.2) 7.7 (2.0) 8.0 (2.1) N
Puerto Rico - Mainland 6 447 6.1 (2.6) 6.6 (2.1) 6.6 (2.6) M
Puerto Rico - Commonwealth 7 951 4.6 (2.1) 5.4 (1.6) 5.3 (2.1) K
Asian 8 11,351 7.6 (2.4) 8.9 (2.3) 8.8 (2.3) O
Other Hispanic 9 1,282 7.2 (2.4) 7.5 (2.2) 7.8 (2.3) O
Underrepresented Minority (1,2,3,4,5,6) 7,169 6.2 (2.3) 6.5 (2.0) 6.5 (2.3) N
Other Minority (7,8,9) 13,589 7.4 (2.5) 8.6 (2.5) 8.5 (2.5) O


I know numerous URM's at my school. They all said that they don't like to be considered URM's. They want to get to school based on their stats and acomplishments. Our school offers programs that are only open for URM's and my friends have chosen not to participate in these URM-only programs. They feel it is degrading and feels like someone thinks they need a hand out.

There are numerous African-Americans that are prominate people in this country that speak out against AA and other progrmas that make their race look like they need extra help. They feel it is an insult to them.

As I said before I don't feel like URM's are dumb, lazy or incompetant. I just have noticed when people talk about lower stats it seems like on this message board someone (or the poster) says or asks if they are URM as if that will excuse the lower stats.

Check out the posts about stats and you see if you don't see what I mean. These posts are the reason behind me starting this topic. I truely don't want to attack people or have others attacking each other. Really, that is not my intention.

 

[Ranger Bob]

Originally posted by corleone:
•i personally think it's sad when people degrade someone's acceptance because their stats weren't as good AND that they happen to be a URM.•••

The statistics show that URM's are held to a lower standard for MCAT and GPA. For instance, in 1993 the average VR score for rejected white males was 8.0, while the average for accepted black males was 7.5 (Source: "Getting Into Medical School," 8th edition, by Sanford J. Brown, MD). I doubt that this discrepancy has changed since 1993, and I doubt that the discrepancy is much different for other sections of the MCAT or for GPA.

I agree with you that it's sad when non-URM's assume that URM's gained admission because URM's are held to a lower standard. It's even sadder that URM's believe they cannot compete on a level playing field. That's why I oppose affirmative action. It's unfair to whites and damaging to the self-esteem of URM's.

 

[daisygirl]

It's even sadder that URM's believe they cannot compete on a level playing field. That's why I oppose affirmative action. It's unfair to whites and damaging to the self-esteem of URM's. ••

Do you honestly believe that the field is level. URM's, on the most part, do not have the same educational oppurtunities. Case in point-who wants to get into property taxes and the distribution of them in funding the public school system.

 

[jmejia1]

Amy Beth,you don't have to be a "URM" to be considered disadvantaged. If you feel your disadvantaged no one would've stopped you from checking off disadvantaged on your AMCAS application and then explaining your hardship right below.

Lets please stop the scapegoating, both directly and indirectly.

I think there is a misconception regarding admissions of URMs. Yes as a whole these groups score lower, but that doesnt' mean that just because someone's name is Pablo Hernandez he's going to get into med school with substantially lower stats than others. The people I've known personally (no second hand or "I read in the internet" crap) that were URMs and got accepted in years past were all very sharp, hardworking students with high gpas and mcat scores. I've known of no one with the 3.2 and 23 MCAT getting into med school like many would love to believe.

 

[Ranger Bob]

Originally posted by daisygirl:
•

Do you honestly believe that the field is level. URM's, on the most part, do not have the same educational oppurtunities. Case in point-who wants to get into property taxes and the distribution of them in funding the public school system.•••

I believe that racial discrimination is wrong, regardless of which group benefits and which group suffers.

I think that the distribution of funds for public schools is somewhat off-topic, but I did read an editorial about the topic in today's New York Times. By all means, let's fix the public school system! But let's fix the problem at its source (school funding laws), not through discriminatory medical school admissions policies.

 

[daisygirl]

I believe that racial discrimination is wrong, regardless of which group benefits and which group suffers.

I think that the distribution of funds for public schools is somewhat off-topic, but I did read an editorial about the topic in today's New York Times. By all means, let's fix the public school system! But let's fix the problem at its source (school funding laws), not through discriminatory medical school admissions policies.
••

I don't think that the distribution of funds for p.schools is off-topic because this is one, of the many, reasons why inner city kids (which tend to be minorities) are at an educational disadvantage, thus helping create the uneven playing field.

I agree with you in that discriminatory policies are wrong. The problem is, if we don't have policies like AA (that try to even the playing field because of its inconsistencies); what are we going to do? Nobody seems to know (people have lots of opinions, but there are too few who actually seem to get something done). So, until something concrete is done to reform the playing field, I will continue to support AA.

 

[E'01]

My concern is what happens when a quota gets filled at a particular school due to too many URM applicants applying for the same slots?

 

[Nikki]

Originally posted by E'01:
•My concern is what happens when a quota gets filled at a particular school due to too many URM applicants applying for the same slots?•••

First of all, schools don't have "quotas". Second of all, you need to be worrying about what YOU are doing to keep yourself out of school rather than worry about what someone else is doing to keep you out of medical school. Focus on yourself first and don't assume that you are entitled to a spot. YOU have to work for it, it can't be taken from you.

 

[A. Caveman]

here's what's happening here...

everybody is talking, valuable points are made, but in confusing paragraph form.

nobody keeps track of pros and cons for this argument. this could go in circles forever and no definitive conclusions will be made in the end. unless somebody wants to summarize, remove illogical posts, and generally do some housekeeping.

nobody will do that, so I am done contributing OR reading this annoying thread. i love debating when i can teach somebody something or learn something. none of that will happen here. this will ultimately be a waste of our time. don't believe me...try to remember all the points made here tomorrow. see if you learned anything

 

[E'01]

Originally posted by Nikki:
•

First of all, schools don't have "quotas". Second of all, you need to be worrying about what YOU are doing to keep yourself out of school rather than worry about what someone else is doing to keep you out of medical school. Focus on yourself first and don't assume that you are entitled to a spot. YOU have to work for it, it can't be taken from you.•••


Nikki, I'm not quite sure if I understand your point. What I meant to say is this: as a Black Female applicant who recently received a letter from a medical school stating that if I choose to give up my acceptance, I must do so in a timely manner so that another worthy minority student may get in, I take it to understand that quotas DO exist. My only question was that what happens to other minority applicants when those seats are taken? Are they then considered in the non-URM pool?

 

[love Mom]

Hi Everyone,

(I hope I do this right Yep, I'm a Mom of a pre-med student (actually, he just graduated in December and found out he has been accepted to Creighton...whoohoo!) anyway, I kind of like finding all kinds of things on the net. I wish I had found all of you this past June/July!! If you don't want me in your forum, please say so.....in the meantime, I'll be quiet and behave myself.

Regarding the current topic...I really don't want to get into the discussion, except to share a link that I found a while back. It's quite long, but by skimming you should be able to get the general idea. It's: <a href="http://www.ceousa.org/multimed.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.ceousa.org/multimed.pdf</a>

Good luck to each and every one of you,

Mom

 

[Nikki]

Originally posted by E'01:
•


Nikki, I'm not quite sure if I understand your point. What I meant to say is this: as a Black Female applicant who recently received a letter from a medical school stating that if I choose to give up my acceptance, I must do so in a timely manner so that another worthy minority student may get in, I take it to understand that quotas DO exist. My only question was that what happens to other minority applicants when those seats are taken? Are they then considered in the non-URM pool?•••

Sorry E'01, I misunderstood you. That's kinda disturbing though that they would say that your spot specifically goes to another minority student . . .

 

[A. Caveman]

mom, thanks for the link. just what i needed.

also, i believe it's fair to compare URM's with other URM's, and have a certain number of spots within the class for them. nonURM's should not be compared with them, they should be compared with themselves. and They should have a certain number of spots for them. it seems this is how it's done. it's not fair that perhaps some nonURM's that are in worse socioeconomic conditions and are more disadvantaged than the average URM, are compared with other URM's (probably with higher numbers). but then who ever promised us life was fair? take those lemons and make lemonade.

 

[bebe2]

Originally posted by Amy Beth:
•Here are stats directly from AAMC. I think these are the stats people are referring to. The first score is VS, then PS, BS and writing sample score. The numbers in () represent the standard deviation.

April/August 2000 MCAT Performance

TOTAL 54,808 7.8 (2.4) 8.2 (2.4) 8.3 (2.4) O
GENDER
Female 28,655 7.7 (2.4) 7.7 (2.2) 8.0 (2.4) O
Male 26,140 7.8 (2.4) 8.7 (2.4) 8.7 (2.4) O
RACE/ETHNIC GROUP
White 31,495 8.3 (2.2) 8.4 (2.2) 8.6 (2.2) O
Black 15,116 6.0 (2.3) 6.3 (2.0) 6.3 (2.3) N
Mexican American Chicano 2 1,222 6.9 (2.3) 7.1 (2.1) 7.3 (2.3) O
American Indian 3 330 7.3 (2.3) 6.9 (1.9) 7.2 (2.2) O
Native Alaskan 4 10 7.7 (1.6) 8.0 (1.4) 8.0 (1.8) O
Native Hawaiian 5 41 7.1 (2.2) 7.7 (2.0) 8.0 (2.1) N
Puerto Rico - Mainland 6 447 6.1 (2.6) 6.6 (2.1) 6.6 (2.6) M
Puerto Rico - Commonwealth 7 951 4.6 (2.1) 5.4 (1.6) 5.3 (2.1) K
Asian 8 11,351 7.6 (2.4) 8.9 (2.3) 8.8 (2.3) O
Other Hispanic 9 1,282 7.2 (2.4) 7.5 (2.2) 7.8 (2.3) O
Underrepresented Minority (1,2,3,4,5,6) 7,169 6.2 (2.3) 6.5 (2.0) 6.5 (2.3) N
Other Minority (7,8,9) 13,589 7.4 (2.5) 8.6 (2.5) 8.5 (2.5) O


I know numerous URM's at my school. They all said that they don't like to be considered URM's. They want to get to school based on their stats and acomplishments. Our school offers programs that are only open for URM's and my friends have chosen not to participate in these URM-only programs. They feel it is degrading and feels like someone thinks they need a hand out.

There are numerous African-Americans that are prominate people in this country that speak out against AA and other progrmas that make their race look like they need extra help. They feel it is an insult to them.

As I said before I don't feel like URM's are dumb, lazy or incompetent. I just have noticed when people talk about lower stats it seems like on this message board someone (or the poster) says or asks if they are URM as if that will excuse the lower stats.

Check out the posts about stats and you see if you don't see what I mean. These posts are the reason behind me starting this topic. I truely don't want to attack people or have others attacking each other. Really, that is not my intention.•••


Oh Amy. I know I might get flamed for this one. You keep saying we are more than stats but you keep posting them. So we know that the AAMC stats also show that MCAT scores are lower with increasing age of test-taker. You yourself agree.

Now, is it possible, just possible that some older applicants are given consideration because of wonderful life experiences, dedication to a future career in medicine, work experience, etc and not because of their MCAT scores?

Should older applicants feel insulted when accepted to medical schools (though not enough get in)? Should they stand up and say "wait a minute here I will give you back my acceptance I did not do as well on my MCATs or my undergrad GPA was a little low)

My arguement, though a tad simplistic is valid. Older applicants are competing against each other also in the admissions process. They work hard, some have 2-3 degrees, and apply every year since undergrad. There are less in each class because just like URMs, less apply. I couldn't agree more that someone who is older has worked mad hard to get into medical school. They have experienced life, know much more about so much about the med admiss process and still say "hey, I still want to go to medical school".

What I am trying to show you that MCAT scores are not a predictor of success or the measure of someone's intelligence and hard-work.

What else you got?


The AA system is not perfect. I think that it should be based on socio-economic factors also. But we still have to account for racism and sexism that exists in the work-place and dare I say it, the med admissions process.

I get interviews from schools where I am like WTF how did that happen. And I agree with others (Caveman, etc) that URMs are competing against each other.

What we know now is that more URMs than non-URMs come from disadvantaged backgrounds (economically, educationally, medically). But I do not necessarily think that URMs get accepted because of "hardship". SCOOBY IS WRONG. It is the liklihood that we will return to our communities.

I worked at a clinic in Baltimore(1 white doctor, 5 black), most of the students who also voluneered there were non-URM. My non-URM friends were terrified of that part of town. You guys will never understand how we feel to see a patient who looks like us, with the same background who is dying of some preventable disease because of lack of education and knowledge.

You may feel that same anger and think "I will go to my lab and make some cure for this disease"
I think " I want to reach this person where they are."

My friends and I know of the mistrust these patients feel towards white doctors. They can talk to us and we can reach them more than you guys can. When I see such a patient, I am even more motivated to work in these communities.

If this sounds too melodramatic then that is because you have no idea how it feels.

Not enough said!