I don't mean to anger people but.....

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Hi Everyone,

Bebe2, I thought that was a great point. In one of my interviews, my interviewer was saying that one component that admissions committees look at are the set of "tools" you can bring to medicine based on your experiences. For a URM that might be the ability to relate to people from their communities, which might be just as valuable in being a doctor as good stats.

What surprises me is that a lot of questions are raised about URMs with lower stats being admitted to medical school, but few people mention anything about the unfairness of legacy or being asked if you have a family member working at the school.

Someone had asked why there are so many white and Asian interviewees and fewer black, hispanic, or American Indian. I believe this is simply because there are more white and Asian applicants. If you look at the AAMC information, the percentage of whites taking the MCAT is 63.7, Asians 20.3, blacks 8.5, American Indian/ Alaskan/ Hawaiian .7, Hispanic/ Mexican American 2.2, Hispanic/ Puerto Rico 1.6, and other Hispanic 2.4.

Amy Beth, I'm glad that you raised this question because I think it's been a good discussion that's made me think a lot about the topic.

EC
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like caveman thinks, this conversation will end up with a bunch of separate ideas with a lot of arguments, but no real solution. that's why i guess this issue has been in battle for so long and by so many people.

i just wanted to address the issue of schools asking if a parent/sibling had graduated from the school. i see nothing wrong with this. i'm the first generation living in america, so i don't have any ties to med school here, but like any other corporation, med schools should have the autonomy to take into consideration people with a tie to the school. if my father worked at ibm, i'm sure i would get in much easier as an employee. same with med school because as an alumni, they most likely have given money to the school and brought the school some form of "advertisement" through their practice.

med schools are a business at heart, and money rules. i'm sure if you or your family donated millions to a med school, you would get in much more easily, even if you didn't have ties to the school. i don't think is inherently wrong, just a way to honor those who helped the school. i'm interested to see other's opinions on this.
 
Hi guys... I think I have an interesting analogy:

Ok, so URMs are admitted into medical schools based on lower MCATs / GPAs, in order to ensure diversity in medical schools and in the profession of medicine (since there are far more white/asian physicians than there are black) Right? Everyone agree so far?

Lets use this same argument and look at the NBA. The NBA has FAR more black players than white players. So one can argue that there is NO DIVERSITY in the NBA. Right?

So should we apply affirmative action to the NBA? Should a white guy that can't jump as high, run as fast, shoot as well as a black man be accepted to play in the NBA for the sake of diversity? Is that fair?

My point is not to say that just because a URM performs worst on the MCAT then he/she will be a bad doctor. That's BS. The MCAT doesn't measure one's compassion, integrity, and a lot of other characteristics needed to be a doctor. However, it does predict one's performance on the STEP 1 of the USMLE. People with lower MCATs will have a harder time passing the USMLE Step 1.

Back to the NBA analogy:
If a white guy can't shoot, can't run, etc... I don't think that he should just be admitted into the NBA on lower standards. Instead, wouldn't it be better to establish a program to help him exercise, run, practice shoot, etc, such that he builds the endurance and other qualities needed to play in the NBA.

This is the same thing that should be done in the case of Affirmative Action. Instead of admitting people based on lower standards, funds should be allocated to attack the problem at the source. If a URM performs worst on the MCAT than a white guy, one can argue that a URM did not have $ to take an MCAT prep course... fine - then we should use sponsor programs that will enable URMs to take free / low cost MCAT prep courses. Are they having problems in school? Fine, we should offer free tutoring.

My point is that it's not right to admit people based on different standards based on the color of their skin.
 
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I guess I have to play devils advocate. Although I am an african american, it has nothing to do with my economic background. I am from an upper middle class background in a two parent home, living in the suburbs all my life and going to prep school. I know a lot of people who are a lot worse off than me financially who are not black. I may be an acception to the rule, but all of the generalizations in these posts are to much. A lot of us don't know what it is that disadvantaged people go through on there road through life, and just because I am a URM doesn't mean that I know either.
 
"What I am trying to show you that MCAT scores are not a predictor of success or the measure of someone's intelligence and hard-work."

Actually, the MCAT is a strong predictor of medical school grades and USMLE scores.

<a href="http://www.studentdoctor.net/cgibin/ubbcgi/ultimaebb.cgi?ubb=reply&f=1&t=007264&replyto=000050" target="_blank">http://www.studentdoctor.net/cgibin/ubbcgi/ultimaebb.cgi?ubb=reply&f=1&t=007264&replyto=000050</a>


"The AA system is not perfect. I think that it should be based on socio-economic factors also. But we still have to account for racism and sexism that exists in the work-place and dare I say it, the med admissions process."

Racism in the med admissions process? Let me repeat my earlier point: YOU GET ACCEPTED AT A RATE SIMILAR TO WHITE AND ASIAN STUDENTS DESPITE THE FACT THAT ON AVERAGE YOUR MCAT SCORE (the best predictor of med school grades and USMLE performance) IS A STANDARD DEVIATION BELOW THESE STUDENTS' SCORES. White guys like David Horowitz can't even step foot on college campuses without bodyguards, and you get accepted with scores a standard deviation below the scores of your white and Asian peers. Where is the racism?
If you are so concerned with racism, why don't we, as Ward Connerly has suggested, make admissions race-blind? You won't report your race or even your name on your application. That way, members of the admissions committee cannot possibly "discriminate" against you for being URM.

What we know now is that more URMs than non-URMs come from disadvantaged backgrounds (economically, educationally, medically).

Wrong. What we do know is that even when you control for socioeconomic status on standardized tests like the MCAT, URM performance still lags behind that of white/Asian performance by a standard deviation. In addition, your contention that most URMs are riddled in poverty is simply incorrect. The number of black families living in poverty is roughly one in four. In addition, only 1 in 5 blacks live in the inner city.

See: One in five blacks live in the inner city: U.S. Bureau of the Census, Current Population Reports, pp. 20-471, The Black Population in the United States: March 1992 (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1993), table 15, cited in T, p. 581.

With regard to educational disparities, what we know is that black students in solid schools do little better than the ones failing in poor schools. In addition, studies have shown that poor refugees from Southeast Asia, arriving with limited English skills and going to school in the very "ghetto" inner-city public schools considered a sentence to failure for black kids, did excellently in school and on standardized tests.

See: Southeast Asian academic achievement: Nathan Caplan, Marcella H. Choy, and John K. Whitmore, The Boat People and Achievement in America: A Study of Family Life, Hard Work, and Cultural Values (Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 1989); Nathan Caplan, Marella H. Choy, and John K. Whitmore,"Indochinese Refugee Families and Academic Achievement," Scientific American, February 1992.


It is the liklihood that we will return to our communities.

I think this is what pisses me off most about AA. Why should "your" communities be treated by individuals who were admitted under a lowered bar? Don't they deserve the best just like everyone else?
 
Toobsllik

I give up!

You will continue to twist what i am saying. When did I state that MOST URMs come from disadvantaged backgrounds?

Why are you so angry? How much time do you spend researching this?
What is your point? That URMs are less intelligent period and should not go to Medical School? We score a standard deviation lower than whites. Should only whites be allowed into medical school? What about older applicants who score lower than younger ones?

Here is my overall point (This is my last post, PM if you like). Everyone can gripe and moan about the admissions process. But why is it when some people are not accepted or do not get interviews to a particular school, they suddenly blame URMs? How do you know that those accepted are less qualified? By MCAT scores? What else ?
GPA?

Did you read their essays? RECS? ECS? How do you know?

I have said that I don't know how this all works. I even said that I have no idea how I have recieved interviews from some top 5 schools, based on my GPA and MCAT scores(higher than the average white student by the way, shocked huh?).

DO all URMs have hardship? ABSOLTUELY NOT. I never said that. I grew up in a lower-class neighboorhood, now I live in an upper-class one .

Are there some non-URMs who have hardship? YES!!!!
AMY BETH is one! If statistics show that her group scores lower on the MCAT, should she be denied admissions?

Sigh.

I don't know what else to say. We will keep disagreeing on this.

Good luck with everything.

BEBE
 
toobsllik: can everyone just agree that you are a racist. If medschools could see they things you have posted here you wouldn't have to worry about a URM taking your spot because you would never be considered.

By the comments that you have made you are saying that african-americans are inherently not as intelligent as everyone else. That has got to be the most ignorant point of view I have ever heard, and I would appreciate it if you stayed away from the subject of intelligence since it is obvious that you know nothing about the issue.
 
Charleb32, great point. I am half hispanic but I have grown up in a two parent white household for the majority of my life. I don't know that I can really share in the experiences of other hispanics but I do plan to serve that community when I become a doctor.

I am torn about what I think of affirmative action. I think the goals of AA are mostly noble but the practice of it doesn't always work. I have received a grant for undergrad because of the fact that I am half hispanic. I know many of my classmates from the economically disadvantaged where I grew up who could have used the grant as much as I could but were white, so never had the opportunity to even apply for it.

I think, we as med schools in general, put too much emphasis on GPA and MCATs, more than many medical schools do. Perhaps, med school admissions people realize that some URMs can bring experiences and ideas to med schools which may be more important than a few obscure bio facts. I don't think that I am even considered as a URM for med school because I am Guatemalan and not Mexican or Puerto Rican, but I would hate for someone to assume that I got into med school simply because of minority status and not because of my hard work. If med school was all about stats, why did we have to fill out that AMCAS app listing our ECs and write as many essays as we all have?
 
Sammmeyeam


This is the same thing that should be done in the case of Affirmative Action. Instead of admitting people based on lower standards, funds should be allocated to attack the problem at the source. If a URM performs worst on the MCAT than a white guy, one can argue that a URM did not have $ to take an MCAT prep course... fine - then we should use sponsor programs that will enable URMs to take free / low cost MCAT prep courses. Are they having problems in school? Fine, we should offer free tutoring.••

As a non-URM who thinks she knows a little about this issue, (I taught in an inner-city, all black high school for two years) I think that no one would dispute this idea...the entire point of AA is to try and level the playing field. It was never intended to be a long term solution, only a temporary one until URM numbers "caught up" with non-URM's. So, YES!!! it's incredibly important to do the things suggested above (offer free tutoring, reduced price MCAT courses--I actually taught one of these at a Historically Black College last year) and there is a lot of that happening, which is great! But in the meantime, AA has to and should continue until these discrepancies no longer exist.

This topic always spurs heated discussions, often by people who feel slighted by the system. I think it's great, too often people are afraid to discuss...thanks for the interesting thread!
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Private message from Simpleton to me:

"I don't care if you like my statements or not. The fact that you've interviewed at more schools than I is irrelevant. At one of my interviews there were 40+ people. Loose the narrow-sited view that you are always right. Remember don't loose site of the forest for the tree. "

First off, I wasn't trying to get you mad simpleton...That's fine if you haven't seen any URMs...just please please expand on what you say. That's something that gets no my nerves (even though we are all guilty of it at times)...making statements that we think will hold up as fact without support. Oh, and you are a bigger ninny
:p

The only thing I said I did not like was the fact that you used a one word to make it seem like that was the end of it. Remember that URM is not equal to BLACK. Some people may look one race but in reality they are really a URM. My one good friend is latino but he looks white...I wasn't using the fact that I interviewed at more schools than you to say anything except to say that at every school I have seen URMs. I have to say is that at only one of my interviews did I notice there were absolutely no URM's...and that was at Vandy. 2 asian guys, 2 white guys, and 2 white girls. That was it. Of course they only were interviewing 7 people that day and they interview almost every day of the week I think.
When you say, I haven't seen any URM's at any place I have been PERIOD...then what am I supposed to say. I will assume that you went to a place where only 5 people interviewed. If you back it up a little more by saying "There were 40 people and I looked at every one of their AMCAS applications under what they designated their ethnicity to be and it was NOT a URM." then I'll jump up and give you some applause. but if you just sit there and type "I am cool...PERIOD" then how the hell am I supposed to know anything about what you are saying. Grow your roots strong into the ground with many many roots...don't just shoot one taproot down a few inches and hope that the winds won't be strong enough to blow you down.
 
Haha...real mature simpleton :)
Damn you take offense easily!!
Jeez...I already got on your ignore list :)
 
Originally posted by charleb32:
•toobsllik: can everyone just agree that you are a racist. If medschools could see they things you have posted here you wouldn't have to worry about a URM taking your spot because you would never be considered.

By the comments that you have made you are saying that african-americans are inherently not as intelligent as everyone else. That has got to be the most ignorant point of view I have ever heard, and I would appreciate it if you stayed away from the subject of intelligence since it is obvious that you know nothing about the issue.•••

Toobsllik has not said anything racist. He has just provided facts (and their support) w/o drawing conclusions. He did NOT say that blacks' poor performance as a group was due to less intelligence. YOU (charleb32) inferred that all on your own. What he DID state is that studies show that changing schools does not change the overall performance of blacks. He did not make these studies up (I don't think :) ) He merely pointed to them. Again, he did NOT attribute the lower scores of blacks to lower intelligence. (I believe that sociologists attribute the results of these studies to cultural issues, but that is besides the point here.)

Everyone on this forum is supposed to be a scientist, yet when AA is discussed, no one wants to evaluate its success using scientific methodologies and logic, rather than emotions. Ai-ya! (And, anyone who wants to use the word 'racist' should look up its definition first.)
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What I find strange is how many medical schools make statements like, "This school does not discriminate on the basis of race, sex, religion, etc." I'm not going to argue for or against affirmative action, but, if a school is indeed going to implement the policy, they should not be able to make that statement, or they should change it to something like, "This school DOES discriminate on the basis of race..."
 
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Originally posted by YBee:
•

Toobsllik has not said anything racist. He has just provided facts (and their support) w/o drawing conclusions. He did NOT say that blacks' poor performance as a group was due to less intelligence. YOU (charleb32) inferred that all on your own. What he DID state is that studies show that changing schools does not change the overall performance of blacks. He did not make these studies up (I don't think :) ) He merely pointed to them. Again, he did NOT attribute the lower scores of blacks to lower intelligence. (I believe that sociologists attribute the results of these studies to cultural issues, but that is besides the point here.)

Everyone on this forum is supposed to be a scientist, yet when AA is discussed, no one wants to evaluate its success using scientific methodologies and logic, rather than emotions. Ai-ya! (And, anyone who wants to use the word 'racist' should look up its definition first.)•••

Actually he did say some things that are rather racist.

1. "I think this is what pisses me off most about AA. Why should "your" communities be treated by individuals who were admitted under a lowered bar? Don't they deserve the best just like everyone else?"

The assumption that URM doctors are automatically of less quality. Please show me some statistics that says that they are worse doctors . . .

2. "Is this conjecture? Where is the proof? The average MCAT score for an African-American student is a standard deviation below that of a white or Asian student. The number of African- American students who score a 12 or above on the BS section of the MCAT is roughly 17. On the VR secion, that number is 11. Of all African-American MCAT retakers, not a single one will score above an 11 on any one section. Where is the intelligence? Where is the work ethic?"

Again, as I pointed out earlier, it seems that he made a CONCLUSION that black test takers are dumb and lazy.


I think one large factor in this admission games is what you have to offer. The fact is that medical schools give URMs credit for having one aspect to offer underserved communities that they don't automatically credit others with having. Likewise, everyone has something to offer that others do not. Apparently (as we all should know) MCAT scores are not everything.
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"I believe that sociologists attribute the results of these studies to cultural issues, but that is besides the point here."

This is, indeed, what I believe. I do not believe in inherent genetic differences among "races." Hell, I don't even like the term "race."
I am genuinely concerned with test score disparities; I do not look at URMs for a scapegoat. (I have already been accepted at my first-choice medical school).
 
I don't think Toobslik said anything racist.

He actually made a very intelligent argument, and provided lots of facts.

Why do you have to straight out just call him racist? Why can't you defend your argument with FACTS as he has, instead of playing the race card?
 
I just want to add my quick 2 cents, as the pro-AA/anti-AA debate will not be solved on a pre-med support web site.

a) Health services studies have shown that minority patients feel better communication with doctors of the same race/ethnicity. In addition, patients who are matched racially/ethnically with their physicians take a more active role in their own preventive care.

b) An ENORMOUS part of "education" is learning from people who are not like you. And, yes, everyone understands that there are cultural and economic disparities among people who are of the same racial or ethnic group. However, during the course of one's education, one should be exposed to as much diversity as possible. As physicians, our greatest resource will be each other. If a majority physician comes across a minority patient who is too afraid of being treating poorly to talk to this physician, will the majority physician have a higher chance of success in treating the patient if the physician is culturally competent? I think so. Can you learn cultural competence from watching movies or TV or following the love life of Jennifer Lopez? No way. You gain cultural competence by being around people who are different from you.

c) Scores are not everything.

d) Minority population in growing. In 28 years minorities will no longer be minorities. Do you think that this new majority is going to stand for having only approx. 10% of practicing physicians be of the same race/ethnicity as they? Again, no way.

I know AA gets everybody heated because people feel like they are being cheated on the one hand and looked down upon on the other. But the reality is, until we can come up with a better, fair system that takes into account things other than numbers and finances and skin color, this is the best we have.

mma
 
ok toobsllik, you say that urms have scores a standard dev below whites/asians. most don't live in poverty so that has no factor in scores. and that southeast asians in the same situation as blacks score higher. i can only guess that this is saying that blacks, even in similar socioeconomic situations, score less than other races, so they must be less intelligent. please clarify your point if this is incorrect, because you bust out with a bunch of stats, then don't give your ideas on why this happens and what solutions you have.

i think aa for the time being is a good thing. i think socioeconomic factors do have an affect. culture is also an important factor (studies may not be IN GENERAL as important to blacks as say asians). whatever it is, we need black doctors because doctors, unlike basketball players, are essential cogs in our society that serve the people. black patients, i think, are more likely to feel comfortable with black doctors, same like female patients feel comfortable with female doctors. in order to get black, hispanic, american indian doctors in the field, we must make an effort to establish them into the medical society. many of you give ideas of funnelling money to prospective students for kaplan courses, strengthening predominately urm schools, but have these things happened? no, so at this moment, AA is essential in diversifying the academic population. in the future, we may see concrete plans at helping urms with actual needs, and then AA would not be necessary, but at this moment, there is a discrepancy and AA is a decent solution.
 
Originally posted by mma:
•
a) Health services studies have shown that minority patients feel better communication with doctors of the same race/ethnicity. In addition, patients who are matched racially/ethnically with their physicians take a more active role in their own preventive care.
•••
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Ok, let's all stay cool. I sure don't want people getting so worked up.

It is true I do come from a hardship childhood, but I was able to work hard, get married and now am pretty well to do. I guess I feel that is my point. Where there is a will to achieve there will most always be a way to do it. My husband went to college and we worked hard through the last 17 years to achieve our very comfortable lifestyle, but it wasn't always easy.

I guess what I will say is I think everyone should work hard in order to better themselves. When people achieve things on their own they feel more pride and great satisfaction. That is important to one's personal soul, that part of them that drives them to continue. If they see they are getting special rights they may not feel the same about themselves inside. This is also what my URM friends have said to me. This is also why a lot of important African-Americans speak against AA

I think what we can all agree on is the system seems flawed in places and really needs to be worked on.

I feel it is an insult for schools to assign a certain amount of seats for URM's. How do they know how many will be qualified? What if they assign 10 spots but there are 20 qualified what happens then? One of our posters said they talked about this when they told her to deceide asap so they could give your seat to another URM. Isn't that worrisome to people who have spoken out so passionatly in these posts.

When I was a freshman pre-med I felt lost in the process which lie before me. A girl in chemistry was talking about a great program she was in that assigned her a mentoring doctor which stays involved with her till graduation. she also talked about a test taking skills class, shadowing and seminars all about the pre-med track. I was so interested and asked her where I sign up. She looked at me and said "It's not for you. You won't be allowed." Shocked, I replied why not and she said "Cause you aren't black and I am. It's only for URM's."

So that meant I had to find out all about things on my own. I looked for oportunities to shadow, volunteer, looked for mentoring souls to assist me when I needed help." All on my own as a student who hadn't been in school for years and felt lost but driven to succeed. Which I did.

This is why I have been a pre-med society officer for two years. I wanted to help guide people in the pre-med process. That is why I post quite often on this list. Getting some help is fine, being handed things with no work on your part is not fine and won't help you succeed in life.

Sorry to go on and on.

Amy
 
Wow interesting thread. I had to register to contribute to this one.

I agree that toobsillk has made several racist remarks during the course of this thread. I think we should all be very careful not to become too desensitized to racism. Let's call a spade a spade when we see one.

Take school A for example. It has a class size of almost 130 students; of which 4 are African American and 1 is hispanic. Yet there are 1,200 steamingly angry disgruntled applicants at large who didn't get interviewed at this school. They ALL (this proper sub-set of the rejected) are furious at AA and those 5 "undeserving" nigas and spiks who stole their seats. What is the UNDERLYING cause of this pervasive anger? Let's stop kidding ourselves. By the way I forgot to mention that school A is in a big city where the patient population is predominantly African American; and the city is ridden with Drogs, STDs, and inadequate healthcare for its several large poor minority ghettos. Medicine is about being compassionate and helping the sick. Are kids from these backgrounds expected to perform ACADEMICALLY at the same or higher levels than kids with previledge and access? I sure hope not. Though as far as Hippocretes was (is) concerned, they probably will perform even better in medicine than the previledged. May God help America.
 
I must say, reading this has been very interesting! This topic has been discussed very much in my family partly because my husband has a sociology degree and works in this field, and partly because I have 3 half black/ half white nieces/nephews, a black brother in law, an indian/black sister in law, and an indian cousin (full Papago). I myself am white, middle class. While I don't have stats and sources to back up what I'm going to say(only because I'm too lazy to dig them out) I know it's valid, and does have research that backs it up.

There's way more to how a person performs on standardized tests than their socioeconimc status, race, or nationality. While there are very obvious links that these all play a role, (for instance, poorer economic status IS linked to poorer performance etc) It is not the end-all-say all. Much (and I would venture to say MOST) has to do with the mentality of the family, and/or friends one grows up with. If you are in a family that values education, chances are, you will value education too. If you are in a family that puts the emphasis on family relationships above all else, chances are, you will too. Of course, these are broad generalizations, but they are based on fact. Many people are told, while they are children, what they can/ can't do, what they are capable of becoming as an adult etc., and never really question it. Of course in school, we've all been told "you can do ANYTHING you want when you grow up" but how many of us actually believe this? If you hear that at school, but at home you hear how worthless you are, you are going to believe those who are closest to you, not necessarily those who are right. In the same way, if you grow up in a home or neighborhood where more value is placed on spending time with family/friends than education, you will probably feel the same way and spend less time studying, reading etc, than someone who grows up in a family of scholars. Is one smarter than the other? No! Will one probably do better than the other on a standardized test? Yes! My sister in law is a case in point. She grew up in a family where providing for your family was most important, and way more important than education. While she was a straight A student, it never occurred to her that she could go to college, she just immediately got a job, and has been working at that same job for the last 16 years. Although she could get into any school of her choice, that was not really an option, because to her, working was more important and is what was expected. I on the other hand, grew up in a family where education is very important, and it never occurred to me NOT to go to college. Your basic value system and that of your family and/or friends is a BIG predictor on your ability to succeed, or to even want to succeed at a particular thing.

As to differing performance of different races on standardized tests, yes, there is definitely a difference, as many previous posters have shown. Again, I'm going to make sweeping generalizations, but there is research that backs them up. Asians often perform the best on standardized tests. Are asians smarter than other races? Many say yes. Several sociological studies have shown however that much of this higher performance is linked to high expectations at home. Many asian children grow up in homes where education and testing well are extremely important. Since this is a basic value, they tend to do better, because it is encouraged and expected. People of a low socioeconomic status tend to do very poorly on standardized tests, regardless of their race or even the school they go to. It's not the education people are exposed to that makes them do well or not, it's external pressures of family and friends and internal motivation and self-esteem. What's most important to you as well as what you believe you can do will more often than not determine how well you do at a particular thing. Generally, the Black and Native American population is at a lower socioeconomic level than the asian or white population. (notice I said GENERALLY. This is not always true). Many, including me, believe that this is due to lingering effects from years of exposure to racism (if you or your parents or grandparents were told often enough that you are inferior, wouldn't you tend to believe it at some level, if only subconsiously?) Racism still exists, and despite what anyone else might say, I believe it has long lasting negative effects on people and can affect every aspect of their life, including how they do in school, what they aspire to etc. I wish this wasn't so, but it is. I will never forget hearing my 6 year old biracial nephew telling his 4 year sister during an argument, "Go back to Africa!!" Now where did he hear that? Definitely not from his family. He had no concept of what it even meant, he just knew it was bad, so he said it to his sister. Anyone who says racism doesn't exist, is definitely not of the race in question.

I had plans of ending this on some grand note, but I guess I'm done. My point I guess is that a standardized test is not a predictor of intelligence so much as it is a predictor of how much value you place in it (or what it is testing) as a whole.
 
Things have gotten interesting around here. I think that this question is an interesting one. I hear the argument that everyone should be equal aand as URM I agree. As soon we make it so every child gets the exact same education with the exact same cirriculum, and with the same amount of per pupil spending. And as soon as every child is wanted and supported by their parents. And while I'm at it each child has enough food to eat and exposed to the same violence in their community, and the same exposure to drugs.
But lets get real. The lives of most URMs are very different from the lives of most med school applicant. And yes there are many rich URMS (and believe me they piss off poor URMS) but for the most part we have very diffent ideas of what America has to offer us. And it should sadden us all.
AA happens because its a way for people to think that something is being done about a problem that most people don't want to acknowledge to exist. That are genes are the same but are environments are so different that we could be living in seperate countrys.Maybe when we address that then things would be equal.
 
Do those of you against AA (in the medical school case alone) believe that it's not an effective way to get health care providers for minority/underserved communities? What would be better in terms of cost and effectiveness?
 
pity pity pity.. all these people asking for pity

All you need to do well in school and EARN your spot in medschool is a passion for learning and a pencil... not a MCAT class, not some fancy institution, and certainly not pity

That's what I did. I owned little in my life, worked my butt off since I was 12, and owned little more than a pencil. I was always top of my class. I am a URM and did not designate "disadvantaged."

Hell the twists and turns of life itself are a disadvantage. Everyone has their own issues. Show med schools you can hack it and survive under pressure...don't ask for pity.
 
Originally posted by LilMissDrDoolittle:
•pity pity pity.. all these people asking for pity

That's what I did. I owned little in my life, worked my butt off since I was 12, and owned little more than a pencil. I was always top of my class. I am a URM and did not designate "disadvantaged."

•••

How many URMs out here actually said that they were disadvantaged? I personally didn't, and even if I think I were, I still don't think I would have filled it out, but I just wondered how many people actually put it.
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, I didn't fill out the disadvantaged bubble either. It would have been pure lie.

But if any URM did fill out the disadvantaged bubble, that's fine, too. The disadvantaged essay was on the AMCAS for ANYONE with ANY disadvantage to explain himself or herself (this includes non-URMs, poor kids, rich kids who were neglected, whoever).

I have never viewed my ethnicity as a disadvantage, so the essay was not for me.

Meanwhile, I believe that I have earned my spot in medical school--I worked hard to get in, including actually working and getting some policy stuff published, and (for all you number junkies) my scores were above national average. I, therefore, will never apologize for whatever space I occupy in a medical school. I would wage a bet that most URMs, like most non-URMs, would say that they worked hard and their their places as well. Getting into med school is a crap shoot--sometimes you can do too many of the right things and not get in because med schools think you won't add anything new or interesting to the class or sometimes you my not click with any of your interviewers and not get in. It's a shame, but that's the way it is. And it's certainly not the fault of the 4 or 5 URMs per med school class. We don't get in at the same rate as majority kids. But I think everyone tends to forget that.

mma
 
Amy Beth,

I understand where your frustration is coming from, but you must remember this: the US is playing catch up. If you think that you are not being given a fair shake bec. of AA, why don't you go and enroll in an African American history course, rent "Eyes on the Prize" or "More Power to the People", or spend some time in an inner city community with a low-income family (big kudos to Daisy, but Chicago's got NY beat when it comes to poor public education). Another thing to consider: your African American friends that shun AA and wish to be considered only by merit are thinking the right way, but it's just premature. Their idealism is the goal that AA wishes to achieve, but we just ain't there yet. Keep your own chin up. You will get into med school based upon your own desire, ambition, and accomplishments.

Scooby, I agree with you on your point that the solution to the problem should lie at the root. But as long as public education is funded by tax dollars, it looks pretty grim. But rather than wait for the politicians, I do what I can. If I can help just one child read and write at grade level (I tutor kids with both), that's a huge accomplishment. Another thing to consider:" My mom is a public school teacher, and is very good, but her kids go home to strung-out, abusive, or absent care-givers. Many of her students are sexually abused (boys as well as girls, and this is sixth grade), physically and mentally abused, and get no support whatsoever concerning their schoolwork. The couple of bright kids in her class are taunted and harassed by classmates for "trying to act white" or act "better than everybody", and it affects their performance. My mom does what she can to make sure that her kids do well, but without parental support, it's an uphill battle.

I think non-URM applicants tend to think that they are in direct competition with URM's--they are not. At least not at the schools I know about. If you agree that minority communities are underserved, but that it's unfair to let URM's into med schools with lower stats than non-URM's, then maybe more non-URM's should be making commitments to practice in these underserved communities, where the need is greatest. 99% of the doctors I have seen are Asian, mainly from India, and got their medical education in their homeland, not in the US. Not one of these doctors are from the areas in which they serve, and I don't see whites breaking down the doors to acquire these positions. Also, FYI,for every 100 US physicians, only 3 are Black, and 2 of these are female.
 
People on both "sides" of this argument seem to have some very good points. I just wanted to add my 2 cents because my opinions on AA in med school admissions have changed a lot since I have come to med school.

For background, I'm of (non-URM) Hispanic origin and hope to serve Spanish-speaking populations.

As I was going through the admissions process back in CA, I found the whole URM thing very frustrating from several angles, most of which I'm sure you can guess, though I don't have time/energy to go into all of them now. Ultimately, I did get into several CA schools, but I couldn't help feeling that I had had to "compensate" academically for my non-URM status in order to be competetive in the applicant pool...and I wondered if I would have gotten into my first-choice CA school with my stats if I had been considered URM (I probably would have, but as someone said, a lot of the process has to do with luck, and maybe there was something else wrong with my application, I don't know).

When I came to Duke, I was startled to find that the vast, vast majority of our professors are white males. There are some African-American doctors here, but not nearly proportionate to the number of African-Americans in the population (I'm sorry I don't have time to look up the data to support this). Today, in fact, we are being taught by an African-American professor (male) for this first time all year. Likewise, very few of our professors have been female. This was not at all what I was used to in the med centers back home. I'm sure diversity is still lacking there in departments like surgery, for example, and maybe others. Again, I wish I had time to look up stats on that, because I'm basing this on what I saw when I volunteered there and comparing it to what I see here.

Members of my class have complained about the lack of diversity of the faculty. Our admissions office does a good job of putting together a class that's diverse in nearly every way, and it's painfully obvious that our faculty does NOT reflect the diversity of the student body.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I can see more clearly now why med schools, especially places like Duke that are not historically very diverse, are going out of their way to recruit diverse classes. I'm still not sure how I happy I am about admissions policies at schools on the west coast, where racial dynamics seem fairly different, but I feel better about it now that I have more of a "big picture."

I'm afraid I haven't offered the most eloquent observations (it's still early and I'm supposed to be listening to a lecture on basal ganglia :) ), but I hope you guys will get my drift.

take care everyone,
penelope
 
Hey Penelope! Far from non-eloquent. You make very good points and give insightful info. In any case I'm in a very similar situation to you. I'm non-URM (black)... I already hear someone saying huh? :) .

In any case I'm still ALL for AA. It is very necessary for several reasons few of which I mentioned in my last (and first ;) ) post. The arguement against AA is sort of a throw-back to the 1960s' resistance to desegregation of schools. History certainly repeats itself, so the anti-AA movement is fortunately (or unfortunately; depending on what side one is on) a lost cause.

I did have to work extremely hard to get a spot for the fall; but I'm happy I had to work so hard, especially since I wasn't kept out. I don't feel an ounce of regret. It's sort of a "If it doesn't kill you, it'll only make you stronger" arguement.

Besides, if I wasn't faced with such a steeply inclined hill, I doubt that I'd have been in a position to be declining top-ten interviews like it aint no thaing :D
 
First off, I think Affirmative action is wrong. Theres better ways of promoting diversity without reverse discrimation. I think the URM concept should be done away with too. Applicants should only be given special consideration becuase of lower socioeconmical resources and lack of educational resources. NO matter what race they are. Yes I am a while male but I have enough diverse life experiences and adversity to go around. DIversity is key in medicine and should be promoted at all times, but that should include diverse life experiences. It just so happens that URMs probably have a little bit more of those diverse life experiences. If thats the reason that they want URMs thats fine. But qualifying as a URM because of race is B.S. I know plently of so called URMs that have had a silver spoon there entire lives and have no diversity of life experiences. Beleive it or not, there are some white people that have had harder lives (ie. more adversity) than some "URMs". At my UCSD interview they aksed me a bunch a "disadvantaged" questions. I felt this was very inappropriate cause I would of applied as a disadvataged applicant then. I felt I was failing the interview when they assigned zero points each time I answered no. Not a good technique to impress potential students. Giving lower SES people special consideration fine, but allowing in sub-par students beacause of race alone diminishs the quality of the medicine. Just my thoughts.
 
URM does not mean not qualified.

People slip through the cracks whether they are URMs or not.

Yes, matriculating URMs have lower average MCAT scores, but they are still higher than overall national average (which is, I believe, 23 or 24).

Meanwhile I know a person who is not URM, who got a 22 on her MCAT and has been accepted to 2 schools.

Remember, folks, it takes all kinds. Sometimes numbers just don't matter as much.

And all who are anti-AA, remember, AA benefits non-URM women as well.

As I said before, the system is not perfect, but until we can come up with another, fair system that encompasses everything--money, health, family life, background--it's the best we have. Cutting it all out and weighting everybody as equal would only work if everybody had equal opportunity, which is not the case even just based on the fact that property taxes fund public schools.

mma
 
Sproggin's post made a whole lot of sense to me. Verify applicant's IRS tax forms to determine if they are disadvantaged. It makes perfect sense. Then give these qualifying applicants a bit more consideration based on true hardship and not race. I think that would be more than fair to everyone.

Really I am not concerned about getting into med school. I know I will based on the hard work I've done to get this far. Nor do I look at those accepted and say "Boo hoo they didn't accept me yet but they accepted that URM." I just don't think like that.
 
Verifying tax information will not fix this overly complicated situation.

Personally, my parent's tax information would make it seem like they're doing good. But who would know that they are so far in debt because of past hardships that it's a struggle to pay my tuition every quarter or their own bills. Basically what I'm trying to say is looking at information over one year will never tell the whole story. There are things that happen over a lifetime (ie poor secondary education opportunities) that cannot be simplified by looking at how much money one has at the moment. Also, there are social circumstances in our society (such as hardships that african americans, mexican americans, and native americans have been forced to endure because of past political/social standards) that may set one group apart from another (in general) that no one indicator such as income can verify.

Basically, I'm saying that you're naive if you think that being at a "disadvantage" in this society can be simplified by measuring income.
 
sproggin and amy beth, you're idea of URM is totally wrong. URM means under-represented minority. under-represented because there are not enough black, hispanic, american-indian, etc. doctors in the field. therefore, to get more minorities into the field, they make an effort to train the best minorities in the schools.

But qualifying as a URM because of race is B.S.••

URM is based on race, there's nothing else that it means. will you, as a white male, graudate from med school and serve in a predominately black neighborhood like harlem or indian reservation like new mexico? most would not, but a greater percentage of those races would go. THAT is the essence of the URM idea. you seem to be mixing up disadvantaged status/AA with URM which are two mutually exclusive ideas.
Click to expand...
 
All this talk about AA and URM reminds me of a similar situation in India. I've grown up here, but this is what I've heard second-hand from my parents and read here and there. A certain "class" of people in India, commonly referred to as the "Untouchables" are 'underrepresented' in higher institutions of learning for the obvious reasons-money and society. Though I'd like to think this group of people doesn't come across discrimination, they do. So, basically in some of the colleges back in India there are a certain number of seats reserved for people that have been reduced to such a lowly position in society. This has definitely improved their situations, but it must be mentioned that many get in based on their academic credentials, not b/c we need more of "them." In India this has provided opportunities for those who've never had anything presented to them on a silver platter. What I'm trying to say is that in India, these people GET IN based on their hard work. They don't have the money to afford private tutoring and the like (American equivalent of Kaplan/PR). According to the standards here, they would DEFINITELY be considered disadvantaged...they don't have the same resources as others. The quality of the schools they attend isn't "all that."

This is hard for me to accurately portray, and I'm afraid that I'm going to fudge the facts w/ my naivety, but I'm trying to make a point here, and not doing a very good job of it so far... :)

I'm not against the whole URM status, but I feel that sometimes it's "abused." I'm particularly referring to medical school/college admissions. I'm aware that many get in b/c they've done hard work and worked their butts off. But, what about those with the lower numbers though? Yes, I know they might not have had the best education, but the same can be said of the class of Indian people to which I was referring earlier. Yet, they study their butts off and get in b/c of their numbers. This is so friggin difficult for me to relay b/c I'm much better w/ my mouth than I am with paper. :) If someone doesn't have the same resources, they can improvise. Instead of taking Kaplan/PR, they can borrow/buy books from someone who has them.

I guess after comparing what goes on here to what goes on in India, I'm just disillusioned with the way the whole AA and URM works here. It's almost as if they're saying "we don't expect you to do as well as your peers, so we don't expect as high numbers from you." I definitely think there should be seats for URMs, but I don't feel that they should be held to a "lower" standard. Anyone has the potential to do well if they put their mind to it. Anyways, I don't know if you guys see my point or not. I've taken up enough space, so I'll just let this be until I find the perfect way to write what I want to say. :)

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone w/ my tirade. Please PM me if you'd like.
 
Originally posted by LilMissDrDoolittle:
•pity pity pity.. all these people asking for pity

All you need to do well in school and EARN your spot in medschool is a passion for learning and a pencil... not a MCAT class, not some fancy institution, and certainly not pity

That's what I did. I owned little in my life, worked my butt off since I was 12, and owned little more than a pencil. I was always top of my class. I am a URM and did not designate "disadvantaged."

Hell the twists and turns of life itself are a disadvantage. Everyone has their own issues. Show med schools you can hack it and survive under pressure...don't ask for pity.•••

Exactly! :)
Click to expand...
 
i do not have much to add to this discussion that hasn't already been mentioned, but i do want to make a few points:

1) throughout this thread, there seems to be a lot of confusion over 'disadvantaged' and 'URM'--they are not necessarily the same thing and admission of applicants falling into either category is fulfilling different objectives. 'URM', as we all know but seem to forget, stands for 'underrepresented minority', meaning that there is a dramatic underrepresentation of these people (african american, mexican american, mainland puerto rican, and native americans) in the medical field versus the general population. as a result, there is an active push to recruit, train, and eventually turn out physicians who claim such heritage, so that the medical field more accurately represents the population of this country. this is the bottom line, and i feel that many in this thread have lost sight of this. if this means that med schools need to recruit students of lower-than-average stats in order to fill a need for diversity in the numbers desired (which is sorely needed, as penelope's post clearly demonstrates), then so be it--is there a better solution? if, all of a sudden, people claiming URM heritage have *higher* than average stats, it will not change the fact that there are currently significantly fewer physicians of these ethnicity groups and it will thus not diminish the current need for active recruitment in the name of diversity.

2) calling this 'racial discrimination' demonstrates a lack of understanding of the way applicants are actually recruited--how can it be discrimination based on *race* when specific ethnicities within a racial classification are recruited yet others are not? a perfect example of this is latinos (yes, i know that latino is not a race per se): only mexican americans and mainland puerto ricans are considered URMS, not latinos of any other latin background (cubans, south americans, etc, etc). the reason for this is that chicanos and puerto ricans make up the largest proportion of the hispanic population in this country, yet their numbers in medicine do not even come close to comparing to the general population. cubans and south americans, on the other hand, are represented in the medical field more proportionally. in addition, asians are not wholly excluded from URM status--while chinese, korean, indian, etc, applicants number greatly, some schools actively recruit pacific islanders. again, it's an ethnicity issue, not a racial issue, and it's based on proportions in medicine vs the general population.

3) 'disadvantaged' status is an *entirely* different issue. yes, there are URMs who are disadvantaged, but there are plenty of nonURMs who are disadvantaged and plenty of URMs who are not. its inclusion in the AMCAS application allows those who grew up or currently live in situations that may have or actually did hinder one's ability to succeed to state their case, and it appears that the reason why the 'disadvantaged' question is completely separate from the 'race' question demonstrates that people are cognizant of the fact that URM does not automatically equal disadvantaged nor the other way around.

food for thought.
 
Pity pity pity, that's all applicants complaining about other applicants taking their spots are about. Consider: for any given strong non-URM applicant that is rejected, there was someone accepted who had lower MCAT scores or a much lower GPA. And they were also non-URM. So unless some complainers can produce evidence that they were more qualified than at least one accepted URM but LESS QUALIFIED THAN EVERY OTHER NON-URM ACCEPTED, I find it hard to believe that AA kept you out of that school. Think about it...
 
I didn't read the whole 90 messages but I got an idea from the 1st couple of em..I really didn't knew what urm suppose to mean.. but however thanx to everyone. i'm from india, haven't been here for that long, only one from my family to ever surpass 10the grade on top of that I never recieved any help except some good advice from many good ppl i met here. however, i'm not urm because i do not represent any minority crap. I believe in equal opportunity and believe that if minority guys get any extra slack or push in med school it's not fair....and they don't deserve it , however. hard work is a key to success.
just wanted to pitch in..
 
How come Indians and others from Jamaica, Haiti and Africa are not considered URMS? I know of rich nigerians and jamaicans who are black, for example, getting into ivy medical schools and colleges with ok grades. Also, why is a rich minority kid from westchester who is black (or even half and a fourth black) in need of extra help? It seems to me that the view of races in this country is a bit too immature- I get the idea that hispanic, black, white and asian cover too little ground. I would welcome the addition to other variables into the equation such as income and life experiences. If people from countries that suffered from colonialism should be given an extra push, all non-whites should be asking for help!
 
Originally posted by loverboy:
•i'm not urm because i do not represent any minority crap. •••

Crap means faeces as in poop. Minority poop? I'll refrain from calling you racist cause that will be an atrocious understatement.

Originally posted by loverboy:
•
..I really didn't knew what urm suppose to mean.. •••

My guess is that you intended to write: "I really didn't KNOW what URM means". But then with you, there's really no telling.

Good luck trying to get into med school. I hope you get in. I'm sure you'll make a very sensitive physician.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by tra202:
•How come Indians and others from Jamaica, Haiti and Africa are not considered URMS? I know of rich nigerians and jamaicans who are black, for example, getting into ivy medical schools and colleges with ok grades. Also, why is a rich minority kid from westchester who is black (or even half and a fourth black) in need of extra help? •••

Look I am nigerian and my dad is a surgeon. I went to both elementary and highschool in Nigeria. I had a ****load of books and educational toys from the day I was born. My parents read me bed-time stories, and took me to Australia one summer to see a Wallaby. Any surprise that I have a 3.8+ gpa and a 33+ MCAT? No. What else would I have?

Conditions for blacks in the U.S (and Africa especially), are dire. You have NO idea. You put a kid in a ghetto where the value of education is zero and you surround him with drugs, violence, and extreme poverty, and then you expect him to tie or exceed your MCAT score in 20 yrs. You've got to be kidding. I keep saying that medicine is about compassion and helping the sick and the suffering. We've all heard this but it just doesn't seem to be able to sink in to most. Some people even have the guts to compare medicine to NBA basketball in their tirade against AA. I don't mean to sound self-righteous, but it seems several pre-meds have no clue what medicine should be about, and why they want such a career in the first place. This is really saddening and eye-opening.
Click to expand...
 
I really dont think anyone here has said someone has taken their spot, I think those against it are merely saying the process needs to be fair.

To All Posters,
I think the bottom line is this is a passionate subject that touches close to home for a lot of people. Debate about topics is a good thing as long as it doesn't get ugly and personal. In spite of a few rude comments I think we all expressed ourselves in an educated manner becoming of future doctors.

There will be topics in our lives where we feel strongly about a subject and will need to be able to express ourselves in an appropriate manner. There may be no right or wrong answer (as with this topic) to a problem, but by being open and willing to hear other's thoughts on a subject and then able to work together, well, that is what solves issues.

So to all the future doctors that have passionately defended their opinion on this thread I say good luck and best wishes. Let's us depart for good from this post.


:) :)
 
Conditions for blacks in the U.S (and Africa especially), are dire. You have NO idea. You put a kid in a ghetto where the value of education is zero and you surround him with drugs, violence, and extreme poverty, and then you expect him to tie or exceed your MCAT score in 20 yrs ••
Conditions of people in lots of third world contries and this country are bad. I NEVER said that people with such conditions should not be given the chance to get a medical education. Im just saying that these conditions are not a function of race in lots of cases. As for your stats, they are great. But a Chinese or an indian with the same stats would never get into a med school in this country, even with 40+MCATS and a 4.0.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by tra202:
•
As for your stats, they are great. But a Chinese or an indian with the same stats would never get into a med school in this country, even with 40+MCATS and a 4.0.•••


Amazing! Truely amazing. So you really know that little about med school admissions. You have a fantastic notion of medical school and stats.

WashU is the most selective school in the continental united states. Their average accepted MCAT is a 36. Of the matriculants, the average MCAT settles at a 33. The average accepted MCAT at Harvard is a 34; of the matriculants, the average MCAT settles at 32. The average accepted MCAT at Johns Hopkins is a 32 which on matric day becomes 31. I can go on and on just to enlighten you, but I think I've made my point.

A guy with a 40+ MCAT and a 4.0 gpa is probably one of 6 or 7 such people of the 35,000 appicants. This dude would have been worth a tonne of gold save for the fact that contrary to popular pre-med belief, numbers are NOT everything.

This guy can EASILY get rejected at any top-ten school without an interview; and his spot will not necessarily have been "stolen" by one of the 5 URMs in a class of 130 students. Extracurricular activities, leadership, and above all, evidence of COMPASSION are major factors in med school admissions.

Some people with good intentions say Harvard can fill their class with 4.0, 40+ MCATers if they wanted to. I guarantee you that there are not enough 4.0gpa 40+ MCATers in the world to fill a 5ft by 5ft restroom at HMS.
Click to expand...
 
just to stir things up a bit more..( sorry Amy beth..this is getting interesting ;) )..to the proponents of AA: So..if I understand it correctly..minority students should get special consideration because they were at a disadvantage growing up. This special consideration, will help to level the playing field and increase enrollment. Ok..now I am wondering..how long do you think these same individuals should get special consideration? I mean...after a student is accepted to say..med school, despite lower mcat/gpa scores, should he or she be also given breaks in med school? The argument I am trying to make is that if you say that minorities may not be as prepared for standardized tests because their earlier academic background is not as strong, then what do you suppose their fate will be when they begin their professional education? If a student gets a low mcat score in April and then starts med school next fall..do you think that time period will be enough to prepare him/her for classes that are tougher then anything that student has faced thus far? How ould that student cope with the rigors of medical school, when he/she had a tough time in undergrad?
 
Dear Shizzy,
Im not talking about an american citizen or permanent resident. Im talking about international students and whom out of them have a shot of getting into medical school in the USA. I dont know what your deal is, but you seem to be quite sure that Im trying to attack you in some way and that no one but you has any idea what medicine is truly about. So, relax and try to think about what Im saying instead of planning an attack from a a 'higher ground of knowledge about things'.
 
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