I don't mean to anger people but.....

Discover Your Odds of Getting into Medical School
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Maple:

Not many breaks needed after the MCAT. Attrition rates from med schools are approximately 0% and USMLE pass-rates are approximately 100%

Med school is easy as cake. You heard that right: cake. I must admit that the volume of stuff to learn is ridiculous, but the concepts are no more difficult than anything several saw in highschool.

That said, the true test in med school will be when at 3:00am you're warn-out on the wards and some drunk guy curses you out and throws up on your freshly laundered white coat.

Compassion, resilience, and passion are far more important than being well versed in greek mythology and ancient Aztec architecture (sound familiar? MCAT verbal baby ;) )
Members don't see this ad.
 
Originally posted by tra202:
•Dear Shizzy,
Im not talking about an american citizen or permanent resident. Im talking about international students and whom out of them have a shot of getting into medical school in the USA. I dont know what your deal is, but you seem to be quite sure that Im trying to attack you in some way and that no one but you has any idea what medicine is truly about. So, relax and try to think about what Im saying instead of planning an attack from a a 'higher ground of knowledge about things'.•••

About 100 international students get accepted to med school every year. Roughly 80 of them are canadian (white, non-U.S citizens, non-permanent residents). Their stats mirror the accepted stats of the schools to which they are accepted. The only issue with us (internationals) is MONEY. Whether or not you can deposit $250,000 in an escrow account.

Like I said before, there are not enough 4.0gpa 40+ MCATers in the world to fill a 4ft by 3.5ft sanitation closet at HMS. I'm not saying they're not out there (I've actually worked in a place where I met more than one of these bright ones). Don't be fooled though, they're certainly rare. If you're really interested, go ahead and research the topic. Go to the MCAT website, grab a reliable med school admissions guide, and if symptoms persist for 3 days, consult your local statistician.

I'm sorry if I appear condescending, I didn't mean to insult you or anything. I was just trying to point out some facts.
Click to expand...
 
I really don't want to get into a full discussion on this issue but just wanted to point out to 2shizzy that he is not correct about help in medical school. There are many people that require a lot of extra help including an extra 1-2 years to finish medical school. In my class there are not many minorities. My information is purely anecdotal, but from what I have seen, a much higher proportion of URM students are on the 5,6, or even 7 year program. Out of the 7 african americans in our class, 3 could not do it in 4 years. Out of 4 hispanics in our class, 2 didn't make it. Out of the rest of the class, 6-7 needed the extra years and 2 dropped out.

I make no judgements on these statistics! I just wanted to present them so that people had some more info.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Dr. shizzy, I respect you of pointing out the word "crap" that I have deliberately chosen and was no mistake. However, I will respect you even more that if you can explain the word "****" that you have chosen to further explain "heavy load of homework"..I point is do you know what "Hipocrit" means, I may have spelled it wrong but smart man like you should have no problem understanding what i meant.
 
For shizzy, I meant I respect you for.. and next mistake I made was "My point is " instead of "I point is " sorry I was rushing a little.
 
loverboy, i say this with compassion for you...your posts are crap themselves. i don't care if you're in a rush, they should not have that many mistakes themselves. how much of a hurry could you be in, and why?

by the way i took no offense in your "minority crap" comment because i know you meant "minority business." shizzy's retort was wayy too loud, and in my opinion not deserved. but hey, even spoiled little rich kids have bad days.... :D
shizzy: it just felt funny writing that, i don't know enough about you to mean it.
 
Haven't read almost any of the posts on here, but I just wanted to quickly add that there are many studies out that show that income level affects children's schooling more than race does. In fact, Cambridge schools recently decided to alter their student school assignment policies: now elementary school students are assigned to the various schools based on their parents' income levels, not their race. I'd paste an article about it, but I can't seem to find one anymore.

In any case, I see pluses and minuses to both sides of the debate, but I need to sleep. The text web browser I'm programming is not working... Stupid seg faults! :mad:
 
What do you know, I did find some links after all.

<a href="http://www.edweek.org/ew/newstory.cfm?slug=16cambridge.h21" target="_blank">http://www.edweek.org/ew/newstory.cfm?slug=16cambridge.h21</a>

<a href="http://www.townonline.com/metro/cambridge/" target="_blank">http://www.townonline.com/metro/cambridge/</a>

<a href="http://www.equaleducation.org/Integration/Kahlenberg-Economic_Factors_Integration.asp" target="_blank">http://www.equaleducation.org/Integration/Kahlenberg-Economic_Factors_Integration.asp</a>

Enjoy.
 
Originally posted by maple:
•So..if I understand it correctly..minority students should get special consideration because they were at a disadvantage growing up. •••

no, when speaking of URM recruitment, this is incorrect. please read my earlier post (bottom of the 'sixth' screen of this thread), which is lengthy but designed to clear up misconceptions like this about the URM issue (i did a lot of work on this in college). 'URM' and 'disadvantaged' are NOT the same thing, and one does not necessarily imply the other. and not all minorities (meaning, nonwhite people) are recruited--ONLY african americans, native americans, mexican americans, and mainland puerto ricans are considered URMs and are thus heavily recruited. and this recruitment is designed to address the fact that there are way fewer physicians of these backgrounds than in the general population--the numbers are not proportional. other minority ethnicities (most asian ethnicities, the other hispanic ethnicities, etc) are *not* considered URMs because they are not 'underrepresented' in the general population. therefore, URM does not universally mean non-white and disadvantaged. what's more, questions to identify those who claim URM status or disadvantaged status are entirely separate on the AMCAS app, indicating that those who designed the app are socially aware-enough to realize that you can be disadvantaged but NOT a URM or vice versa. it seems to me that a separate 'disadvantaged' question is there specifically to address the complaints voiced by several in this thread, that you don't have to be an underrepresented minority to get screwed in life.
Click to expand...
 
Thank you Sandflea, I think your post really cleared up what URM verse disadvantaged means in the med school application process.
 
Amy Beth, you still say the process is unfair. Again: Of 100 physicians in the US only 3 are black! Of the first year classes, URM's--and thanks, Sandflea, for the clarification that URM has NOTHING to do w/ disadvantaged status--make up on average, less than 10% of the class!!! What's unfair, my dear, is the system that allows for only 3% black doctors in the US. I hate to have to keep throwing history at you, but please, at least PRETEND that you are aware of why things are the way they are! This process is to level the field, to increase representation of groups that have been systematically SHUT OUT for generations in the course of US history due to racism and race discrimination. Do you know any minority doctors? If so, then take this topic up with them. Perhaps then, you'll get the insight you need, because it doesn't seem like premeds and med students are helping you see the big picture here.
 
"I just wanted to quickly add that there are many studies out that show that income level affects children's schooling more than race does. In fact, Cambridge schools recently decided to alter their student school assignment policies: now elementary school students are assigned to the various schools based on their parents' income levels, not their race."

On the average minorities are poorer than non minorities...so doesn't economically based school appointment basically have the same effect as race based appointment (in most cases)? In both cases it results in segregation along racial lines.
 
"Conditions of people in lots of third world contries and this country are bad. I NEVER said that people with such conditions should not be given the chance to get a medical education. Im just saying that these conditions are not a function of race in lots of cases."

First of all we are NOT talking about third world countries so your post is irrelevant. Second of all these conditions are a function of race because the majority of the people living in the projects and ghettos are people of color.

How do I know? Well..I grew up in a barrio and I did the majority of my volunteer work in South Central Los Angeles. FYI I am latino, but I am not a URM.

Ok so first hand testimonials aren't all that reliable..try this argument. Minorities are on the average poorer than non minorities (common knowledge). People living in the projects are poorer than the general populace. Therefore...the majority or the people in the ghetto are people of color.

You cannot seperate race and socioeconomic class because the two things are not independent. On the average, certain races have lower socioeconomic class. This leads to them living in poorer areas with poorer schooling and less opportunity. How many kids from the ghetto do you know at Harvard? Yale? Duke?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
On the average minorities are poorer than non minorities...so doesn't economically based school appointment basically have the same effect as race based appointment (in most cases)? In both cases it results in segregation along racial lines.[/QB][/QUOTE]


No. The poorest whites and Asians score higher than the richest African-Americans and Hispanics. This is why so many URMs don't want class-based AA.
 
Originally posted by toobsllik:
•
No. The poorest whites and Asians score higher than the richest African-Americans and Hispanics. This is why so many URMs don't want class-based AA.•••

Hey toobsllik you are wrong on that one. I'm going to have to call foul on you for that one. You see when you start making these false and extreme claims you paint yourself as racist. I guarantee you that MCAT scores out of Appalachia and rural Alabama (some of the poorest white communities) don't average out to a 28 or 29 or 30. Alot of those folks have difficulty reading and adding numbers even after highschool. My guess is that at least 90% don't go to college and the 10% that do, go to community colleges. This is NO fault of their's but a consequence of their living conditions and resources.

You seem so upset and you seem to be trying to suggest that african americans and hispanics are inherently not as smart as whites and asians. Little wonder that minority patients are skeptical of their non-minority physicians. Coupled with Loverboy's reference to minorities and minority issues as "minority crap", it is a scary thought that you guys might actually become physicians and be assigned hispanic and african american patients.
Click to expand...
 
2shizzy, you wrote (and I commend you for saying that you were "guessing") that people from poor communities in Alabama, et al. have enough problems reading and writing (can't remember exactly how you put it), so therefore their MCATs will be lower than 28-29. My question is this: how many of those people from those communities who have trouble reading and writing actually *take* the MCAT? I'm sure there are people from all over the country that have trouble reading, but my guess is that the vast majority of those people don't take the MCAT. Yes, I bet that if _everyone_ in those communities had to take the MCAT, then it'd be much lower than 28. However, that isn't the case....the MCAT is taken by a VERY select group of people (masochists! ;) )
Anyways, I think the statement on which you were commenting is regarding to scores of those people who actually took the test. Of course I have no idea if that statement is true or not...
 
shimmer118:

I was only responding to toobsillk's false claim. So you're essentially corroborating my point. I think what you've just said is that the poorest whites don't even get to the level of attempting the MCAT.

This is all absurd and based on speculation; but when one is argueing against someone with toobsllik's mentality, the arguement is bound to degenerate into non-sense rather quickly.
 
Originally posted by UCLA2000:
•On the average minorities are poorer than non minorities...so doesn't economically based school appointment basically have the same effect as race based appointment (in most cases)? In both cases it results in segregation along racial lines.•••

Well, it may be true that more minorities than "majorities" are poor, but that doesn't discredit the finding that performance correlates better with economic status than race. Besides, race is not a scientific term, and has a lot of cultural stereotypes and biases thrown into it. Finally, I didn't mean to say that "race," however one wants to define it, is no longer a factor in Cambridge desgregation. Rather, I meant that it is not the biggest factor anymore...

Anyway, back to Weber.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by 2shizzy:
[QB]

"Hey toobsllik you are wrong on that one. I'm going to have to call foul on you for that one. You see when you start making these false and extreme claims you paint yourself as racist."

I already provided the link for this statement. I was not referring specifically to the MCAT. I don't know if these data exist for the test. (I have never come across them). I was referring to the SAT. On this test, white students from families making less than 10k per year score higher than black students from families making 70k+ per year.
I frankly don't give a damn what you "think." Your posts are based entirely on conjecture; you provide no statistics in support of your arguments. Furthermore, your arguments are anachronistic and have been so for some time. It is commonly accepted in psychological discourse that test score disparities between whites/Asians and URMs are not a function of socioeconomic status.
As I said before, I do not believe that test score differences can be attributed to inherent genetic differences. This is a problem that is endemic to African-Americans; black immigrants do not have the same academic problems.

The following post appeared on TPR in May 2001:

Okay, lets admit it. The reason the black community doesn't turn out more doctors is not because of racism or opression. Its because the black culture of America is dysfunctional. I am a first generation Liberian-American, and I think its sick the way American blacks whine like little spoiled brats. When my family left Africa, my father was in a concentration camp in Liberia, and I had watched my aunt and uncle executed when I was only five years old. When my grandparents came to America, we had no money and no place to live. We were homeless for two years. Today, because I studied hard I will be a doctor. Black people in America today do not value education, and do not want to study hard in school.
They would rather spent time playing in sports. They are typically lazy, with some exceptions, and their role models and their music glorifies the drugs and violence which causes so many of them to end up in jail. They want success the easy way, and they try to get handouts from the whites by manipulating their guilt over slavery. Its such a joke for me to listen to American blacks talk about how slavery has ruined
their lives, when it ended so long ago. They don't
realize that in my country, slavery still exists.
Click to expand...
 
AmyBeth,
I hope you realize there are thousands of people applying, all with their own problems etc...but so what? Everyone has to deal w/the cards they've been dealt, so suck it up. The only people that really truly worry about this kinda stuff are the ones who know they aren't truly qualified, so they start playing the numbers game...everyone has obstacles to overcome to get into school...

I think the best piece of advice for people who are worried about AA: Suck it up, work your ass off and hopefully it'll pay off. :D
 
Originally posted by simseema17:
•AmyBeth,
I hope you realize there are thousands of people applying, all with their own problems etc...but so what? Everyone has to deal w/the cards they've been dealt, so suck it up. The only people that really truly worry about this kinda stuff are the ones who know they aren't truly qualified, so they start playing the numbers game...everyone has obstacles to overcome to get into school...

I think the best piece of advice for people who are worried about AA: Suck it up, work your ass off and hopefully it'll pay off. :D •••

I'm sorry, but this is possibly the worst advice anyone has ever given. So just because there are problems in life, we should not strive to overcome them? I think I'll tell my future patients that and give you credit:

"But simseema17 said you should just suck up the fact that you have a malignant tumor in your brain. So suck it up, wuss!"

If problems exist, work to fix them. That's MY best advice (for now).
Click to expand...
 
Black people in America today do not value education, and do not want to study hard in school...

You are going to make one damn sensitive compassionate doctor. I have taken the liberty of copying your message and your member # for future reference. Good luck in med school, you poor, sad, little speck.
 
Originally posted by nochaser:
•Black people in America today do not value education, and do not want to study hard in school...

You are going to make one damn sensitive compassionate doctor. I have taken the liberty of copying your message and your member # for future reference. Good luck in med school, you poor,
sad, little speck.•••


I looked for this post in context but I could not find it...

While it is a blanket racist generalization this is the attitude that many immigrants to America have. Many come in and overcome their obstacles in a generation or two and cannot see why American Blacks cannot. This is the pull yourself up by your own bootstraps I believe popularized by either Herbert Spencer or Horatio Alger (or both).

But there is a a definite influence of culture in America and this does have a HUGE negative affect on Black Americans.
Click to expand...
 
Scooby, the poster copied and pasted some vile commentary from the TPR boards, I assume to back up his own feelings about the issue, perhaps as a defense mechanism? Here's the post:

11426
posted January 11, 2002 04:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by 2shizzy:
[QB]
"Hey toobsllik you are wrong on that one. I'm going to have to call foul on you for that one. You see when you start making these false and extreme claims you paint yourself as racist."

I already provided the link for this statement. I was not referring specifically to the MCAT. I don't know if these data exist for the test. (I have never come across them). I was referring to the SAT. On this test, white students from families making less than 10k per year score higher than black students from families making 70k+ per year.
I frankly don't give a damn what you "think." Your posts are based entirely on conjecture; you provide no statistics in support of your arguments. Furthermore, your arguments are anachronistic and have been so for some time. It is commonly accepted in psychological discourse that test score disparities between whites/Asians and URMs are not a function of socioeconomic status.
As I said before, I do not believe that test score differences can be attributed to inherent genetic differences. This is a problem that is endemic to African-Americans; black immigrants do not have the same academic problems.

The following post appeared on TPR in May 2001:

&lt;&lt;Okay, lets admit it. The reason the black community doesn't turn out more doctors is not because of racism or opression. Its because the black culture of America is dysfunctional. I am a first generation Liberian-American, and I think its sick the way American blacks whine like little spoiled brats. When my family left Africa, my father was in a concentration camp in Liberia, and I had watched my aunt and uncle executed when I was only five years old. When my grandparents came to America, we had no money and no place to live. We were homeless for two years. Today, because I studied hard I will be a doctor. Black people in America today do not value education, and do not want to study hard in school.
They would rather spent time playing in sports. They are typically lazy, with some exceptions, and their role models and their music glorifies the drugs and violence which causes so many of them to end up in jail. They want success the easy way, and they try to get handouts from the whites by manipulating their guilt over slavery. Its such a joke for me to listen to American blacks talk about how slavery has ruined
their lives, when it ended so long ago. They don't
realize that in my country, slavery still exists.&gt;&gt;
Click to expand...
 
Well said,Incendiary!

Noshaser and Simseema17 It appears I am not the one with a problem but rather you two, due to you feeling you must personsonally attack me. I am NOT concerned about getting in to a medical school. I know I am a great candiate with quite good stats. I have already been told of one acceptance and am awaiting a letter from another school this month.

What a little child you must be to go around telling people "to suck it". How immature is that?

If you read closely my first post I started this thread due to reading all the posts that would say "I have a 23 MCAT BUT I am a URM." Like that excused such a low MCAT score. I wasn't the one saying it was fine to have low stats if you were an URM. If you have such a low MCAT then you better have something else in your application that makes up for a low score. I don't care if you are an URM, if you can't get over a 20 on the MCAT then you should question as to whether you can handle medical school. Is there a seperate grading system in med school for URM's that score too low for the Pass grade? Should there be? How long should people be carried through life. Give me a break!

As to the poster who questioning about if I even know any minority doctors, well that is an insult in itself. I may be a lilly-white american in your eyes, but I sure as heck do not live in a yuppy, white bubble. I work at a free clinic that serves the vast poor, underinsured people living in this city of 900,000 people. The majority of the people we treat are minorities. I have never nor will I ever shrink faway rom treating them, nor do I look down my white nose at them. And I have taked to the black doctors that rotate through the clinic, and in contrast to your assumption, they do not like the URM program. Two of them did not designate it on their application.

If you want to go through life thinking you need special programs to "keep you on a level" playing field, well that is sad.

As you can tell from this post, I have had enough of the whinning and personal attacks on my character. I am not the one with low stats, nor am I afraid of losing my place in any med school I applied to.

If you don't want people on this list to think URM status means you get into med school with only marginal stats, then maybe you all shouldn't post that you have a 20 on the MCAT but you are URM. Because that just shows you are the one that is using your status to make excuses for your low scores.
 
Amy,

I did not mean to come off as personally attacking you, and I think you misjudged my tone when I asked if you knew any minority docs--wait a sec, let me check:

&lt;&lt;Do you know any minority doctors? If so, then take this topic up with them. Perhaps then, you'll get the insight you need, because it doesn't seem like premeds and med students are helping you see the big picture here.&gt;&gt;

Well, I guess I can see how you could. Anyway, I did not try to attack you with my posts. I have followed your posts here for a while now, and you are the LAST person I would try to offend, so I apologize if I did that. As far as your working with/for minority docs and an underserved community, why didn't you post this before, esp. when it was already brought up before by another poster (I think it was Daisy)? Alas, I made an incorrect assumption, but I find it rather odd that you ask what you ask given your somewhat "insider" perspective on minority communities? Seems you should understand, versus those other "lilly whites" that are far removed. Oh well, let's agree to disagree, shall we? :p
 
Amy Beth you said that you had a problem with posts that say "I have a 23 MCAT BUT I am a URM."
You then later followed it up by saying "I don't care if you are an URM, if you can't get over a 20 on the MCAT then you should question as to whether you can handle medical school."
-----

By your own standards a 23 is higher than a 20 (which appears by your statement to be your cutoff point as to whether or not someone can handle med school). So what's the problem?
 
i have to say that generally I believe that AA is a good thing because it generates professionals that are more likely than others to go back and help in the areas from which they came. that's one of the big ideas behind the program.

On a related note, i find myself agreeing with some of Amy Beth's remarks. people shouldn't depend on crutches. they shouldn't take them for granted. the problem is that when the standards for a given group is lower than it is for others, they won't strive that hard to score much higher than the least they need. nonURM's know that a 30 is good enough for medschool, so we shoot for a 30. we don't bust our asses to try to land a 40 cuz we know a 30's good enough. URM's know that they need less (say, a 24) to get into a school, so they won't bust their asses to try to land a 30. we're both shooting for the least amount of work we need to do to get in where we want.

the fact is that getting a 30 is still pretty hard, and nonURMs have to bust ass to get one. URM's don't feel that pressure. they're ok with a lower score, so they don't work as hard (unless they work just as hard to get that 24, which i refuse to believe because i am not a biggot) to get their score. they depend on their crutches.

i should say that i'm making a generalization that seems logical, i don't know how true it is in application, but logically, it makes sense. after all, why should they crack ass to score really really well, when an ok score will suffice. hey, this is the same way we work, only we need a 30.
anyway, until these crutches are removed, this will continue, and i'm not convinced that people who depend on that lower standard will try as hard as others to excell LATER on in their careers. i think they'll keep shooting for the least amount of work possible, which is bad because it's substandard (that is, if you consider nonURM success standard). still, another problem is that URM's are (logically...i don't know if this is true in practice) the ones that will most likely practice in certain geographical locations. so we need them in medschool, and we can't fill the demand if we only choose URM's with 3.6 gpas and 30 mcats. cuz apparently there aren't enough, right? i could be wrong, and I want to learn. so if i am, please teach me. :D
 
Although "I sometime say toomuch toosoon, this time I'm saying toolittle but please don't spoil your afternoon!" I'm trying to makeup a rhyme here. Two months ago I've first logged in here and found some amazing ppl. Later I found out most of em are not just amazing but good helpful ppl, addition to that some laughed at my writing and usual miss spell or gramatical however my point here that since last two days I've noticed two new breeds, URM AND NONURM...I personally don't believe in URM. Like I posted early..I thought URM means U R *****!..Believe me..why can't we all forget about this and get back to helping other's in need..I do not like seeing 150 messages on Improductive issue vs others. However, I do want to thankyou, many of you who did took out sometime to help advise many like me.
stay alive!
Harman
 
Hi,
I am very knew to this site, please forgive any trespassing.

I have read almost all the posts about the URM topic and have two comments.

In response to LOVERBOY: I say please learn and grow. Be sensitive and compassionate. Given that you are Indian, it it is tough to be unselfish, but try to get out from the self-absorbed state of yours.
In response to Amy Beth: You are just amazing. You seem to be burning in anger with the whole AA thing. Let me ask you (and Loverboy) a question:
If you have two children, one perfectly healthy, the other some ailment, which one do you tend more? You put a lot of effort for the sick child. Would that be unfair? I know this is a terrible analogy, but this is what happened to most URM in this country. They are not sick, but they were treated inhumanely for the past 2-3 centuries.
What is wrong with coming to sense and trying to make-up for the past injustices???
It is not about a reverse discrimination, it is about fair representaion. We are still far from that goal.
Whenever I am sick and in hospital, or take some people to hospital, I am angered by the fact that I see only Whites, Indians, and other Asians. Never got a URM doc. Why do you think that is???

I am black, but not URM, because I am from ETHIOPIA.

All I am saying is that we need policies (like AA)that will help the future needs of the population.

AShizzy: You are my type of person, Bless you.

Best wishes to all
 
If a set of standards applies to one group of people, then the same set of standards should apply to everyone regardless of race, sex, age, or creed.
 
Originally posted by loverboy:
•..I thought URM means U R *****!..
•••

Hey Loverboy! I'm no longer mad at you. You crack me up dude. Look! did you say you were trying to make a rhyme? I don't mean to hurt your feelings but that stuff didn't rhyme one bit :D . I just concluded that you are disabled in some capacity. Either that, or you've spent just too little time in the U.S and are hence still dripping with unPCness. No sarcasm here; seriously, If you need any help just give me a shout.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by gebe:
• Given that you are Indian, it it is tough to be unselfish, but try to get out from the self-absorbed state of yours.
•••

Um, would you care to elaborate on this? I'm curious as to how you came up with this "assumption?"
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by gebe:
•

AShizzy: You are my type of person, Bless you.

Best wishes to all•••

Cool! Look I was in Ethiopia for 1 day waay back in 1995 and I got to see around Adis. Hey the ladies there are too pretty; it's just ridiculous. Must be nice.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Medical123:
•If a set of standards applies to one group of people, then the same set of standards should apply to everyone regardless of race, sex, age, or creed.•••

I couldn't agree more. So as not to be redundant, I'll reference my earlier post of the anecdotal ghetto kid being destined from the day of his birth to score low on the MCAT. The suburban kid on the other hand has all his stars in alignment from day 1 to acheive a high score on SAT, MCAT, or whatever. Against such a backdrop, application of "uniform" standards is ironically un-uniform. Implicit in my point of course is the fact that most ghetto kids are minorities.

Given the right conditions, minority students do as well as others. This society however is so obviously racially segregated in terms of money, level of education, and access. It's sort of like breaking someone's legs and asking that the person race you to the finish line. It really matters whether one's parents have advanced degrees or not. Whether they have enough money or not. Whether one's grandparents graduated college or not. This society is unfair by definition. It's waaaay too early to begin talking about fairness.
Click to expand...
 
As far as I am concerned a lot more people have been hanged and lynched in the US based on race than on sex, gender or creed. Is AA reverse discrimantion? Not really if the goal is equal representation...
I just want to go to the very beginning, to answer Amy Beth.
Amy Beth while you did your best to come out as being a disinterested inquirer I dare say, purely by analyzing what you wrote that the motive behind this thread is deeper than you let on.
You mean to say at your age and with your education you have no idea about why some people would test lower. That just has to be a lie. And is everything else fair in the US? Have you never seen racial profiling, police brutality, the socio-economic status of many minorities?? Infact, do you have any minority friends? Have you ever tried to find out what the average minority has to deal with? This is not to say that only minorities have hardships. However, for the past 4 years in college all my professors have been non-URM. Yes, non-URMs can also go through hardship but a nation such as America that boasts of being so diverse and multi-cultural has to be ashamed of such a trend. At most of my interviews, I have seen so many white doctors but hardly any black doctors. O but I have seen tons of black janitors and security guards. These are the real issues AA is trying to address. Why then should you have a problem with people with low stats. You know what? I also have a problem with your ACT score of 19. Research has shown that people with low ACT scores usually don?t do well in medical school. I am surprised you didn?t feel insulted to be granted an interview seeing that your score is so low. Maybe you got this chance simply because you are female?..Exactly it is all very ridiculous AND that is exactly what I thought when I read your post.
What bothers me more is that you state that we all work very very hard?. Is that pre-supposing that URMS don?t work as hard? How could you even say that? I am a TA for a chem class and last semester I had a URM, he worked so hard. His grade did not reflect how hard he worked but I KNOW that he did.
My advice for you is to get over this anger and resentment b4 you start med school because some of your class mates would not appreciate this attitude neither would some of your future patients.
Meanwhile, 2shizzy, you have won my eternal respect it would be an honor for me to meet you someday. Stay strong
 
First of all quake. I took my ACT 18 years ago as a 10th grader. I didn't take it seriously than seeing as I was on a different path in life 18 YEARS AGO. Med schools do not look at ACT scores to determine my admittance into med school. How naive to say that to me. I have a good MCAT and THAT is what they have looked at. So no, I am not assuming they will ignore my low ACT BECAUSE IT IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS MY MCAT. I wrote it in a different thread to help someone out that was concerned about their ACT. Maybe I didn't make my point in the other thread that it is not as important as the MCAT. It has never come up in any of my interviews and only one school asked for a SAT score which I didn't have so I put down the ACT score.

Second, I say I work hard because that is fact, I do work hard. I don't know what anyone else does cause I am not them, nor have I ever incinuated that someone in this process doesn't work as hard as me. Those who follow my posts know that, so I will ignore your attack on that point.

I will also ignore bebe's attack on me saying "I am burning with rage". That is absolutely without merit, but since it is her first post I will overlook that as well.

Third, as I have already stated I do have friends that could be classified as URM, so I do talk to them. And as I wrote before they do not use the status of URM because THEY DON'T APPROVE OF IT!!

4th, if you want to go through life blamming society for your "hardships" well, then I say that is a pretty sad way to live. I do read the news and listen to TV and quite frankly I am tired of hearing that someone has used hardship as an excuse for anything they do in life. What if Oprah or Dr. Ben Carson spent years blamming hardships of their pasts rather than working hard to over come what they have faced in life? Would they be where they are today? I don't think so.

5th As to the student in your chem class working hard but not making the grade to show it, well that is probably the main point here. If people work hard BUT still can not work up to where the rest are, then why in the world should that entitle them to special rights simply because of their status in life? That is called life, pure and simple. If you had a person in your class that was not a URM but was also working hard and not making the grade would it be fair to help him out as well. Where do you draw the line.

Hey, the line has to be drawn somewhere. that is the purpose for grades. You either make the grade...... or you don't.
 
It is interesting that you bring up Ben Carson. If you read his books well, "Gifted hands" and "Think Big" You would realize that he had to work so much harder than even his white counterparts to get to where he is. Not only did he have to do as well, he had to overcome many hardships that many of his white colleagues who had prep school education did not have to deal with. It is very unfortunate that you intentionally misunderstood my reference to your ACT score. My point, which I still stand by, was that standardized tests are not the only deciding factors. It doesn't matter whether you prepared well enough for the ACT or not, most standardized tests try to test aptitude as much as effort. I put it well and truly to you that someone else who put in just as much effort as you put into the ACT could have at least scored a 24... Likewise someone who worked just as hard as you on the MCAT could have scored lower..duh
You betray your true motives when you accuse me of wanting to blame my personal failures on hardships. For starters you don't know anything about me, you don't know my stats and you don't know where I've interviewed and where I've been accepted so I'll just ignore that statement. if however, that was a blanket statement to support your wrong notion that anyone that STATES on the their application that they are URM is just looking for easy breaks, I say to you, that is a silly assumption and you expose your prejudice!
 
what a waist of time!!!all i have to say is that everyone should go to med school and work hard no matter how you got there..if you don't get in this year, apply again and again...some people in this forum applied more than 2-3 times and got in...it's never too late to start med school...can't we all just get along!!!
i don't think amy beth meant any harm with this discussion, but it's getting ugly...so everyone just keep your thoughts in your head... ;)
good luck everyone!!
 
Any preference given to people just because of their race is racism. At some point people need to sink or swim on their own. They had AA for college, and now for med school? Wen does it end, when do the excuses stop? Why couldn't they excel enough in college? What about the rich black applicant, or the poor white applicant? If you keep sterotypes and prejudices around that benefit people, the ones that harm them will continue to remain.
 
I am currently reading Dr Carson's book "The Big Picture" Prejudice, HA. Most prejudice people don't usually read books about people they are supposed to be prejudice against.

And, actually you helped to make my point. Dr. Carson did not say, well I have a low score but ignore that cause of who I am (i'm not saying he had lower score). He did work extra harder and I commend him for that. I have heard him speak in the past and he said at one point that he doesn't like when a black person doesn't try, because that helps to make the entire black race look stupid and lazy.

Perhapes I should have reworded my 4th point in my post. I wasn't talking about you personally. I was using "you" as people in general. I do apologize if it seemed like I was.

I have absolutely "no true motives".

You wrote
""to support your wrong notion that anyone that STATES on the their application that they are URM is just looking for easy breaks, I say to you, that is a silly assumption and you expose your prejudice!""

I didn't say that. Don't put words into my mouth. Don't assume you are reading between the lines or guessing my hidden thoughts. I have no hidden agenda. I have been a poster here a lot longer than you have. I tell it like I see it. I have no hidden things nor have I ever given anyone cause to think I am writing one thing but thinking another.

Thank you cafu for recogizing that I didn't mean any harm. And your right it does seem to have turned into an attack session. I have reread my orginial post and I stand by it as simply inquiring as to why people seemed to use URM status to post low scores and make them seem ok in the application pool.

Perhapes we should just delete this whole thread. What do you think distiguished moderators ;)
 
Amy,
I admit that you sound like a nice person. I don't think we can ever agree on this issue. I may have read too much into your first post. That is how your post came out when I read it. Sorry if I'm wrong about you... BUT if in your heart of hearts you know that you have some prejudice, please deal with it. Once again sorry. Let us agree to disagree
Cheerio :)
 
Your right. i think this issue is just too explosive. But it does make for an interesting debate topic. I say right here, right now as I tried to do two pages ago... Let us all agree to disagree and let this archive itself. I can say it has helped pass time until school starts in two days. :p

Good luck to all who have posted. Good luck in both school and the contiuning application process and MCAT study and anything else you want to achieve. That is all I will say on this thread. See you in other threads. Bye :p :p :p
 
Originally posted by Amy Beth:
•I am currently reading Dr Carson's book "The Big Picture" •••

Cool! I was reading "Think Big" but then stopped half way through and because it's so similar to "Gifted Hands", it has been difficult to find motivation to finish. In any case I'll eventually get back to it.

Carson is argueably the best neurosurgeon ever, and so it's unfair to set him as a standard for anyone; not even for the brightest asians and whites, talk less of as a standard for URMs.

Aurevoir peeps

:(
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by 2shizzy:
[QB]

"I couldn't agree more. So as not to be redundant, I'll reference my earlier post of the anecdotal ghetto kid being destined from the day of his birth to score low on the MCAT. The suburban kid on the other hand has all his stars in alignment from day 1 to acheive a high score on SAT, MCAT, or whatever."

Yet strangely, the poor ghetto white or Asian kid outscores the rich suburban minority kid.


"Implicit in my point of course is the fact that most ghetto kids are minorities."

But most minorities do not live in the ghettos. Either way, your argument is irrelevant, if not self-defeating, since poor ghetto white and Asian kids outscore rich suburban minority kids.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by toobsllik:
[QBEither way, your argument is irrelevant[/QB]••

My argument is not irrelevant! You're simply too racist to get the point. I would ignore your false and completely absurd claim that the POOREST white kids outscore the RICHEST minority kids.

Despite the fact that only a racist would make or believe your claim, I'm going to remind you that INCOME is a huge factor but NOT the ONLY factor. Other important factors include for how long (or for how many generations) the family has been in a high income bracket. 1)Have they been in the $70,000+ bracket for at least 10 yrs? 2)Are both parents educated? 3)do they have advanced degrees? 4)does either of the grandparents have a college education? 5)did the kids attend private school or at least high scoring public schools?

Honestly tell me how many minority families in your phony racist study could answered YES on ALL these criteria.

Juvenile earns at least a million$/yr right? Does that necessarily place his kids in a position to get high standardized test scores? The guy can hardly speak english.
Click to expand...
 
Toobsllik:

One more thing. Most of what you know now, you learned prior to the age of 2.

If any of the participants of your racist study were not in the $70,000+ zone early in their lives, then that alone is grounds for dismissal of this grand racist scam.

Such studies date back to centuries. You're not saying anything new. It's so old that believe it or not I didn't even bother looking at the links you provided.
 
everybody tries to end this thread. you'll see something like "ok, let's go devote time to other threads and helping others out" or some other comment about leaving this thread alone because it's so unproductive. YOU CAN'T CONTROL THIS THREAD. IT LIVES AND BREATHES LIKE THE MONSTER THAT PERMEATES OUR SOCIETY THAT JUDGES AND HATES. WE WILL NEVER BE RID OF THIS THREAD. (laughs demonically)
 
In defense of Simseema, "suck it up" means the same as "rolling up your sleeves" and other expressions that infer working hard when things get tough. So I think that the criticism laid at her was inappropriate, especially by Incendiary. Simseema's message is exactly the one you say should be given, "strive to overcome" problems that come up.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

C564
PSA: don't ask other people about their II/A status
Replies
0
Views
839
C564
C564
F
Does going to a T10 school mean I have lean towards academic medicine?
Replies
2
Views
951
chord
chord
dihedralsymmetry
I don't know what I'm doing wrong
Replies
22
Views
2K
RunnerDad
R
A
don’t know what to prioritize as my most meaningful experience out of several great activities
Replies
3
Views
254
cj_cregg
cj_cregg
premedbarista
does it look bad to have a minor in spanish if I don't speak spanish?
Replies
9
Views
639
Alejandro
A
Top