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I graduated from Carib, ask me why you should stay away

Mikkus

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    Due to recent threads I thought it was time I wrote up my experience, and help guide others in their Carib journey.
    • When I ran the statistics of my incoming 1st term class vs my 5th term class, only 66% of the same names were on the roster. Many of my friends and partners decelled. Some failed a class by .01 % and were permanently excused, locking them in with 100k+ in debt and nothing to show. Some repeatedly failed steps, and were "graduated"/excused with a masters in biology.
    • The teachers were horrible, many do not speak English clearly. Many times test questions reflected this.
    • Clinical rotation sites vary from being a complete joke to being 120 hrs a week, depending on where you chose to rotate. Some locations rotate directly with students from USMD schools.
      • During interviews, many PD's were nervous about my clinical experience. If I was in their shoes I would be nervous as well.
      • You cannot easily do audition rotations, a fact Carib tries to hide. You must pay for any audition rotation you wish to complete, and many sites will not even consider taking an international student.
    • When you compare my interview invite list with DO students with similar or lessor scores than me, you can see the heavy bias in the direction of DO grads. Again, if I was a PD I would feel the same. I would say 90% of the mid to higher end IM programs would rather a DO with a step 1 of 240 than a Carib with a 260.
    • I made a stupid decision of going carib. Family doctor pressure and coming from a lower class upbringing played a part, but in the end it was me not doing my research. I worked hard to be in the top 5% of my carib class, but my choice of university IM programs was still limited.
    • Many of my friends did not match at all, some had to SOAP. I do not know a single person out of 9 that SOAP'd successfully.
      • The school offers no guidance in terms of how many positions you should apply to, or what specialty. We had one talk stating if you don't have a 220 on step one your SOL come match time, and that was about it.
    • I ended up matching in my #1 choice, a decent university IM program. I got very lucky, and I am the only one I know that matched at their top choice. Some matched as far down as 12th.
    So, I hope we can have an honest discussion of Carib education. Ask me anything and I will try to answer to the best of my abilities, while staying anonymous of course =)
     
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    LuluLovesMe

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      What school did you go to?

      Can you go into a bit more depth about what some of your rotations were like?

      How many of your classmates expressed regrets about going to a Caribbean school?

      What sort of credentials did your professors have? Did you feel like they wanted to be teaching there?
       
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      Mikkus

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        What school did you go to?
        • I went to SGU, since it was the "best"
        Can you go into a bit more depth about what some of your rotations were like?
        • I rotated at a hospital that had USMD students rotating along with us. Caveat of this hospital was no international students were allowed to rotate there.
        • You submit your top 3 STATES you want to move to, and sgu puts you in a random hospital. I have some friends that ended up in NY when that was not on their list. Another friend ended up with no core site, and had to move to different states for each rotation(florida, maryland, ny, nj,) Some hospitals in ny are better core sites than others, so its just luck of the draw. It is hypothesized that the higher step students get priority for some of the nicer hospitals in ny and nj.
        • The school signs you up for your schedule, so you have no control of when each is. For example, a friend wanted to go into EM, but his EM rotation was at scheduled at the end of 3rd year, meaning he got no experience in em before residency stuff really began.
          • The million dollar mistake blog highlights this well...
        • 4th year you are more in charge of your schedule, but trying to find places that offer the electives you desire can be hard. Almost everyone ends up moving states at least once, if not more.
        How many of your classmates expressed regrets about going to a Caribbean school?
        • Many obviously felt limited once match time came. You feel great when you get a super high step, almost like you have overcome the hurdle of being an IMG, but then match time comes around and brings everyone back to reality. If many of us went US we would have had choices, not just IM/EM/Anes/Peds. Many even failed to get psych with decent stats.
        What sort of credentials did your professors have? Did you feel like they wanted to be teaching there?
        • Many professors looked great on paper, but were just bad teachers. It looked great for SGU to say X and Y are coming to lecture, but the person obviously had no interest in teaching. SGU gives these specialist professors a hotel like stay in their university club, it's a great gig for them.
        • Clinical coordinators were a different story, many came from India and Africa, and were using Sgu as a stepping stone to try to get a US residency. Many had no interest in helping students, and some had no idea just what they were teaching exactly. They managed most of our group learning.
         
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        darkeon

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          Did you meet students from other Caribbean schools during your rotations?

          For the friends of yours who didn't match, what seems to be the popular route taken from there after?
           
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          Mikkus

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            Did you meet students from other Caribbean schools during your rotations?
            • My personal rotation site only had other usmd students, so I did not encounter many other schools.

            For the friends of yours who didn't match, what seems to be the popular route taken from there after?
            • Most seem to be dumbfounded. I believe The school offered a free? Or low cost mph year program to those who did not match. I know one who gave up, many are attempting to still find a position. Oddly, those I know who failed a step matched, it was the people who were over confidant or applied to only harder specialties who are now floundering.
             
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            Mikkus

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              Is Dr. LX full of it?
              Yeah, pretty much why I finally decided to write this thread. I did the statistics off of my entering class, so I don't know Ross specifically. I have heard their retention rate is lower than sgu, but that is hearsay.
              Even some students who would be considered top quarter of sgu did not match, so dr. Lx saying he knew no one who failed is pretty much impossible based on my experiences.
               
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              @Mikkus @Lost in Translation So taking your advice at face value along with Dr. LX it's safe to say that Ross University is the better of the two Caribbean medical schools. Unless you're planning on telling me that SGU also has a 97% Step 1 pass rate which Ross reported on Ross's Step 1 pass rate using exclusive data only available to Ross.
               
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              laughingfrog

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                im going to ask the question we're all wondering. how is the partying on the islands. and by partying i mean sex. and by sex i mean all the attractive people who didnt get into US schools being cooped up on a island together far away from home hooking up with each other. and b hooking up i mean sex.
                 
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                Mikkus

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                  I don't know if one is better per say, sgu has a 97/96 % pass rate on usmle as well. I think more telling statistics would be step 2cs pass rates.
                  We were told they only had only an 80% pass. Sgu also has a larger class size than Ross from what I am told, my class was 750 to start, along with the December class and the European class as well makes a ton of students. Before we could take step we had to pass a nbme type test, so high pass rates are not surprising.
                   
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                  im going to ask the question we're all wondering. how is the partying on the islands. and by partying i mean sex. and by sex i mean all the attractive people who didnt get into US schools being cooped up on a island together far away from home hooking up with each other. and b hooking up i mean sex.
                  I have stories for you that I can't even ascribe words to them.
                   
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                  @Mikkus Are you telling me that SGU informed you that Ross University is lying about Ross University's first-time Step 1 pass rate? I'm sorry, I'll stop. My impression of SGU was that the school in general was a bit more toned down on the Kool-Aid.
                   

                  Mikkus

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                    Unfortunately, many premeds will see this as, "yeah I ****ed up during college/MCAT but I'll definitely be the best in the Caribbean and match like Mikkus."

                    I really hope this is not what people take from this thread. I was 1 in 100, maybe. The statistics are not in anyone's favor to have a good outcome from the Caribbean. It doesn't matter how nice or personable or smart you are down there, all that matters is your ability to pass tests. Clinicals are a crapshoot on how lucky you get in your placement.
                    Anyone that goes to the Caribbean needs to be prepared to match fm or a non university IM program as their best case. Decisions should not be based on the outliers.
                     
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                    Mikkus

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                      @Mikkus Are you telling me that SGU informed you that Ross University is lying about Ross University's first-time Step 1 pass rate? I'm sorry, I'll stop. My impression of SGU was that the school in general was a bit more toned down on the Kool-Aid.

                      Both schools use any statistic that makes them look good. Sgu holds the same amount of guilt. Step one pass rates for Ross and sgu are published, maybe I'm confused what you are asking? Both schools make you pass an nbme before you can take the real exam, which is how the schools are able to receive such a high pass rate.
                       
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                      Mikkus

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                        Why did you choose to go to SGU?
                        I was a non traditional with a large publication background, and many people in my lab pushed for me to go Carib instead of do or a grad program. Looking back do would have been the smarter choice, but at the time I didn't realize it was a viable option for research. Young and dumb they say.
                        I found these forums after my first term of school, when I saw large number of my friends decelling. Iwas unable to transfer out at that point.


                        In terms of partying I heard stories, and many treated it like a second undergrad degree. Generally those are the individuals who failed. The high point of my weeks was finding the grocery store actually had butter in stock or my banana tree was ripe.
                         
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                        Both schools use any statistic that makes them look good. Sgu holds the same amount of guilt. Step one pass rates for Ross and sgu are published, maybe I'm confused what you are asking? Both schools make you pass an nbme before you can take the real exam, which is how the schools are able to receive such a high pass rate.

                        Just trying to figure out whose bringing down the 97% to 78%.
                         

                        Mikkus

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                          I have never heard the 78% statistic. I believe SGU and Ross saying they have a 97% step one pass rate, because anyone who did not pass the nbme does not take the step 1. All other statistics are questionable though.
                           
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                          Mikkus

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                            I'm on a phone so maybe I'm reading that wrong, but it looks like it says 78% IMG+FMG pass rate. That includes all international schools, India, European, African.... Many of those schools do not teach to the usmle exams. While Caribbean schools are not a good option, you can't lump their test takers in with foreign medical graduates. Apples and oranges.
                             
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                            I'm on a phone so maybe I'm reading that wrong, but it looks like it says 87% IMG pass rate. That includes all international schools, India, European, African.... Many of those schools do not teach to the usmle exams. While Caribbean schools are not a good option, you can't lump their test takers in with foreign medical graduates. Apples and oranges.
                            They separate FMG from IMG in the statistics. However schools that have NBME requirements do not account for the 78% statistic due to the requirement that a Step 1 first-taker are examinees with no prior Step 1 and no prior NBME Part 1 examinations. I think.
                             

                            Mikkus

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                              They separate FMG from IMG in the statistics. However schools that have NBME requirements do not account for the 78% statistic due to the requirement that a Step 1 first-taker are examinees with no prior Step 1 and no prior NBME Part 1 examinations. I think.

                              This was the only graph I saw on that website with a 78% listed.
                              This graph is lumping all foreign grads with Carib grads.
                              Even if it only showed Caribbean grads, there are 100s of smaller Carib schools (we've all seen the Windsor and St. James threads) with much worse step prep. Lumping Windsor graduates with sgu/ross graduates will create a very different number than just ross/sgu alone.
                              I wouldn't base sgu's perceived lying based on that alone. Yes, they lie, Yes they fudge statistics.
                              But this step score statistic would be a hard one to lie on.
                               

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                              Heist

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                                Due to recent threads I thought it was time I wrote up my experience, and help guide others away from the Carib route.
                                • When I ran the statistics of my incoming 1st term class vs my 5th term class, only 66% of the same names were on the roster. Many of my friends and partners decelled. Some failed a class by .01 % and were permanently excused, locking them in with 100k+ in debt and nothing to show. Some repeatedly failed steps, and were "graduated"/excused with a masters in biology.
                                • The teachers were horrible, many do not speak English clearly. Many times test questions reflected this.
                                • Clinical rotation sites vary from being a complete joke to being 120 hrs a week, depending on where you chose to rotate. Some locations rotate directly with students from USMD schools.
                                  • During interviews, many PD's were nervous about my clinical experience. If I was in their shoes I would be nervous as well.
                                  • You cannot easily do away rotations, a fact Carib tries to hide. You must pay for any away rotation you wish to complete, and many sites will not even consider taking an international student.
                                • When you compare my interview invite list with DO students with similar or lessor scores than me, you can see the heavy bias in the direction of DO grads. Again, if I was a PD I would feel the same. I would say 90% of the mid to higher end IM programs would rather a DO with a step 1 of 240 than a Carib with a 260.
                                • I made a stupid decision of going carib. Family doctor pressure and coming from a lower class upbringing played a part, but in the end it was me not doing my research. I worked hard to be in the top 5% of my carib class, but my choice of university IM programs was still limited.
                                • Many of my friends did not match at all, some had to SOAP. I do not know a single person out of 9 that SOAP'd successfully.
                                  • The school offers no guidance in terms of how many positions you should apply to, or what specialty. We had one talk stating if you don't have a 220 on step one your SOL come match time, and that was about it.
                                • I ended up matching in my #1 choice, a decent university IM program. I got very lucky, and I am the only one I know that matched at their top choice. Some matched as far down as 12th.
                                So, I hope we can have an honest discussion of why Carib should be avoided. Ask me anything and I will try to answer to the best of my abilities, while staying anonymous of course =)
                                Thanks.

                                How are people able to pay for the education? Same med school loans as us grads? Private loans? Parents to underwrite?

                                Where are the rotations? Away rotations are in the us?

                                What's soap?
                                 

                                Heist

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                                  Both schools use any statistic that makes them look good. Sgu holds the same amount of guilt. Step one pass rates for Ross and sgu are published, maybe I'm confused what you are asking? Both schools make you pass an nbme before you can take the real exam, which is how the schools are able to receive such a high pass rate.
                                  I've met many of these students. They have to pass the practice test. They can't miss by one point.
                                  I feel that these schools just teach to the test. Not much depth or breadth of knowledge. They keep churning students out as fast as possible to make money
                                   
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                                  Law2Doc

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                                    ...
                                    Where are the rotations? Away rotations are in the us?

                                    What's soap?

                                    As he already said the rotations are at hospitals throughout the US. The offshore schools contract with (usually community) hospitals to provide rotations. It's not an "away" rotation because the Caribbean schools don't really have a home rotation.

                                    Soap is the more recent iteration of the scramble. It seeks to fill spots that went unfilled in the match in a more organized (but generally less offshore friendly) way.
                                     
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                                    Law2Doc

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                                      He did mention it is hard to get away rotation. Does that mean the us rotation?
                                      Again, these aren't "away" rotations because these places have no "home" rotations. It's ALL contracted for at hospitals in the US. There aren't rotations on the islands, you spend your latter two years stateside.

                                      An "away" rotation, by contrast is something you might choose to do at another program coming from a US school, where you go someplace other than your home school. It's also sometimes called an audition rotation. And it's totally different than what we are talking about in this thread.
                                       
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                                      Mikkus

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                                        Thanks.

                                        How are people able to pay for the education? Same med school loans as us grads? Private loans? Parents to underwrite?
                                        • Almost all American students take out government loans, which is one of the reasons many advise to only consider the big 4 schools, the 4 schools who are granted government loans. I do not know of a single American who did not take out loans.

                                        Where are the rotations? Away rotations are in the us?
                                        • Rotations were all in the US. Everyone received a rotation schedule in the US if they asked for one.
                                        • Some elected to do an elective rotation overseas, but this was their choice. Site locations vary, SGU has a few "core" sites also known as clinical centers. These centers are places you can complete all of your mandatory 3rd year rotations in one location. No one is guaranteed placement at a core site, and SGU can change your calendar with as little as 2 weeks notice. Many people assumed they would be able to pick any clinical site- say to be near to family. This is really a crap shoot. You could end up in Detroit/Toledo/NY/NJ near your family, or you could end up traveling every month to different centers.
                                        • Away rotations terminology gets a bit ambiguous here. I was discussing any rotation away from your assigned SGU affiliated hospital. Any hospital not directly hired by SGU to teach you will make you jump through unbelievable hoops to attend. I know of two or three people that managed to acquire one, mostly through prior contacts.
                                        • Since SGU does not have a "home" hospital, any rotation away from your clinical center is considered an away rotation, and any rotation outside of the sgu network is considered an audition rotation.
                                          • An audition rotation is something SGU was never taught of, the only reason I know of them is from these forums. Again, they fall under the same umbrella as above. Very challenging to acquire, costly and your loans do not directly cover it, and the school does nothing to help you schedule them. To obtain one of these limited spots, you have to compete with all foreign med students, and many hospitals just don't want to waste the time when a us student could come in with no hassle, since their school has streamlined the process already.

                                        What's soap?

                                        Believe this was answered above, but to make sure all bases are covered.... "During Match Week, unmatched and partially matched applicants may participate in the Supplemental Offer and Acceptance Program® (SOAP®) to try to obtain an unfilled residency position." -NMRP website
                                        Also, thank you @Law2Doc for helping me to fill in some holes. I fixed some wording to hopefully make myself a bit clearer, but it gets confusing- away vs auditions.
                                         
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                                        ZezKaiEll

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                                          Do you have a rough idea of how many people are in the winter starting class each year? You've said 750 for the fall.

                                          Also do you know if the 34% attrition rate that you mentioned includes the individuals who don't score well enough on NBME to sit for Step 1?

                                          When Caribbean discussions come up around here, we often get on the topic of the chances of making it to (any) residency. Since the schools themselves don't provide reliable data, we usually have to estimate. If I can get the class size numbers, I'd like to use your attrition figures to whip something up to get an idea for SGU.

                                          Thanks in advance.
                                           

                                          the argus

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                                            I really hope this is not what people take from this thread. I was 1 in 100, maybe. The statistics are not in anyone's favor to have a good outcome from the Caribbean. It doesn't matter how nice or personable or smart you are down there, all that matters is your ability to pass tests. Clinicals are a crapshoot on how lucky you get in your placement.
                                            Anyone that goes to the Caribbean needs to be prepared to match fm or a non university IM program as their best case. Decisions should not be based on the outliers.
                                            You were not 1 in a 100. I'm all for being honest about the pros and cons of going to the caribbean, but you're being a little dramatic. Going through SGU's match list from 2016 shows

                                            27 anesthesia
                                            2 rads
                                            41 EM
                                            ~40 University FM (not univ-affiliated)
                                            ~110 full University IM (not univ-affiliated)
                                            2 University med/peds
                                            1 neurosurg
                                            7 neurology
                                            25 OBGYN
                                            2 ortho
                                            13 path
                                            ~30 full University peds (not univ-affiliated)
                                            2 PMR
                                            ~20 full University psychiatry (not univ-affiliated)
                                            25 categorical gen surg

                                            so thats ~350 non-primary care or university primary care matches, which is probably ~40% of the total matches. I'm assuming you didn't start with 35,000 people in your medical school class, so saying you are "1 in 100, maybe" because you matched at a university IM program is being a little disingenuous. I agree that you shouldn't go to the caribbean unless you would be happy in primary care (FM, IM, psych), but saying best case scenario is FM or community IM is ridiculous.

                                            Again, I think this is a good discussion so people can be informed before choosing to go to the caribbean, I just think we should keep things at least somewhat in the realm of reality.
                                             
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                                            Mikkus

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                                              Do you have a rough idea of how many people are in the winter starting class each year? You've said 750 for the fall.
                                              • From what I was told, the December class started with about 450. I do not have any confirmed information on this, and I do not know what the retention rate was. I would think retention would be higher for them, since they have an extra 6 months to study. So for the year, that makes 750+450+30= 1230 total who should have matched this year, who started four years ago. I have been told these starting numbers have increased. The 30 is the Keith B Taylor students.

                                              Also do you know if the 34% attrition rate that you mentioned includes the individuals who don't score well enough on NBME to sit for Step 1?
                                              • I took my numbers at the starting roster of anatomy- 1st term(which might include 1st term 2nd try decells) and the beginning of 5th term so therefore does not include 5th term decels, the nbme results, or any 3rd and 4th year problems.
                                              • 866 people are in a pgy-1 according to the sgu website for this year. 1230-866= 364 people. This includes people who are trying to match for a second time, people who took extra years, ect. So when I did my statistic I compared names who were in 1st term compared to those in 5th term. Anyone whos name was not on both lists was considered a decel or fail, and part of the 34% statistic. Many were decels and would still be matching, just a year later, therefore would show in the match statistic still.

                                              When Caribbean discussions come up around here, we often get on the topic of the chances of making it to (any) residency. Since the schools themselves don't provide reliable data, we usually have to estimate. If I can get the class size numbers, I'd like to use your attrition figures to whip something up to get an idea for SGU.
                                              • Hopefully this helps. I wanted the concrete data, which is why I crunched all the data. =)

                                              Thanks in advance.

                                              Did you ever meet the wizard of the wards while attending the Harvard of the Caribbean?
                                              • No.
                                              Knowing what you know now, if Caribbean was your last resort, would you have rather gone overseas and matched (your life now) or not even go in the first place and have no shot at becoming a doctor?
                                              • I would not have taken the chance. If I, like many others have learned the hard way, were not good at test taking I would be on the street with at the least 50k in debt. Most fail or decel in 4th term, meaning 200k in debt. If you fail a class you are DONE. I would rather have no shot at becoming a doctor than gamble for a chance. Those who fail late into 2nd year ruin their lives. There is no coming back from 200k in debt.
                                               
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                                              Mikkus

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                                                You were not 1 in a 100. I'm all for being honest about the pros and cons of going to the caribbean, but you're being a little dramatic. Going through SGU's match list from 2016 shows

                                                27 anesthesia
                                                2 rads
                                                41 EM
                                                ~40 University FM (not univ-affiliated)
                                                ~110 full University IM (not univ-affiliated)
                                                2 University med/peds
                                                1 neurosurg
                                                7 neurology
                                                25 OBGYN
                                                2 ortho
                                                13 path
                                                ~30 full University peds (not univ-affiliated)
                                                2 PMR
                                                ~20 full University psychiatry (not univ-affiliated)
                                                25 categorical gen surg

                                                so thats ~350 non-primary care or university primary care matches, which is probably ~40% of the total matches. I'm assuming you didn't start with 35,000 people in your medical school class, so saying you are "1 in 100, maybe" because you matched at a university IM program is being a little disingenuous. I agree that you shouldn't go to the caribbean unless you would be happy in primary care (FM, IM, psych), but saying best case scenario is FM or community IM is ridiculous.

                                                Again, I think this is a good discussion so people can be informed before choosing to go to the Caribbean, I just think we should keep things at least somewhat in the realm of reality.

                                                So, first, the SGU website leaves a lot of information off the match list. Many of those university matches are entered incorrectly. Some others are known malignant programs. I am friendly with some of these students. I know their scores, their personalities, their goals, their match lists. Many were not happy with where they ended up. So lets say ~50 were matched well, where they expected to match when they entered SGU. If 1260 started SGU 4 years ago for this match, that's 3.96%.
                                                Maybe I was a bit dramatic, I'll agree with you. It is just disheartening when even the smartest of my cohorts did not end up in the field/area they wanted.
                                                 
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                                                sdhere1234

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                                                  So, first, the SGU website leaves a lot of information off the match list. Many of those university matches are entered incorrectly. Some others are known malignant programs. I am friendly with some of these students. I know their scores, their personalities, their goals, their match lists. Many were not happy with where they ended up. So lets say ~50 were matched well, where they expected to match when they entered SGU. If 1260 started SGU 4 years ago for this match, that's 3.96%.
                                                  Maybe I was a bit dramatic, I'll agree with you. It is just disheartening when even the smartest of my cohorts did not end up in the field/area they wanted.

                                                  Isn't that entirely on them? No one (who's reasonable) goes to SGU with the mindset that if they play their cards right, they'll match into the specialty/area they desire. I view SGU/carib as a last resort of allowing you to become a practicing physician within the US. If you're trying to match ortho/derm/plastics or IM at MGH and go to SGU, then I don't really see how that's on the school.

                                                  Don't you have to be a bit realistic when it comes to going overseas? As in you better be content with FM/IM/Peds in ****ty locations, but at the end of the day, you still receive your MD and can practice wherever you want after residency.
                                                   
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                                                  Mikkus

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                                                  1. Resident [Any Field]
                                                    Isn't that entirely on them? No one (who's reasonable) goes to SGU with the mindset that if they play their cards right, they'll match into the specialty/area they desire. I view SGU/carib as a last resort of allowing you to become a practicing physician within the US. If you're trying to match ortho/derm/plastics or IM at MGH and go to SGU, then I don't really see how that's on the school.

                                                    Don't you have to be a bit realistic when it comes to going overseas? As in you better be content with FM/IM/Peds in ****ty locations, but at the end of the day, you still receive your MD and can practice wherever you want after residency.
                                                    The purpose of this thread was only for reality sake. If you go in with your eyes open you have a much better chance of being successful.

                                                    I guess the take away message
                                                    • If you have applied to do and md, more than 2 cycles, feel medicine is your only future, you are an amazing test taker, you understand the hurdles that will be thrown at you, and your ready for the possibility of failing, then you will be much better prepared to win the carib. But keep in mind that even if you ace everything, you will have an uphill battle to pass an md student.
                                                     
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                                                    sdhere1234

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                                                      The purpose of this thread was only for reality sake. If you go in with your eyes open you have a much better chance of being successful.

                                                      I guess the take away message
                                                      • If you have applied to do and md, more than 2 cycles, feel medicine is your only future, you are an amazing test taker, you understand the hurdles that will be thrown at you, and your ready for the possibility of failing, then you will be much better prepared to win the carib. But keep in mind that even if you ace everything, you will have an uphill battle to pass an md student.

                                                      Absolutely agreed.

                                                      Now do you believe the students who failed out would have been successful if they were in an MD/DO program in the states? Or do you think because of the wide nets of carib schools (allowing students who are not qualified to matriculate just for the $$) that they had no place being there in the first place and would have performed just as poorly if they were here in the states.
                                                       
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