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I just do not see the advantages/disadvantages

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by smsc2009, Mar 25, 2007.

  1. smsc2009

    smsc2009 2+ Year Member

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    Hi,
    I have been around all the boards here at SDN asking questions about different careers in medicine. I am currently a sophmore in high school intrested in medical school. I plan on going to a CSU/UC (I am a California resident) and doing my premedicine requirments. I want to go to a CSU/UC because of the tuition rate, this way I won't have to worry as much about Med School debt because there will be no undergraduate debt. A few questions,

    1. I have read on the forums that going to a state school is not good, and in fact going to a community college could be better. I can't find the threads now, (search is not working for me) however is this true?

    2. I understand for D.O. you do NOT need a BS, or BA.. you simply need the premedicine requirments + MCAT, while with MD you need some form of a Bacholars, correct?

    3. If I choose the MD/DO route, at this time I want to be a Neurologist (I have my reasons for choosing this speicality, I did not just pick it out of a hat) As a Nuerologist I don't see the advantages/disadvantages of going DO, could somebody please explain why being a DO Neurologist is different from being a MD Nuerologist. As I understand it the only difference is OMM, correct? Would I beable to use OMM Neurology?

    4. Also, I understand that after Med School becoming Neurologist is a 4 year process, 1 year of IM, and then 3 years of Neurology. After the residency I would beable to to a one year fellowship in Alzheimer's disease, right?

    5. Is it true that as a DO I would have to complete an addition year of training to be a Neurologist? The states I see myself practicing or either NY, NJ, PA, or CA.


    I would appreicate if someone to could me information on why to go DO vs MD if wanting to practice Neurology, or even why to go MD vs DO,
    Thanks
     
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  3. Taty

    Taty Senior Member 10+ Year Member

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    You NEED B.S or B.A if you want to be a DO plus prereq + MCAT. SEarch forums you'll find many answers. Good luck in your studies.:luck: :luck:
     
  4. Seger

    Seger 2+ Year Member

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    You do not NEED an undergraduate degree; however, it is very rare to get accepted without it. To prevent further arguments on that point, my father has been a practicing physician for 15 years, went to NSU-COM, and to this day does not have a bachelor's degree.

    Next, at your age, you may want to look for schools that offer special programs for pre-med students. For instance, some schools offer dual-degree programs in which you attend 3 years of undergraduate schooling, 4 years of medical school, and then are awarded both degrees at the end of the 7 year program. Again, no arguments please - I have an uncle who did this at KCOM.

    Obviously, the programs are changing, and it is becoming more challenging to take accelerated paths to medical school. This is primarily due to the continued focus on maturity in the interview process.
     
  5. Seger

    Seger 2+ Year Member

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    Without getting into philosophical issues, the biggest advantage to becoming a DO first before specializing, in my opinion, is that you will be trained as a primary care physician first. This is not the case at MD schools. On the other hand, if you are dead-set 100% sure that you want to specialize, then you may be able to save some time by going to an MD school - your training just won't be as diverse.
     
  6. tkim

    tkim 10 cc's cordrazine Physician 10+ Year Member

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    I'd have to disagree with this assessment. During medical *school* we are being trained *to be trained* in residency. Unless you count traditionally higher numbers of family or rural medicine rotations in DO schools versus MD schools, which is still a stretch, you are simply not being trained as primary care physician. Physician training takes place at the graduate medicine level.
     
  7. Seger

    Seger 2+ Year Member

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    I have to disagree with you. My father is a primary care physician and never did a residency.
     
  8. musiclink213

    musiclink213 My room is a mess 7+ Year Member

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    In regards to your first question, I don't think there is any problem with going to a state school. In any event, it's still better than a CC, especially for the prereqs. Also, California has some really nice state schools, go to a 4 year university over a CC if you can. If you don't like the state school, you can always transfer later if you want, same as a CC.
     
  9. Kuba

    Kuba Physician 10+ Year Member

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    MDApps:
    Op: focus on the Friday night football games for now
    It's neurologist
     
  10. MedStudentWanna

    MedStudentWanna Banned Banned 5+ Year Member

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    Okay, so your father never got a Bachelor's and your father never did a residency. Pray tell, what did he do? Graduate from med school and simply hang shingles outside his basement to start recruiting patients?

    Does anyone else find this incredibly hard to believe?

    The fact of the matter is, 99.9% of the time, you won't be accepted to medical school without being on your way to a Bachelor's degree and I believe ALL U.S. medical schools (both MD and DO) require at least 90 undergraduate credits BEFORE you apply for medical schools. Occasionally, you might find one or two people who had 90 credits, applied, got accepted, then decided not to finish undergrad and were still admitted, but that's very, very rare. Most schools will revoke your acceptance unless you graduate before you matriculate, but either way, you WILL NOT be accepted to ANY U.S. medical school (either DO or MD) by only doing the pre-reqs and the MCAT. That's pharmacy school, not medical school.

    Secondly, all fully LICENSED physicians are required to do a residency. For DO programs, if you plan to practice in one of five states (FL, PA, TX, and can't remember the others off-hand), you have to do a DO-approved internship. Many people get around this by doing an MD internship and submitting it for approval. In most cases, you will not spend any extra time going for neurology as a DO than you will as an MD.
     
  11. group_theory

    group_theory EX-TER-MIN-ATE!' Administrator Physician Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    At this point, just focus on doing well in high school, taking college-prep classes ... and enjoying yourself responsibly.

    To answer your questions ...

    1. Your choice of college is dependant on your personal circumstsances. In general, admission committee at medical schools like to see that you can handle yourself in a rigorous academic environment. The perception is that a 4-year college is more rigorous than a 2-year community college. (while it may be true that your 2-year community college science classes are vigorous, it is hard for someone on an admission committee thousands of miles away to know that).

    2. The rules about the need for a Bachelor degree is dependant on the school itself (and not MD versus DO). The vast majority of matriculating students will have at least a bachelor, and many will have Masters. It is the exceptional rare student that gets admitted without a bachelor (MD or DO school).

    3. Whether you use OMM as a practicing neurologist is completely up to you. There is ongoing research right now on the effects of OMM on several neurological disorders. We'll see how these studies turn out.

    4. That is true - you do a 1 year prelim medicine followed by a 3 year residency in neurology. Don't know enough about Neurology fellowships to comment on this aspect of training.

    5. Five States specifically require you to complete an AOA-internship year. These states are PA, MI, WV, OK, FL.
    Two approach with neurology ... do an AOA-approve internship in lieu of your 1 year prelim medicine year then jump into your ACGME (MD) neurology residency ... or do a AOA (DO) residency in neurology ... both methods will NOT add any additional time to your training

    Good luck in high school ... go worry more about getting your driver license and less about practicing medicine ... worry more about PSAT and SAT instead of MCAT and COMLEX/USMLE

    Cheers!!!
     
  12. group_theory

    group_theory EX-TER-MIN-ATE!' Administrator Physician Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    FYI, that's how PCP back in the OLD OLD days did things ... graduate from med school, do a 1 year internship, and go out and start a practice ... they are known as GPs (general practitioners) ... very rarely do people do this option these days.

    Licensed physicians are not required to do a residency. Depending on the state, you only need a bare minimum amount of postgraduate year (many just require 1) in order to get an unrestricted license to practice medicine. However, it is strongly advised that you finish the residency so that you can be board eligible/board certified in a speciality ... this is necessary if you plan to have some sort of hospital priviledges, be a medicaid/medicare provider, be listed as an approved provider for HMO/insurance companies, etc. If you ever get sued, the fact that you are not board certified will definately be used against you in court.

    *yes, there are rare cases where the only physician in the county is not-board certified and the government/insurance company will approve that person to be a provider ... but do you want to be the only physician in a county?

    **many of the old timers (those who didn't do a formal residency) were grandfathered in when various board specialties formed
     
  13. tkim

    tkim 10 cc's cordrazine Physician 10+ Year Member

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    From what I gather, your father graduated at least fifteen years ago, and now you reveal that he never did a residency. Things have changed. A lot.

    I am about to graduate from medical school. *No one* who graduates from medical school *now* can take Step III of the physician licensing exam without doing at least one year of internship. Which means that in order to be *licensed* as a physician, you must complete one year of internship. No license, no practicing medicine.

    Perhaps fifteen years ago, one could get trained as a primary care physician during med school, not do a post-graduate residency and still work as a physician clinically. Not anymore.

    What your father did and what physicians are required to do now are very different. No disrespect to your father, but this is the way it is now.
     
  14. Seger

    Seger 2+ Year Member

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    Yes, it is hard to believe and rare, but it is true. He was accepted a few credits shy of earning his political science degree. It was agreed in his acceptance that he would complete the courses the summer following his first year in medical school, but when the time came, they told him he didn't have to do it.

    After graduation, he did an internship in the Tampa, FL area, and then opened his own medical practice. He is fully LICENSED in the state of Florida. And, like everywhere else, his patients do not give a rats a$$ if he has a bachelor's degree, or where he went to med school, or where/if he did a residency. He provides efficient and effective treatment in a compassionate manner and his patients love him for it.
     
  15. Dr.Inviz

    Dr.Inviz Banned Banned

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    :laugh:

    How naive the posterity may be. All physicians that wish to be licensed must go through a residency and take the Step III.
     
  16. Dr.Inviz

    Dr.Inviz Banned Banned

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    Then again, he opened up his own doc-in-the-box practice, put up "doctor's office" and some initials after the name, and people will automatically assume he's a fully licensed physician who went through a GME.
     
  17. VALSALVA

    VALSALVA sh*t or get off the pot 7+ Year Member

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    Nope...they must only do an internship to be eligible for licensure - as a "general practitioner" - which is why it's incorrect to call a FP doc. by that term.
     
  18. Dr.Inviz

    Dr.Inviz Banned Banned

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    and what does a GP exactly do? Sounds like some outdated term for a FP or IM doctor.
     
  19. tkim

    tkim 10 cc's cordrazine Physician 10+ Year Member

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    Well, there you go: a year of internship *is* the first year of residency, though it's not considered a full residency, and the minimum required to sit for the Step III licensing exam.

    In your previous post, you made it sound like he went straight into practice without doing any post-graduate time.
     
  20. Seger

    Seger 2+ Year Member

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    Thank you.

    We all know rules and regulations change over time. When my grandfather became a physician, does anyone think he had to take Organic Chemistry? No, the concept practically didn't exist. My father did an internship year and became licensed in Florida. Some of the posts are using internship and residency interchangably. I am aware that an internship is a requirement for becoming licensed - but a residency is not.
     
  21. tkim

    tkim 10 cc's cordrazine Physician 10+ Year Member

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    Internship is the first year of post-graduate training, i.e., residency.
     
  22. VALSALVA

    VALSALVA sh*t or get off the pot 7+ Year Member

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    Frankly...they do exactly what an FP does, but typically only in an outpatient setting. GP's do have trouble getting admitting priveleges in some areas of the country and/or certain hospitals.

    If I were wanting to do ambulatory medicine only, I'd seriously consider doing the internship and getting out. Most patients don't care, don't know, or will never ask about your post-grad education.

    I happen to know of 3 GP's that do quite well and gladly transfer care to the local hospitalist group when one of their patients needs inpatient care.
     
  23. VALSALVA

    VALSALVA sh*t or get off the pot 7+ Year Member

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    No. An internship is not a residency. The D.O's have blurred the lines a bit with their tracking internships, but that doesn't change the facts. So, to recap...doing a "traditional internship" (DO) or "transitional year" (MD) is not a residency. If I GP claimed he/she was residency trained, that would imply that they had done a residency and were board eligible or certified - both wrong and misleading.
     
  24. MedStudentWanna

    MedStudentWanna Banned Banned 5+ Year Member

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    You really should make yourself clear. The OP asked if it's possible to just get the medical school pre-reqs without getting a Bachelor's and you were quick to pipe up that it's possible, when in fact, leaving out that your father was only a few credits shy of getting a Bachelor's, which means he didn't just get the medical school pre-reqs, he spent at least three/three and a half years in undergrad.

    Then you say he never did a residency, when in fact, he did an internship and you know good and well that's considered part of the residency. Quit commandeering the language just to be a show-off and go against what the majority knows to be true. All you're doing is giving people false hope that they can be a college drop-out, get into med school, and hang their shingle the day they graduate to make six figures.
     
  25. bigdog8829

    bigdog8829 2+ Year Member

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    Agreed. :thumbup:

    Go to whichever school you like. Take the classes you want and major in whatever you want. The key is to simply succeed.
    Most med students don't know what area of medicine they want to go into.
    MD or DO, worry about that later. You have 4-5 YEARS until that should plague your mind at all.
    I suggest you delete you SDN account bc its just going to get you too worried and apprehensive about a plethera of things that are not as important as your present.
     
  26. VALSALVA

    VALSALVA sh*t or get off the pot 7+ Year Member

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  27. MedStudentWanna

    MedStudentWanna Banned Banned 5+ Year Member

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    Um, an internship is considered part of the residency. Most people match into an internship affiliated with their residency and are called PGY I for a reason. PGY 2 is year two of their residency or the year immediately after internship. You can argue semantics all you want, but you know damn well that an intership IS indeed part of a residency and for someone to say "yeah, but my dad didn't do a residency at all and is a primary care doc" is misleading at best.
     
  28. tkim

    tkim 10 cc's cordrazine Physician 10+ Year Member

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    Please reread my post, I never said that internship is a residency. Intern year is the first year of residency. Can we agree on that?
     
  29. tkim

    tkim 10 cc's cordrazine Physician 10+ Year Member

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    "The Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) no longer uses the term intern, but refers to all postgraduate physicians in training as residents. However, the American Osteopathic Association (AOA) continues to require osteopathic physicians (D.O.'s) to complete an internship before residency."
     
  30. VALSALVA

    VALSALVA sh*t or get off the pot 7+ Year Member

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    Dude...you are so wrong! PGY-I does not imply residency. It doesn't imply anything other than the first year post-graduation. For example, many graduates either scramble into or choose to do a transitional year after graduation. Yes...that is their PGY-I year, but that is no residency! If that same person decided to quit after that transitional year (for whatever reason), they would be eligible for licensure in all 50 states and could "hang their shingles" as a general practitioner.

    I'm done with this...hopefully someone else with more experience can chime in later.
     
  31. VALSALVA

    VALSALVA sh*t or get off the pot 7+ Year Member

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    That is true...they can it a transitional year. It's still not a residency. See my example above.
     
  32. Seger

    Seger 2+ Year Member

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    Could not be further from what my intent truly was. How many residencies are 1 year? The internship is 1 year, and that is the way it has always been explained to me. I am not trying to twist things by "comandeering" the language. As for the pre-reqs vs. bachelor's degree, again I was not trying to mislead anyone. I was only making the point that you do not NEED the degree as a previous poster had suggested.

    I don't think anyone thinks your last statement is true, however, I do think that many people are unaware of anything other than the traditional paths.
     
  33. tkim

    tkim 10 cc's cordrazine Physician 10+ Year Member

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    So, in my first year post-grad, is it wrong to call me a resident?
     
  34. Seger

    Seger 2+ Year Member

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    Look at the second sentence.
     
  35. Seger

    Seger 2+ Year Member

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    I don't think anyone here cares what you call yourself. Use this as an example: I don't want to do a residency. I want to do the minimum number of years possible after graduating medical school to become a licensed physician. What do I do? I do a 1 year internship. If it is now called a 1 year residency, I apologize; but, according to your previous quote, the AOA calls it an internship.
     
  36. VALSALVA

    VALSALVA sh*t or get off the pot 7+ Year Member

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    Depends on what you're going into. I know that my "welcome" letter from my new GME facility referred to me as an "intern" even though I'm doing EM. In my case, I think both "intern" and "first year resident" are correct. But in the context of this thread, someone who's doing a TY either before beginning a PGY-II residency (gas, rads) or because that's all they want to do - I would NOT consider them residents (because what are they residents in??)

    I think the confusion may be stemming from the fact that although the ACGME now refers to ALL PGY's as "residents" (as TKim pointed out) that does not imply that everyone is actually in a residency (people in TY's). What about fellows? According to the ACGME, resident would be a more appropriate label for a fellow- which we all know doesn't really happen.

    Now I'm really done! :)
     
  37. tkim

    tkim 10 cc's cordrazine Physician 10+ Year Member

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    I wish you the very best of luck!
     
  38. tkim

    tkim 10 cc's cordrazine Physician 10+ Year Member

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    Agree. Congrats on Nebraska! I'll be in Buffalo.
     
  39. Dr.Inviz

    Dr.Inviz Banned Banned

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    :laugh:

    Tkim, what residency program did you get in? Any specific advice you may be able to provide from your own personal experience since it would not be out-dated?
     
  40. tkim

    tkim 10 cc's cordrazine Physician 10+ Year Member

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    U Buffalo EM. If you want specific info about the application process or any of the places that I interviewed at, I'd be happy to talk about it. Where do you go to school?
     
  41. Dr.Inviz

    Dr.Inviz Banned Banned

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    Due to the various circumstances at hand, I will be at DCOM for the Fall once I graduate from my UG program in 5 weeks or so. Initially thought I'd scrap the process and take a year to reapply but I'll run with what I have.
     
  42. VALSALVA

    VALSALVA sh*t or get off the pot 7+ Year Member

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    TKim - best wishes in Buffalo. I'm not sure what's worse...lake affect snow or that unrelenting wind that blows across the great plains like an unstoppable force?

    Dr. Inviz - I'll give you some credit...you're a free spirit and you don't have "MS-O" in your avatar! Strong work all around. Oh, and good luck with your studies at DCOM.
     
  43. JasonUD

    JasonUD PGY-I 5+ Year Member

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    A handful of schools, both MD and DO, say you can matriculate if you have atleast 90 credits of your undergrad degree completed. With this said, I have not met anyone in medical school without a BA or BS and it seems that many have Masters and PhDs aswell. I'm sure the 90+ credit people are out there but I haven't met any in our 300 person class at NYCOM. Also think of it this way, if you are against someone with the same grades as you and similar extracurricular activities and life experiences, why would an admissions committee chose you over the person with the degree?

    If you want to get into the game earlier, research some 7 year programs. I know NYCOM has one with NYIT...3 years undergrad and 4 years med school. Just be careful with these programs because what happens if you get to med school and change your mind...you don't want to be stuck with a nothing bachelors degree. You could also figure out a way to attend the undergrad of your choice and just graduate a year early. I did that from the Univ. of Delaware...its tough but it can be done if you're organized enough to sit down with the curriculum and figure out how to do it.

    Go to what ever undergrad school you like the best and think you fit in the best whether its Yale or Uncle Joe's Community College and just kick @$$ with your grades, volunteer, join a bunch of clubs that you enjoy, and suck up to important people so you get good letters of rec.!

    Its really good that you're looking into this stuff this early in your academic career. Just becareful of what you read on this site, theres an equal amount of crap and valuable information and it can be hard to wade through it in the early stages of researching your career.
     
  44. Dr.Inviz

    Dr.Inviz Banned Banned

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    Gracias!
     
  45. spicedmanna

    spicedmanna Moderator Emeritus 7+ Year Member

    You are misinformed.

    Incorrect. Most schools, regardless of MD or DO, will suggest at least 90 semester credits, but will by-in-large prefer at least a Bachelor's degree. There are some students who matriculate with the minimum undergraduate education, but they definitely aren't the norm. Plan on attaining your Bachelor's degree before matriculation.

    MD = DO in actual practice. They are both physicians, and in practice there isn't much difference. Yes, DO's will have training in manipulative medicine, but only a minority ever use it regularly in practice. Physicians, as a rule, practice to a common standard of care. And to answer your second question, you would be able to use OMM/OMT as a Neurologist, in theory, given that OMM focuses on the NEUROmuscloskeletal system. As to what extent, I don't know, since I will start medical school this Fall and don't yet have any experience in this area. In general, I like OMM just for the fact that you learn how to use the "hand scanner" before using the MRI/X-rays and other imaging studies, and you can use manipulation/touch in addition to scripts, if it is indicated. It's very basic medicine.

    No idea about your particular specialty. However, you are correct that DO does require a 1-year internship before residency. There are ways to bypass this, I think. I'm not sure how it all works specifically, but I don't mind doing the extra year, if required. It's just more clinical training...

    Anyway, don't be so concerned about specialty right now. First get into medical school. A great many students change their mind after their clinical rotations 3rd and 4th year. Focus on getting into a good college, doing well in school, rock the MCAT, get good EC's, apply early and broadly, get accepted, then think about COMLEX/USMLE Step I, etc. You get the picture; you have a long way to go.

    Go shadow some doctors, both DO and MD, etc. Ask questions and understand the Osteopathic tradition. An informed choice is the best choice. In my opinion, you will want to attend the best medical program that provides the best fit for your personality and history. Thus, you'll want to do plenty of research on the schools in which you intend to apply; however, there is much time between now and then. Don't worry about it right now. Focus on the more immediate tasks at hand.

    Good luck. :luck:
     
  46. SunshineNYC

    SunshineNYC SunshineNYC 2+ Year Member

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    I think a lot of people have mentioned what is possible... and virtually anything is POSSIBLE, but what is practical? You are starting out really young, and you are lucky that you know what you want to do already. At this stage, if you move forward towards your goal of being a neurologist, the most practical and easiest way of going about this is to attend a well-respected 4-year college (one of California's many reputible state schools would be fine). While there, maybe major in neuroscience, get excellent grades and especially excellent grades in your pre-med required courses. Maybe take a year off to do some research or work in a related field and gain some medical experience while studying really hard for your MCAT, which you of course will score fantastically on. Then apply to allopathic schools that are maybe associated with a hospital that is especially known for its neurology department, so that you can make connections there and do really well and maybe you will be accepted into their really great neurology program for your residency. That would be the easiest and most practical way to go about it.

    Sure, there are other ways, but this is probably the easiest. Hope that helps.

    One more thing. If you really want to stand out from other traditional students, in addition to dedicating yourself to all things medical, pursue a hobby that is totally unrelated, but that interests you. Show dedication to it and maybe take on a leadership position if possible. Good luck to you.
     
  47. scpod

    scpod Physician Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    Not true in ALL states. Alaska, Connecticut, Illinois, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Utah and Washington ALL require two years of post graduate training for US graduates to receive a medical license. Nevada requires three years. Most states, however, require foreign grads to do three years. In addition, Florida, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio and Texas require either two years or 60 credit hours of undergrad education as well.
     
  48. DocBR

    DocBR MS-3 5+ Year Member

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    You were given bad information. For DO schools you have the same requirements as MD schools, you MUST complete 90 hours of undergraduate work, 30 of which are upper division. You must also complete the pre-reqs.

    The undergrad requirements (with the exception of a few Bachelor/grad combo schools) are the same. That rule is also more of a safety net for the few (very few) exceptions where people get in without 115+ credit hours.
     
  49. tkim

    tkim 10 cc's cordrazine Physician 10+ Year Member

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    I totally forgot about this, as it figured into my rank list as to when I could moonlight. Here's the site:

    http://www.fsmb.org/usmle_eliinitial.html

    Nevada bites the hardest - no license for 3 years!
     
  50. Pansit

    Pansit 5+ Year Member

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    nice....very informative, thank you
     
  51. GreenShirt

    GreenShirt 10+ Year Member

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    Feb 6, 2007
    LOL! The "hand scanner"...I'm going to have to borrow that one.:)
     

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