I just realized that getting into med school is a lot of work

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like honestly, who else besides pre-meds has to keep their grades top-notch, jump through endless hoops in regards to research and ECs, and go through this LOR nonsense?
 

osumc2014

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like honestly, who else besides pre-meds has to keep their grades top-notch, jump through endless hoops in regards to research and ECs, and go through this LOR nonsense?
Hardest thing ever! Worth it tho...
 

junkct

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like honestly, who else besides pre-meds has to keep their grades top-notch, jump through endless hoops in regards to research and ECs, and go through this LOR nonsense?
you forgot to mention the MCAT aka the beast of all beasts


Rumor has it that the MCAT got the best of Chuck Norris :thumbdown:
 

Zoom-Zoom

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Yeah the med school process makes getting into law and business schools look like a cakewalk. Sure, Harvard will always be hard to get into, but as you descend the rankings the competition drops precipitously. Compare, for example, the failure rate at your average law vs. med school for the Bar vs. the USMLE.
 

BlueElmo

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you forgot to mention the MCAT aka the beast of all beasts


Rumor has it that the MCAT got the best of Chuck Norris :thumbdown:
You too? I heard MCAT actually roundhouse kicked Chuck Norris in the face. Scary.:scared:
 

osumc2014

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Yeah the med school process makes getting into law and business schools look like a cakewalk. Sure, Harvard will always be hard to get into, but as you descend the rankings the competition drops precipitously. Compare, for example, the failure rate at your average law vs. med school for the Bar vs. the USMLE.
Would you mind enlightening us?
 

Zoom-Zoom

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like honestly, who else besides pre-meds has to keep their grades top-notch, jump through endless hoops in regards to research and ECs, and go through this LOR nonsense?
I'll add that the application process itself is a total beast.
 

Zoom-Zoom

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Would you mind enlightening us?
OOOOOOOO....you calling me out? It's so on. :laugh:

I don't have time for empirical data so you'll have to settle with Wikipedia. Take, for example, Santa Clara University School of Law, which is #31 in the nation in bar passage rankings with an 82.1% passage rate. U.S. Allopathic med schools, by comparison, average in the very high 90's for the USMLE. The fact that there's even a "bar exam passage ranking" to begin with shows something.

Of course, it could be argued that the bar is harder than the USMLE. I'm not making that argument, but it could be argued.
 

osumc2014

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OOOOOOOO....you calling me out? It's so on. :laugh:

I don't have time for empirical data so you'll have to settle with Wikipedia. Take, for example, Santa Clara University School of Law, which is #31 in the nation in bar passage rankings with an 82.1% passage rate. U.S. Allopathic med schools, by comparison, average in the very high 90's for the USMLE. The fact that there's even a "bar exam passage ranking" to begin with shows something.

Of course, it could be argued that the bar is harder than the USMLE. I'm not making that argument, but it could be argued.
That is true...probably why not all law school grads can find a job even
 

ChubbyChaser

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That is true...probably why not all law school grads can find a job even
I have two brothers who are both lawyers (sad I know). One likes to tell the "joke": What do you call a law student who graduates in the bottom of his class? Unemployed. What do you call a med student who graduates in the bottom of his class? Doctor.

When they asked me about the MCAT, I told them that it's sort of like the LSAT, only you actually have to know stuff.;)
 

apumic

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like honestly, who else besides pre-meds has to keep their grades top-notch, jump through endless hoops in regards to research and ECs, and go through this LOR nonsense?

PhD grad school applicants, PA applicants, clinical psych (PhD/PsyD) applicants... heck, to a degree, even law school applicants...need I continue?
 

xmsr3

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yeah but a survey conducted in 80 countries found that in all of them the profession most sought in a spouse was doctor.

So those other professions may go through hell to get into grad school but only pre-meds can be assured that once in, not only do we have sweet lives in terms of financial and material security, but we can also get laid like nobody's business;)
 

Suenya

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Getting in to medical school isn't easy, but there are other programs that are harder overall.

Clinical psych doctoral programs, as just one example that I know alot about personally.
 
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PhD grad school applicants, PA applicants, clinical psych (PhD/PsyD) applicants... heck, to a degree, even law school applicants...need I continue?
PhD students do not have to tackle the MCAT
PA applicants do not have to tackle the MCAT
you got me on clinical psych though.
 

SteinUmStein

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PhD students do not have to tackle the MCAT
PA applicants do not have to tackle the MCAT
you got me on clinical psych though.
PhD students may not have to take the MCAT, I wouldn't tell a grad student to his/her face that med school is harder, because there's a lot they go through that I never want to deal with. (Comps, publish-or-die mentality of labs, taking 6 or 7 years to graduate, etc.) At least we know with 99% certainty that we'll graduate in 4 years if we so choose.
 

dr seuss

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OOOOOOOO....you calling me out? It's so on. :laugh:

I don't have time for empirical data so you'll have to settle with Wikipedia. Take, for example, Santa Clara University School of Law, which is #31 in the nation in bar passage rankings with an 82.1% passage rate. U.S. Allopathic med schools, by comparison, average in the very high 90's for the USMLE. The fact that there's even a "bar exam passage ranking" to begin with shows something.

Of course, it could be argued that the bar is harder than the USMLE. I'm not making that argument, but it could be argued.
That stat on wikipedia is misleading. Santa Clara is #31 for Schools' Pass Rate vs. State's Avg. Bar Pass Rate, but is only #152 out of 185 for pass rate.

I don't know if you just randomly picked Santa Clara, but the fact that it is in California is why the pass rate is so low. Stanford is the #3 ranked law school in the country but is only #64 in pass rate at 88.7%. The law school for the state school where I go isn't very hard to get into, but it has over a 95% pass rate.
 

redlight

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actually i hear its much harder to get into a vet school
 

redlight

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That stat on wikipedia is misleading. Santa Clara is #31 for Schools' Pass Rate vs. State's Avg. Bar Pass Rate, but is only #152 out of 185 for pass rate.

I don't know if you just randomly picked Santa Clara, but the fact that it is in California is why the pass rate is so low. Stanford is the #3 ranked law school in the country but is only #64 in pass rate at 88.7%. The law school for the state school where I go isn't very hard to get into, but it has over a 95% pass rate.
wow what makes the bar so difficult in cali?
 

dr seuss

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wow what makes the bar so difficult in cali?
The bar is different in each state, but I don't know why it is harder there. Don't feel bad for them, though. The bar passages for Berkeley, Stanford, and UCLA are around 85-86%, but the percent with jobs after 9 months is 99, 98.5, and 97.8. All higher than the only two schools with a 100% pass rate.
 

Myuu

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actually i hear its much harder to get into a vet school
I have also heard that. I'd believe it, given the substantially number of schools and greater numerical standards for admission.
 

ensuii

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Yeah the med school process makes getting into law and business schools look like a cakewalk. Sure, Harvard will always be hard to get into, but as you descend the rankings the competition drops precipitously. Compare, for example, the failure rate at your average law vs. med school for the Bar vs. the USMLE.
I'm pretty sure the USMLE step 1 pass rate is like...95%. :-X Not sure about the bars tho. I think there are a lot of fields similar to the med school path but there's nothing that exactly lives up to it. The funny thing is, from what I've heard, the undergrad application process is probably the easiest stage in the path towards becoming a doctor.

Make no mistake about it, when you chose to be a doctor, you'll have to deal with this nonsense to get in to medical school, work like a dog for 4 years, get treated like a bitch through your residency and then, when you finally become an attending, the reward is being able to pay off your student loans and finally being able to settle down in your early 30s/late 20s if you're a traditional app. It's a pretty huge investment for the sake of career. Most of my friends are buying houses and going to Vegas every other month and sometimes I think: "What if... :-(". But in general I'm still happy with my choices thus far :)

PhD's get paid (a lot of them anyway), dentists don't have residency and neither do PA's I don't think (not sure).
 

BlueElmo

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I'm pretty sure the USMLE step 1 pass rate is like...95%. :-X Not sure about the bars tho. I think there are a lot of fields similar to the med school path but there's nothing that exactly lives up to it. The funny thing is, from what I've heard, the undergrad application process is probably the easiest stage in the path towards becoming a doctor.

Make no mistake about it, when you chose to be a doctor, you'll have to deal with this nonsense to get in to medical school, work like a dog for 4 years, get treated like a bitch through your residency and then, when you finally become an attending, the reward is being able to pay off your student loans and finally being able to settle down in your early 30s/late 20s if you're a traditional app. It's a pretty huge investment for the sake of career. Most of my friends are buying houses and going to Vegas every other month and sometimes I think: "What if... :-(". But in general I'm still happy with my choices thus far :)

PhD's get paid (a lot of them anyway), dentists don't have residency and neither do PA's I don't think (not sure).
Of course you're happy. Because at the end of the day when it's all said and done, you are going to be a medical doctor.:)
 

Food

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I was really happy that the MCAT is a part of the process. It's the only thing I was ever good at, and comfortable working on. Honestly - the volunteering and shadowing are what intimidated me for a while. Also getting good grades. Oh well, at least I've matured somewhat since then.
 

unsung

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PhD students do not have to tackle the MCAT
PA applicants do not have to tackle the MCAT
you got me on clinical psych though.
Oh please, getting into a PhD program is a zillion times harder than preparing to take the MCAT and taking the MCAT. Also, I'm not sure why clinical psych is counted separately. Getting a clinical psych PhD slot is at least as hard as getting a seat in med school. Let's not forget vet school, which is *actually* the toughest to get in from a # of applicants : # of seats perspective.
 

Blesbok

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Oh please, getting into a PhD program is a zillion times harder than preparing to take the MCAT and taking the MCAT. Also, I'm not sure why clinical psych is counted separately. Getting a clinical psych PhD slot is at least as hard as getting a seat in med school. Let's not forget vet school, which is *actually* the toughest to get in from a # of applicants : # of seats perspective.
And yet the average objective statistics are higher for those entering medical school, so despite a high number of applicants it is still easier to get into.
 

vinniekan

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Oh please, getting into a PhD program is a zillion times harder than preparing to take the MCAT and taking the MCAT. Also, I'm not sure why clinical psych is counted separately. Getting a clinical psych PhD slot is at least as hard as getting a seat in med school. Let's not forget vet school, which is *actually* the toughest to get in from a # of applicants : # of seats perspective.
That might be so (I emphasize on might be), but most PhD friends I know, in top notch chemical engineering programs (i.e. UMich), and chemistry programs, their first few years, go in at 10am, leave at 5pm, and when you need some time off? you take it whenever you want. And the only reason that PhD programs take so damn long is because people like to take their time. I have a friend who told me that if she actually work 40 hours a week in her program like people do at normal day to day jobs, she would finish her program (engineering) in 3 years, easily.

So for what it's worth
 

BlueElmo

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And yet the average objective statistics are higher for those entering medical school, so despite a high number of applicants it is still easier to get into.
Agreed. The vet applicants are not as qualified in terms of grades as med school applicants.
 

Food

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Oh please, getting into a PhD program is a zillion times harder than preparing to take the MCAT and taking the MCAT. Also, I'm not sure why clinical psych is counted separately. Getting a clinical psych PhD slot is at least as hard as getting a seat in med school. Let's not forget vet school, which is *actually* the toughest to get in from a # of applicants : # of seats perspective.
This is hilarious. The difficulty of getting a seat is directly related to the competition for that seat. Try and convince me that there is just as much competition for a clinical psych PhD or Vet school as there is for Med school.
 

Food

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Oh please, getting into a PhD program is a zillion times harder than preparing to take the MCAT and taking the MCAT. Also, I'm not sure why clinical psych is counted separately. Getting a clinical psych PhD slot is at least as hard as getting a seat in med school. Let's not forget vet school, which is *actually* the toughest to get in from a # of applicants : # of seats perspective.
Now, I will agree that for me to try to get a chemistry PhD fellowship at Harvard would be more difficult than for me to get into my state medical school. But based purely on the degree, I don't think so. Simply put, more people are willing to fight for an MD seat than for a PhD slot. Just look at the number of applications for MD seats at most schools.
 

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Now, I will agree that for me to try to get a chemistry PhD fellowship at Harvard would be more difficult than for me to get into my state medical school. But based purely on the degree, I don't think so. Simply put, more people are willing to fight for an MD seat than for a PhD slot. Just look at the number of applications for MD seats at most schools.
This # is slanted as many people apply to 10 schools. I bet many PhD candidates don't apply to nearly as many schools.

So the # of slots per applicant is a bit slanted.
 

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Agreed. The vet applicants are not as qualified in terms of grades as med school applicants.
Lets be honest, MD is tougher than becoming a Vet.

No matter what the #s say.

#s can be skewed to say what you want.

Plus the GRE is much simpler than the MCAT.
 

redlight

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i might have to take back what i said about vet school..

dont some medical schools have acceptance rates under 3%?

wtf!!!!!!

thats so ridiculous
 

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That might be so (I emphasize on might be), but most PhD friends I know, in top notch chemical engineering programs (i.e. UMich), and chemistry programs, their first few years, go in at 10am, leave at 5pm, and when you need some time off? you take it whenever you want. And the only reason that PhD programs take so damn long is because people like to take their time. I have a friend who told me that if she actually work 40 hours a week in her program like people do at normal day to day jobs, she would finish her program (engineering) in 3 years, easily.

So for what it's worth

Ph.Ds are a give and take. People may have control over their schedule; but 99% of the time they have 1% control over their experiments. They have to go with the flow. Ex: 1 year worth of experimentation on a project may lead no where (I know of atleast 3 ppl who had to deal w/ this). What do you do? Dump the project and move on. Can't get a thesis out of something that is dead end.
 

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i might have to take back what i said about vet school..

dont some medical schools have acceptance rates under 3%?

wtf!!!!!!

thats so ridiculous
Well, when a giant chunk of the pre-med population applies to you and you also happen to have high standards, you get itty bitty acceptance rates.:thumbup:
 

Naijaba

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like honestly, who else besides pre-meds has to keep their grades top-notch, jump through endless hoops in regards to research and ECs, and go through this LOR nonsense?
No kidding, five or six years ago they added the BME major to the school of engineering. Guess which division of engineering had the highest graduation GPAs? - BME

I don't think BME is extremely easier than CEE, CE, AE, or ME, I just think the students HAVE to be more competitive to go to med school.
 

bunnity

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Agreed. The vet applicants are not as qualified in terms of grades as med school applicants.
This has been debated a million times on here, but just so you know, most vet schools require more upper-level pre-req's. Almost all require biochem and calc, as well as some combination of immunology, animal nutrition, micro, genetics, etc. So the difference in average matriculant GPA's (3.6 versus 3.5) could probably be attributed to the more difficult classes required of pre-vets.

There is also a much bigger requirement in terms of clinical hours. I had 500 hours of veterinary experience and that's considered pretty low.

I will agree that the MCAT is probably harder than the GRE, although if you hate the verbal stuff you're in trouble on the GRE because it's half your score.

Really though, it's very hard to compare because all the vet schools except Western give heavy preference to in-state students and have a certain amount of seats reserved for them. In medical admissions you have the option of private schools but that's pretty much limited to Western for vet school. A lot of schools accept very few out of state (Georgia accepts one student). So your odds really depend on where you live and if your state has a vet school. Because many schools accept so few out of state and because the pre-req's vary widely between schools (besides the regular bio/chem/physics), most people only apply to a few schools. So that's another factor. It doesn't really matter; getting into either vet or med school is an accomplishment, it just annoys me when people throw out the GPA thing and make blanket statements about it.
 

BerlinDude

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PhD students do not have to tackle the MCAT
PA applicants do not have to tackle the MCAT
you got me on clinical psych though.
Uh, have you tried taking a GRE subject test?

The MCAT isn't that hard, it's a lot of breadth and no depth.
 

metallica81788

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This has been debated a million times on here, but just so you know, most vet schools require more upper-level pre-req's. Almost all require biochem and calc, as well as some combination of immunology, animal nutrition, micro, genetics, etc. So the difference in average matriculant GPA's (3.6 versus 3.5) could probably be attributed to the more difficult classes required of pre-vets.

There is also a much bigger requirement in terms of clinical hours. I had 500 hours of veterinary experience and that's considered pretty low.

I will agree that the MCAT is probably harder than the GRE, although if you hate the verbal stuff you're in trouble on the GRE because it's half your score.

Really though, it's very hard to compare because all the vet schools except Western give heavy preference to in-state students and have a certain amount of seats reserved for them. In medical admissions you have the option of private schools but that's pretty much limited to Western for vet school. A lot of schools accept very few out of state (Georgia accepts one student). So your odds really depend on where you live and if your state has a vet school. Because many schools accept so few out of state and because the pre-req's vary widely between schools (besides the regular bio/chem/physics), most people only apply to a few schools. So that's another factor. It doesn't really matter; getting into either vet or med school is an accomplishment, it just annoys me when people throw out the GPA thing and make blanket statements about it.
+1000
Everything you say is spot on - I have about 50 more pre-vet friends than pre-med friends. Barely anyone gets in on their first try, and that's if you have a state school.
The only thing I think is easier about the vet school process than the med school process is getting clinical job experience. Almost anyone can get a job at a vet clinic and eventually do cool stuff to animals, but you could never do stuff like that to humans. I have had some serious problems getting clinical experience personally (I know a lot of people haven't), mostly because you need "licenses and stuff" to work with people. I don't have time to get licenses.
 

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Hey, it's a long hard road I understand. But I'm currently in a social fraternity, have a g/f, doing research and still maintaining a relatively high GPA.

In the end, it's all about time management. If you want to be a pre-med and yet still have a social life, you better learn how to time manage and more importantly, stick to your plan like gorilla grip.
 

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i might have to take back what i said about vet school..

dont some medical schools have acceptance rates under 3%?

wtf!!!!!!

thats so ridiculous
yeah -- vet school was my first dream...like if i was driving down a narrow mountainside road and there was a kitten ahead in the distance crossing the road, and a homeless person sitting on the right side of the road...and i had to choice to either swerved to the left and crash into the railing and plummet to my death down the jagged mountainside, or swerve to my right and kill the homeless person, or just keeping going straight and kill the kitten...i would defintley swerve right -- :D

butttt not only is it the hard to get in but i read that the average pay is like 60-90k a yr...basically you dont really make $$ unless you own your own clinic...or are like a large animal vet ...or have been doing it for 1,000 yrs; and you go to school the same amount of time as a MD.. im not all about $$ but i wanted to be able to at least pay off my school debt! ...and buy my own ranch :love:
 
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bunnity

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You have a point about the salary thing. If you'd be happy doing either, human medicine is definitely the wiser financial choice.

yeah -- vet school was my first dream...like if i was driving down a narrow mountainside road and there was a kitten ahead in the distance crossing the road, and a homeless person sitting on the right side of the road...and i had to choice to either swerved to the left and crash into the railing and plummet to my death down the jagged mountainside, or swerve to my right and kill the homeless person, or just keeping going straight and kill the kitten...i would defintley swerve right --
lol, don't put that in your personal statement :)
 

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I think being a vet would be pretty cool. I'd love to be a vet doctor for big cats and stuff like that. If I had a second chance to have a fresh start from my undergrad university (and even high school), I'd take that route.