I never understood the loss of empathy during medical training. Until now.

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DermViser said:
Yes, but my point is you're recommending that premeds and incoming med students concentrate only on the financial paycheck as a motivator. You think that's a good idea?
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Sure. It's better to be motivated by reality than by whimsical ideas.
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circulus vitios said:
I'm aiming for non/barely competitive specialties that prioritize lifestyle. I'd sooner self-immolate than subject myself to the **** show that is surgery or inpatient IM.
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Hospitalist work isn't all that bad if you are a part of a good group. I know a lot of people that love the 7 on/7 off life. Working at a hospital with good social workers, a PA to assist you in dealing with the grunt work, and having nocturnists really makes a difference though- my hospitalist friends have a pretty good gig overall.
 
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circulus vitios said:
Sure. It's better to be motivated by reality than by whimsical ideas.
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I would make the argument that if the ONLY thing that motivates you in medicine is the paycheck, you'll only be happy on payday but hate your job, which makes you more likely to make mistakes, and end up killing someone.
 
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Mad Jack said:
Hospitalist work isn't all that bad if you are a part of a good group. I know a lot of people that love the 7 on/7 off life. Working at a hospital with good social workers, a PA to assist you in dealing with the grunt work, and having nocturnists really makes a difference though- my hospitalist friends have a pretty good gig overall.
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Yeah, I've heard about hospitalist jobs. I think it would make IM enjoyable but I'm not 100% sure.
 
Mad Jack said:
Hospitalist work isn't all that bad if you are a part of a good group. I know a lot of people that love the 7 on/7 off life. Working at a hospital with good social workers, a PA to assist you in dealing with the grunt work, and having nocturnists really makes a difference though- my hospitalist friends have a pretty good gig overall.
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I bet they enjoy their 7 days off, more than their 7 days on.
 
Birdstrike said:
Thanks "doctor." When you find a smell proof one of those, please let me know, you know, "stat."
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Then wear 2 or 3 on top of each other. Point is in you're in a fully outpatient specialty with good lifestyle. Hardly something to complain about.
 
Lel, what sucks about med school doesn't have to do with patients like the lady said, it's trying (and failing, in my case) to shove a phonebook of crap in your head every 2 weeks.

Just had a quiz on random clinical cases (got around 90%) or so, the class is going to the bars and clubs and parties these next few days, but I'll be using the time to study Nephrology.
 
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Arkangeloid said:
Lel, what sucks about med school doesn't have to do with patients like the lady said, it's trying (and failing, in my case) to shove a phonebook of crap in your head every 2 weeks.

Just had a quiz on random clinical cases (got around 90%) or so, the class is going to the bars and clubs and parties these next few days, but I'll be using the time to study Nephrology.
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Nicely done :) take a break and have some fun!!
 
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DermViser said:
So then how would one go about getting "realistic" expectations?
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You can't. It's not possible for the typical person of medical school admissions age to have expectations that are realistic. It's just one of those things you go through and you can't really understand it until you do. People that are so naive like this student in the article where they're like " I'm gonna cure cancer and ride a unicorn to work and my life's going to be great," they just aren't logical or objective enough to successfully qualify a future situation. If the avg student can't(let's call them half naive), then I have no idea how these princesses(full on naive) could even come close.
 
PL198 said:
You can't. It's not possible for the typical person of medical school admissions age to have expectations that are realistic. It's just one of those things you go through and you can't really understand it until you do. People that are so naive like this student in the article where they're like " I'm gonna cure cancer and ride a unicorn to work and my life's going to be great," they just aren't logical or objective enough to successfully qualify a future situation. If the avg student can't(let's call them half naive), then I have no idea how these princesses(full on naive) could even come close.
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So then with that logic, no one can have realistic expectations until it's too late to escape. Yet with dentistry, one can easily have realistic expectations. I don't think this student said he wanted to "cure" cancer. No med student these days believes he's going to cure a terminal condition. Read his post again, and see why exactly he lost his/her empathy. It wasn't bc he felt like he couldn't cure something.
 
Arkangeloid said:
Lel, what sucks about med school doesn't have to do with patients like the lady said, it's trying (and failing, in my case) to shove a phonebook of crap in your head every 2 weeks.

Just had a quiz on random clinical cases (got around 90%) or so, the class is going to the bars and clubs and parties these next few days, but I'll be using the time to study Nephrology.
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Good for you Ark! Why not have fun? You can't study all the time (don't know if you are).
 
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DermViser said:
Very interesting article as always: http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/09/never-understood-loss-empathy-medical-training-now.html

I thought it was funny that he went to a medical school that tries to standardize and quantify everything which in turn led to his decreasing empathy and when he went to his school psychologists the felt he was anxious/depressed and it was an internal failure rather than a system failure.

I wonder how much of the empathy lost is school-generated vs. actually not liking medicine. Thoughts?
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THE WHOLE LOSS OF EMPATHY THING MAY JUST BE A NATURAL TRANSITION THAT HAPPENS AS YOU AGE FROM YOUR EARLY 20'S TO YOUR LATE 20'S, REGARLESS IF YOU ARE IN MED SCHOOL.
 
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DermViser said:
So then with that logic, no one can have realistic expectations until it's too late to escape. Yet with dentistry, one can easily have realistic expectations. I don't think this student said he wanted to "cure" cancer. No med student these days believes he's going to cure a terminal condition. Read his post again, and see why exactly he lost his/her empathy. It wasn't bc he felt like he couldn't cure something.
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To your first sentence I pretty much agree except for the escape part. Someone can still leave medicine even after they graduate medical school, it's just going to be extremely costly. If someone truly hates medicine, then 200k of debt on avg isn't honestly that difficult to get rid of if you really want to. It seems pretty clear to me that college students as a whole do not have realistic expectations about their futures, which I think could be seen by the majors a lot of people choose and their expectations for a job in that major. The post just seemed like whining to me about how long and difficult the process is. If we're having this discussion in the current context of world policy, then medicine is literally the most important and thus requires strict training over long periods of time more than anything else(at least in large amounts). People want to prop up that a human life is so valuable and then say that the training to essentially defend that human life shouldn't be ridiculously hard. It's gotta be one or the other, can't be both.
 
EMDO2018 said:
THE WHOLE LOSS OF EMPATHY THING MAY JUST BE A NATURAL TRANSITION THAT HAPPENS AS YOU AGE FROM YOUR EARLY 20'S TO YOUR LATE 20'S, REGARLESS IF YOU ARE IN MED SCHOOL.
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YOU ACTUALLY THINK THAT? REALLY? YOU REALIZE MEDICINE IS A PROFESSION IN WHICH YOU ARE ACTIVELY HELPING OTHERS RIGHT?
 
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PL198 said:
To your first sentence I pretty much agree except for the escape part. Someone can still leave medicine even after they graduate medical school, it's just going to be extremely costly. If someone truly hates medicine, then 200k of debt on avg isn't honestly that difficult to get rid of if you really want to. It seems pretty clear to me that college students as a whole do not have realistic expectations about their futures, which I think could be seen by the majors a lot of people choose and their expectations for a job in that major. The post just seemed like whining to me about how long and difficult the process is. If we're having this discussion in the current context of world policy, then medicine is literally the most important and thus requires strict training over long periods of time more than anything else(at least in large amounts). People want to prop up that a human life is so valuable and then say that the training to essentially defend that human life shouldn't be ridiculously hard. It's gotta be one or the other, can't be both.
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Yes, you are correct. One can leave medicine after medical school, but they will have nearly six figures in debt, without a proportional salary to actually pay off principal and accrued interest, after which lenders will come a knocking expecting you to start making payments to where you would never be able to amass assets for retirement, own a house, have a family, etc.

LOL at you talking about college students - you're 21!!! :lol::lol::lol:
 
DermViser said:
Good for you Ark! Why not have fun? You can't study all the time (don't know if you are).
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Heh, I don't. I tried in Pulm, but I couldn't do it, I had instances where my eyes glazed over and my brain wouldn't process anything.

In any case, I did do some gaming and I will be exercising soon, then back to da books.

Also, hilarious quote from one of my school's SDNers I heard today: "Man, Allo has become almost as craptacular as Preallo."

:(
 
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Wait what? I thought it was all like get money cash hoez or something. Who said anything about helping peoples?!
 
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DermViser said:
Yes, you are correct. One can leave medicine after medical school, but they will have nearly six figures in debt, without a proportional salary to actually pay off principal and accrued interest, after which lenders will come a knocking expecting you to start making payments to where you would never be able to amass assets for retirement, own a house, have a family, etc.

LOL at you talking about college students - you're 21!!! :lol::lol::lol:
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life's tough. the bolded are all choices.
 
fancymylotus said:
Wait what? I thought it was all like get money cash hoez or something. Who said anything about helping peoples?!
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That's what its about for guys, all you have to do to pick up lay girls as a med student is wear a shirt that has "whatever college of medicine" and girls will find a reason to strike up a conversation with you, usually ending with the question "are you a med student?" And then you get the number.
 
EMDO2018 said:
That's what its about for guys, all you have to do to pick up lay girls as a med student is wear a shirt that has "whatever college of medicine" and girls will find a reason to strike up a conversation with you, usually ending with the question "are you a med student?" And then you get the number.
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Yeah, the reverse works too, I get a lot of med guys who are suddenly super interested when they find out I'm a dentist whose been out a few years. I am NOT your sugar mama! :rage:
 
Speaking about allo, allopathic is such an dummy term used by osteopathics to refer to the regular curriculum.
is the founder of sdn DO by any chance?
 
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EMDO2018 said:
That's what its about for guys, all you have to do to pick up lay girls as a med student is wear a shirt that has "whatever college of medicine" and girls will find a reason to strike up a conversation with you, usually ending with the question "are you a med student?" And then you get the number.
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I think Ark is rubbing off on you.
 
EMDO2018 said:
That's what its about for guys, all you have to do to pick up lay girls as a med student is wear a shirt that has "whatever college of medicine" and girls will find a reason to strike up a conversation with you, usually ending with the question "are you a med student?" And then you get the number.
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I once represented me school colors in public, I had to use violence to deter girls from legally raping me in the spot. It was worse than wearing blue in Compton.
 
fancymylotus said:
Yeah, the reverse works too, I get a lot of med guys who are suddenly super interested when they find out I'm a dentist whose been out a few years. I am NOT your sugar mama! :rage:
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Have you met females in medical school? There's a good reason.
 
Kahreek said:
Speaking about allo, allopathic is such an dummy term used by osteopathics to refer to the regular curriculum.
is the founder of sdn DO by any chance?
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No. Allopathic medicine is a long and well accepted term. Stop trolling.
 
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DermViser said:
No. Allopathic medicine is a long and well accepted term. Stop trolling.
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I am pretty sure if I said my mom, I would be attending allopathic school, she would talk to my dad and they would send me to the army and be like: "enough of your bad friends hippy companies, you have to do something with your life"
 
Arkangeloid said:
Ye, from what I've, med school ladies are glorified club sl*ts on an IV-drip of Adderall and Caffeine that have intelligence commensurate with the ardor with which they go to nightclubs.

As I've said before, to paraphrase Halo: When you go to medical school, you face enemies who have never known defeat, who laugh at your pathetic attempts to survive. This is madness.

Granted, my sampling may be heavily biased because I attend a school with mostly traditional students from affluent families (like me lol). I think at a more diverse school with more nontrads, you might get kinder, more decent people.
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:whoa:

You don't have any non-traditional students in your class? On second thought, that might actually be a good thing.
 
Non trads are definitly cooler, more laid back, more realistic people. Trads tend to be annoying little ultra gunners from super affluent families who have ALWAYS got their way, so yeah I agree with ark here
 
Just for clarification, I'm chain-posting on SDN here as part of my break.

DermViser said:
Wow, that's all?!? No wonder your class is a bunch of self-involved narcissists.
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Wait I just remembered a 3rd one (a responsible, quiet lady who looks younger than her stated age thanks to her obsession with fitness).

In any case, multiple people have noticed this and complained about it. The 3rd years who are taking a year off and are joining our class are unhappy about it, saying that our class is full of uptight "gunners" and generally unsavory people.
 
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Arkangeloid said:
Wait I just remembered a 3rd one (a responsible, quiet lady who looks younger than her stated age thanks to her obsession with fitness).

In any case, multiple people have noticed this and complained about it. The 3rd years who are taking a year off and are joining our class are unhappy about it, saying that our class is full of uptight "gunners" and generally unsavory people.
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Is it just your specific class or is it a trend? Different classes can very greatly in terms of overall student body culture even within the same med school.

I think the ones who take a year off between MS-3 and MS-4 are just happy they don't have to rotate with us in required clerkships as nearly all of MS-4 is elective (and doesn't count towards ranks or go on the MSPE).
 
EMDO2018 said:
Non trads are definitly cooler, more laid back, more realistic people. Trads tend to be annoying little ultra gunners from super affluent families who have ALWAYS got their way, so yeah I agree with ark here
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Aren't you a trad?
 
EMDO2018 said:
Non trads are definitly cooler, more laid back, more realistic people. Trads tend to be annoying little ultra gunners from super affluent families who have ALWAYS got their way, so yeah I agree with ark here
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lol they all have a god complex where they think they have some "life experience" and that makes them superior to regular applicants. because working for some random job making 30k a year for 3 years and then going to medical school gives you so much life experience. I just like people that don't actively try to assert superiority. Every single non-trad in my class has tried to do so.

Seriously watching an environment with bs/mds, trads and non-trads is like animal planet ****. The non-trads think all of the trads are children and they're supposed to guide them through this process , so I'm assuming they think the bs/mds are like morulas or something.
 
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PL198 said:
lol they all have a god complex where they think they have some "life experience" and that makes them superior to regular applicants. because working for some random job making 30k a year for 3 years and then going to medical school gives you so much life experience. I just like people that don't actively try to assert superiority. Every single non-trad in my class has tried to do so.
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While I think having life experience helps in a way with relating with patients and maybe noticing social nuances, I think what annoys traditional premeds in med school, is that non-trads air a moral superiority that all of the trads gunning during preclinical years will get our comeuppance in MS-3, when red carpets will be rolled out for the nontrads due to their impeccable ability to work in teams, problem solve, etc. as stated by Shjanzey. It truly overstates the role of the MS-3, when fitting the hierarchy is imperative and to which non-trads have difficulty doing bc they don't like taking orders from someone younger than they are. It's quite hilarious, if not sad.
 
DermViser said:
While I think having life experience helps in a way with relating with patients and maybe noticing social nuances, I think what annoys traditional premeds in med school, is that non-trads air a moral superiority that all of the trads gunning during preclinical years will get our comeuppance in MS-3, when red carpets will be rolled out for the nontrads due to their impeccable ability to work in teams, problem solve, etc. as stated by Shjanzey. It truly overstates the role of the MS-3, when fitting the hierarchy is imperative and to which non-trads have difficulty doing bc they don't like taking orders from someone younger than they are. It's quite hilarious, if not sad.
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I
 
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I tend to agree with EMDO on non-trads being easier to get along with. None of them have shoved the "I HAVE LIFE EXPERIENCE" down my throat, and they seem to be less gunnerish
 
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