I paid off my student loans and I don't feel like a huge idiot. What's next, invest?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

trailerpark

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
May 27, 2013
Messages
1,397
Reaction score
805
Made my last payment early March before the Covid-19 craziness. I upped my 401K contribution to 15% (company match 6%) to get as close as I can to 19,500 without going over. I wanted to start investing separate from my 401-K after I paid my massive loans/all other debt off and with the stock market low right now, it this seems to be a good time. I watch a lot of Dave Ramsey videos on YouTube and would like a conservative approach to money, but the 3 closest SMART VESTOR PROS he recommends are all 2 hours away. I read another article all about INDEX funds, but no clue where to start? ALLY sent me something in the mail about investing...

What platforms do you guys use or would you steer someone that's new and clueless?
 
SMART VESTOR Pros. Fu*k them. These guys take a massive cut for Dave Ramsey and buy lambo for themselves.


If you can.pdf


Yeah fck those guys, do it yourself and save money. Easiest is to open Vanguard and pick a Target retirement fund, it has cheap index funds and will do all the work for you (cheaply).

Don’t hire anyone to take your money, if you’re smart enough to go to pharmacy school (hey shuttup, lol) you can learn how to invest simply.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN
 
If you enrolled in the "Saver Plan" (high deductible "health plan") you can also max out the Health Savings Account or HSA ($3500 individual/$7000 family). You don't pay federal income tax (and for most states, state income tax if it exists) nor do you pay FICA taxes on HSA contributions. HealthEquity (the HSA administrator) has various Vanguard mutual fund options.

Vanguard for a brokerage acct is fine if you want to stick to their mutual funds or ETFs. I would not trade options on it (LOL) as it is very clunky.
 
Some YouTuber just told me to go to Vanguard and buy VTSAX index fund and consistently put money in it every month. Any reason not to?

How old are you? Or rather, how many years until retirement for you? And is this your only retirement source?

That advice holds well for people in their 20s and early 30s if that is the only open retirement account for them.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN
 
How old are you? Or rather, how many years until retirement for you? And is this your only retirement source?

That advice holds well for people in their 20s and early 30s if that is the only open retirement account for them.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

Early 30s. 140K-ish salary. No debt (with interest paid total 250K-ish student loans/also lots of medical debt). Graduated and put on 10 year repayment and did it in 5 working chain retail. Single with no kids or pets. Renter. Budget $1,700 month (liberal). Bring home $6,200 a month.

I just increased my 401K thru my job from 6% to 15% (to reach $19,500 by years end). Just did 401-K up to the match until I was debt free. Also since I started working I contributed the minimum to the associate stock purchase plan ($70 bucks every 2 weeks) to get the full company match.

This vanguard account would be just a personal type account. I don't want any restrictions on when I could take money out. I want to keep maxing out my 401K thru work and keep buying the cheap ASPP as my only individual stocks purchased and add a Vanguard account to maybe put in 1-2K a month? I have a 2 year emergency fund in ALLY Savings Account and the third year could be my ASPP stocks, although I think of it as my new car fund, eventually.
 
If you enrolled in the "Saver Plan" (high deductible "health plan") you can also max out the Health Savings Account or HSA ($3500 individual/$7000 family). You don't pay federal income tax (and for most states, state income tax if it exists) nor do you pay FICA taxes on HSA contributions. HealthEquity (the HSA administrator) has various Vanguard mutual fund options.

Vanguard for a brokerage acct is fine if you want to stick to their mutual funds or ETFs. I would not trade options on it (LOL) as it is very clunky.

I'm in the lowest deductible plan- the one that costs the most. Unfortunately I need that one, but 40 bucks a week is fine.
 
The safest and most conservative bet it to invest it in the S&P 500 index. You can find etf's that are shares of the S&P 500 for much cheaper than the price of the S&P 500 when you google it. On average you're going to get a 7-10% return per year on what you put in there. The one I've used is stock symbol IVV.

Another option, as others have mentioned, is a mutual fund. Typically those require minimum 2500 to invest. They typically target a specific sector of the market, such as technology, pharmaceutical, bonds, etc. There can be entrance fees or exit fees when you buy or sell specific mutual funds. On top of that the people who run the fund, obviously make a profit. Now this isn't as conservative as you're asking for, but what I've been doing recently is researching the top performing mutual funds. Then I'll look through the fund and find where they allocate all the money for the fund (it'll usually have a break down). Then based on where they allocate their funds, I'll buy individual stocks in those companies instead of investing in the mutual fund essentially cutting out the middle man. I figure if a bunch of people who follow the market way closer than me allocate millions of dollars into these companies, then I should be safe to do so as well.

And lastly if you just wanna loose your money you can always yolo your money on options and puts like the dip$h!@s over on reddit on wall street bets lol.
 
SMART VESTOR Pros. Fu*k them. These guys take a massive cut for Dave Ramsey and buy lambo for themselves.


If you can.pdf

Thanks! I read both of those. Really enjoyed them. You think that advice is different because I'm keeping my maxed out work 401K? Besides with Corona virus it's been doing really well. This new account will be a taxable investment account.
 
Priority in the following order:

1) 401 k: contribute 6% so you would get the company match

2) HSA: max it out

3) 401 k: max out the rest (up to 19.5 k this year)

Including your company match, that is well over $30 k.
 
Priority in the following order:

1) 401 k: contribute 6% so you would get the company match

2) HSA: max it out

3) 401 k: max out the rest (up to 19.5 k this year)

Including your company match, that is well over $30 k.

I did raise my work 401K to 15% to get to 19.5K, but I don't think I have a health plan that gives me an HSA. I have the most expensive plan due to high medical costs.
 
Yes, there is reason not to go 100% equities. Many folks think they can handle the swings but then find themselves losing sleep at a 10%, 20%, or 30% drop. Biggest mistake you can make is taking money out of the market when there is a downturn - that's partly why so many folks lost their retirement savings during the last recession. Having bonds in your portfolio is to help make sure you weather any economic storms without making rash decisions or pulling out of the market completely. Checkout the boglehead guide to investing. If you look in the forums you will see post after post about folks trying to time the market and pulling out at a bad time and failing to get back in. Remember, it is ok to leave some *potential* returns on the table if it helps you sleep at night.
 
Yes, there is reason not to go 100% equities. Many folks think they can handle the swings but then find themselves losing sleep at a 10%, 20%, or 30% drop. Biggest mistake you can make is taking money out of the market when there is a downturn - that's partly why so many folks lost their retirement savings during the last recession. Having bonds in your portfolio is to help make sure you weather any economic storms without making rash decisions or pulling out of the market completely. Checkout the boglehead guide to investing. If you look in the forums you will see post after post about folks trying to time the market and pulling out at a bad time and failing to get back in. Remember, it is ok to leave some *potential* returns on the table if it helps you sleep at night.
Because I will still have my maxed out employer 401K, do you think my individual taxable investment account should have less than the recommended minimum of 20% to 33.3% bonds?
 
And lastly if you just wanna loose your money you can always yolo your money on options and puts like the dip$h!@s over on reddit on wall street bets lol.

I advocate everyone here allocates $5k to dipshat bets for fun, entertainment, and education. Nothing like getting hosed on a put option to humble you, lol.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN
 
Yes, there is reason not to go 100% equities. Many folks think they can handle the swings but then find themselves losing sleep at a 10%, 20%, or 30% drop. Biggest mistake you can make is taking money out of the market when there is a downturn - that's partly why so many folks lost their retirement savings during the last recession. Having bonds in your portfolio is to help make sure you weather any economic storms without making rash decisions or pulling out of the market completely. Checkout the boglehead guide to investing. If you look in the forums you will see post after post about folks trying to time the market and pulling out at a bad time and failing to get back in. Remember, it is ok to leave some *potential* returns on the table if it helps you sleep at night.

Just don’t be a sissy and leave emotion at the door. Done.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN
 
Because I will still have my maxed out employer 401K, do you think my individual taxable investment account should have less than the recommended minimum of 20% to 33.3% bonds?

i can’t answer that for you. But I can say that I’ve been very happy with my 25% in bonds.
 
I did raise my work 401K to 15% to get to 19.5K, but I don't think I have a health plan that gives me an HSA. I have the most expensive plan due to high medical costs.

Do you own a house?
 
Because I will still have my maxed out employer 401K, do you think my individual taxable investment account should have less than the recommended minimum of 20% to 33.3% bonds?

The advantage to a standard taxable brokerage account is the ability to harvest losses for tax purposes, should that happen from time to time.

This sort of goes against the spirit of being a “set it and forget it” boglehead, but it’s automated in roboadvisors such as Wealthfront. I use them for a limited purpose brokerage account and have been happy with that.

Look into tax-free municipal bonds (if that’s what you’re considering) if they live in your taxable account. Avoid real estate funds (and high dividend funds) that shed dividends in a taxable account, those are better in tax sheltered accounts.

Just from eyeballing you’re situation, a roboadvisor like Wealthfront set to a moderate risk profile would be a good option, IMO (mostly for automatic tax harvesting).




Sent from my iPhone using SDN
 
I advocate everyone here allocates $5k to dipshat bets for fun, entertainment, and education. Nothing like getting hosed on a put option to humble you, lol.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN
Actually I totally agree haha except I would recommend more in the 2-3k range. It's actually extremely educational and a better use of your money than to go to these stupid investing seminars. You'll quickly learn that your money is better spent at a casino than messing around in the stock market like that and that you're not in the movies haha.
 
Just don’t be a sissy and leave emotion at the door. Done.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

Better said than done. Thinking about you all, it's not easy even among you considering the job uncertainty as you might be forced to sell if your other income streams are an uncertainty.

Op, I'm not contravening the above advice on portfolio and 401k management. I would though see to the following before I did investing:

1. Have at least a 3 and preferably a 6 month reserve in liquid cash equivalents built up to withstand a sudden loss/slowdown of work.

2. I would evaluate your health care circumstances (medical debt as you know directly is a pain) and buy appropriate insurance. This does not mean High Deductible Plans if you are going be using it (especially if you are going to have child, which definitely warrants better coverage).

3. Have your housing situation settled in terms of a safe and healthy place to live with a landlord who is not crazy in terms of behavior or rent seeking. If this is not possible, pay the money now to find safer housing.

4. Have your vehicle in order. You're starting, so a older used car works. Don't buy the BMW.

5. Take a financial literacy and investing class even if you have to pay for it. Play a couple of simulated portfolios to see what would happen (preferably do one between 2000 and 2008 and don't read history before going through the simulation). Especially learn the intricacies and legal details for option theory before committing money or else you will certainly lose it all by not understanding the rules (there are AI investors that specifically prey on bad option writers).

6. Finally, have a hard accounting done on your and your family's personal expenses. What is sustainable and what is one-off and separate it. If you do not know what you are spending, then investing is not necessarily a good idea as you cannot withstand shocks.


Otherwise, @BMBiology, @confettiflyer , @wagrxm2000 , and @Momus have differing overall theories for optimization, but usually have the same basic line. I too would agree to max 401k, IRA, HSA as a baseline before branching out. But, we forget about those housekeeping basics that are automatic for us but not necessarily covered for starting. My advice is along the lines that I am personally too stupid to beat the market in any sense of fashion, and that most people invest in the market like cattle and are slaughtered as such through some "advisor" which acts as a Judas steer who is there to con stupid people. That is why all my "investments" (in some fashion) are in Treasuries for cash, because I care more about not losing than winning in the market and I live within my means. That doesn't work for most people whose ambition for expenditure is higher than what we have, but it serves me just fine.
 
With everyone's advice I think I will open a Vanguard account and buy

VTSAX (total stock market index fund) (expense ratio 0.04%) 40%
VTIAX (total international stock index fund) (expense ratio 0.11%) 40%
VBTLX (total bond market index fund) (expense ratio 0.05%) 20%

2 questions:

Is 0.11% expense ratio for international too much? Should I just do 80% VTSAX (okay to not invest international?)
When should I buy? It's low today, but with 3K minimum investments should I buy today or wait for it to go lower? VTSAX went from 80 to 60 pretty quick, not unsure how much more it could fall...
 
Otherwise, @BMBiology, @confettiflyer , @wagrxm2000 , and @Momus have differing overall theories for optimization, but usually have the same basic line. I too would agree to max 401k, IRA, HSA as a baseline before branching out. But, we forget about those housekeeping basics that are automatic for us but not necessarily covered for starting. My advice is along the lines that I am personally too stupid to beat the market in any sense of fashion, and that most people invest in the market like cattle and are slaughtered as such through some "advisor" which acts as a Judas steer who is there to con stupid people. That is why all my "investments" (in some fashion) are in Treasuries for cash, because I care more about not losing than winning in the market and I live within my means. That doesn't work for most people whose ambition for expenditure is higher than what we have, but it serves me just fine.

I generally agree. I have a rebuttal (for you and your points).

1) The risk of loss from inflation is just as real and consequential as the risk of loss of principal as a result of partaking in the equities’ risk premium. It’s a different risk, but a risk that tends to be minimized and one that is viewed as far off and not an immediate problem (kind of like looming social security shortfalls and pension shortfalls by states).

2) For you (and others), IMO anyone with a government backed pension should absolutely be in a more aggressive investing stance with their outside money than the average person.

Overall investment portfolios need to have a diversified risk profile, and a fed gov’t pension is equivalent to a treasury bill in terms of risk, so adding more treasury bills advances the risk of inflation loss (while minimizing principal loss)

3) but if anything burns a hole in your stomach or induces chest pains and insomnia, don’t do it.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN
 
I am in my early to mid 30s, so I currently just max out my 401k to the max contribution and solely into the S&P 500. I don't pretend to be an investing guru, and this route has similar or better performance than any other managed fund long term, and it costs way less (like 10x cheaper in fees under my company's 401k plan compared to target date managed funds). Just set it and forget it until you get into your 50s/closer to retirement age.
 
I generally agree. I have a rebuttal (for you and your points).

1) The risk of loss from inflation is just as real and consequential as the risk of loss of principal as a result of partaking in the equities’ risk premium. It’s a different risk, but a risk that tends to be minimized and one that is viewed as far off and not an immediate problem (kind of like looming social security shortfalls and pension shortfalls by states).

2) For you (and others), IMO anyone with a government backed pension should absolutely be in a more aggressive investing stance with their outside money than the average person.

Overall investment portfolios need to have a diversified risk profile, and a fed gov’t pension is equivalent to a treasury bill in terms of risk, so adding more treasury bills advances the risk of inflation loss (while minimizing principal loss)

3) but if anything burns a hole in your stomach or induces chest pains and insomnia, don’t do it.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

I agree. All those points are absolutely true and valid in any time. I advise people to take a more risk-taking investing approach than me, because mine is a loss certainty, just a calculated one rather than a hard downside.

That's my problem with the strategy, but I don't plan on leaving the workforce and that the numbers only work as we out-earn enough to only be worried about hyperinflation. If we enter another late 70s/early 80s hyperinflation, I lose hard. And in the long term, the "missing" gains and an investment strategy loss can be financially the same. I just have that position partially because of 3 (I do not have the nerve and the education I received reinforces it), but also, a hyperinflation situation makes us all equally bankrupt over time, and given that as the risk, it is a certainty that I can accept for myself. I do not disagree with your investing stance for the general person, but it does not work for me. In my own way, I am as extreme as @BMBiology when it comes to a maximal strategy. I just did enough portfolio analysis in my time to be reasonably confident that I would not beat the T-bill wins. And doing the realized gains and losses of TSP accounts (not the paper ones), I definitely have done better sticking with G fund than active management though that has been laughably under inflation.
 
The stock market bull is dead. I would save @ least 1 year for emergency fund. How about saving for a house?
I have 2-3 years emergency fund already. Never wanted to buy a house. My third post above has most of my details. I prefer to buy during a bear market which is here, no?
 
I am in my early to mid 30s, so I currently just max out my 401k to the max contribution and solely into the S&P 500. I don't pretend to be an investing guru, and this route has similar or better performance than any other managed fund long term, and it costs way less (like 10x cheaper in fees under my company's 401k plan compared to target date managed funds). Just set it and forget it until you get into your 50s/closer to retirement age.
No bonds or international?
 
I have 2-3 years emergency fund already. Never wanted to buy a house. My third post above has most of my details. I prefer to buy during a bear market which is here, no?

Not quite yet.

Even without coronavirus, there was an expected slowdown due to no one having the ability to extend credit. The market is all messed up with the mortgage payment suspension. If you can wait a bit, possibly four to five months, I think you will find the market juicier in most places. I would recommend keeping up with Fed reports rather than the realtors one.
 
Not quite yet.

Even without coronavirus, there was an expected slowdown due to no one having the ability to extend credit. The market is all messed up with the mortgage payment suspension. If you can wait a bit, possibly four to five months, I think you will find the market juicier in most places. I would recommend keeping up with Fed reports rather than the realtors one.
Wait a few months to start buying VTSAX or buy a house if I decide to?
 
Wait a few months to start buying VTSAX or buy a house if I decide to?

The house. The mortgage situation is crazy, but when it all shakes out, even investment homes are going to be in for a hard capital call which many cannot make. This certainly is going to be true for jumbo loans. And even medicine is going to have some fun times for the ones who have elective procedures are not going to have a patient load for a while.
 
Grata on paying off your loans. How long did it take you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
No bonds or international?

For my 401k, no. I am about 30 years from retiring, so dunno why I'd bother with anything else other than a cheap index fund for the time being.
 
For my 401k, no. I am about 30 years from retiring, so dunno why I'd bother with anything else other than a cheap index fund for the time being.

Which company and which Index fund(s) you use?
 
Save aside 20% for a house you can comfortably afford if that isn't part of your plan already because those monthly rents are $$$ you'll never see again. At least if you get yourself a home, it'll have value and can also be a separate investment opportunity for you if you wanted it to be.
 
Congratulations on finishing your student loans! It's funny but I am in the exact same boat. Graduated in 2016 and just made my last payment in early March. I also maxed out my 401k and am planning on saving and a bit of investing. Thanks for the info everyone is providing, ill be sure to start on some of the suggestions that have been made 😎 👍.
 
Made my last payment early March before the Covid-19 craziness. I upped my 401K contribution to 15% (company match 6%) to get as close as I can to 19,500 without going over. I wanted to start investing separate from my 401-K after I paid my massive loans/all other debt off and with the stock market low right now, it this seems to be a good time. I watch a lot of Dave Ramsey videos on YouTube and would like a conservative approach to money, but the 3 closest SMART VESTOR PROS he recommends are all 2 hours away. I read another article all about INDEX funds, but no clue where to start? ALLY sent me something in the mail about investing...

What platforms do you guys use or would you steer someone that's new and clueless?

1) Max out 401k to $19,500. YOUR contribution limit is $19,500. The company match can go over. I wind up contributing almost $27,000 annually to 401k after company match. I made this mistake my first few years contributing. I didn't realize that the company match didn't count towards the max. Not sure if you are doing this or not already, just wanted to throw that out there just in case.

2) Dave Ramsey's system is designed to help two things. People with poor impulse control and lining Dave's pockets. The money you spend on paying those financial advisors would be better spent in an account accruing returns. Choose a low cost ratio fund mix. If you want the ultimate set it and forget it, go with a retirement target date fund. It will give you a mix of total market exposure from domestic and international stocks with bonds. The percentage of bonds shifts higher as you age automatically.

I recommend index funds from Vanguard, Schwab, and Fidelity. I personally use Vanguard.
 
Last edited:
1) Max out 401k to $19,500. YOUR contribution limit is $19,500. The company match can go over. I wind up contributing almost $27,000 annually to 401k after company match. I made this mistake my first few years contributing. I didn't realize that the company match didn't count towards the max. Not sure if you are doing this or not already, just wanted to throw that out there just in case.

2) Dave Ramsey's system is designed to help two things. People with poor impulse control and lining Dave's pockets. The money you spend on paying those financial advisors would be better spent in an account accruing returns. Choose a low cost ratio fund mix. If you want the ultimate set it and forget it, go with a retirement target date fund. It will give you a mix of total market exposure from domestic and international stocks with bonds. The percentage of bonds shifts higher as you age automatically.

I recommend index funds from Vanguard, Schwab, and Fidelity. I personally use Vanguard.

Yes I already maxed out my personal 401K with $19,500. I’m going to do a backdoor Roth IRA for 6K. Learned how on YouTube using Vanguard. Need to wait a few days for the funds to hit. Then doing a personal account that I will put in 1K a month, I guess.
 
1) Max out 401k to $19,500. YOUR contribution limit is $19,500. The company match can go over. I wind up contributing almost $27,000 annually to 401k after company match. I made this mistake my first few years contributing. I didn't realize that the company match didn't count towards the max. Not sure if you are doing this or not already, just wanted to throw that out there just in case.

2) Dave Ramsey's system is designed to help two things. People with poor impulse control and lining Dave's pockets. The money you spend on paying those financial advisors would be better spent in an account accruing returns. Choose a low cost ratio fund mix. If you want the ultimate set it and forget it, go with a retirement target date fund. It will give you a mix of total market exposure from domestic and international stocks with bonds. The percentage of bonds shifts higher as you age automatically.

I recommend index funds from Vanguard, Schwab, and Fidelity. I personally use Vanguard.
I don't know what his motive is, but he really gives sound advice. However, his advice applies mainly for people with low-to-medium income.
 
Yes I already maxed out my personal 401K with $19,500. I’m going to do a backdoor Roth IRA for 6K. Learned how on YouTube using Vanguard. Need to wait a few days for the funds to hit. Then doing a personal account that I will put in 1K a month, I guess.

I personally set it to take out 1/26th of the max Roth IRA every 2 weeks. You don't even have to adjust it every year as the limits go up, they do it for you.
 
I personally set it to take out 1/26th of the max Roth IRA every 2 weeks. You don't even have to adjust it every year as the limits go up, they do it for you.

Doesn’t it complicate it more when your traditional IRA has gains before moving it to Roth? The YouTube way had 6K all at once to simplify your IRS form 8606.
 
Doesn’t it complicate it more when your traditional IRA has gains before moving it to Roth? The YouTube way had 6K all at once to simplify your IRS form 8606.


Oh, right, I forgot. I'm the poor person here with the household annual income <$185k. Yeah, do it that way of you do a backdoor.
 
So if I got this right for young single person making 100k:
1) Max 401k
2) Max hsa
3) Pay off student loans
4) Max ira/roth?
5) After that, open vanguard low etf index fund and put $X amount in per month?
6) wait 30 years
7) retire easily with plenty of $$$ to mess around with
 
Top