If I want to eventually go back to California (residency or after residency)...

kevin2400

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Does it matter which school I go to? I'm from Southern California, and I don't mind going anywhere in the country for medical school, but I know I eventually want to go back to California as my family and friends are here, which is important to me, and I don't think my family will be moving out of California anytime soon. I know California only has two DO schools, Western and Touro CA, but some other schools out of state sound very appealing to me, and I'm not sure if it will be a good idea to go to those schools.

Now the question is though, if I happen to want to go to a school out of California, how hard would it be for me to land a residency back in California? If I want to stay in California, would it be better for me to aim for either Western or Touro in gaining connections in California during rotations? Or does it not really matter what med school I go to? If I happen to go out of state for med school, will California residency programs be more willing to take me in seeing that I have family in California (having been born and raised here).

Last question, I don't know if this is the best place to ask this considering this is the pre-med section, but say I can't get a residency in California, and I finish my residency out of state. Would it be easy to find a job in California afterwards? Is the job market in California highly dependent on what school you went to or where you went to residency and its prestige?
 

Anicetus

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SoCal perspective:

California seems to be the oddball when it comes to these rules. A lot of people say it doesn't matter, but I have only heard it DOES matter with California (SoCal specifically).

I feel like I'm getting annoying for saying this, but my best friend's dad and another family member of mine review the apps for the respected residencies they work at. When I informed them about LECOM, they had absolutely no clue what language I was speaking. When I told them I was interested in WesternU, they knew all about it.

These are ACGME residencies. I think for AOA it does not matter, but in the ACGME world, DO schools are not as well known and it becomes more of a regional like looking at the name "Rocky Vista" and wondering if it came from another country, but knowing about Western which is just miles away from the residency sites.

I have not talked to anyone about Touro-CA, though. Edit: The first DO physician I met was an alumni of Touro-CA and he recommended WesternU over it. He didn't seem like the biggest fan of it.
 

Ibn Alnafis MD

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I have a faded memory of an article I've read in the past that mentioned that a large percentage of physicians end up practicing in the same state where they did their residency. Also, it is only logical that your chances of matching into a residency in California will be maximized by attending a medical school in California because you can build a network of connections at the programs that you rotate at.
 
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I feel like I'm getting annoying for saying this, but my best friend's dad and another family member of mine review the apps for the respected residencies they work at. When I informed them about LECOM, they had absolutely no clue what language I was speaking. When I told them I was interested in WesternU, they knew all about it.
I would say this isn't about SoCal, it's about Osteopathy in general -- most MDs seem to think their local DO program(s) is better than the others. When I worked in NYC that's how they felt about NYCOM and NJ, when I worked in Massachusetts, that's how they felt about UNECOM, and now in SoCal, everybody seems to think Western is best and hasn't even heard of most of the others.

I have a faded memory of an article I've read in the past that mentioned that a large percentage of physicians end up practicing in the same state where they did their residency. Also, it is only logical that your chances of matching into a residency in California will be maximized by attending a medical school in California because you can build a network of connections at the programs that you rotate at.
-Practicing in the state you did residency in also has a lot to do with the fact that people go to residency where they want to live in the first place.
-With regards to making connections, you need to look at where students are doing their rotations. All of the Western students who I have rotated with are doing many core clerkships at sites that don't have a residency program (or only have an osteopathic residency program)-- of course they may end up with an LOR from someone who knows the program director where they want to go, but it is not the same benefit as actually rotating with the faculty of a program you hope to apply to in the future. Under such circumstances, many such "connections" are going to have to be through away rotations, and you can do your away rotations in CA regardless of where you go to medical school. So, before considering it to be a benefit, I would find out where the schools send students for rotations and how they pick your site -- if half the sites aren't academic sites and they do it completely by lottery, you might not benefit at all. If they have a home institution with a residency in a field you think you want to pursue, then maybe it's worth it.
 

alpinism

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Depends on the specialty.

For most fields it is easier to match in a CA residency coming from a CA med school. However, it's still entirely possible to get a residency spot there coming from the east coast/midwest (many students do it every year).

Bottom line: If doing residency in CA is very important to you, go to school in CA if possible. Otherwise try to stay out west (AZ, NV, OR).
 
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I feel like I'm getting annoying for saying this, but my best friend's dad and another family member of mine review the apps for the respected residencies they work at. When I informed them about LECOM, they had absolutely no clue what language I was speaking. When I told them I was interested in WesternU, they knew all about it.

These are ACGME residencies. I think for AOA it does not matter, but in the ACGME world, DO schools are not as well known and it becomes more of a regional like looking at the name "Rocky Vista" and wondering if it came from another country, but knowing about Western which is just miles away from the residency sites.
There is truth to this. I would say that Western is known and fairly well respected in Southern CA. I'm sure name recognition can be pretty important when applying to ACGME residencies in CA, and I can see the advantage in that.

Either way, Western holds its own against all of the other OOS DO schools so if you want to practice here, why not enjoy the weather? It's not like any other school is going to make it any easier for you to eventually do residency/practice here anyways.
 
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guylewis

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There is truth to this. I would say that Western is known and fairly well respected in Southern CA. I'm sure name recognition can be pretty important when applying to ACGME residencies in CA, and I can see the advantage in that.

Either way, Western holds its own against all of the other OOS DO schools so if you want to practice here, why not enjoy the weather? It's not like any other school is going to make it any easier for you to eventually do residency/practice here anyways.
That's a bingo. I chose to put my deposit down for Western partly because I want to stay in CA after I graduate. I had to chose it over KCUMB even though both were fantastic schools with stellar reputations and awesome programs.

Here's why going to Western gives you an edge for CA residencies: you will be a graduate from a university who's name and graduates are familiar to hospitals in SoCal. You will be studying at a school that has professors who work at hospitals you want to apply to, so they'll help you out and their letter of rec will mean a lot to those programs. You will be doing rotations at hospitals in SoCal for two years, and your name will be well known in the area after enough time (hopefully youll be more famous than infamous). Other schools can let you rotate in CA for your fourth year, but at western I'll be rotating for two years at least in the area (3 years if I get lucky and land the OMM fellowship). I believe these are the reasons why 90% of Western grads get residency matches in California. Just my .02
 
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OP, also keep in mind that you're not going to get into every school you apply to. I have above average stats for pretty much every DO school and I didn't even get an ii from Touro CA and half of the other schools I applied to. In fact, I felt very lucky getting an ii from Western.

For now, focus on learning more about the schools you are interested in and apply to as many as you can. You will come across schools out of CA that you will really feel at home at and you never know what might happen. Good luck!
 

pattr

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Touro ca does have some regional recognition in NorCal but it's definitely still building it's "brand," and it's not known in NorCal to the extent that western is in SoCal. WesternU is actually pretty recognized in LA and San Bernardino counties, and it's been around since 1977 so they do have a certain established brand.
 

cabinbuilder

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You can do med school and residency anywhere in the country. It will not affect your getting hired on the job in California when you are done. All you have to say to an employer is you are from California and expect to stay there long term and be board certified. That's all they want to know. If you have local ties due to family then you should have no problem getting the job of your choice.
 
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hallowmann

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With regards to getting a residency in SoCal, it only stands to reason that going to a school regionally close to where you want to match/practice is better than not. So in that regard, Western is your best bet, and any places in the southwest would be next. Name recognition in SoCal is big for Western because obviously the majority of Western graduates probably apply to match in SoCal or CA in general.

Now, all that said, there are a ton of CA DO students at other schools across the country, and each year many of them succeed in matching into CA residencies. This illustrates the fact that its very possible to match pretty much anywhere (broad location-wise). Looking at my school's match list, there are consistently matches in CA, which makes sense, because there are some CA residents in the class. The numbers aren't exactly equal, because I know some people who have flat out told me they don't want to go back to CA for residency, and would rather go somewhere like NYC instead.

With regards to doing residency outside of CA and coming back to get a job in CA, it doesn't matter where you do your residency. Sure the more famous your residency is, the easier it will be to get a job anywhere, but that doesn't tie you into a region or make getting a job in any broad area particularly harder or easier. In other words, cabinbuilder's post is on the money.
 
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Does the name recognition aspect apply to other well known schools? I'm 75% sure I'm going to be attending MSUCOM this year (accepted already, just waiting on some other top choice schools), and I would also like to come back for residency.
 
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If you want to practice in California, go to a California school. A majority of our matches at TUCOM-CA are in California. Those is because California programs know us, and also we have contracts with many hospitals for clerkships.

Here's the match list for reference: http://admissions.tu.edu/_resources/TUCOM_California_Match_Results.xls
Going to a California MD school will clearly increase one's chances of getting a residency in CA. This also holds true for out of state MD schools. California is not a DO friendly state.

Particularly if you go to a big name out of state MD school, I would not see any issues getting a residency in California.
 
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pattr

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Going to a California MD school will clearly increase one's chances of getting a residency in CA. This also holds true for out of state MD schools. California is not a DO friendly state.

Particularly if you go to a big name out of state MD school, I would not see any issues getting a residency in California.
what kind of advice is this/where is this coming from... have you gone through the match or are you doing so currently? i mean granted going to an MD school will help you no matter what but how can you make these blanket statements about California and DO's?
 
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what kind of advice is this/where is this coming from... have you gone through the match or are you doing so currently? i mean granted going to an MD school will help you no matter what but how can you make these blanket statements about California and DO's?
Seth Joo doesn't seem to have much first-hand knowledge of DO schools. His Ivy League fetish is amusing.
 
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what kind of advice is this/where is this coming from... have you gone through the match or are you doing so currently? i mean granted going to an MD school will help you no matter what but how can you make these blanket statements about California and DO's?
California is a competitive state for residency placement, MDs have an advantage whether or not they go to a school that is in or out of state. And going to a nationally recognized MD school is going to help anyone that wants to be in California or any other competitive location. I have friends who went through the match who told me about their experiences.

If you had two students, a Harvard MD, and a California DO, who do you think the residency program is going to consider more strongly?
 

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California is a competitive state for residency placement, MDs have an advantage whether or not they go to a school that is in or out of state. And going to a nationally recognized MD school is going to help anyone that wants to be in California or any other competitive location. I have friends who went through the match who told me about their experiences.

If you had two students, a Harvard MD, and a California DO, who do you think the residency program is going to consider more strongly?
the one who has the better board scores and letters from rotations if all else is equal.
 
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Going to a California MD school will clearly increase one's chances of getting a residency in CA. This also holds true for out of state MD schools. California is not a DO friendly state.

Particularly if you go to a big name out of state MD school, I would not see any issues getting a residency in California.
But if you look at Touro and Western's match list...a lot of students match in CA...even though it may not be UCLA or USC but a least they still get to do residency in CA...

Honestly the OP isn't asking about CA MD ..they are asking about DO schools and residency...I'm just curious if you attend an MD school cause you seem to be advertising for them
 

cabinbuilder

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The OP is asking if you can get a job in California if you train elsewhere. The answer is YES. One of my friends who went to TCOM and did residency with me in Texas works in SanDiego. She got a California license and was hired. NO ISSUES. My other friend went to CCOM and works in California too.
 
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hallowmann

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But if you look at Touro and Western's match list...a lot of students match in CA...even though it may not be UCLA or USC but a least they still get to do residency in CA...

Honestly the OP isn't asking about CA MD ..they are asking about DO schools and residency...I'm just curious if you attend an MD school cause you seem to be advertising for them
Don't forget also that the majority of people going to CA med schools are either from CA (making it slightly easier to match there) and/or want to be in CA meaning they will be more likely to apply/prefer CA for the match. That easily explains why any CA school will have more people matching in CA than any other school. Unfortunately we don't have enough data to indicate exactly how many people who went to non-CA schools wanted to match in CA or how many people who went to CA schools wanted to match in CA and failed to do so.

Again though, its obvious going to school in an area close to where you want to match is beneficial, because it not only means more connections on rotations, but it also means more face time can be had with those involved in residencies in those areas.
 
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guylewis

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California is a competitive state for residency placement, MDs have an advantage whether or not they go to a school that is in or out of state. And going to a nationally recognized MD school is going to help anyone that wants to be in California or any other competitive location. I have friends who went through the match who told me about their experiences.

If you had two students, a Harvard MD, and a California DO, who do you think the residency program is going to consider more strongly?
the residency is going to pick the student who does well on their boards and who has a good reputation from their rotations at the hospital. believe it or not, there are terrible Harvard med students who do poorly on their boards. they are only in Harvard because their dad is a senator who donates profusely.

California is INCREDIBLY DO friendly...where do you get these "facts" of yours?

Most of Western DO graduates will be getting residencies in California. the same is true for Touro-CA grads. anyone can look these numbers up, it's public knowledge. please get your facts straight. seriously, do you just spend your day trolling the DO forums or do you legitimately want to become a DO? I'm gonna go with the former rather than the latter
 
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the residency is going to pick the student who does well on their boards and who has a good reputation from their rotations at the hospital. believe it or not, there are terrible Harvard med students who do poorly on their boards. they are only in Harvard because their dad is a senator who donates profusely.

California is INCREDIBLY DO friendly...where do you get these "facts" of yours?

Most of Western DO graduates will be getting residencies in California. the same is true for Touro-CA grads. anyone can look these numbers up, it's public knowledge. please get your facts straight. seriously, do you just spend your day trolling the DO forums or do you legitimately want to become a DO? I'm gonna go with the former rather than the latter
Can you name some university based residency programs that regularly take DOs in California? I know someone from undergrad who went to a well known research based medical school in the Midwest and he had no troubles finding residency positions at big university programs in California. I know quite a few DO students from California, if you want to do primary care, its not too hard to get a residency in CA. If you want to do ACGME Orthopedic Surgery, ENT, Radiology, it will be a very uphill battle as a DO.

If you compare California to Michigan, Michigan is very DO friendly, CA is not so much. Michigan is a very open state for Osteopathic Physicians.

That being said, even if you did a residency in another state, there is nothing stopping you from working in California or any other state.
 
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Can you name some university based residency programs that regularly take DOs in California? I know someone from undergrad who went to a well known research based medical school in the Midwest and he had no troubles finding residency positions at big university programs in California. I know quite a few DO students from California, if you want to do primary care, its not too hard to get a residency in CA. If you want to do ACGME Orthopedic Surgery, ENT, Radiology, it will be a very uphill battle as a DO.
That's true everywhere, you're acting like CA is a special case. Btw getting radiology isn't as hard as it once was. your argument was that CA wasn't DO friendly. look up the matches from Touro-CA and Western in order to show you evidence to the contrary. just see look up many DOs are practicing in CA and that's enough proof right there.
 
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That's true everywhere, you're acting like CA is a special case. Btw getting radiology isn't as hard as it once was. your argument was that CA wasn't DO friendly. look up the matches from Touro-CA and Western in order to show you evidence to the contrary. just see look up many DOs are practicing in CA and that's enough proof right there.
Even if you completed a residency in another state its not going to bar you from working in California or wherever else you want to work.
 

Spades455

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Don't forget also that the majority of people going to CA med schools are either from CA (making it slightly easier to match there) and/or want to be in CA meaning they will be more likely to apply/prefer CA for the match. That easily explains why any CA school will have more people matching in CA than any other school. Unfortunately we don't have enough data to indicate exactly how many people who went to non-CA schools wanted to match in CA or how many people who went to CA schools wanted to match in CA and failed to do so.

Again though, its obvious going to school in an area close to where you want to match is beneficial, because it not only means more connections on rotations, but it also means more face time can be had with those involved in residencies in those areas.
I have a question about this too since I am from Socal and applying in June. Of course Western is my top choice, but if I don't get into Western or Tuoro and have to go to an out of state DO school, is it very hard to get a residency in CA?
 

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I have a question about this too since I am from Socal and applying in June. Of course Western is my top choice, but if I don't get into Western or Tuoro and have to go to an out of state DO school, is it very hard to get a residency in CA?
Did you read this whole thread???
 

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the one who has the better board scores and letters from rotations if all else is equal.
In a fair world that would be the case. However, the world isn't fair. I was interviewing with MDs with board scores that were nearly a standard deviation below mine. Where you go to med school matters a lot when you apply for residency.
 

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I have a question about this too since I am from Socal and applying in June. Of course Western is my top choice, but if I don't get into Western or Tuoro and have to go to an out of state DO school, is it very hard to get a residency in CA?
See above. While it is most likely easier to get into a residency in CA coming from a CA med school, it is certainly not very hard to return to CA for residency. Every year my school which is almost all the way across the country has people matching in CA. I know many people who have done that, and it seems a bit easier for CA residents to return to CA for residency than OOS applicants (maybe because they apply almost exclusively for CA programs).
 
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Can you name some university based residency programs that regularly take DOs in California? I know someone from undergrad who went to a well known research based medical school in the Midwest and he had no troubles finding residency positions at big university programs in California. I know quite a few DO students from California, if you want to do primary care, its not too hard to get a residency in CA. If you want to do ACGME Orthopedic Surgery, ENT, Radiology, it will be a very uphill battle as a DO.

If you compare California to Michigan, Michigan is very DO friendly, CA is not so much. Michigan is a very open state for Osteopathic Physicians.

That being said, even if you did a residency in another state, there is nothing stopping you from working in California or any other state.
That's true everywhere, you're acting like CA is a special case. Btw getting radiology isn't as hard as it once was. your argument was that CA wasn't DO friendly. look up the matches from Touro-CA and Western in order to show you evidence to the contrary. just see look up many DOs are practicing in CA and that's enough proof right there.

Getting Radiology is not easy, also Orthopedics, Dermatology, ENT, Anesthesiology are competitive. I would be interested to know which ACGME university based programs in California have DOs in these programs.
 

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Getting Radiology is not easy, also Orthopedics, Dermatology, ENT, Anesthesiology are competitive. I would be interested to know which ACGME university based programs in California have DOs in these programs.

here is Western's match list from 2012 that i copied from a previous post. it lists which are ACGME and which are AOA. enjoy


Western University of Health Sciences (roughly 75% of the class)

Anesthesiology
Cleveland Clinic Foundation ACGME
Georgia Health Sciences University ACGME
State Univ of New York--Bufallo ACGME
Tufts Medical Center ACGME
University of Alabama, Birmingham ACGME
UC Davis ACGME
University of Florida ACGME
University of Texas, Houston ACGME
University of Texas, Houston ACGME

Emergency Med
Kern Medical Center ACGME
Maimonides Medical Center ACGME
Metro Health / Cleveland Clinic ACGME
University of Nevada - Las Vegas ACGME
University of Illinois ACGME
Arrowhead Regional Medical AOA
Arrowhead Regional Medical AOA
Botsford General Hospital AOA

Emergency Med/ Pediatrics
University of Arizona Tucson, AZ ACGME

Family Med/Emergency Med
McLaren - Oakland Pontiac, MI AOA

Family Med
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center ACGME
Brown ACGME
Cox Health ACGME
Califorina Hospital ACGME
Contra Costa Regional Medical Center - UC Davis ACGME
Contra Costa Regional Medical Center - UC Davis ACGME
Idaho State University ACGME
Kaiser Permanente - Fontana ACGME
Kaiser Permanente - Fontana ACGME
Kaiser Permanente - Fontana ACGME
Kaiser Permanente - Los Angeles ACGME
Kaiser Permanente - Orange County ACGME
Kaiser Permanente - Riverside ACGME
Kaiser Permanente - San Diego ACGME
Kaiser Permanente - San Diego ACGME
Long Beach Memorial Medical Center-UCI ACGME
Northridge Hospital Medical Center ACGME
Northridge Hospital Medical Center ACGME
Pomona Valley Medical Center ACGME
Pomona Valley Medical Center ACGME
Pomona Valley Medical Center ACGME
Sutter Med Ctr of Santa Rosa ACGME
UC Davis - Redding ACGME
UC Davis - Stockton ACGME
UC Irvine ACGME
UCLA - Harbor ACGME
UC San Diego ACGME
UCSF - Fresno ACGME
Univ Colorado HealthOne/Rose ACGME
University of Nevada-Las Vegas ACGME
White Memorial Medical Center ACGME
Whittier Family Medicine/ Tropical medicine track ACGME
NE IA ACGME
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center AOA
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center AOA
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center AOA
Chino Valley Medical Center AOA
Corvallis Family Medicine AOA
Downey Regional Medical Center AOA
Downey Regional Medical Center AOA
Downey Regional Medical Center AOA
East Pierce Family Medicine AOA
Pacific Hospital of Long Beach AOA
Providence Alaska Medical Center AOA
SIU/Memorial Hospital AOA

General Surgery
Dartmouth (Prelim) ACGME
Naval Medical Center Portsmouth ACGME/Mil
University of New Mexico ACGME
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center AOA
Detroit Medical Center AOA
Genesys Regional Medical Center AOA

Internal Med
Banner Good Samaritan ACGME
Indiana University ACGME
Kaiser Permanente - Los Angeles ACGME
Legacy Emanuel/Good Samaritan ACGME
Legacy Emanuel/Good Samaritan ACGME
Loma Linda University ACGME
Loma Linda University ACGME
Loma Linda University ACGME
Loma Linda University ACGME
Loyola University ACGME
Mount Sinai Medical Center ACGME
Santa Clara Valley Medical Center ACGME
Scripps Mercy Hospital ACGME
UCLA Olive View ACGME
UCLA Olive View ACGME
UCSF Alameda County Medical Center ACGME
UCSF Fresno ACGME
UCSF Fresno ACGME
UCSF Fresno ACGME
UCSF Fresno ACGME
University of Chicago NorthShore ACGME
White Memorial Medical Center ACGME
White Memorial Medical Center ACGME
Wilford Hall/Brooke Army Medical Centers ACGME/Mil
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center AOA
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center AOA
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center AOA
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center AOA
Danville Regional Medical Center AOA
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine AOA
Swedish Covenant Hospital AOA

Neurology
University of Arizona Medical Center ACGME
UC Irvine ACGME

Neurosurgery
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center AOA
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center AOA

OB/GYN
Naval Medical Center Portsmouth ACGME/Mil
St. Francis ACGME
UCSF Fresno ACGME
UCLA-Kern Medical Center ACGME
Henry Ford Wyandotte Hospital AOA
Mercy Health AOA

Ophthalmology
State Univ of New York at Buffalo ACGME

Orthopedic Surgery
Good Samaritan Regional Medical Center AOA
Riverside County Regional Medical Center AOA
Riverside County Regional Medical Center AOA

Pediatrics
CHLA ACGME
Kaiser Permanente - Sunset ACGME
Loma Linda University ACGME
Loma Linda Childrens ACGME
OHSU ACGME
University of Arizona ACGME
UCSF Fresno ACGME
UCSF Fresno ACGME
University of New Mexico ACGME
USC ACGME

PM&R
NUMC ACGME
SUNY Downstate ACGME
U Rochester/Strong Mem-NY ACGME
UCI ACGME/AOA
UCLA/West LA VA ACGME/AOA
UCLA/West LA VA ACGME/AOA

Psychiatry
Banner Good Samaritan ACGME
Loma Linda University ACGME
OHSU ACGME
State Univ of New York at Buffalo ACGME
UCSF Fresno ACGME
University of Hawaii ACGME
Good Samaritan Regional Medical Center AOA
Good Samaritan Regional Medical Center AOA
Larkin Medical Center AOA

Radiology
Loma Linda University ACGME
University of Missouri - Kansas City/St. Lukes Hospital ACGME
Wilford Hall/Brooke Army Medical Centers ACGME
Bryn Mawr Hospital ACGME
St. Barnabas Hospital AOA
St. Barnabas Hospital AOA

Traditional Year
Madigan Army Medical Center ACGME
Naval Medical Center Portsmouth ACGME/Mil
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center AOA
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center AOA
Danville Regional Medical Center AOA
Largo Medical Center AOA
St. John's Episcopal Hospital AOA

Urology
Mt Clemens Consortium/ MSUCOM AOA
UMDNJ AOA
 
Aug 14, 2013
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Pre-Medical
here is Western's match list from 2012 that i copied from a previous post. it lists which are ACGME and which are AOA. enjoy
I don't know whether that list is from the westernu site, but the 2013 one is here:

http://prospective.westernu.edu/assets/prospective/osteopathic/comp-potential-residency-sites.pdf

Your 2012 (hopefully accurate) list and the 2013 list are so vastly different that it becomes obvious match lists mean very little. Point is that there are a lot of ACGME & AOA residencies and your chances of getting into them probably depend more on your scores and less/not at all on being a DO.
 

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Jan 22, 2009
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Optho was a legacy? SDN claims DO's never match ACGME Optho.
 
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